TFC 480ER Radiator Test Results [Archive]

Martinm210

07-04-2008, 05:38 PM

First I wanted to give Martin from TFC a big thanks for providing me with this prototype for testing, I'm very fortunate to be so lucky!:up:

Here is my full review with pressure drop testing and my exhaustive thermal testing.
FULL REVIEW LINK
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/The-Feser-Company-X-Changer-480-Review.html

Here is a quick summary of my findings:

First a few pictures:
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/TFC-XChanger-480-2.jpg
A beatiful and very large dual row, dual pass quad optimized for low speed fans.

http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/TFC-XChanger-480-4.jpg
A nice bleedscrew for you inverted barb installers.

PRESSURE DROP TESTING

http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/TFC-XChanger-480-8.jpg

I used their supplied compression barbs for 1/2" ID 3/4" OD tubing:
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/TFC-CompressionBarbs.jpg

And the results are an exceptionally low pressure drop, very nice!
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/TFC480-PD2.png

THERMAL TESTING RESULTS

http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/TFC480-Thermal2.png

Comparison of thermals to the 480GTX:
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/TFC480-Thermal7.png
It's dominating the slow speed fans and they are equal at 1880RPM.

Looking at what that means using some assumed system heat loads for comparison:
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/TFC480-Thermal8.png

Here is the fan preference poll I started:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=193649

It appears something like 80% of the users prefer using the 1550RPM or slower fans, so it's really optimized well with the more open fin structure.:up:

Just when I think I'm done tearing apart my system, now I've got another new radiator to install permanently...:D

Cheers!:toast2:
Martin

SiGfever

07-04-2008, 05:56 PM

Thanks Martin for another excellent test. :clap: :clap:

disruptfam

07-04-2008, 06:10 PM

martin fantastic work!!! looks to be a great rad for most of us, using slower rpm fans.

Only thing is this is very expensive

iboomalot

07-04-2008, 06:16 PM

I don't doubt that Disruptfam

Zaskar

07-04-2008, 06:38 PM

Only thing is this is very expensive[/B]

So worth it though, but the 4 fan rad is a bit too much for me, what fits that? :P

Isn't even room for that in a MM Ascension and I can fit 4 triple fan rads in there :P
Though I guess if you can deal with just 3 drive bays instead of 6, you could have a custom front made to allow for a 4 fan rad along with 2 other 3 fan rads.

IanY

07-04-2008, 06:40 PM

It would be nice to see where the PA120.3 stands in relation to those graphs. Its what a lot of people have, even if it shows the TC losing out.

Martinm210

07-04-2008, 06:43 PM

It would be nice to see where the PA120.3 stands in relation to those graphs. Its what a lot of people have, even if it shows the TC losing out.

I can do that, is there any one in particular though?

I'll start working on the bar chart, it seems to be the one most people can relate to.

Zaskar

07-04-2008, 06:46 PM

It would be nice to see where the PA120.3 stands in relation to those graphs. Its what a lot of people have, even if it shows the TC losing out.

Compared to the 4 fan TFC one? Was a comparison to the 3 fan TFC rad done yet? (Full thermal, not just flow)

IanY

07-04-2008, 06:51 PM

I can do that, is there any one in particular though?

I'll start working on the bar chart, it seems to be the one most people can relate to.

It seems like the PA120.3 could be compared to both of the 480 radiators. I know that the TC is likely to fall behind, but its what a lot of people have. I have PA120.3s in abundance, and I don't have the ability to slot in 480s because of current case configurations. Yet.

IanY

07-04-2008, 06:54 PM

Compared to the 4 fan TFC one? Was a comparison to the 3 fan TFC rad done yet? (Full thermal, not just flow)

Various comparisons between the 3 fan TFC andthe PA120.3 have been done. However,its not easy at all to deploy the 3 fan TFC in place of the pA120.3 because of fan spacing issues.

My objective is to find out how the pA fares in relation to the state-of-the-art. There must be some point where a 480 (or larger) with ultra slow fans beats out the PA120.3. I would like to know that threshold.

Kayin

07-04-2008, 06:56 PM

Ian, why not just make your own cases? A bit of angle aluminum, some sheets and a knockout punch for 120mm and you'd have whatever you needed.

Me, I can always add an extension to Mithril to accommodate one if I ever needed it. Not that I think I do with my config...

IanY

07-04-2008, 07:01 PM

Kayin;3117206']Ian, why not just make your own cases? A bit of angle aluminum, some sheets and a knockout punch for 120mm and you'd have whatever you needed.

Me, I can always add an extension to Mithril to accommodate one if I ever needed it. Not that I think I do with my config...

I have no such talent, no such skills. no such time, and no such inclination :) The Secretary of Home Aesthetics would have a heart attack. She'll hover and comment/complain about every case feature not fitting the decor, then I would have to buy new furniture and new drapes !!

Its "honey do" every 30 minutes out of every hour, and "honey we need" every one on three hours, plus "daddy I'm hungry" and "poo poo change." I have about enough time to boot up and shut down my computer.

Zaskar

07-04-2008, 07:08 PM

Various comparisons between the 3 fan TFC andthe PA120.3 have been done. However,its not easy at all to deploy the 3 fan TFC in place of the pA120.3 because of fan spacing issues.

My objective is to find out how the pA fares in relation to the state-of-the-art. There must be some point where a 480 (or larger) with ultra slow fans beats out the PA120.3. I would like to know that threshold.

I though TFC rads used what is almost considered standard spacing, and Thermochill is the odd one out as far as that went?

Either way thats why I love MM cases, if I want to swap my TC rads for TFC ones, I just have to order a new front plate.

IanY

07-04-2008, 07:12 PM

I though TFC rads used what is almost considered standard spacing, and Thermochill is the odd one out as far as that went?

Either way thats why I love MM cases, if I want to swap my TC rads for TFC ones, I just have to order a new front plate.

Err.. no... both the TC, the TFC and even the new MCRs all have non-standard spacing.

For a classic MM UFO case built with Swiftech spacing, you can't use TFC, you can't use PA, and you can't even use some new darn Swiftechs lol

For a brand new MM CYO case with Thermochill spacing, you sure cannot use a TFC.

This is a nightmare and a half.

You swap the MM Ascension front for a front that holds TFC, you get to use only two radiators. Be aware. And you sure as hell can't use a quad TFC at the back of a Horizon style case. This sux big time!

On the other hand, if you have a MM Ascension with Trinity Front and you order the Duality back (not Horizon) and you order the dual radiator plate, you get to use four PA120.3s and one PA120.2. With the Horizon, you give up the PA120.2.

leo_bsb

07-04-2008, 07:13 PM

This was just another great review Martin, thanks a lot!

Martinm210

07-04-2008, 07:25 PM

Compared to the 4 fan TFC one? Was a comparison to the 3 fan TFC rad done yet? (Full thermal, not just flow)

Sorry I don't have any other TFC rads, I borrowed a triple from DD a while back for pressure drop testing, but I had to send it back and only had enough time to do the PD test. That was before I even had my radiator test bench built.

Here is a comparison to my PA120.3 test as well...
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/TFC480-Thermal9.png

eXa

07-04-2008, 07:29 PM

Very nice. It looks like the PA120.3 and the TFC360 would be very equal....?

IanY

07-04-2008, 07:37 PM

Thanks very much, Martin !!!

The quad TFC is pretty darn good.

philbrown23

07-04-2008, 08:17 PM

wow any idea on what the retail will be?

disruptfam

07-04-2008, 08:22 PM

$250usd ???

Martinm210

07-04-2008, 08:31 PM

wow any idea on what the retail will be?

They told me around $199 and it includes some compression fittings and feser corrosion blocker base.

qdemn7

07-04-2008, 08:48 PM

Another great review Martin. :up:
Seems like TC ought to get off their bums, and start making PA120.4s. But, of course, that would be too much to ask. They can't even supply their resellers with PA120.3s.:soap:

eXa

07-04-2008, 08:56 PM

140wide rads would be of much more use. 120.4 is very often way too long.

Very roughly:

120.3 is 36x12 = 432
120.4 is 48x12 = 576
140.3 is 42x14 = 588
140.2 is 28x14 = 392
120.2 is 24x12 = 288

a 140.3 would have slightly more area than a 120.4
a 140.2 would have almost as much area as 120.3

Zaskar

07-04-2008, 09:07 PM

Err.. no... both the TC, the TFC and even the new MCRs all have non-standard spacing.

For a classic MM UFO case built with Swiftech spacing, you can't use TFC, you can't use PA, and you can't even use some new darn Swiftechs lol

For a brand new MM CYO case with Thermochill spacing, you sure cannot use a TFC.

This is a nightmare and a half.

You swap the MM Ascension front for a front that holds TFC, you get to use only two radiators. Be aware. And you sure as hell can't use a quad TFC at the back of a Horizon style case. This sux big time!

On the other hand, if you have a MM Ascension with Trinity Front and you order the Duality back (not Horizon) and you order the dual radiator plate, you get to use four PA120.3s and one PA120.2. With the Horizon, you give up the PA120.2.

Wait why couldn't you use 3 TCF rads on the front of an Ascension Trinity if you order it with TFC spacing (Which isn't a standard option so it would probably cost more) I thought TFC rads spacing is a bit tighter then TC ones, and you can put 3 triple TC rads on the front of a trinity plate.

manyga

07-04-2008, 09:11 PM

Great review bro!!

Is imposible put more information....!!!

Good job ''Water'' Martin!

Regards!

Jimmer411

07-04-2008, 10:22 PM

Zaskar

07-04-2008, 10:29 PM

Yep. I was pissed when my mcr320 didn't fit proper in my ufo. Very pissed.

Rather than adding a fan they should be working on 140mm rads :)

That would fit nothing though :P

Repliquant67

07-04-2008, 10:57 PM

Nice work like ever:up:
I am happy to see that I made a good choice with the feser rad I bought (I use 38mm fan at ~ 1500rpm) :)

Edit : Your tests were in push pull ?

Martinm210

07-04-2008, 11:29 PM

Nice work like ever:up:
I am happy to see that I made a good choice with the feser rad I bought (I use 38mm fan at ~ 1500rpm) :)

Edit : Your tests were in push pull ?

Thanks!
I did all my radiator testing in pull only, no shroud.
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/TFC-NoShroudSetup.jpg

Repliquant67

07-04-2008, 11:38 PM

Ok.
Using middle speed fan in push-pull, the gtx should be better than the feser ?
Shrouds are more benefit for hig restriction air flow ?

MomijiTMO

07-05-2008, 12:11 AM

Great review as per usual :up:

Looks like this rad is worth every penny.

ThrustSSC

07-05-2008, 01:30 AM

Great testing!
Still too much expensive in my opinion.

shachar2

07-05-2008, 01:45 AM

Do you accept requests?
Can you also check the radiators with passive cooling (fans off)?

It shouldn't add too much complication to your testing

eXa

07-05-2008, 03:07 AM

That would fit nothing though :P

No, ur wrong. Wich case is slimmer than 14cm? and do u know how wide a 5.25" bay is? ;)

Giannis86

07-05-2008, 03:55 AM

thats some great testing martin!

my 5c
although this rad is very expensive you could save space and money from using a single loop instead of a multiple loop..You could argue that you could get the 480gtx though:D

septim

07-05-2008, 04:36 AM

as usual great testing Martinm. slight improvement vs PA120.3 is given due to 480 have more cooling surface... i assume we all would like to see some 3*120 comparisons next between PA120.3, BI GTX360 and TFC xchanger 360, now that would really determine which is king...

mounting difference due to diff fan hole spacing, i suggest make the case fan holes multi fit, like those kikboxes radgrills...

shachar2

07-05-2008, 06:25 AM

how much watts of heat does a quad core cpu (non extreme edition) and a modern gpu takes?

IanY

07-05-2008, 06:49 AM

Wait why couldn't you use 3 TCF rads on the front of an Ascension Trinity if you order it with TFC spacing (Which isn't a standard option so it would probably cost more) I thought TFC rads spacing is a bit tighter then TC ones, and you can put 3 triple TC rads on the front of a trinity plate.

No.. you.. *cannot*.. have three Quad fan TFCs fit in the front of a Trinity MM Ascension.

The Ascension case is just way too small. Look at Sargatanas' build. Its bursting at its seams. I don't understand why MM extended the regular MM UFO case by 6 inches, and only height wise. They *know* that the case is too cramped.

The only way is to not have any optical bays. If you choose to have no opticals, then yeah you can have three Quad fan TFCs.

Even then, three Quad fan TFCs are not going to match five or six TCs, at least not in being as versatile.

Martinm210

07-05-2008, 07:02 AM

Ok.
Using middle speed fan in push-pull, the gtx should be better than the feser ?
Shrouds are more benefit for hig restriction air flow ?

I don't know, you'll nearly double the fan pressure with push/pull, but if that's enough...I don't know. I had planned to do some push/pull/shroud experiments later with a smaller radiators so I have enough fans to test with.

Do you accept requests?
Can you also check the radiators with passive cooling (fans off)?

It shouldn't add too much complication to your testing

Tried that, passive just doesn't work very well on any radiator. I tried a 300W heat load passive and had to shut it down when the water went over 50C and steadily climbing. You'd probably have to build some sort of ducting to get a chimney like draft to move some air for you. Regardless you're not going to dissipate much heat passively at all. You need some sort of fan on there.

as usual great testing Martinm. slight improvement vs PA120.3 is given due to 480 have more cooling surface... i assume we all would like to see some 3*120 comparisons next between PA120.3, BI GTX360 and TFC xchanger 360, now that would really determine which is king...

mounting difference due to diff fan hole spacing, i suggest make the case fan holes multi fit, like those kikboxes radgrills...

I know, I just like the quads for external mounts. You get more heat dissipated from a single unit, so why not..:D Now if only MM would make a quad based case...

how much watts of heat does a quad core cpu (non extreme edition) and a modern gpu takes?

I've provided a few links in the full review for estimating heat loads, it all depends on the overclock (Speed and Vcore) and which GPU. It varies a huge amount depending on that.

Vapor

07-05-2008, 07:32 AM

Damn....3C better than the PA120.3 at <1600RPM for a mega load. Definitely more than 'nothing' there.

Great review as usual of an apparently awesome radiator--definitely a 480 more in tune with the fannage preferences of the constituency here (if your poll is any indication).

If my math and theory are right...a 360 TFC would approximately get the following estimated water temps over ambient (from left to right for fannage):

TFC 360
19.17C, 13.14C, 11.25C, 8.75C, 6.34C
vs. PA 120.3
17.51C, 13.18C, 11.77C, 8.92C, 6.25C

septim

07-05-2008, 07:36 AM

well martin maybe someone should send you one of those 560s next... eager for more testing results of next rad you put on your test bench... (to complete the picture...)

the suggestion stands for mounting diff kinds of 3*120 rads, do hole spacing like a kikboxes' radgrill, or just buy a kikbox radgrill and follow instructions on how to mount...

well Vapor if your estimates are on the dot, then the PA is still the king, and TFC xchanger ain't the Thermochill killer its hyped up to...

Repliquant67

07-05-2008, 07:47 AM

I don't know, you'll nearly double the fan pressure with push/pull, but if that's enough...I don't know. I had planned to do some push/pull/shroud experiments later with a smaller radiators so I have enough fans to test with.

Tried that, passive just doesn't work very well on any radiator. I tried a 300W heat load passive and had to shut it down when the water went over 50C and steadily climbing. You'd probably have to build some sort of ducting to get a chimney like draft to move some air for you. Regardless you're not going to dissipate much heat passively at all. You need some sort of fan on there.

I know, I just like the quads for external mounts. You get more heat dissipated from a single unit, so why not..:D Now if only MM would make a quad based case...

I've provided a few links in the full review for estimating heat loads, it all depends on the overclock (Speed and Vcore) and which GPU. It varies a huge amount depending on that.

I like to see the difference pull vs push-pull for this radiators :)
I'm waiting too your test EK supreme vs d-tek fuzion v2 :up:

Martinm210

07-05-2008, 08:33 AM

I looked a little bit at the c/w values between the different sized PAs on TC's site, but it looks to me the smaller the size radiator, the slightly more efficient. So I've been hesitant to try and estimate one size from results of a different size. I suppose there is some sort of turbulence benefit near the ends of the tubes and maybe a little heat dissipation at the tank ends. But at the same time the larger rads on the PA's gain quite a bit of frontal surface area due to the fan spacing, so you would think it would be the other way around.

Anyhow I really don't know how the triples stack up and not sure I understand the size relationship well enough to estimate anything else.

I've only seen a few tests on here for the PA120.3 vs the TFC360:

Malik's test (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2930891&postcount=147) had the TC slightly ahead.

mcoffey's test (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2931169&postcount=154) had the TFC slightly ahead.

They are both awesome radiators and similar in fan optimization. There are some size differences, fin folding shaped differences, and fin density differences that make them similar but a little different. So far we have two slightly contraticting tests which put them pretty close.

I have a few more smaller radiators sitting here I had on the list to do as well, but I'm probably going to switch back to CPU block testing for a while to change the scenery. I wanted to at least get this one in before doing so that way I could decide which I wanted to use in my CPU loop for testing. It is King of the radiators I have tested for the fans I prefer to use, that's all I know. I've only got two triples tested, the PA120.3 and the MCR320 and the PA is King between those two.

Everyone has their own selection criteria. First and formost which fans you want to use, then your heat load, then you can start weighing out the size and cost factors out. I'm still always going to be one that recommends overdesigning the radiator component though (Preferrable down under a 5C water/air in delta). Restriction is so low on radiators it's almost never going to be a flow/pump problem and radiators are one thing that'll last in a WC system through many hardware generations, so why not. Put the effort into the rads, if you cant fit a quad, put what you can in there including another single in series if you can squeeze it in where you can pull cold air through it.

I've also got some road miles to put on the streetbike and a Halibut fishing trip scheduled, so I'm going on testing vacation for a few weeks here..:D

Jimmer411

07-05-2008, 09:25 AM

That would fit nothing though :P

140.3 would fit alot of cases...

Plus it wouldnt be hard to have a panel made at MM to hold a 140.3...or 3 :D

DarthBeavis

07-05-2008, 09:30 AM

Great testing!
Still too much expensive in my opinion.

Prices going down

RCG_Bex

07-05-2008, 09:36 AM

I considered 1 of these for my new case (then I could do both my GPUs and NB on the 1 loop and give the 120.2 entirely to my cpu) but it's difficult to find the quad at a good price in stock. So I thought I'd get a 120.3 PA but it's not ins tock anywhere I look T_T

~Bex

Zaskar

07-05-2008, 09:59 AM

No.. you.. *cannot*.. have three Quad fan TFCs fit in the front of a Trinity MM Ascension.

The Ascension case is just way too small. Look at Sargatanas' build. Its bursting at its seams. I don't understand why MM extended the regular MM UFO case by 6 inches, and only height wise. They *know* that the case is too cramped.

The only way is to not have any optical bays. If you choose to have no opticals, then yeah you can have three Quad fan TFCs.

Even then, three Quad fan TFCs are not going to match five or six TCs, at least not in being as versatile.

Hehe sorry, I was referring to triple fan TFC rads in that situation to replace the TC ones.

Looking at my case, you could only fit either 1 quad fan at the expense of 3 optical bays, or 3 at the expense of all of them. (the middle rad is part way between both drive bay sides) just not worth it.

IanY

07-05-2008, 10:09 AM

Hehe sorry, I was referring to triple fan TFC rads in that situation to replace the TC ones.

Looking at my case, you could only fit either 1 quad fan at the expense of 3 optical bays, or 3 at the expense of all of them. (the middle rad is part way between both drive bay sides) just not worth it.

Please forgive me, Sargantas. But I know you wouldn't mind because you pretty much made the samepoint.

Look Zaskar, here's the super capacious, super-sized Ascension case with so much space that no one knows what to do with all that extra room!

shachar2

07-05-2008, 10:48 AM

Tried that, passive just doesn't work very well on any radiator. I tried a 300W heat load passive and had to shut it down when the water went over 50C and steadily climbing. You'd probably have to build some sort of ducting to get a chimney like draft to move some air for you. Regardless you're not going to dissipate much heat passively at all. You need some sort of fan on there.

you're not running a cpu in our test setup so you have no risk of damaging it only of getting to a too high a pressure.

I would guess that you'll get to a lot more then 50C.
There's also a 9x120 radiator, what about this one and passive cooling?

Martinm210

07-05-2008, 11:13 AM

you're not running a cpu in our test setup so you have no risk of damaging it only of getting to a too high a pressure.

I would guess that you'll get to a lot more then 50C.
There's also a 9x120 radiator, what about this one and passive cooling?

I could try a 100 watt heat load using my variac to dial down the heat, but 300 was too much. I don't have a processor to fry, but I have already cracked one water heater and the digital sensors do have limits.

I think radiators are just too dense for passive, you really need something much more open.

You already loose up to 5X the performance on some radiators just in the fans I'm testing with. That's why I was a little suprised to hear people say they like running fans down below 1000RPM.

If you want a high performance 5C delta, you're already down to 200 watts with the 1000RPM fans on this beast of a radiator. 500 RPM isn't going to be much better than 100 watts or so...you really need some air movement to get any heat transferred. I was already getting something like 85% of the air heated with 1000rpm fans, so passive will only be using the first few mm in radiator thickness to cool. Air has a terrible specific heat value, it stores very little energy, that's why it's so essential to keep some fan movement on it.

http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/TFC480-Thermal5.png

I'll see what happens with 100 watts...

Martinm210

07-05-2008, 12:15 PM

While waiting on a quick passive test, I stumbled upon this radiator test by liquidlux rad test, they did also compare the TFC360 to the PA120.3.

Here is the translated version:
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.forumdeluxx.de%2Fforum%2Fsh owthread.php%3Ft%3D496285&lp=de_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

Astratuner

07-05-2008, 01:22 PM

thanks Martinm210 for the very usefull info!

much apriciated mate!

now they need to invent some huge case :D

NaeKuh

07-05-2008, 01:33 PM

lol...

so if im reading this.

the 480GTX is still king. :D

Sorry fesser you guys better start dropping the price on that rad.

No, ur wrong. Wich case is slimmer than 14cm? and do u know how wide a 5.25" bay is? ;)

hehe sorry exa you asked, a HTPC case. A micro ATX case, and a few other cases. :rofl:

Zaskar

07-05-2008, 02:08 PM

lol...

so if im reading this.

the 480GTX is still king. :D

Sorry fesser you guys better start dropping the price on that rad.

hehe sorry exa you asked, a HTPC case. A micro ATX case, and a few other cases. :rofl:

But isnt the TFC better at lower speed fans? It performs about the same as the TC rads, but with a bit more time spent on the details (something many might not be willing to pay extra for, but after comparing a TC rad with a TFC one, I prob wont be buying a TC one again)

Most the tings Marci said he diddnt want to do to the TC rads due to the price raising higher Was done on the TFC ones, and as expected, with that higher price. Atleast people have a choice now for what they feel is worth it to them price wise.

eXa

07-05-2008, 02:18 PM

Martinm210

07-05-2008, 03:22 PM

eXa

07-05-2008, 03:39 PM

I knew fanless was useless. but less than 1000rpm is quite doable. im not convinced u need to go as low as 500tho.

Aldy402

07-05-2008, 06:59 PM

Err.. no... both the TC, the TFC and even the new MCRs all have non-standard spacing.

well after all that, there really isn't a "STANDARD" spacing anymore..

@Martin

thanks for your post.. do you have any idea of an ETA?

shachar2

07-05-2008, 11:59 PM

After nearly 3 hours of running a 100watt heat load I still have not leveled off at nearly a 20 degree delta.

I figured a 15-20 degrees delta in my rough calculations (just by looking at your tables)
will it get to more then 30?

30 degrees delta combined with summer heat of 30 degrees could be problematic. I think that a 20 degrees delta for passive cooling is fine

Sectorz

07-06-2008, 12:27 AM

Giannis86

07-06-2008, 12:42 AM

i have those rads and plan to test them..however its gonna be at the beginning of september as i am far from home and i need to replacemy dead gpu and get of a crystalfonz lcd for better temp logging..i will be ordering these parts in the summer so that i can begin immediately when i get back

NaeKuh

07-06-2008, 07:48 AM

Ok, enough of the "Passive" question, it just doesn't work for any radiator.

rofl define passive.

having your daughter run by the radiator really fast to bring drag is also considered passive. :rofl:

Martinm210

07-06-2008, 11:10 AM

When a PA120.3 vs TFC360 vs HWL360GTX Gen II ?

with Push and Push/Pull test

with low/medium/hight/extreme Fan :)
~50CFM/~80CFM/~110CFM/~240CFM :D http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/deaf12recgrh.html

Thx for this good test martin ;)
Sorry I don't have the 360GTX or the TFC360, but Giannis has them and is planning to test..:up:

I was just looking at that Delta fan, it may very well be the KING of FANS, it even has more pressure than their 76mm one. I might buy one just for fun, I have an AFB1212SHE here that I thought was a beast, but it's just a baby compared to that one. Imagine two of those in push/pull with shrouds on a GTX120 would probably cool just about anything.

rofl define passive.

No fans...:D

i have those rads and plan to test them..however its gonna be at the beginning of september as i am far from home and i need to replacemy dead gpu and get of a crystalfonz lcd for better temp logging..i will be ordering these parts in the summer so that i can begin immediately when i get back

Nice, I look forward to it..:up:

jonny_ftm

07-06-2008, 11:10 AM

Ok, enough of the "Passive" question, it just doesn't work for any radiator.

After nearly 3 hours of running a 100watt heat load I still have not leveled off at nearly a 20 degree delta.

Anyhow, you need fans...no doubt about it.

I still am suprised people use 500RPM fans, even with that you've cut the radiators performance down so much you'd have to run multiples for anything good on temps unless you're thermally throttling the processor or fans somehow.

My Q6600 at the OC on my signature runs on a MCR220-QP + PA120.3, all fans at about 5v (740 rpm). My CPU temps are about 63°C on full load Prime95 small FFT with a 27°C ambiant

At idle, 500 rpm is more than enough.
Also my rads are all external

Multiplying the rads for performance and silence is the way to go. And silence, the real one, at idle is a great add on

Martinm210

07-06-2008, 11:36 AM

My Q6600 at the OC on my signature runs on a MCR220-QP + PA120.3, all fans at about 5v (740 rpm). My CPU temps are about 63°C on full load Prime95 small FFT with a 27°C ambiant

At idle, 500 rpm is more than enough.
Also my rads are all external

Multiplying the rads for performance and silence is the way to go. And silence, the real one, at idle is a great add on

Absolutely, I'm just not sure everyone understands what multiply means.

The TFC and PA series were both around a factor of 3X between 1000RPM and 3000RPM.

So if you cut that down to 500RPM, you're only getting maybe 1/6th the performance, so you'd have to run 6X the number radiators to get the same performance as someone who is willing to run Ultra High speed fans.

The 480GTX happened to be a 5X performance factor difference between 1000RPM and 3000RPM.

So multiply means alot more than doubling the number of radiators for the same performance, it means "Several". I don't think that part is understood very well.

What I keep hearing is that "Quad" sizing is too big to fit in anything, and "1000RPM is too loud", and unfortunately you can't have both. Either you go for pure silence with extremely slow fans and go external with multiple radiators or you put the ear plugs in and strap on the noise makers...:D

I just can't stress enough how significant fan performance is to the radiator, yet I still see radiator selection threads where the fan is never mentioned.

Vapor

07-06-2008, 12:01 PM

I've always thought the fans are like the tires on a car.

jonny_ftm

07-07-2008, 12:09 AM

Absolutely, I'm just not sure everyone understands what multiply means.

The TFC and PA series were both around a factor of 3X between 1000RPM and 3000RPM.

So if you cut that down to 500RPM, you're only getting maybe 1/6th the performance, so you'd have to run 6X the number radiators to get the same performance as someone who is willing to run Ultra High speed fans.

The 480GTX happened to be a 5X performance factor difference between 1000RPM and 3000RPM.

So multiply means alot more than doubling the number of radiators for the same performance, it means "Several". I don't think that part is understood very well.

What I keep hearing is that "Quad" sizing is too big to fit in anything, and "1000RPM is too loud", and unfortunately you can't have both. Either you go for pure silence with extremely slow fans and go external with multiple radiators or you put the ear plugs in and strap on the noise makers...:D

I just can't stress enough how significant fan performance is to the radiator, yet I still see radiator selection threads where the fan is never mentioned.

Yes, but PCs IDLE most of the time, in majority except some people which are a minority.

While idle, slow fans are more than enough. All I can say, at 27°C ambiant, a Q6600 at 3.9GHz and 1.43v is well handled by an MCR220+PA120.3 at 750 RPM avearage fans, at full load

My next two loops setup will have the following: 1xPA120.2, 2xPA120.3, 1xTFC 480 if available soon and maybe an MCR220 if I have space :D

I'll give a feedback, in few months when done on results (all parts except the TFC480 are in my house ;), just a matter of time)

shachar2

07-07-2008, 02:00 AM

So if you cut that down to 500RPM, you're only getting maybe 1/6th the performance, so you'd have to run 6X the number radiators to get the same performance as someone who is willing to run Ultra High speed fans.

some people don't care about performance

shachar2

07-07-2008, 02:04 AM

a different question: will a mcp-350 / ddc 3.1 be enough to "power" this radiator and a cpu/gpu/nb/mosf water blocks?
same question for a 9x120 radiator

ThrustSSC

07-07-2008, 02:28 AM

Great review martin!
Any chance that you can test the Magicool Extreme Slim Profile 3x120/4x120, it look like a great performer : http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=200&products_id=23899.
Or maybe the EK-Supreme thermal tests on a quad core CPU.

Sectorz

07-07-2008, 02:40 AM

Sorry I don't have the 360GTX or the TFC360, but Giannis has them and is planning to test..:up:

I was just looking at that Delta fan, it may very well be the KING of FANS, it even has more pressure than their 76mm one. I might buy one just for fun, I have an AFB1212SHE here that I thought was a beast, but it's just a baby compared to that one. Imagine two of those in push/pull with shrouds on a GTX120 would probably cool just about anything.

No fans...:D

Nice, I look forward to it..:up:

If you can have 6 of 240CFM model thx for do a big test :D, me I imagine 6 of them on a 360GTX push/pull :eek:.

The must , I have already boost my 190CFM Delta to 17V and 24 :D but at 24V i have kill 3 cheap power supply (only the fan on it),I dont know what is the CFM of the fan at 24V but this is amazing to hears :D.

septim

07-07-2008, 03:41 AM

hmm maybe you guys want to send him said rads on loan for him to test out...

9*120 rad, need series 2 ddc with tops or RD30 pump for optimal running...

I think Martinm is gonna take a vacation for now, we can't expect him to slave for us the whole year, hehehe... lets all wish him a good, well deserved vacation when the day/week comes...

Giannis86

07-07-2008, 03:43 AM

some people don't care about performance

well this is XS and performance does count...at idle that might not be the case but when gaming id rather have some more noise from the fans than higher temps

a different question: will a mcp-350 / ddc 3.1 be enough to "power" this radiator and a cpu/gpu/nb/mosf water blocks?
same question for a 9x120 radiator

the TFC 480 has quite a low pressure drop according to martins testing..it should do the job good enough..
as about the 9x120, i can only think of the xtreme nova 1080 which tends to be very restrictive...

Martinm210

07-07-2008, 05:17 AM

Thanks guys!
Hope it's a useful review to help you figure things out.

a different question: will a mcp-350 / ddc 3.1 be enough to "power" this radiator and a cpu/gpu/nb/mosf water blocks?
same question for a 9x120 radiator

It's extremely low in pressure drop, you can use the Feser 360 I have in the estimator for now, it's close enough and I'll soon enough get this 480 curve added in there.:up:

disruptfam

07-07-2008, 06:04 AM

some people don't care about performance

:eek2::eek2::eek2:

I've killed for less :rofl:

shachar2

07-07-2008, 06:07 AM

:eek2::eek2::eek2:

I've killed for less :rofl:

kill me tenderly :)

shachar2

07-07-2008, 06:09 AM

the TFC 480 has quite a low pressure drop according to martins testing..it should do the job good enough..
as about the 9x120, i can only think of the xtreme nova 1080 which tends to be very restrictive...

so the tfc 480 or 2x480 I can pull it off (without the blocks it seems fine) but not with hardware labs 480 (too restrictive)
what about the Nova 1080? will I have flow with it and the dcc/mcp 350?

jonny_ftm

07-07-2008, 07:02 AM

some people don't care about performance

:eek2::eek2::eek2:

I've killed for less :rofl:

Let's look at it that way:

Xtreme performance at load, Xtreme Silence at idle :)

Martinm210

07-07-2008, 08:28 PM

so the tfc 480 or 2x480 I can pull it off (without the blocks it seems fine) but not with hardware labs 480 (too restrictive)
what about the Nova 1080? will I have flow with it and the dcc/mcp 350?

Not sure on the Nova 1080, but it appears to be assembled from normal 360's and I think a majority of the radiator restriction occurs at the plenum chamber entranaces to the radiator tubes, so it is likely not much different than running three regular radiators in series but I don't know...never looked at one...:shrug:

Martinm210

07-11-2008, 05:32 AM

FYI,
It looks like they are out and available now..:up:
http://www.feser-one.com/site/product_info.php?products_id=311

jonny_ftm

07-11-2008, 07:44 AM

FYI,
It looks like they are out and available now..:up:
http://www.feser-one.com/site/product_info.php?products_id=311

Anyone knows about delays when orders are sent to Feser company, for shipping to Europe? Maybe I'll wait till they are available at retailers.

Yes, I plan to get one of them, cause of Martin's tests :D

disruptfam

07-11-2008, 08:19 PM

pricing usd?

Locksley

07-11-2008, 10:29 PM

Interesting :clap:

I have a few questions about radiators in general and Feser.

1. Thin rads; what have they got going for 'em? Easy air flow?
2. Fan's static pressure must have an impact on low RPM's right? A fan without good static pressure will basically just shuffle air around it's blades.

Right now I am looking to buy the Black Ice GT 360 stealth but they do also carry the Feser Xchanger - Triple Radiator 360. Hmm, twice the price though but if I am mainly after silence that might be the choice, or is it?

Going with the Laing 655 D5 so the restrictiveness of HwLabs shouldn't matter too much.

Cheers!

septim

07-12-2008, 03:33 AM

1. thin rads like the mcr series are easier on the airflow vs BI stealth, also lower water restriction too...
fesser rads are almost same thickness with a PA rad...
if you find an MCR320, that would probably be the better choice VS stealth...

Martinm210

07-12-2008, 08:17 AM

Yeah, I had heard around $199US, but that might depend on who actually makes the order and resells to other vendors and what price they sell it for, etc.

Thin radiators have the advantage of lower price thinner section because they litterally have half the number of tubes and half the fin thickness. A slim radiator typically has 21mm of fin thickness and either 10 or 12 tubes for water to flow through. But this makes them generally slightly more restrictive and with the thinner fins don't keep in contact with the air as long as the double thickness types so they are not quite as efficient. The TFC480 uses two rows of 12 tubes for a total of 24 tubes that water is flowing through, so it's less restrictive than a thinner radiator and the double thickness squeezes out that last bit of performance from the air.

If you want to use low speed fans you want something optimized for low speed fans like the TFC rads or something with a lower FPI fin count.