Apogee GTZ

[eXa]

Now that gabe is back, maybe we can get a few hints about the new Apogee GTZ?

:D

Edit: forgot picture:
http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/images/products/apogee%20gtz/apogeeGTZ-x400.jpg

[silverphoenix]

Woah lol looks very decepticonish, i want pix of insides not a GTX that has a different cover.

[eXa]

I think its more than an esthetic change since its theire "new flagship". My guess is a finer diamond pin structure. Like going from vanilla apogee to apogee GT.

[IanY]

About time !

[eXa]

And hey, no alu this time it seemes.:up:

[IanY]

You see how far apart the barbs are ... the hard mount... he's going for top performance.

[systemviper]

i think it's bogus looking....

not my style

[gabe]

Now that gabe is back, maybe we can get a few hints about the new Apogee GTZ?

:D

Edit: forgot picture:
http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/images/products/apogee%20gtz/apogeeGTZ-x400.jpg

I will say only this: the Apogee GTZ only have two things in common with the GTX, it's name and it's function. Expect totally new stuff under the hood.

I cannot disclose anything else at this time, other than the fact that the product is really coming very soon. This is no vaporware. We have never done "coming soon" before, but I see that all my competition does, so what the heck..

[eXa]

Seemes as the spacing is about the same as on the GTX...

[eXa]

Totally new? so no diamond pin structure. Wow, now u got me really interrested! exactely what i was fishing for when i started this thread:D

[NaeKuh]

omg gabe is back with vengence!

:up:

this looks like a low restriction block.

[dafeeessh]

lol when i read the title i thought it was going to be a modded gtx, but this is way better. Can't wait!

[eXa]

I like low restriction....

[NaeKuh]

I like low restriction....

i prefer accelerators. :T

[eXa]

Hmm... maybe it has a stepped base too?

[Sparky]

At first I thought the thread title was a typo

I wouldn't call anything on restriction, practically impossible to do without seeing the innards. It probably isn't a bad guess on being lower restriction however.

[HotGore]

Must....know...the...insides.....

[twwen2]

omg gabe is back with vengence!

:up:

this looks like a low restriction block.

Hello boys!:yepp:

Swiftech is back in a big way :clap:. I can't wait for some testing and internal pics!

[Solidsnake666]

:eek: I drooled on my desk...

[lowfat]

Damn that thing is sexy!

[Pedalmonkey]

wooo, lets get someone to kick D-Teks ass!!!

[Bubbaxm2]

Wow that is nice!!

[silverphoenix]

ok now I have to postpone my purchase of a new block and stay with my GTX until i know what this can do.

approx eta gabe?

[Jimmer411]

Please be an updated MCW60! Please be an updated MCW60! I really like the polished delrin look that these new swiftech blocks have :D

[FuriousSalesman]

A copper top would be delicious

[philbrown23]

wow looks like I may have just found a replacement for my dtek V2 unless EK can come up with something new and cool.

[FallenCow]

Definitely like the looks of it, but if it's as different from the Apogee as you say it is, you should come up with a better name...

[NaeKuh]

Prediction:

Stepped base.
And Glass beaded Pin config, or zigzag matrix of some sort.

[silverphoenix]

Prediction:

Stepped base.
And Glass beaded Pin config, or zigzag matrix of some sort.

add on some Dark matter we got a winner!!!:D

but seriously I can't wait and I hope it's not just an update or slight change but to keep my geeky side interested some totally new design idea lol.

[Martinm210]

Nice!
Really glad to see some new blocks and very curious to see what the inside looks like..:D

[ThrustSSC]

Looks good! Seem like Swiftech got a wake up call :D

[aiya]

perfect timing! i'm planning on going back to water :D

whats the estimated price on this block? $65 like the FuzionV2?

[eXa]

Please be an updated MCW60! Please be an updated MCW60!

?

what do u mean?

[twwen2]

In addition to the GTZ, he is hoping that Siwftech also releases an updated MCW60. ;)

[MomijiTMO]

COOL.

I wonder what the new design will be?

[eXa]

Lol, maybe its pins like the 6000 series, just more of them.
Just like 5000series->apooge, 6000series-> apogee GTZ

:p:

[migueld]

Finally thumbscrews!! I can't remember how many times I've dropped those little nuts/spacers :rolleyes:

Ease of use FTW :up:

[MomijiTMO]

In addition to the GTZ, he is hoping that Siwftech also releases an updated MCW60. ;)
Does it really need to be updated? I mean it still performs well even if it isn't attractive looking. :p:

[eXa]

mcw 60 still uses the vanilla apogee base, just step the apogee GT base and u have an upgrade ;)

[Cptn Vortex]

That looks Awesome. I am also very glad to see the Thumbscrews. Those screws/spacers/plastic washers made me swear WAY too much..... I'm lovin the new look!!

[jonny_ftm]

Great to see Swiftech still in the game. I love their products quality.
However, Nehalem is coming in some 3 months. I don't see why someone already having any of the Apogee GT/GTX/Fusion or other new blocks should upgrade. Unless you have money to spend for just 1-2°C gain.

That can be said of course to all other new blocks getting out these times, not only Swiftech

When Nehalem is out, suerely there will be base plates out to get a compatible mount on new socket for current WB. But, there will be also many new blocks with a larger surface to cover the larger heatsink of Nehalem chips giving better performance.

Anyway, I know you're Xtreme, but my post is an advice for people having already a block and knowing the value of the money they earn ;)

Still impatient to see this block performing. The mounting mechanism looks much friendly also, especially for a tight heavily loaded case

[oerekum]

Looks promising! New things are always good.

[xTKxhom3r]

dang good thing you posted this i was about to buy a dtek!

[septim]

no eta yet... no test down yet... for those not really in a hurry this is good...

[Arni]

Mcw 30 should be updated :(

[MomijiTMO]

Yeah can we have some fins or pins on the base please :D

[71 (Bryan)]

God, i wish i hadnt bought my fuzion v2 =S

[BlueAqua]

Looks interesting. I think we all have a little love for Swiftech from the days when watercooling really started to catch on. It's good to see some excitement in their product line.

[IanY]

i think it's bogus looking....

not my style


Are you serious? You look at a block.. it doesn't look sexy in your eyes... who cares about whether it performs or not, right?

All a water block is for is to look good inside a case, right?

We have no performance figures. We have no idea what's inside the block. Yet, you've already come to the conclusion that you don't like how it looks on the outside, and therefore you will never buy it? :shrug:

[LogAn'sRun]

bah, that's his opinion just like yours is yours. he doesn't like it, point taken. 1 consumer doesn't mean the end of a company.

besides, if this continues we'll be back to the whole aesthetics vs performance issue that feels like the dead horse needs a couple more rounds with a well worn out stick.

It's a friday, let's raise a glass instead and not argue for once. . . skåååål!!

[Kayin]

hey, that dead horse insulted my rig. He was asking for it.

[K3nii]

nice to see a new block from swiftech :) good step moving away from the alu, would love to see the results and the insides

[ColonelCain]

I am now extremely eager to see the insides. Patience... Patience.. :yepp:

[Waterlogged]

God, i wish i hadnt bought my <insert newest block here>

:rofl::ROTF::rofl::ROTF::rofl::ROTF:

These kinds of posts always crack me up. They get even better in cases like this where not a single number of the blocks performance as been released yet, like that mythical .5°C is going to help your OC by 1MHZ.:rofl:

[YMAA]

That block looks real sexy. Love the hard mount like on the Fuzion v2.

[freakgeek1337]

Wow.:shocked: That block just dropped it likes it's hot! Let's just hope the performance delivers and has low restriction.

[migueld]

:rofl::ROTF::rofl::ROTF::rofl::ROTF:

These kinds of posts always crack me up. They get even better in cases like this where not a single number of the blocks performance as been released yet, like that mythical .5°C is going to help your OC by 1MHZ.:rofl:

True :rofl:

Honestly I don't think it'll be about performance with this block. I'm betting that it'll perform similar to the supreme and fuzion, so I think the appeal will come from something other than performance. Maybe it'll be ease of use, price, brand.

Some people unhappy with the fact that they can't use 1/2" compression fittings on their fuzion may want to switch to this block.

Competition among CPU water-blocks is huge, so every detail counts.

[Movieman]

It was tough but I kept my mouth shut about this one.
Heard about it a few days ago.. A little "birdie" told me..:rofl:
Now a question for you Gabe, looking at this, will it work on socket 771 like the Apogee GT's? I just see the one mount pattern or are my eyes not working properly?

[Chruschef]

True :rofl:

Honestly I don't think it'll be about performance with this block. I'm betting that it'll perform similar to the supreme and fuzion, so I think the appeal will come from something other than performance. Maybe it'll be ease of use, price, brand.

Some people unhappy with the fact that they can't use 1/2" compression fittings on their fuzion may want to switch to this block.

Competition among CPU water-blocks is huge, so every detail counts.

... Gabe did say it was going to be like nothing ever before.. So i'm going to say that its going to be an internal change.

[jonny_ftm]

On some setups, Swiftech blocks have a great advantage: low pressure drop compared to the Fuzion and most WB. On a single loop it doesn't matter, but on 3/8 ID and a multi blocks loop, getting this WB instead of others could be a good choice depending on your setup.

But, I also agree, that if you already have a good WB, no need to change now, especially if you know you're one of those Xtreme that'll get a Nehalem as soon as it is out.

Personally, I'm keeping my old Apogee GT in my current big 4 radiators project. I don't see any reason to change it. 3-5°C enhancement won't increase my current OC at all.

[systemviper]

Are you serious? You look at a block.. it doesn't look sexy in your eyes... who cares about whether it performs or not, right?

All a water block is for is to look good inside a case, right?

We have no performance figures. We have no idea what's inside the block. Yet, you've already come to the conclusion that you don't like how it looks on the outside, and therefore you will never buy it? :shrug:


How a block performs is paramount, the most important thing say with in a range of +/- 3 degrees
but since most blocks perform very close to the same in the upper class, which are the ones we're talking about, then YES it does come down to looks...... :up:


I don't like the black derlin blocks, they look industrial. when i think of sexy i think of blocks like the apogee with the copper top or even better the enzotech sapphire below...

http://www.frozencpu.com/images/products/main/ex-blc-369.jpg

or the new Koolance stuff...

http://www.virtual-hideout.net/reviews/Koolance_CPU_340_Block/cpu-340_p1.jpg


http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-65556269779593_2010_65229279


I am also a big fan of clear acrylic, because i like UV liquids.


XSPC-EdgeAcrylic
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/XSPC-EdgeAcrylic-1.jpg


EK_Supreme
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/EK_Waterblocks/EK_Supreme/images/ek_supreme_08.jpg


So that is the kind of stuff think i think is sexy


to each his own, but I do like the new mounting hardware on the swiftech block, looks much more solid!

PS, most of the stuff i use is swiftech, the MCW355, the radiators, I use a great Storm Rev2 and also a Apogee GT and GTX, the radbox, the resi's, plus I'm sure i am missing simething...
my main comment was i didn't like the look (except the mounts) I am tired of black Derlin blocks...that is just me...
but I am sure any new products from Swiftech are going to be great additions to the watercooling community...

Regards
Steve

[MomijiTMO]

Having seen an Edge in person now I no longer think it's cool. The acrylic on my mate's one wasn't perfect meaning that light was significantly distorted and everything appeared blurry. Looks like Swiffy, Enzotech and D-Tek for me.

[YMAA]

I like the look of the block *because* it's industrial-looking and not flashy. All the examples you listed above that were shiny metal or see-through acrylic are just noise...added flare that may not add anything to a modded rig. The GTZ is stealthy...it's like it appears out of nowhere to keep the CPU cool.

[MomijiTMO]

Hai, I like it. Only D-Tek have that industrial look and it's nice to have other options.

I'm eager to find out why it's different. Parallel channels for the quad cores?

[freakgeek1337]

If you guys stare into the pic of the Apogee GTZ you can see "GTZ" engraved into it.

[YMAA]

I've also heard that if you state at a girl's boobs long enough, you can see the inside of a jail cell.

[Movieman]

I've also heard that if you state at a girl's boobs long enough, you can see the inside of a jail cell.

Either that or have a suddenly deeply redened face with finger prints in it..
Or be suddenly be singing alto when you used to sing baritone..:rofl:

[YMAA]

Wasn't too bad for me, I went from bass to baritone. Pleasant change, to be honest.

[SiGfever]

The outside looks nice, time will tell about performance.

[systemviper]

Having seen an Edge in person now I no longer think it's cool. The acrylic on my mate's one wasn't perfect meaning that light was significantly distorted and everything appeared blurry. Looks like Swiffy, Enzotech and D-Tek for me.

It seems with the workmenship that people have complained about on the resi's and now from what you say about he Edge, they have
lost some of their luster and it's more of a "wait and see" on thier stuff.

[iandh]

Hai, I like it. Only D-Tek have that industrial look and it's nice to have other options.

I'm eager to find out why it's different. Parallel channels for the quad cores?

As long as it isn't cross drilled parallel channels with dimpled bottoms and an ultra thin base, I'll be happy... I'm working on something along those lines atm. :yepp:


I really do like the looks of this block better than both the Apogee GT and GTX. I may have to buy one to match my MCW60 (isn't that sad that I'm a parts manufacturer yet am too lazy to machine a single block for my own system? :rolleyes:)

[Jimmer411]

?

what do u mean?



I mean that upgrading the base to the same as the GTX and fixing the barb spacing would be a huge plus. Also making it a bit taller so that it clears ramsinks would be lovely as well.

[71 (Bryan)]

:rofl::ROTF::rofl::ROTF::rofl::ROTF:

These kinds of posts always crack me up. They get even better in cases like this where not a single number of the blocks performance as been released yet, like that mythical .5&#176;C is going to help your OC by 1MHZ.:rofl:

dude, all i meant was that it looks better than my (coming) fuzion, i dont know about the performancd, i couldnt care less if it would had performed slightly worse or slightly better, i just like the looks of it better than of the fuzion
dont need to flame me, thx for tha diss man, real nice :down:

[Justintoxicated]

Hai, I like it. Only D-Tek have that industrial look and it's nice to have other options.

I'm eager to find out why it's different. Parallel channels for the quad cores?

DD with brass top is as industrial looking as it gets :P

[Kayin]

As long as it isn't cross drilled parallel channels with dimpled bottoms and an ultra thin base, I'll be happy... I'm working on something along those lines atm. :yepp:


I really do like the looks of this block better than both the Apogee GT and GTX. I may have to buy one to match my MCW60 (isn't that sad that I'm a parts manufacturer yet am too lazy to machine a single block for my own system? :rolleyes:)

Is that a hint..?

[disruptfam]

HARD MOUNT FTW

Gabe it's fantastic to see swiftech coming out with some new stuff.I'am very excited!!

Looking forward to a updated mcw60 :) maybe?

[NaeKuh]

Having seen an Edge in person now I no longer think it's cool. The acrylic on my mate's one wasn't perfect meaning that light was significantly distorted and everything appeared blurry. Looks like Swiffy, Enzotech and D-Tek for me.

you serious?

you know what, im boycotting XSPC after reading this. Now i need to go back to that skulltrail board and tell her to forget the xspc.

The block reported by martin performs so good, but lately XSPC's QoC is run by a bunch of monkeys getting high off guava juice.

[systemviper]

you serious?

you know what, im boycotting XSPC after reading this. Now i need to go back to that skulltrail board and tell her to forget the xspc.

The block reported by martin performs so good, but lately XSPC's QoC is run by a bunch of monkeys getting high off guava juice.

yea, they seem to be getting worse not better..

[MomijiTMO]

you serious?

you know what, im boycotting XSPC after reading this. Now i need to go back to that skulltrail board and tell her to forget the xspc.

The block reported by martin performs so good, but lately XSPC's QoC is run by a bunch of monkeys getting high off guava juice.

Yeah :(. I wonder if anyone at OCAU will have issues with them as Flabbergast is getting their stock soon. My friend ordered his from the UK [along with other stuff]. I think he is mad.

[twwen2]

I've only got the XSPC DDC top and while the machining isn't great, it's not too bad.

[Lagaaja]

Now that's sexy. It seems a little light-weight player, but I personally hope we'll see a new champ here :)

[dnb#]

damn, the new block looks nice, the old one with a copper top is better though. I always liked swiftech's stuff. Does anyone have a clue if there will be another version with an copper top too on this GTZ? I would love to see new design!

[Martinm210]

On some setups, Swiftech blocks have a great advantage: low pressure drop compared to the Fuzion and most WB. .

Not better pressure drop than a stock fuzion, although it's getting pretty close to the newer Fuzion V2. Actually most of the center inlet types will have lower restriction because you split the flow and reduce the flow rate over the pins compared to a side to side or corner to corner flow path like the apogee series. There are many blocks with lower restriction though, DD MC-TDX, XSPC Edge Acrylic, Fuzion V1 stock, and I think the Fuzion V2 Stock.

Once you start adding nozzles to the Fuzions or have a block with nozzles like the EK Supreme, or AC DI, that's when restriction really becomes high.

Anyhow flow rate and restriction are not that important, I'd be much more interested in thermal performance.

That we don't know, heck we don't even know what it looks like internally, so we don't know anyhthing other than it's a new product.:shrug:

[Waterlogged]

dude, all i meant was that it looks better than my (coming) fuzion, i dont know about the performancd, i couldnt care less if it would had performed slightly worse or slightly better, i just like the looks of it better than of the fuzion
dont need to flame me, thx for tha diss man, real nice :down:

Flame? You consider that a flame?.......meh, I'd better stop there before I get in trouble again. :rolleyes:

Point is/was, someone always posts almost those exact words every time a new block is released shortly after another.

[71 (Bryan)]

well maybe not a flame but still bra, wasnt cool on your part

[Movieman]

Flame? You consider that a flame?.......meh, I'd better stop there before I get in trouble again. :rolleyes:

Point is/was, someone always posts almost those exact words every time a new block is released shortly after another.


well maybe not a flame but still bra, wasnt cool on your part

Ok, smile, shake hands and say to one another that perhaps a poor choice of words and lets get back to deciding who is going to go out, kidnap Gabe and tickle him till he posts a pick of the insides!:D

[SeanB]

chill foo's its water time.

[Waterlogged]

Ok, smile, shake hands and say to one another that perhaps a poor choice of words and lets get back to deciding who is going to go out, kidnap Gabe and tickle him till he posts a pick of the insides!:D

Sorry, guess my amusement didn't come through in my second post. Move along, nothing to see here.:wasntme:


well maybe not a flame but still bra, wasnt cool on your part

Sorry, I removed your name from the quote and tried to make it as general as possible without targeting anyone in particular. Didn't realize you were so sensitive.

btw, I'm not your bra...or bro, I'm just a PITA.

[Movieman]

Sorry, guess my amusement didn't come through in my second post. Move along, nothing to see here.:wasntme:

No problem, just trying to fulfill my chosen role in life as peacemaker.;)

[fibua]

When this Block will be available on retailer.

[Movieman]

When this Block will be available on retailer.

My guess is 2-3 weeks..:wasntme:

[Mankz_91]

No offence intended to Gabe, but I think it looks naff and horrible. I don't like all of the black screws etc. and I especially don't like the black top. I think it would look alot better if the black top was silver coloured, and you kept the black background to the logo.

[iandh]

Kayin;3134300']Is that a hint..?

Posssibly. :shrug:

Probably?

[Giannis86]

im liking the looks of it but indeed the black top doesnt match nicely..there is too much black in the equation..id love to see a copper top for it..that would look amazing

[nikhsub1]

Man there are too many interested in the looks of things. I could give a rat's ass what something looks like as long as it performs (in this case, outperforms). My opinion is that the GTX was a dog (sales wise) because Swiftech was too interested in looks and used aluminum to achieve that goal. Looks are a far second place in my book.

[eXa]

Idd. I wouldnt even thouch the GTX with a 10foot pole.....

[jonny_ftm]

Not better pressure drop than a stock fuzion, although it's getting pretty close to the newer Fuzion V2. Actually most of the center inlet types will have lower restriction because you split the flow and reduce the flow rate over the pins compared to a side to side or corner to corner flow path like the apogee series. There are many blocks with lower restriction though, DD MC-TDX, XSPC Edge Acrylic, Fuzion V1 stock, and I think the Fuzion V2 Stock.


I looked are your tests, you're right, thanks for the clarification indeed :)

[gabe]

Anyhow flow rate and restriction are not that important, I'd be much more interested in thermal performance.

well said.


That we don't know, heck we don't even know what it looks like internally, so we don't know anyhthing other than it's a new product.:shrug:


that could be fixed [Edit: arranged]

[jonny_ftm]

That we don't know, heck we don't even know what it looks like internally, so we don't know anyhthing other than it's a new product.:shrug:



that could be fixed

You forgot to insert the picture, I think :D

[Movieman]

that could be fixed

I think I need to call Jupiler
( If you haven't seen a pic of him think of Arrrrrnold only younger and not quite as "cut")
He'll do the holding, I'll do the tickling..
We'll get the pics out of you!:rofl:

[gabe]

No offence intended to Gabe, but I think it looks naff and horrible. I don't like all of the black screws etc. and I especially don't like the black top. I think it would look alot better if the black top was silver coloured, and you kept the black background to the logo.

Tastes and colors never offend me. I am only glad you are the only one who does't - so far, but I am sure there will be others ;)

Irrespective, as it has been said very wisely in this thread, only performance will appeal to most XS members. I happen to like the looks it if matters any (I didn't design it, Stephen did) quite a bit. It looks like it means business, which it does.

[IanY]

For all I care, it could be lime green and purple, and shaped like my dog's turd. Makes no difference to me.

[aspire.comptech]

For all I care, it could be lime green and purple, and shaped like my dog's turd. Makes no difference to me.

I'm down as long as it doesn't smell like a dogs turd... :yepp:

[IanY]

I'm down as long as it doesn't smell like a dogs turd... :yepp:

Smell like dog's turd? That's fine with me. The case is covered up, so I don't smell it and I don't care :)

[SiGfever]

well said.




that could be fixed [Edit: arranged]
Now you are talking, send one to Martin. :up:

[nikhsub1]

I didn't design it, Stephen did
Then we know it will outperform anything prior to this from Swiftech.

[IanY]

Ouch! Can we all just get along?

[Giannis86]

I'd prefer they looked nice as the GTZ does in the pics. I don't know, to me there's no "Water Cooling High Ground" to be taken by not having things look good. It's just when performance is sacrificed for looks that I detest. I don't think it's very hard to have it both ways and design a build with components that look good for a over all smooth and sharp look. The more I do this stuff, the more I appreciate good looking gear, and a build that reflects pride of ownership. With a lot of the new gear coming out, pretty easy to have both great performance and looks.

andyc

i totally agree

anyway when can we see the internal pics gabe?:D:D:D

[Mankz_91]

Tastes and colors never offend me. I am only glad you are the only one who does't - so far, but I am sure there will be others ;)

Irrespective, as it has been said very wisely in this thread, only performance will appeal to most XS members. I happen to like the looks it if matters any (I didn't design it, Stephen did) quite a bit. It looks like it means business, which it does.

I understand where you are coming from as a company, so you have to appeal to the mass-market, so good luck!

And at the end of the day, it its an awesome block, I might just have to make a new top for it :up:

[nikhsub1]

Ouch! Can we all just get along?
I guess that came out wrong (what else is new)... I meant it as a testament to Stephen, not a dig on Gabe or Swiftech.

[Bojamijams]

Nobody mentioned the awesomeness of being able to fit compression fittings? (At least with that spacing it looks like it should be able to)

[IanY]

I guess that came out wrong (what else is new)... I meant it as a testament to Stephen, not a dig on Gabe or Swiftech.

Understood. Thanks for clarifying.

My mistake.

[Logos]

so I guess the GTX will be discontinued right?
(sorry if this has been answered already, I haven't read all the posts in this thread)

[NaeKuh]

Ouch! Can we all just get along?

:rofl:

Iany you dont understand how much of a oxymoron this is coming from you.

Almost like asking the taliban, hey can we all live the enlighten way of buddah?

[Eddie3dfx]

You know what I don't like about it, not the block, the mount.
I think the outside mount should be a really nice piece of aluminum or muted steel, as well as flat.
The bevel makes it look weird in the picture.

[gabe]

so I guess the GTX will be discontinued right?
(sorry if this has been answered already, I haven't read all the posts in this thread)

yes, we only have very few left though and they'll go on sale as soon as the GTZ starts shipping, ETA <2 weeks

[iandh]

Any guess on when we get to see the guts?

[MpG]

You know what I don't like about it, not the block, the mount.
I think the outside mount should be a really nice piece of aluminum or muted steel, as well as flat.
The bevel makes it look weird in the picture.
The plate is probably curved for added rigidity - always a plus.

[IanY]

:rofl:

Iany you dont understand how much of a oxymoron this is coming from you.

Almost like asking the taliban, hey can we all live the enlighten way of buddah?


The Taliban still must protect Brothere Osama from the diss :ROTF:

The enlightened way of the buddah is cool as long as there's continued access to the chix :rofl:

[Sparky]

Man there are too many interested in the looks of things. I could give a rat's ass what something looks like as long as it performs (in this case, outperforms). My opinion is that the GTX was a dog (sales wise) because Swiftech was too interested in looks and used aluminum to achieve that goal. Looks are a far second place in my book.

Like I saw it said on here someplace, if a dog turd would cool a CPU better than any block on the market, it would be used :rofl:

[gabe]

Like I saw it said on here someplace, if a dog turd would cool a CPU better than any block on the market, it would be used :rofl:

Ok, then I'll change the GTZ description on the site [edited] accordingly.

[IanY]

hahahahaha

[lyl]

aww gabe, that edit wasnt necessary... who cares about PR anyway :P

[Sylv]

Thanks for popping by Gabe, it looks pretty sweet to me. Would love to add this to my 2x MCW60's and 2x MCW30's. Now all that's left is for Martin to get his hands on one :).

[twwen2]

I don't know, to me there's no "Water Cooling High Ground" to be taken by not having things look good. It's just when performance is sacrificed for looks that I detest. I don't think it's very hard to have it both ways and design a build with components that look good for a over all smooth and sharp look. The more I do this stuff, the more I appreciate good looking gear, and a build that reflects pride of ownership. With a lot of the new gear coming out, pretty easy to have both great performance and looks.


Yup! We like to have our cake and eat it too.:rofl: If the good looking components perform well, then everyone wins :yepp:

[Martinm210]

Gabe you have a PM and an email.
I'd be happy to test it with the other blocks. I'm about ready to take a break from the radiator testing so I'm getting ready to start back in on the CPU block testing pretty soon.
If not, no problem...

[majestik]

It's almost tuesday!

[twwen2]

It's almost tuesday!

It's tuesday down here...;):D

[NaeKuh]

Martin this test has priority over my stepped cuplex.

your results will dictate if i buy it or not. :rofl:


And once again thank you for your work martin :up:

[majestik]

/cricket

[YMAA]

Like I saw it said on here someplace, if a dog turd would cool a CPU better than any block on the market, it would be used :rofl:

I draw the line at dog crap. Even if it could cool better, the smell would make the computer so unusable I'd never sit there long enough to look at the temps.

[ThrustSSC]

Gabe you have a PM and an email.
I'd be happy to test it with the other blocks. I'm about ready to take a break from the radiator testing so I'm getting ready to start back in on the CPU block testing pretty soon.
If not, no problem...

Martin, any chance you will test the D5? it seems in accurate in your flow meter :)

[evil-98]

Martin, any chance you will test the D5? it seems in accurate in your flow meter :)

have you read this test? http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=170217

[orclev]

Seeing as people are using this as a chance to bring up preferences (and seeing as various manufacturers are reading this) thought I'd mention my preferences (although as mentioned by several others, performance counts first, and then you can shop around for good looks). Personally, I think acrylic is waaaay overdone, but that's mostly because I want to do something more reserved in my builds (I do have to look at them regularly after all), so I rather not have the guts of my computer looking like something from a the Vegas strip. To a certain extent just sticking to two or three predominate colors goes a long way towards achieving that, but eliminating excessive acrylic helps a lot as well. In the case of my latest build I opted for clear tubing with acetel blocks. Had I opted for acrylic blocks I probably would have gone with black tubing (or some other solid color) just to mute the overall look of the system.

Which brings me to why I'm even mentioning it in this thread. I really like the way EK releases 2 versions of their blocks, one with a clear acrylic top, and one with a solid black acetel top. It gives the builder a way to fine tune the look of the system. That said I understand that in some cases it's not economically feasible to have multiple versions of essentially the same block, but even selling an alternative replacement top to a particular block can go a long way towards getting not just the performance you want, but the looks you want as well.

Really anxious to see the guts of this new block, as well as some performance metrics, but as far as looks go, it's not bad. Not the best looking block I've ever seen, but definitely not the worst either. For me personally, if I was going to change it, I'd probably replace the mounting brackets with something flat black, but over all I'd be happy with it in my case as is (assuming it performs well anyway).

[Movieman]

The mental image just hit my funny bone.
I can see it now, you click on Swiftechs site and the first thing that greets you is this:
Welcome!
Swiftech is proud to release our new waterblock.
The DT1.. Better performance, formed from one solid block of 100% pure copper to satisfy Naekuh!
Try the new DT1 or Dog Turd as we call it!:up:

[Utnorris]

LOL! :rofl:

[Xilikon]

:rofl: That's a good one...

[philbrown23]

will there be a TEC version of this block to? that would be killer!

[Martinm210]

Martin, any chance you will test the D5? it seems in accurate in your flow meter :)

I retested it a few weeks ago, I just need to create the new trendlines and plug it in. It's still not as strong as the DDCs with tops, but it may be a little better than the curve that's currently in there.

Ok, back on topic with the GTZ..

[majestik]

Ok, back on topic with the GTZ..
go on

[Martinm210]

go on

Sorry guys, I turned down the offer on this sample. I had to take a good look at what I've got piled up around me from previous sample providers, and I've still got 12 weeks worth of samples and reviews to work through. It's just not fair to the previous sample providers to drop what's already been submitted..

Anyhow, you guys will have to sort this one out. I'm not taking any new samples until I get caught up with what I have and that'll be several months down the road.

My vote for best tester on this forum goes to Niksub1..:up:

He's the pioneer of the 5 mount method I've been following anyhow which I agree 100% is a must do for any worthwhile test results (Accuracy better than 2 degrees).

[Xilikon]

Wise move on your part, Martin :)

I agree Nihksub1 would be the right guy to do a proper testing :up:

[orclev]

You know, it's kind of funny, as I was reading your last post (martin) the first thought through my head was "Man, I would love to have piles of stuff from manufacturers to play with", which was followed shortly by "God I bet that gets mind numbing really fast". I figure it's probably a lot like video game testing, sure it sounds like a good idea at first, but when you're sitting there doing the same thing again for the 9,000 time in the last week it suddenly seems like a lot less fun. There's also the effect I've seen first hand where when something goes from a hobby to work you suddenly find you don't enjoy doing it nearly as much as you used to.

Edit: Forgot to say, you do really great work Martin, and I'm sure we all understand that you're only one guy and you can only do so much.

[Martinm210]

You know, it's kind of funny, as I was reading your last post (martin) the first thought through my head was "Man, I would love to have piles of stuff from manufacturers to play with", which was followed shortly by "God I bet that gets mind numbing really fast". I figure it's probably a lot like video game testing, sure it sounds like a good idea at first, but when you're sitting there doing the same thing again for the 9,000 time in the last week it suddenly seems like a lot less fun. There's also the effect I've seen first hand where when something goes from a hobby to work you suddenly find you don't enjoy doing it nearly as much as you used to.

Edit: Forgot to say, you do really great work Martin, and I'm sure we all understand that you're only one guy and you can only do so much.


Yeah it was fun at first, but I'm at the point now where it's become work.

Worst part is, I have a good job. I could go into work and net $30+/hr on overtime. Good testing on something like a radiator takes nearly 15 hours of testing. I could buy alot of radiators for that amount of time.:( I only do it because I enjoy helping people on these forums and I have fun when I'm not overly booked, but I have to take a step back now and then and get a reality check. I've got too much on the plate right now and have to back off for a while.

[nikhsub1]

Martin, it is very hard for people to understand... heck, I've only tested BLOCKS and I can barely find the time. You are doing fans, rads, fittings, blocks, pumps etc, etc etc. People don't realize that it takes me about 12 hours to test one block with 5 mounts... If I make $100/hour you can see how it adds up... Manufacturers should really be PAYING people like you to independently test and validate data - of course this data would not be public but you would be PAID. This is what BillA tried to do at one time but never succeeded at it. I mean for a mfgr to pay a few hundred dollars for you to test and validate seems to be chump change.

/rant off

[Eddie3dfx]

Yeah it was fun at first, but I'm at the point now where it's become work.

Worst part is, I have a good job. I could go into work and net $30+/hr on overtime. Good testing on something like a radiator takes nearly 15 hours of testing. I could buy alot of radiators for that amount of time.:( I only do it because I enjoy helping people on these forums and I have fun when I'm not overly booked, but I have to take a step back now and then and get a reality check. I've got too much on the plate right now and have to back off for a while.

Take a break. Once it turns into work, it's not fun anymore. Work and enjoy life and then when you get that itch to test, go back and do a few rounds.

[nikhsub1]

Wise move on your part, Martin :)

I agree Nihksub1 would be the right guy to do a proper testing :up:
Haha thanks for the kind words but Swiftech won't be sending me anything to test anytime soon... For some reason Gabe thinks I'm a 'Swiftech hater' which for the record I am not. I realize I can be a bit harsh and off the cuff but I have no hate or ill will toward ANY one or ANY mfgr.

[ThrustSSC]

Honestly martin, I think you need to charge companies for testing their products. It will make testing a lot more fun and motivating :).

[Xilikon]

Haha thanks for the kind words but Swiftech won't be sending me anything to test anytime soon... For some reason Gabe thinks I'm a 'Swiftech hater' which for the record I am not. I realize I can be a bit harsh and off the cuff but I have no hate or ill will toward ANY one or ANY mfgr.

It's their loss, not yours ;) If Martin tell you can do that and Gabe ignore it, he is alienating a big market :ROTF:

[jonny_ftm]

I was sticking to my GT. Now, I think I'll stick to my Q6600. So, I need a new WB :D

With Martin's dropping the tests, it'll take weeks and weeks before we see any valid tests of this yet unreleased WB.

I'm one going to Enzotech Rev.A full copper new WB. The previous version is 1.5°C close to the EK Supreme, yet keeping a great flow. This Rev.A should solve the acrylic haters problem and at least, it is a sure value.

I must say, that for me, Martin's tests are of a major importance before to buy

Good luck Martin with your job and WB testing hobby, not easy to manage both :clap:

[HotGore]

Haha thanks for the kind words but Swiftech won't be sending me anything to test anytime soon... For some reason Gabe thinks I'm a 'Swiftech hater' which for the record I am not. I realize I can be a bit harsh and off the cuff but I have no hate or ill will toward ANY one or ANY mfgr.

That means you will have to buy it. Ugh the HORROR! :p:

[Martinm210]

Expecting joe public to figure it out on their own seems a bit odd to me.:shrug:
That's like saying you need to buy a car to test and see what sort of gas mileage you can expect before you decide if it's the right car for you....:shakes:

I'm all for seeing even more manufacturer provided performance information, there's already a good amount going up, there's just not much detail on how it was determined..:up:

[LinusTech]

So are you guys saying you'd like to see the manufacturers start publishing comparative data if we don't have enough 3rd party testers out there?

[Martinm210]

So are you guys saying you'd like to see the manufacturers start publishing comparative data if we don't have enough 3rd party testers out there?

I would..:up:

There's always going to be a place for 3rd party testing, but why not start with at least something performance related in the specs.

I would really appreciate if manufacturers would post at least pressure drop and some sort of c/w data. It doesn't even have to be comparative to be worthwhile. To me it only represents a good posotive image that the product is designed around performance (Not just for aesthetics) and they are willing to back that up with real scientific performance data. Even if many people don't understand it, it's still there saying "Hey, this is a performance product, here is how restrictive it is, and here is how thermally efficient it is".

I like it. I've always really appreciated the vendors that already do that..:up:

The only issue I have with c/w curves is there's never any explanation with how that c/w was developed and so it generally becomes something you can't really use for anything more than understanding how sensetive it is to flow rate, etc. Preferrably, there would be some sort of testing specification linked to that details out what the c/w value represents and how the testing was conducted and with what equipment, etc..:yepp:

[AllAgainstPaul]

/rant mode enable
It wouldn't matter if it was martin or someone who no-one ever heard of, if a 3rd party starts making manufactures pay them to test and review a product then their credibility will be questioned by the people. I'm not implying that martin or anyone else would fix the data but because money exchanges hands it would always be under scrutiny. Even if the 3rd party sets a fixed rate for each review the manufactures who don't send their products to the 3rd party may claim that they were reviewed unfairly.
/rant_mode disable

Now for a question: When testing a block's thermal capabilities, Coolant temperatures are inversely related to flow and pressure. Is there any way to graph a chart in three dimensions that show flow (X) and pressure (Z) are on the ground plane and thermal resistance (Y) be vertical? It's not entirely practical because of the difficulty reading data points but it would be visually impressive and people could see which is better to have, a loop with higher flow or higher pressure.

[gojirasan]

It's sad news, but Martin has already contributed so much. Let him have his life back. At least for a while. Now getting back on topic... any news on the possibility of a unisink for either the GTX280 or the HD4870x2? Or on whether there will be mounts compatible with the HD4870x2? I've vowed to stay away from those falling copper ramsinks approximately until hell freezes over.

[Xilikon]

It's sad news, but Martin has already contributed so much. Let him have his life back. At least for a while. Now getting back on topic... any news on the possibility of a unisink for either the GTX280 or the HD4870x2? Or on whether there will be mounts compatible with the HD4870x2? I've vowed to stay away from those falling copper ramsinks approximately until hell freezes over.

You are in the wrong thread anyway but let me reply : <D-Tek released a uni-sink for the GTX 200 series cards to be used with the Fuzion GPU v2. I have one on hand and it's a damn nice piece. Expect pictures during the weekend.

[Bojamijams]

I'm just posting here to give thanks to Martin for all his work. It was absolutely invaluable to me selecting the components for my first WC build.

So.. Thank you Martin!

[nikhsub1]

/rant mode enable
It wouldn't matter if it was martin or someone who no-one ever heard of, if a 3rd party starts making manufactures pay them to test and review a product then their credibility will be questioned by the people. I'm not implying that martin or anyone else would fix the data but because money exchanges hands it would always be under scrutiny. Even if the 3rd party sets a fixed rate for each review the manufactures who don't send their products to the 3rd party may claim that they were reviewed unfairly.
/rant_mode disable
Clearly you did not understand what I said/meant. I do not mean that mfgrs PAY for a review, that would be stupid. Lets say mfgr 'Widget' has a new block that they are developing. They have tested the thing in house but would like some 3rd party testing (note not a REVIEW) that would not be made public. They would also like some feedback on the block. This is what I believe mfgr's should pay for. I have actually done this more than once for a couple of different mfgrs and got bubkus in return. What they got in return was a set of tools to improve their product. This data that I collected via testing WAS NEVER MADE PUBLIC and was only available to the mfgr. Call me crazy but I for one and finished doing other people's R&D for FREE.

[gojirasan]

nvm

[gillbot]

I don't see it on the swiftech site yet! :(

[gabe]

I don't see it on the swiftech site yet! :(

Release is planed on or before 7/31

[gillbot]

Release is planed on or before 7/31

:up:

[Movieman]

Release is planed on or before 7/31

and here I was just about to post this:

Image of Gabe slaving away 7 days a week saying:
" Those bastages at XS won't even let me sleep!":rofl:

[majestik]

Can't wait to see what it can do!

[SiGfever]

:soap:

I for one see nothing wrong with "Third Party" testers being paid to test a product and report their findings. Independent testing is a great way to show data that the public can believe. People such as nikhsub1, Martinm210, and mcoffey are trusted on this forum and will give factual data on every test.

Their time is as valuable as anyone else's and should be compensated. And to you guys, thanks for all your hard work and your commitment to the science. :clap: :clap:

<gets off soap box>

[Mekrel]

:soap:

I for one see nothing wrong with "Third Party" testers being paid to test a product and report their findings. Independent testing is a great way to show data that the public can believe. People such as nikhsub1, Martinm210, and mcoffey are trusted on this forum and will give factual data on every test.

Their time is as valuable as anyone else's and should be compensated. And to you guys, thanks for all your hard work and your commitment to the science. :clap: :clap:

<gets off soap box>


Alright guys, I think it goes without saying that testing just sucks. You get people trying to influence you from all angles

That quote is from a well known, trusted tester. I believe the tests he did from which the quote refers was done by him for free (note the words, I believe).

If people try to influence someones tests when all they've done is provide blocks, it doesn't take a scientist to wonder what could happen if they're paying someone.

Would you pay someone to test your product, yet sit there and still hand over the cash if that very test would actually produce negative PR?

[ThrustSSC]

That quote is from a well known, trusted tester. I believe the tests he did from which the quote refers was done by him for free (note the words, I believe).

If people try to influence someones tests when all they've done is provide blocks, it doesn't take a scientist to wonder what could happen if they're paying someone.

Would you pay someone to test your product, yet sit there and still hand over the cash if that very test would actually produce negative PR?

There is a diffrence from getting money for review, which in my opinion is wrong, and getting money for testing.

[HESmelaugh]

I see the influencing problem too. Our sponsors (who don't pay us but provide some samples) are always all over us when a review includes negative aspects. They try to get us to rephrase, omit or not publish a review. Some sponsors are better than others, of course, but I bet they'd put piles of pressure on the reviewers, if they paid them...

[nikhsub1]

That quote is from a well known, trusted tester. I believe the tests he did from which the quote refers was done by him for free (note the words, I believe).

If people try to influence someones tests when all they've done is provide blocks, it doesn't take a scientist to wonder what could happen if they're paying someone.

Would you pay someone to test your product, yet sit there and still hand over the cash if that very test would actually produce negative PR?
No need to hide, I said that. What you are missing is that my 'tests' were to be made PUBLIC. What I was saying about being paid was obviously misunderstood completely. Maybe if we take the word 'testing' out if it, it will confuse less. If a person was contacted (say me or Martin) to validate results by a manufacturer and give unbiased opinion and ideas what is that worth to said manufacturer? I have done such things and never made my findings public. Again, manufacturers should NEVER pay for a review, and what I was suggesting they do pay for would be kept absolutely 100% private and would not be a review for anyone to see.

[gillbot]

Gabe, send me a GTZ for review. :D

[gabe]

:soap:

I for one see nothing wrong with "Third Party" testers being paid to test a product and report their findings. Independent testing is a great way to show data that the public can believe. People such as nikhsub1, Martinm210, and mcoffey are trusted on this forum and will give factual data on every test.

Their time is as valuable as anyone else's and should be compensated. And to you guys, thanks for all your hard work and your commitment to the science. :clap: :clap:

<gets off soap box>

The charter of a tester/reviewer is to serve the public; since the public is the beneficiary of this work, the public should compensate the reviewer for his work.

[mpower1001]

Gabe you have a PM and an email.
I'd be happy to test it with the other blocks. I'm about ready to take a break from the radiator testing so I'm getting ready to start back in on the CPU block testing pretty soon.
If not, no problem...


Can't wait to see these results...Thanks Martin for all your hard work.

[Nickel020]

The charter of a tester/reviewer is to serve the public; since the public is the beneficiary of this work, the public should compensate the reviewer for his work.

That's not entirely true, if you have a good product, and people can't tell how good it is, it's in your interest to have it reviewed. I mean that's the whole point of sending out review samples.
And as for the public compensating, it's more like the manufacturers compensating, because they're the ones paying for the ads that are needed to keep magazines and websites going.

[gabe]

That's not entirely true, if you have a good product, and people can't tell how good it is, it's in your interest to have it reviewed. I mean that's the whole point of sending out review samples.
And as for the public compensating, it's more like the manufacturers compensating, because they're the ones paying for the ads that are needed to keep magazines and websites going.

It is ENTIRELY true in context. Please read my post again: I am referring to the charter or mission if you will of a reviewer, not that of a manufacturer.

As to advertising it reflects the right of the Media to conduct a business which serves their own interest. Properly managed Media totally separate the adversiting activity from the product testing activity in order to prevent/alleviate/reduce the conflicts of interest. Sadly such conflicts still exist and abuse do take place in my opinion and experience. It then becomes a necessity for the public to exercise scrutiny in patronizing said media.

In an ideal world, and in my opinion, impartial product testing should be entirely sponsored by the Public.

[SiGfever]

The charter of a tester/reviewer is to serve the public; since the public is the beneficiary of this work, the public should compensate the reviewer for his work.

I guess you do like Free testing from trusted people, who wouldn't? :shrug: :)

[IanY]

I know what my stance would be if I were a manufacturer... caveat emptor. That'll probably why I would have no business :)

[gabe]

I guess you do like Free testing from trusted people, who wouldn't? :shrug: :)

Of course I do, when it is thorough, accurate, and unbiaised.

But if your remark intends to infer that I advocate the concept outlined earlier for self interest, then you are mistaken in fact it is exactly the opposite. I advocate such concept because it is one of the foundations of human society. The beneficiary of a good or service should be paying for such. In this case, an independant agent or representative of the public is conducting tests to help the public decide whether a product is worth using. Isn't it natural that the public should be compensating that person for these services? I thought really long and hard on that topic and to be completely honest, my first reaction when I read these posts was to say that I wouldn't mind paying for product validation, but then I realized that this would be advocating something that is fundamentally flawed. So I changed my comments 180 degrees.

[silverphoenix]

Of course I do, when it is thorough, accurate, and unbiaised.

But if your remark intends to infer that I advocate the concept outlined earlier for self interest, then you are mistaken in fact it is exactly the opposite. I advocate such concept because it is one of the foundations of human society. The beneficiary of a good or service should be paying for such. In this case, an independant agent or representative of the public is conducting tests to help the public decide whether a product is worth using. Isn't it natural that the public should be compensating that person for these services? I thought really long and hard on that topic and to be completely honest, my first reaction when I read these posts was to say that I wouldn't mind paying for product validation, but then I realized that this would be advocating something that is fundamentally flawed. So I changed my comments 180 degrees.


so we can start a "martin, nik, etc" testing fund. If it wasn't taking so much of martin's time I would send every block I get to him and pay postage.

[Movieman]

@ Gabe;
This is an interesting discussion in the theoretical but then there is the reality.
No one wants to write a negative review ever.
I have done three. The first was with your H20-220 kit.
You know how I felt about it. It was a joy to work with.
The second I did with some heatsinks.
The worst nightmare of my life.
Improperly designed and it took me 22 hours to redesign, reshape and make work.
Now do I want to slam a manufacturer? No.
Instead of posting a negative review I sat down and wrote out all the needed "fixes" that were needed and mailed to the manufacturer. As these were pre-release they incorporated the fixes I sent and the final shipped product is an excellent one.
This is where I think a reviewer can be usefull.
The product is out of the lab and into a real world situation.

[SiGfever]

Of course I do, when it is thorough, accurate, and unbiaised.

But if your remark intends to infer that I advocate the concept outlined earlier for self interest, then you are mistaken in fact it is exactly the opposite. I advocate such concept because it is one of the foundations of human society. The beneficiary of a good or service should be paying for such. In this case, an independant agent or representative of the public is conducting tests to help the public decide whether a product is worth using. Isn't it natural that the public should be compensating that person for these services? I thought really long and hard on that topic and to be completely honest, my first reaction when I read these posts was to say that I wouldn't mind paying for product validation, but then I realized that this would be advocating something that is fundamentally flawed. So I changed my comments 180 degrees.

Gabe,

I was not directing my first post at you. I was merely stating that the time and effort for testing should be compensated. Certain people on this forum have EARNED the reputation for accurate, concise testing and their findings carry a lot of weight with the members. Paying an independent should never compromise your standards; have you ever had a piece of jewelery appraised by an independent? And if yes wasn't the reason you went to them was because they were not affiliated with a jewelry store? Same thing.

I like your products and use several of them in my rigs. Plus my next NB will probably be another MCW30 because my other one works so well. So please do not take my post personally as they were not meant to question your honesty or integrity.

[gillbot]

I have written plenty a bad review in the past, however, I did give the product supplier every chance to correct issues before the review was made public. If the product was updated and I was sent the updated version, I redid the review and the process was repeated until I was notified that this would be the retail revision. I did put all of the revision progress in my review though.

[gabe]

Gabe,

I was not directing my first post at you. I was merely stating that the time and effort for testing should be compensated. Certain people on this forum have EARNED the reputation for accurate, concise testing and their findings carry a lot of weight with the members. Paying an independent should never compromise your standards; have you ever had a piece of jewelery appraised by an independent? And if yes wasn't the reason you went to them was because they were not affiliated with a jewelry store? Same thing.

I like your products and use several of them in my rigs. Plus my next NB will probably be another MCW30 because my other one works so well. So please do not take my post personally as they were not meant to question your honesty or integrity.


I stand corrected. The subject was brought up whether manufacturers should/could pay for validation testing, and your post merely said that they should be paid, without ever mentionning who should pay. I am sorry if I misunderstandood your position then. By the way, your example of paying an appraiser confirms precisely what I am advocating. The public (the client) is paying an appraiser (the reviewer) to certify a product that he intends to buy.

so, if we all agree that they should be paid, do you agree that the Public should?

[gabe]

word of mouth like the how the storm WB was invented not advertisement hype of big media. is that what you mean gabe?

this comment is unclear to me.. the Storm WB ownership was not uncovered by word of mouth, it was disclosed in the first paragraph of the product page .. http://www.swiftech.com/products/STORM.asp

[SiGfever]

I stand corrected. The subject was brought up whether manufacturers should/could pay for validation testing, and your post merely said that they should be paid, without ever mentionning who should pay. I am sorry if I misunderstandood your position then. By the way, your example of paying an appraiser confirms precisely what I am advocating. The public (the client) is paying an appraiser (the reviewer) to certify a product that he intends to buy.

so, if we all agree that they should be paid, do you agree that the Public should?
What I meant was it might not be a bad idea for a manufacturer to hire an independent to test their product with all the information going to the paying company. Then it would be up to the company to release that information to the public to validate their product. just my $.015

[gabe]

@ Gabe;
This is an interesting discussion in the theoretical but then there is the reality.
No one wants to write a negative review ever.
I have done three. The first was with your H20-220 kit.
You know how I felt about it. It was a joy to work with.
The second I did with some heatsinks.
The worst nightmare of my life.
Improperly designed and it took me 22 hours to redesign, reshape and make work.
Now do I want to slam a manufacturer? No.
Instead of posting a negative review I sat down and wrote out all the needed "fixes" that were needed and mailed to the manufacturer. As these were pre-release they incorporated the fixes I sent and the final shipped product is an excellent one.
This is where I think a reviewer can be usefull.
The product is out of the lab and into a real world situation.

I fully agree, since you are talking about R&D testing rather than validation testing, which I clearly differentiate. To further clarify what I mean by validation testing " testing of a product that is in production for the purpose of validating it's actual performance for the benefit of potential users"

[Martinm210]

FYI

I completely agree with everyone regarding reviewers should not be paid, and I would even add to that and say to be completely unbiased they should not be paid by anyone....it's the way it should be.

My only complaint is the lack of performance related data on some websites, we only have a few now with c/w and pressure drop data and those don't go into detail on what c/w even means(testing specifications details), so testers are unable to even try and repeat that result. It's also very clear to me that c/w from one manufacturer was obtained differently from others. When that happens it means it's entirely left to the public to figure out for themselves, and that shouldn't be the case either.

I'd just like to see more manufacturer published performance results. At least it gives you a place to start and if there was enough detail about how those results were obtained, 3rd party testers might even be able to duplicate that.:up:

[Movieman]

The problem that arises is that when the reviewer is paid by the company he is then indebted to them whether he wishes to be or not.
If he is paid by the end users then he can be impartial.
No company in the world is going to continue paying a reviewer that is dumping on their products whether deserved or not.
You have to keep cash from the companies away from the reviewers or you set up a situation where he then becomes their unofficial employee.
Money corrupts the whole process here as it does everywhere else.

[gabe]

What I meant was it might not be a bad idea for a manufacturer to hire an independent to test their product with all the information going to the paying company. Then it would be up to the company to release that information to the public to validate their product. just my $.015

Ok, let's see if I get that right. I manufacturer pay for validation data. If it's no good, I don't publish it, if it's good, then I publish it, but since it was paid for, nobody believes in it, right? Not to sound harsh, but that's exactly what would happen.

So isn't it a much cleaner approach to let independants be funded by their direct beneficiary?

[majestik]

I'll just chime in and say that Martin has a paypal donation button on the flow rate estimator (http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/MartinsFlowRateEstimator.html) page.

[gabe]

The problem that arises is that when the reviewer is paid by the company he is then indebted to them whether he wishes to be or not.
If he is paid by the end users then he can be impartial.
No company in the world is going to continue paying a reviewer that is dumping on their products whether deserved or not.
You have to keep cash from the companies away from the reviewers or you set up a situation where he then becomes their unofficial employee.
Money corrupts the whole process here as it does everywhere else.

Amen.

[Movieman]

Ok, let's see if I get that right. I manufacturer pay for validation data. If it's no good, I don't publish it, if it's good, then I publish it, but since it was paid for, nobody believes in it, right? Not to sound harsh, but that's exactly what would happen.

So isn't it a much cleaner approach to let independants be funded by their direct beneficiary?
Yes

I'll just chime in and say that Martin has a paypal donation button on the flow rate estimator (http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/MartinsFlowRateEstimator.html) page.

Now that is a good idea but I'll bet you dollars to dimes that he doesn't see $100.00 /month..
People just WILL NOT pay for what they feel they should get for free no matter if they are right or wrong.
Look at Bok's Free Dc stats page, used by thousands but how many donate?
VERY few.
I sent him $25.00 twice and thats probably 30% of what he's received this year.

[SiGfever]

Ok, let's see if I get that right. I manufacturer pay for validation data. If it's no good, I don't publish it, if it's good, then I publish it, but since it was paid for, nobody believes in it, right? Not to sound harsh, but that's exactly what would happen.

So isn't it a much cleaner approach to let independants be funded by their direct beneficiary?

Yes I see your point. Too many people would believe that the tester was "Paid off" and the testing could not be trusted.

[gabe]

Yes


Now that is a good idea but I'll bet you dollars to dimes that he doesn't see $100.00 /month..
People just WILL NOT pay for what they feel they should get for free no matter if they are right or wrong.
Look at Bok's Free Dc stats page, used by thousands but how many donate?
VERY few.
I sent him $25.00 twice and thats probably 30% of what he's received this year.

very sound observation..

but I'm practical, so let's push this one step further

Either things go back to the way they are.. a few independants doing this as a hobby, for glory or fun, and/or some free hardware, or {suggestion} we take a tight knit community like XS interested in uncompromised data, and set up a fee based section of the forum to publish that data.. There are many practical issues with that, but it could be a way to get it done..

Someone rightfully suggested that reviewers should be compensated. Everybody agress (I think) that manufacturers cannot/should not/must not be involved. So how does it get done?

[Movieman]

very sound observation..

but I'm practical, so let's push this one step further

Either things go back to the way they are.. a few independants doing this as a hobby, for glory or fun, and/or some free hardware, or {suggestion} we take a tight knit community like XS interested in uncompromised data, and set up a fee based section of the forum to publish that data.. There are many practical issues with that, but it could be a way to get it done..

Someone rightfully suggested that reviewers should be compensated. Everybody agress (I think) that manufacturers cannot/should not/must not be involved. So how does it get done?

Just speaking for myself but I think there are many that feel this way;
People who review are generally "into" the hardware, it is a hobby but lets face it, it can be an expensive one.
We all have different financial abilities. Some guys can go and buy the state of the art twice a year but most of us can not and I surely can't.
What I have is time and investing that time to do a good in depth review of an item with the "payoff" of that item to me is a fair trade.
Now when I reviewed those HS and found them to be horrible as shipped I said to the company "Do you want me to ship them back to you?"
They said no.
I would have said the same to you had I found your kit to be crap but everything I said in that review was the God's truth or I wouldn't have put my name on it. To me it is that black and white and I'll say it here again, whoever wrote that manual in that kit is a resource not to be lost.
Now some here will think that I'm kissing your backside here but that is not me.
When I see a great product the little kid still inside this 56 year old body wants to share that with his friends so they can benefit from what I've learned. Yes, black and white.

[nikhsub1]

Wow, I must be on some massive ignore list. Either everyone is dense or I am placed in 'Tachy goes to coventry'. Reviewers should NEVER BE PAID, period end of story. What Movieman described is what people should be paid for, he should have been PAID for his insight, non public testing, advice etc, etc, etc.



Instead of posting a negative review I sat down and wrote out all the needed "fixes" that were needed and mailed to the manufacturer. As these were pre-release they incorporated the fixes I sent and the final shipped product is an excellent one.
This is where I think a reviewer can be usefull.
The product is out of the lab and into a real world situation.
And you should have been paid for this. This is my opinion. You did NOT publicly review this piece, you improved it.

[gabe]

Just speaking for myself but I think there are many that feel this way;
People who review are generally "into" the hardware, it is a hobby but lets face it, it can be an expensive one.
We all have different financial abilities. Some guys can go and buy the state of the art twice a year but most of us can not and I surely can't.
What I have is time and investing that time to do a good in depth review of an item with the "payoff" of that item to me is a fair trade..

right, I was just discussing the same thing with another member, and he made the very same observation.

which is one more reason to find creative ways to compensate reviewers without alienating their independance. We need good reviewers!

suggestions welcome on how to achieve that.

[Movieman]

right, I was just discussing the same thing with another member, and he made the very same observation.

which is one more reason to find creative ways to compensate reviewers without alienating their independance. We need good reviewers!

suggestions welcome on how to achieve that.
The first and biggest hurdle is trust, on both sides.
Also a feeling that we can work together talking straight to one another.
My feeling is that when a company has sent something to me they are taking a gamble that I will be honest with them and maybe I'm old fashioned but that trust means a lot to me. Lets face it, who the hell am I?
To honor that trust I owe them my best and that is why I spent that day reworking those heatsinks.
Niksub said I should have been paid for it but in a way I was.
The guys here who bought those heatsinks benefited from that sunday I spent and that's enough for me.
The company also benefited in that they sold a better product and thats my thanks to them for their trust in me.
It's a two way street or it should be seen that way, not an "us" and "them" mentality.

[71 (Bryan)]

im kinda disappointed, still now internals? :(

[gabe]

I second the motion to create a fee based area of the forum, I'll be the first member, but you would need at least (3) credible testers for checks and balances...

The manufacturers should pay into this fund and who they are and what they contributed should be kept from the testers. The products should also be provided to XS testers by the manufacturers. If the manufacturer believes in their product, then they shouldn't be afraid to let it be tested by Independents. Believe me, the wheat will be seperated from the chaff rather quickly...


We'd be happy to contribute into a "blind" fund.

[Movieman]

These are tough economic times for all, especially most manufacturers.
The current fuel costs are killing companies and workers alike.
People's discretionary income, if they have any, is being eaten up by these costs. Add in that if you live in a cold climate as it is here in the winter your trying to plan ahead for $5.00/gallon heating oil.
Just my little 48x26' 2200 sq ft split takes 600 gallons of oil a year to heat.
Three years ago that was $1.00 a gallon, now it will be $5.00
That's $3000.00 for what was $600.00 in just 3 years my friends.
Add in that everything is WAY up because of transportaion costs and you come down to the fact that to ask the manufacturers to kick into a kitty is just piss poor timing.
To me the status quo is the smart way. All thats needed is that the people who do the reviews are people you trust to post the truth.
Same as benchmarks, you know whose are legit and whose are BS.

[IanY]

Would be happy to pay monthly membership fees.. delighted to just be here... but that will exclude a large segment of XS members from privileged info. Is that wise ?

[twwen2]

Would be happy to pay monthly membership fees.. delighted to just be here... but that will exclude a large segment of XS members from privileged info. Is that wise ?

There's a good point. How many clubs charge a membership fee? (rhetorical Q:p:). XS is a kind of club. I don't see why certain parts of the site couldn
t be fee-based. I'm sure not everybody will agree tho!

[Movieman]

Thanks GABE for being a stand-up guy.

A blind fund makes sense. Manufacturers, IMO, need to quit passing everything on to the consumer. It's a sign of greed, when manufacturers continually refuse to cut a minute amount of profit, that they might better service the consumer.

The manufacturers that turn out consistently high performing/quality products, such as yourself, should welcome the opportunity afforded them.

Its easy to see, which manufacturers have given Martin pre-release/current production samples to test and which have not. NaeKuh has provided equipment to Martin, he personally purchased, that has helped manufacturers sell more product. Is this the way it's supposed to be?

Sorry, I felt compelled to express my views, especially since I understand both the side of the manufacturer and consumer.

edit: post was being typed when yours went up MovieMan, but these are my feelings that I feel need to be expressed.
Not a problem. We all have different viewpoints.
Yours is different from mine but just as valid.

Would be happy to pay monthly membership fees.. delighted to just be here... but that will exclude a large segment of XS members from privileged info. Is that wise ?

Good point. Like the rest of society XS is probably made up of 5% wealthy, 80% middle class and 15% that are fairly poor and I'm just speaking of the US members. I'm not knowledgeable enough to speak on the rest of the worlds economy.

[Kayin]

This is an incredibly interesting situation.

May I suggest another form of compensation? What about test materials? I don't mean CPUs and boards, I mean calibrated thermometers, die simulators, etc. These items, if provided by the manufacturers, and verified by an independent authority, would provide a solid baseline, as well as discourage cheating. The entusiasts are often the best qualified to test, but we've seen the makeshift (good and bad) test tools that many reviewers have. I've seen DIY die simulator threads, manometers, adjustable PSUs, everything-but with no standards in testing, is it ever apples to apples? I understand that some things are always constants, but if you had the instruments calibrated by an outside, neutral party, isn't that fixing most of the rest?

I dunno whether anyone will think I'm full of it or not, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

[SiGfever]

I have tried to look at it that the testing should be uncompensated but how long can that last?

My main concern is that people such as Martin, nik, and mcoffey will get tired of all the expense and long hours of tedious testing and will go by the wayside. These independent guys have a lot of burden to carry. The testing that they do makes manufacturers money by highlighting the best products. Independent testing labs survive all over the world by doing quality work at a fair price. They supply data that is not perceived as compromised because of being paid for their work. Why should watercooling products be any different. It is not a little known product anymore and is becoming more mainstream everyday.

Telling me that I should have to pay for testing to prove that someone's product does what they claim is absurd. Manufacturers should not only supply their test data but I would think they would love to have an independent validate their findings. If the testing shows flaws then it is up to honest merchants to fix the issues before going to market.

[nikhsub1]

The funny thing is, of all the manufacturers Swiftech needs what we are discussing the least. They have all the tools to do their own testing. That is not to say that it should not be validated, perhaps they do that as well IDK. I'm sorry that this thread degenerated into something totally unrelated to the GTZ...

[Movieman]

The funny thing is, of all the manufacturers Swiftech needs what we are discussing the least. They have all the tools to do their own testing. That is not to say that it should not be validated, perhaps they do that as well IDK. I'm sorry that this thread degenerated into something totally unrelated to the GTZ...

Nah, a good thread I think. Lot's of things discussed that should have been and having Gabe here with a manufacturer's viewpoint helped.
Besides, it buys his ass time to show that GTZ..:rofl:

[twwen2]

As far as the workload on individuals goes, i'm sure there are more of us out there that would be more than willing (indeed, keen as mustard) to take some of the burden off the experts, if you could call it that :D.

The issue arises that small fries like myself don't have the experience, money or industry exposure to really get off the ground. The experts are experts for a reason...

[Martinm210]

FYI, The $40 a month I've averaged in donations has covered my webhosting which I appreciate very much:yepp: But any future donations should go to XS, I don't even want to think about what sort of bandwidth we eat up BSing here.

BTW, I am finally getting ready to start in on my CPU block testing again, but I have no idea if I'll get one of these to try. I did manage to find an Apogee GT (traded a fellow member some testing gear for it), so I will at least include that one...:up:

Back on topic to the GTZ...I'd really like to see some internals when that's ready for the public.

[Nickel020]

I'm really intrigued by the design of the EK Supreme. It's a shame more manufacturers don't expand upon it. They all seem stuck on impingement, low pressure loss designs. I personally don't ever plan on running other blocks with my CPU, so pressure loss doesn't concern me.

Sorry to ramble, but I guess I'm just a little tired of the continuous rehash of the impingement blocks. I am hoping for something revolutionary in the Apogee GTZ, we'll see.

Watercool has making blocks with that exact system for years. They're due to release the Heatkiller 3.0 sometime soon.
Looking at their GPU coolers they don't care much about flow but mostly about raw performance (and amazing looks :)), so the 3.0 may be able to beat the Supreme.
But generally, most people don't have seperate CPU and GPU/motherboard loops, so it makes sense, that most coolers aren't near as restrictive as the Supreme.

[majestik]

Impingement is low restriction, since when? :shrug:

[majestik]

The D-TEK FuZion is a low restriction design...
It's a low restriction design if you use giant-sized nozzles. If you use the 3.5mm nozzle, its hardly low restriction.

Besides - EK Supreme is an impingement block, since it has an accelerator plate. It's just shaped differently, but it's purpose is still to accelerate water, hence achieving impingement.

[majestik]

Still it seems the current FuZion and Apogee designs favor a dual core processer, not a quad core...
That is true.
Nehalem will also have 270mm² die, compared to 107mm² for Wolfdale. And that will be the performance benchmark in a few months time, so I would expect the Apogee GTZ to be designed with that in mind :p:

[Kayin]

Am I the only one that's thinking (internal) pics or it's just vaporware?

[Jimmer411]

In some way or another, the manufacturers need to publish more/better baseline data for the consumer/enduser...

I am in the manufacturing business, our "in house lab", samples/tests our asphalt daily. This info is either confirmed/refuted by outside labs hired by the customer or the State. This allows us the opportunity to show "integrity". When the product is bad, we admit it and correct it. When it is good, we retest to verify the test results.

Why can't this apply to WC Mamufacturers??? I for one, don't enjoy buying products based upon marketing info alone. I second the motion to create a fee based area of the forum, I'll be the first member, but you would need at least (3) credible testers for checks and balances...

The manufacturers should pay into this fund and who they are and what they contributed should be kept from the testers. The products should also be provided to XS testers by the manufacturers. If the manufacturer believes in their product, then they shouldn't be afraid to let it be tested by Independents. Believe me, the wheat will be seperated from the chaff rather quickly...

RRR this isnt completely directed at you

On average whats the difference between waterblocks? Starting at the bottom and all the way to the top performer how much of a gap is there and does the ability to cool your processor adequately still exist?

Even the lowest performing waterblocks are within 5c of the top performers right? Even the Classic apogee was within 1-2c of the Storm, which is small enough to be considered the margin of error. All of which dont fail to cool your processor worse than air cooling. And when has 1c been the difference between stable and not stable on water? Dare I say never?



The testing of your concrete is a bit difference because the difference between your worst batch and your best is huge I would imagine. It would not perform...period correct? My company does the same thing internally with the parts we manufacture.

My point is testing of certain things is a requirement of the manufacturer. If Gabe was manufacturing safety harnesses, vehicle air bag devices or any number of other things that require structural or functional integrity to perform then it would be his job to pay to have an outside source test his goods. For example take a look at goods that are, and are not FDA approved.

But testing of mundane things like tubing, waterblocks or fans is something that only people like us care about. I challenge anyone to ask their parents if they even care about the temperature of their computer, let alone how much cooler their computer could run. Were a niche, its our job to test these things, not Gabes. Just like every other niche out there, it exists because of a few diehard people who like to flaunt their e-peen. Not like thats a bad thing tho ;)

[IanY]

I'll go out on a limb and say that you'll need an EK Supreme re-design for the Nehalem.

Let's back up a moment. XS constitutes perhaps 10% of the weirdo super enthusiast market, which in turn constitutes 10% of the market for water blocks, and water cooling probably constitutes 1% of the entire computer market. A normal person with regular brain faculties wouldn't dream of bringing water anywhere close to a computer. Its still an insane concept.

What incentive does any manufacturer have to contribute to such an XS fund? XS is just one of many forums, and XS doesn't have a measurable impact on any particular manufacturer. Remember that there are many many forums overseas in every single geographic market.

Gabe's astute enough not to release pictures of his internals. I know I wouldn't if I were him. Why should XS be so GD special compared to other forums ?

[majestik]

Gabe's astute enough not to release pictures of his internals. I know I wouldn't if I were him. Why should XS be so GD special compared to other forums ?
Because he actually posts here, plus we already have a date. I think we can all wait 3 days.

[IanY]

I would place a bet that its not impingement, and I would bet further that the Nehalem won't work so well with impingement blocks, and that the high flow low restriction blocks will return to favor.

Besides that, I've never seen an impingement block where the inlet is not in the center, and that GTZ's inlet and outlets are at the corners.

[twwen2]

..I would bet further that the Nehalem won't work so well with impingement blocks, and that the high flow low restriction blocks will return to favor.

I'm intrigued, why would this be so? Is the Nehalem processor going to be that different from the current setup? I know the actual core itself is vastly different to the current generation (IMC, etc), but it'll still have one IC/core, soldered to the underside of an IHS no?

[majestik]

Just effin' huge die, methinks.

But yes, IanY, you're right. Most likely not impingement since the neither barb is centered.

[orclev]

RRR this isnt completely directed at you

On average whats the difference between waterblocks? Starting at the bottom and all the way to the top performer how much of a gap is there and does the ability to cool your processor adequately still exist?

Even the lowest performing waterblocks are within 5c of the top performers right? Even the Classic apogee was within 1-2c of the Storm, which is small enough to be considered the margin of error. All of which dont fail to cool your processor worse than air cooling. And when has 1c been the difference between stable and not stable on water? Dare I say never?



The testing of your concrete is a bit difference because the difference between your worst batch and your best is huge I would imagine. It would not perform...period correct? My company does the same thing internally with the parts we manufacture.

My point is testing of certain things is a requirement of the manufacturer. If Gabe was manufacturing safety harnesses, vehicle air bag devices or any number of other things that require structural or functional integrity to perform then it would be his job to pay to have an outside source test his goods. For example take a look at goods that are, and are not FDA approved.

But testing of mundane things like tubing, waterblocks or fans is something that only people like us care about. I challenge anyone to ask their parents if they even care about the temperature of their computer, let alone how much cooler their computer could run. Were a niche, its our job to test these things, not Gabes. Just like every other niche out there, it exists because of a few diehard people who like to flaunt their e-peen. Not like thats a bad thing tho ;)

Manufacturers can't obviously have a standardized way of testing actual performance on most products because there are to many variables, but they can test some basic properties of their products in a standardized way and publish that data. Some of them already do this on some of their products, but it needs to become more widespread and needs to have some sort of standards body like UL or ISO backing it and specifying exactly what those standards are. There's no reason at all why fans for instance can not have performance charts tracking CFM, RPM and DB, that are accurate, verifiable, and certified. If the industry would just take this one minor step it would go a long way towards putting everyone on even ground and simplifying testing of their products by eliminating the need to verify every last detail about their products.

The FDA is a bad example in this case, because that's a government applied requirement. UL is a better example, as that's an industry applied requirement. Quite simply, when shopping for certain parts, most people will not by something that's not UL certified because without that certification the only way to know if the product meets its specification is to actually test it. Because most people will be hesitant to buy without the certification, manufacturers will go out of their way to meet the certification requirements. Further, claiming a product as certified if it isn't, or producing a product that has been certified, but which doesn't meet the performance requirements has major consequences (lawsuit in the former, and losing your UL certification in the later) which keeps the manufacturers honest (in combination with spot checking by engineers and UL).

[IanY]

I see that there's disagreement :up:

[IanY]

I'm intrigued, why would this be so? Is the Nehalem processor going to be that different from the current setup? I know the actual core itself is vastly different to the current generation (IMC, etc), but it'll still have one IC/core, soldered to the underside of an IHS no?

We'll carry this on in private, dear sir, because I can already feel the intense heat of flames from the EK Supreme is Supreme crowd. :D

There are a lot of experts here in this forum. However, we all were born with the same pot to dump in. I'm no expert, but at least I recognize the pottie. Many of them don't. Yet there are even some who stare in the mirror and see bling.

[jonny_ftm]

Everythning on Nehalem is pure speculation. One thing is sure: all actual blocks will need new mounting plates. For all the rest, it's a hit and miss. If you're one of those crazy enough to take the wagon as soon as Nehalem is launched, than better wait before buying a new WB

[IanY]

The dies are big. That we know.


Everythning on Nehalem is pure speculation.

What makes you think that info is not disseminated in another language besides English ? :)

XS is fond of viewing itself as the boundaries of planet earth.

The X58 mobos are ready for production.

[Kayin]

It's most likely a laminar flow grid array of some sort. At this point, I'm tempted to say cast pin-fin with each fin shaped for max surface area. That would offer quite an increase in surface area, which should result in a decently-sized boost in cooling.

This conjecture is developed solely by noting the design of the block, the previous offering from the company, and a bit of knowledge of block design (ok, a fair bit of knowledge...). However, I'm ALMOST confident enough to take bets.

[NaeKuh]

:wasntme:
bah..
i'll let everyone just guess.
Just its funny how everyone so quickly discredits the EK.

Lets just say im already preping a mounting plate for my EK, and better accelerators to compensate.

i think i'll have fun with my ek b4 all of you guys will.

oh, yes on NEHA. :wasntme:


Everythning on Nehalem is pure speculation.

uhh... no... :rofl:

If your on my friends list, you'll know i dont speculate about neha.

[IanY]

Note that I am not aligned with Naekuh's opinion, and yet he has the grace to not ridicule me.

Some people like to believe that they hold the Tablets on the Temple Mount.

OK whatever. Everyone's got a back chute, and thus two opinions.

[NaeKuh]

lol everyone is intitled to there own opinions.

But theres a reason why i was praising the EK for having such a large cooling head area.

Time to show it off. :D


:D

Im in the process of getting a carbon fiber mounting plate for it.
And yes im talking about fittings for the X58 :D


Accelerators will take some time. I need to figure out how to do this.

Oh but we take the cuirrent arguement, leave everything at stock, everything will fail.

We neeed tweeks. oh the apogeeGT and gtx will have a resurrection for sure, only to get phased out by new accelerators.


Also i bet you swiftech and DangerDen will be first to release revisions for neha. Like always.

[IanY]

Sometimes, first responders to market lose.

Like you mentioned, some people learnt the art of imitation from the Japanese.

[71 (Bryan)]

lol everyone is intitled to there own opinions.

But theres a reason why i was praising the EK for having such a large cooling head area.

Time to show it off. :D


:D

Im in the process of getting a carbon fiber mounting plate for it.
And yes im talking about fittings for the X58 :D


Accelerators will take some time. I need to figure out how to do this.

Oh but we take the cuirrent arguement, leave everything at stock, everything will fail.

We neeed tweeks. oh the apogeeGT and gtx will have a resurrection for sure, only to get phased out by new accelerators.


Also i bet you swiftech and DangerDen will be first to release revisions for neha. Like always.
carbon fiber plate for what?
i like carbon fiber

[NaeKuh]

carbon fiber plate for what?
i like carbon fiber

hold down plate.

instead of a stainless steel plate it currently has.


carbon fiber = Sexy. Hands down.

[majestik]

Lets just say im already preping a mounting plate for my EK, and better accelerators to compensate.

pictures please ;)

[NaeKuh]

pictures please ;)

dont want to steal from the GTZ thread.

i'll make a new one after NDA is over.

Sorry im bound to NDA, so i cant really speak much of it.

[71 (Bryan)]

i like carbon fiber, i wish more pc companys would use carbon fiber

[majestik]

Give me your money and i'll send you some carbon fiber stickers.

[Martinm210]

FYI, Recieved an email from Swiftech that I should be getting a sample to test when stock is available..so it will be in my roundup I'm starting on..:up:

[ThrustSSC]

FYI, Recieved an email from Swiftech that I should be getting a sample to test when stock is available..so it will be in my roundup I'm starting on..:up:

Sounds good, can you tell us what blocks your going to test?

[Xilikon]

Glad to hear this, Martin :)

[jonny_ftm]

What makes you think that info is not disseminated in another language besides English ? :)

XS is fond of viewing itself as the boundaries of planet earth.

The X58 mobos are ready for production.

I just didn't read nothing about this on other forums. And as of your statement, hopefully I think that some french, german, italian and other english forums are as good if not better than XS on some areas :rolleyes:

Sadely I don't know chinese/corean and other such languages you know maybe...



If your on my friends list, you'll know i dont speculate about neha.


I'm not on your list but I'm sure as soon as Nehalem is out for the masses, we'll have many great reviewers, not only here, to test and compare current WB when compatible backplates are released.



FYI, Recieved an email from Swiftech that I should be getting a sample to test when stock is available..so it will be in my roundup I'm starting on..:up:

That's great news :) Thank you in advance. Sure August is gonna be an interesting month

[gabe]

I have tried to look at it that the testing should be uncompensated but how long can that last?

My main concern is that people such as Martin, nik, and mcoffey will get tired of all the expense and long hours of tedious testing and will go by the wayside. .... I do share that concern indeed


Telling me that I should have to pay for testing to prove that someone's product does what they claim is absurd. Manufacturers should not only supply their test data but I would think they would love to have an independent validate their findings. ....

but you are missing the point entirely... independants are no longer independants if we (manufacturers) pay them!

All I hear from the Public is "who can I trust?" the minute I start paying an independant for testing and publish his results, the data becomes subject to questionning..

[gabe]

FYI, The $40 a month I've averaged in donations has covered my webhosting which I appreciate very much:yepp: But any future donations should go to XS, I don't even want to think about what sort of bandwidth we eat up BSing here.

BTW, I am finally getting ready to start in on my CPU block testing again, but I have no idea if I'll get one of these to try. I did manage to find an Apogee GT (traded a fellow member some testing gear for it), so I will at least include that one...:up:

Back on topic to the GTZ...I'd really like to see some internals when that's ready for the public.

You will, you will, it's a question of days now, if not hours.

make sure you bow the GT.. we only ship it bowed now. makes a big diff in perfs. can provide o-ring if needed.

[Fusion2002]

Any way I can order a set of those nice springs to use on my GTX? I love the black look!

[71 (Bryan)]

Give me your money and i'll send you some carbon fiber stickers.

love CF but hate cf stickers with passion
any chance of seeing the GTZ with CF hold down plates in the future?

[Martinm210]

You will, you will, it's a question of days now, if not hours.

make sure you bow the GT.. we only ship it bowed now. makes a big diff in perfs. can provide o-ring if needed.

Awesome, I will do so, thanks Gabe:up:

[SiGfever]

I do share that concern indeed



but you are missing the point entirely... independants are no longer independants if we (manufacturers) pay them!

All I hear from the Public is "who can I trust?" the minute I start paying an independant for testing and publish his results, the data becomes subject to questionning..

So you are saying that Independent Testing Labs around the world can't be trusted because they are paid to do a job? If the Independents are on your payroll then their testing would be in question as independent, but if you contract someone to do outside testing on your product how would that lessen their findings.

As Martin has stated he can make damn good money by working OT at his place of employment so the testing is nothing but a losing cost to him. Thank goodness that these people have the passion for this testing but long hours without compensation can make one change their mind. And the loss of someone of these guys caliber would be a loss for the whole industry.

[Xilikon]

So you are saying that Independent Testing Labs around the world can't be trusted because they are paid to do a job? If the Independents are on your payroll then their testing would be in question as independent, but if you contract someone to do outside testing on your product how would that lessen their findings.

As Martin has stated he can make damn good money by working OT at his place of employment so the testing is nothing but a losing cost to him. Thank goodness that these people have the passion for this testing but long hours without compensation can make one change their mind. And the loss of someone of these guys caliber would be a loss for the whole industry.

Laboratories like UL, CSA, ISO, etc... are all paid by governments or industry pooling the money to get the certifications. By pooling the money, everyone agree to take the risk of a testing/review showing the product negatively. However, this should promote them to make sure the products they release in the market is up to the customers expectation. The key difference is if a single manufacturer pay someone or somebody to do the testing, then I agree this would taint the whole process in a certain extent.

This is why having a pool of money funded by every manufacturer would warrant a fair testing process since each manufacturer is equally affected by the outcome. Never allow a single manufacturer to fund it.

[gillbot]

FYI, The $40 a month I've averaged in donations has covered my webhosting which I appreciate very much:yepp: But any future donations should go to XS, I don't even want to think about what sort of bandwidth we eat up BSing here.

BTW, I am finally getting ready to start in on my CPU block testing again, but I have no idea if I'll get one of these to try. I did manage to find an Apogee GT (traded a fellow member some testing gear for it), so I will at least include that one...:up:

Back on topic to the GTZ...I'd really like to see some internals when that's ready for the public.

I'd be glad to loan any blocks I have that you don't for testing. You'll just have to deal with NaeKuh while my rig is down. LOL!

I have an Apogee, Apogee GT and Dtek FuZion V1 though you probably have most of these already.

[Martinm210]

Sounds good, can you tell us what blocks your going to test?

Sure, Not sure I'll get them all done, but I should have the following I'll be working on:


Apogee GTZ
Apogee GT
Apogee Drive
Danger Den MC-TDX
Danger Den TDX
D-Tek Fuzion V1
D-Tek Fuzion V2
XSPC Edge Acrylic
EK Supreme
Aqua Computers Double Impact
Thermalright XWB-01


But I'm not rushing this, going to take my time and do the full 5 mount detailed testing and some of them I might test with different nozzles, etc.

I'm also going to setup my flow meter in the test loop to record actual flow rate (Not completely necessary, but why not make use of it), going to run straight water, and I'm going to spend some time prior getting the actual heat load in watts of my processor so I can generate c/w values and maybe even play with the OC to determine the heat load at different overclocks.

Should be good I hope to maybe take the estimators a step further.:up:

I've even been pondering running more than one pump scenario, perhaps one and then two DDCs with tops just to iron out if extra pumping power does anything or not.