WaterCooling is dead?Discuss.

[TheThreeDegrees]

Now no jibba-jabba!

If you calculate the costs involved in setting up a WC solution as opposed to running on air is it really worth it in terms of performance gains nowadays?

New core process's from Nvidia,Intel and Ati and I must ask the above:shrug:

[madmaxx]

there is nothing to discuss, water will ALWAYS cool better than air.

theres an old saying "speed costs money, how fast do YOU want to go?" ;)

[evil-98]

well from my stand point its just a preference regardless of the performance gain. true alot of the newer hardware will be just fine on air, performance alone isnt the main reason people move to water.

but i definitely do not believe that watercooling is dead

[Th3MadScientist]

anyone can do air...just slap a fan in your case and go, watercooling is more an art form where you have much more control over what components you choose and where they go.

[RickCain]

IMHO it comes down to water will cool slightly better than air but be a fraction of the noise level. Yes you can typically achieve similar overclocks but at a high noise cost with air cooling. Phase change cooling is required for true extreme overclocking.

My goal is to watercool everything that requires a loud fan. As long as people have similar requirements, water cooling will remain.

[lennox]

from what i've seen... watercooling is just now exploding. How could you possibly say it's dead? Manufacturers are even releasing hardware pre-installed with watercooling blocks. It's bigger than ever and the market is growing pretty fast right now...

[Asgard_thor]

Watercooling heats houses

/me looks at IBM :D

[Arni]

amdx2 + non oc =AC
Intel + OC = WC simply?:D

[p2501]

Oh I believe that watercooling absolutely isn't dead. If you want maximum performance without running the fans at speeds that make your ears bleed you just have to go water. Also, even high-end air can't cope with warmer climate if you're oc'ing. Third point would be the fact that just about every chip maker is going multi-core nowadays, for which watercooling just is the best... oh, and did you forget about g200/r700? 2 of em in one box just screams for watercooling. I absolutely don't think it's dead for a multitude of reasons.

[systemviper]

Shoelaces are dead, Tomorrow live on good morning TV....

[afX]

UMM... I do it for the cool UV tubes and all my friends saying: "cool man your computer is so fast and complicated, not to mention sexy."

[Polizei]

When you have an air cooler that can dissipate the heat that an octocore Nehalem puts out, let me know.

[gojirasan]

Shoelaces are dead
Thank god. Finally. My New Balance 473s are always coming untied at the worst possible moment.

As for the water vs air issue I would have to say that water, especially done right, is definitely NOT worth it in terms of bang for the buck. I spent north of $1000 for my system which is pretty similar to the systems that most people here have. That's more than my basic computer cost me. And I have been working on actually getting it running for like 2 months now. Today I have to spend some time trying to epoxy some nuts onto my radiator. I guess water cooling is more like a religion. Or an addiction or illness. Either you are a believer or you are not. Either you catch the disease or you don't. However, my understanding is that it *will* still allow you to overclock higher on a sustained basis. Most of those overclocks you see on air aren't for extended use. And from an engineering point of view it just doesn't seem possible that a single TRUE (tiny little guy) could give you anywhere near the cooling power of a Thermochill PA120.3 or Black Ice Xtreme 480 and a whole bunch of 38mm fans. And some of us have multiple radiators. My cooling system takes up more space than my entire computer.

[Polizei]

$1000 on watercooling? You over spent unless you're cooling a couple 9800GX2's and a quad core using PA120.3's or those 3x120 Feser rads, but you couldn't get a quad core and GX2's for under $1000, so what's the deal?

[Cptn Vortex]

I dont think it is Dead. I only started WC last december, and since then, I have introduced it to more than 5 people, who are now very very happy they have done so. Not only for the performance, but for they challenge, the task, and the thrill. It's a hobby, it's an Art, it is truly making something from nothing, and getting great results.

[Wiggy McShades]

gtx280 is suppose to be rather hot running. So i think in that case its worth it. I'm using a pa120.3 and an apogee gtx to cool my cpu and you are not going to find a better cooler thats this quite. Plus a phenom runs rather hot so it kinda needs the water cooling treatment. Now my 8800gts does not need the black ice stealth GT360 rad dedicated to it at all, that much is for sure but I'm leaving room for a gtx280 or 2.

[gojirasan]

Polizei, I'm not sure how it happened. Maybe it isn't quite $1000, but it sure seems like it. The expenses just never seem to end. Originally it looked like it was going to cost about $800 or maybe $700 I hoped. In the beginning before I had actually bought anything I was planning/hoping it would total to less than $400. I laugh at that now. I'd have to go collect all my invoices to get a real total. I think I spent at least $100 just on shipping. Maybe more like $150 or $200. $100 for 3 San Ace fans when you include shipping. 2 PA120.3s at probably $150 each when you include shipping. I bought the second one because I dropped and dented the first one. $100 for a DDC3.2 with petra top, which I put aside when I saw Martin's pump top testing after which I had to get a XSPC res top. Another $60 when you include shipping. I spent over $100 just on tubing including some mistakes with some tubing I didn't like like the Tygon silver stuff. $80 for fuzion top when you include the nozzles. $100+ just to properly cool a single graphics card. And I didn't even get a full cover block. I tried to go with ever other system: ramsinks (which kept falling off) and a unisink (which didn't fit). I even made my own BGA ram unisink. I bought a shroud for one of the PA120.3 rads at just over $20, which seemed expensive until I tried to make my own by heat bending aluminum stock from Mcmaster and realized it was cheap. At least $100 and another $60+ shipping for various accessories from mcmaster. Fasterners and aluminum for radiator legs and shim stock for the Dtek unisink which turned out not to fit over my swiftech MCW60. Have I mentioned all the fans I have? And fan controllers. Not just the San Ace but some Ultra Kazes and SFlexs and Zalmans, and TIM and thermal epoxy and copper BGA ramsinks and extra thermal tape and fat boy fittings and... Starting to get the idea? This isn't even a complete list. It's pretty easy to drop a grand on water cooling. And now I'm eyeing the Fuzion V2 and a GTX480 rad. And at this point I can justify almost any expense with a "in for a penny, in for a pound" sort of logic. After spending that kind of money what's another $20 or $50 or $100? But I'm not so far gone that I can't see the absurdity of all this. Is there some kind of clinic I can go to?

[N3it1]

I do it just for a hobby,thats all.I also like how it looks.

[Hijack]

Pump 1 DD-2/MCP355 w/XSPC Restop $140
Pump 2 DD-2/MCP355 w/XSPC Restop $140
Radiator 1 Danger Den Black Ice GTX Xtreme 360 $125
Radiator 2 Danger Den Black Ice GTX Xtreme 240 $100
Tubing 7/16 OD Tygone 8 ft $24
CPU Block D-Tek Fuzion V2 $65
NB Block EK-BN 780i $50
VGA Block 1 EK-FC8800 GTS Nickel Plated $121
VGA Block 2 EK-FC8800 GTS Nickel Plated $121
Mofset Blocks X 2 EK Mofset x2 $80
Radiator Fans X 5 Zalman ZM-F3BL $55


$1021. Not even that complicated a setup . Just a nice 2 loop. Add another loop, add another $400 or so, easily.

P.S... This doesn't even include barbs. $1000 is way easy to hit is my point.

[iboomalot]

$1000 on watercooling? You over spent unless you're cooling a couple 9800GX2's and a quad core using PA120.3's or those 3x120 Feser rads, but you couldn't get a quad core and GX2's for under $1000, so what's the deal?

that large of setup might as well buy a car rad and save 250-300.00

one much less 3 PA120s is about or more than a copper 3 row rad on ebay.

[RockfordFosgate]

Watercooling never dead if overclocking never dead.

[WhiteFireDragon]

for the op, where did you get WC is dead?? they wouldn't keep making new parts if it was dead. simple economics. when there's a supply, there will always be a demand.

and if you think about the physics of air cooling vs WC, water will always win because a low end radiator will have more surface area than a high end aircooled sink

[Polizei]

Polizei, I'm not sure how it happened. Maybe it isn't quite $1000, but it sure seems like it. The expenses just never seem to end. Originally it looked like it was going to cost about $800 or maybe $700 I hoped. In the beginning before I had actually bought anything I was planning/hoping it would total to less than $400. I laugh at that now. I'd have to go collect all my invoices to get a real total. I think I spent at least $100 just on shipping. Maybe more like $150 or $200. $100 for 3 San Ace fans when you include shipping. 2 PA120.3s at probably $150 each when you include shipping. I bought the second one because I dropped and dented the first one. $100 for a DDC3.2 with petra top, which I put aside when I saw Martin's pump top testing after which I had to get a XSPC res top. Another $60 when you include shipping. I spent over $100 just on tubing including some mistakes with some tubing I didn't like like the Tygon silver stuff. $80 for fuzion top when you include the nozzles. $100+ just to properly cool a single graphics card. And I didn't even get a full cover block. I tried to go with ever other system: ramsinks (which kept falling off) and a unisink (which didn't fit). I even made my own BGA ram unisink. I bought a shroud for one of the PA120.3 rads at just over $20, which seemed expensive until I tried to make my own by heat bending aluminum stock from Mcmaster and realized it was cheap. At least $100 and another $60+ shipping for various accessories from mcmaster. Fasterners and aluminum for radiator legs and shim stock for the Dtek unisink which turned out not to fit over my swiftech MCW60. Have I mentioned all the fans I have? And fan controllers. Not just the San Ace but some Ultra Kazes and SFlexs and Zalmans, and TIM and thermal epoxy and copper BGA ramsinks and extra thermal tape and fat boy fittings and... Starting to get the idea? This isn't even a complete list. It's pretty easy to drop a grand on water cooling. And now I'm eyeing the Fuzion V2 and a GTX480 rad. And at this point I can justify almost any expense with a "in for a penny, in for a pound" sort of logic. After spending that kind of money what's another $20 or $50 or $100? But I'm not so far gone that I can't see the absurdity of all this. Is there some kind of clinic I can go to?

Not everyone rushes out to new pump tops after already owning aftermarket tops. Tygon's price is outrageous. Dual loop is not necessary. San Ace prices are too high.

Research before buying would have saved you a lot of money and headache.

[iboomalot]

Pump 1 DD-2/MCP355 w/XSPC Restop $140
Pump 2 DD-2/MCP355 w/XSPC Restop $140
Radiator 1 Danger Den Black Ice GTX Xtreme 360 $125
Radiator 2 Danger Den Black Ice GTX Xtreme 240 $100
Tubing 7/16 OD Tygone 8 ft $24
CPU Block D-Tek Fuzion V2 $65
NB Block EK-BN 780i $50
VGA Block 1 EK-FC8800 GTS Nickel Plated $121
VGA Block 2 EK-FC8800 GTS Nickel Plated $121
Mofset Blocks X 2 EK Mofset x2 $80
Radiator Fans X 5 Zalman ZM-F3BL $55
-
Or this which is slightly less money
-
Pump 1 & 2 DD-2/MCP655 $130 (petra)
Swiftech MCRES-MICRO Hi-Flo Reservoir X 2 $40 (petra)
Radiator 1 Danger Den Black Ice GTX Xtreme 360 $110 (sidewinder)
Radiator 2 Danger Den Black Ice GTX Xtreme 240 $90 (sidewinder)
Tubing 7/16 OD Tygone 8 ft $24
CPU Block D-Tek Fuzion V2 $65
NB Block EK-BN 780i $48
VGA Block 1 EK-FC8800 GTS Nickel Plated $115 (copper 109 ea)
VGA Block 2 EK-FC8800 GTS Nickel Plated $115 (copper 109 ea)
Mofset Blocks X 2 EK Mofset x2 $80
Radiator Fans X 5 Zalman ZM-F3BL $55
Total = 872.00

cost eff. tubing + copper GPU sinks + YL fans would drop cost even more.

****edit****

since you didn't add in ram sinks you will have a quiet fan to cool the case thus you could save $$$ not doing the fets or 780i if a proper
heatsink is used on those items.

[Wiggy McShades]

Pump 1 DD-2/MCP355 w/XSPC Restop $140
Pump 2 DD-2/MCP355 w/XSPC Restop $140
Radiator 1 Danger Den Black Ice GTX Xtreme 360 $125
Radiator 2 Danger Den Black Ice GTX Xtreme 240 $100
Tubing 7/16 OD Tygone 8 ft $24
CPU Block D-Tek Fuzion V2 $65
NB Block EK-BN 780i $50
VGA Block 1 EK-FC8800 GTS Nickel Plated $121
VGA Block 2 EK-FC8800 GTS Nickel Plated $121
Mofset Blocks X 2 EK Mofset x2 $80
Radiator Fans X 5 Zalman ZM-F3BL $55


$1021. Not even that complicated a setup . Just a nice 2 loop. Add another loop, add another $400 or so, easily.

P.S... This doesn't even include barbs. $1000 is way easy to hit is my point.



tygone tubing? come on that stuff is a joke. Masterkleer is $0.49 a foot and i've used tygone before i personally saw no difference in quality.

[systemviper]

Exactly, I got my first duality and it was cut out for 2 PA 120.3's
So i looked at he prices... Man it was almost 150 for 1 - Thermochill PA 120.3
but a nice swiftech 120.3 is 50 at the egg, so I just had to figure out how to make the swiftech work.
No problem, I just can't see paying almost 150 for Thermochill PA 120.3, when i like the swiftech 120.3
I can't be getting 3times the cooling, NO WAY!
but I just purchased a 360.00
motherboard. so here or there, Extreme Computing is Extreme cost, no way around that!


I figure I have a nice GTO or Firebird that need work or my computer stuff.
For now it's the computers, but it helps to need a lot of horse power for work....

When my son's 13-14 we'll get that gto or firebird! :up:

[TheThreeDegrees]

Stay tuned on the topic.Nobody said WC is dead.:up:
It is intended as a thought provoking subject and there is no better place than right here on XS to discuss.

Everyone thusfar has put in valid reasons as to why they see WC as an existing and viable solution to better thermal performance from their systems nowadays.

That said I haven't given my reason's as to why I think WC is NOT dead.

1.Firstly when you look at the gallery of water cooled cases they are stunning works of art!
2.I have spent endless hours admiring my own rather amateur case.But you know what even for me after spending the past 6 months at it,the $600 or so has been thoroughly worth it.I have enjoyed every last minute of it.
3.And finally no money could substitute the fact that my adventure into water cooling has brought me to this forum and I have absouloutly had a fantastic time and a memorable one.

thanks again.
Fabio.

[gazmtk]

Far from DEAD!!
My Friends come over and see my rigs and instantly want one, I sit down with them and explain the costs involved .... lets just say 3 out of every 4 of my mates have had me knock up a WC rig for them, and another mate just had me order all his parts last night!
WC is worth it for the temps and silence alone, but for those pushing their rigs, well its the difference between a blown chip and a huge OC
Regards Gaz

[MomijiTMO]

I think it still has it's place and when the hot Nehalem is release, I expect a few people will come back. With the 45nm chips, you really don't need water cooling at all. However, many of us still run a Q6600 and these hot chips benefit from water greatly.

Plus I like my ears.

[NaeKuh]

why is this question always appearing now.

I see it in every forum.

Watercooling is not dead. In fact its the OPOSITE. The blocks and parts available now have never been so diverse.

KITS on the other had are dead. Because people have been doing smart things like "research" and planning. This all leads to one things.

Kits = Beginner, or they uber SuX0rZ. (ignoring Petra's Kits. those arent really kits, but a prepackaged custom)


If watercooling was dead, Eddie wouldnt freak out and pull his hair each time Nvidia or ASUS released a new chipset with funky holes.

Or a new GPU with funky mounting options.

:rofl:

[RADCOM]

watercooling 8 years+, back to plain air? Never:up:

[DRT-Maverick]

Has anyone noticed the trend of larger and larger, even supersized aircooling heatsinks? You're telling me watercooling is dead even though they're using 4x4" heatsinks attached to heatpipes to cool just the northbridge? Nah, honestly I think watercooling is the true future. Eventually cases will have a 220mm or 320mm radiator built into them, and computers will soon rely on watercooling, that's what I believe. I find it ridiculous using a 700g heatsink on a little board just becaues the CPU puts out craploads of heat. :\

The market needs to drop in price, but once it does I believe watercooling can catch on relatively quick.

[iboomalot]

humm so far nearly the same setup for 5 yrs with water cooling

only change I see is the CPU blocks have improved alot since I bought my Storm or my 6002 block.

only changes in 5 yrs is basically CPU blocks and I wouldn't have had to change from my 6002 other than trying new toys.

Heck my 6002 is only 4-6C hotter than a FUSION V2 so if I hadn't switched the 6002 to storm I would have used the same cooling setup

on amd xp2800 , athlon 3800+ , athlon64 -3800 , Conroe e6700

How many different heatsinks on air would you have bought??? 4

[twwen2]

I'm with NaeKuh (and the rest of you:p:). From my observations the industry is extremely healthy. There is so much to choose from, the market has never been so diverse. You might put this down to the fact that WC is becoming more accessible to the average Joe. I'm sure those two factors go hand in hand.

As for Water vs Air, obviously air will always be better bang-for-buck, but there's more to it (as everyone so far has pointed out). Lower noise levels, asthaetics, etc. It's more of a hobby for some than a logical choice.

I'm getting into WC because i'm looking forward to a challenge, not to mention all the other benefits mentioned previously:cool:

[SiGfever]

Watercooling is an addiction, but I am o-k with that. :D

[Sparky]

Dead? Heck no. In fact I've contemplated running a few big radiators, large pump, and a manifold so that I can WC all my crunchers once I have a rack. That would be sweet, cut down on all the noise.

Of course, this wouldn't happen anytime soon, need to get out of college, into my own place, and have a rack, and systems more worth watercooling, and crap like that first, none of which do I have...

[mrmaigo]

People PAY for bleeding edge all the time. And you've got to keep your OC'd quad-sli cool some how.

The real fact is no one engineers air cooling. That's why the two best coolers are shaped like bats and ninja stars, and people buy them because they look cool.

[leuler]

Everybody has their preference. And I know that the Orochi is an extreme
example.

But I'll be damned if I can understand why someone would mount
what looks like a small block engine on their processor :D

[iboomalot]

see pic above how the heck do you change ram without having to remove that monster???

[jadeskye]

WC has never been bigger, it's gotten so easy even i can do it! =D

[Boogerlad]

Pump 1 DD-2/MCP355 w/XSPC Restop $140
Pump 2 DD-2/MCP355 w/XSPC Restop $140
Radiator 1 Danger Den Black Ice GTX Xtreme 360 $125
Radiator 2 Danger Den Black Ice GTX Xtreme 240 $100
Tubing 7/16 OD Tygone 8 ft $24
CPU Block D-Tek Fuzion V2 $65
NB Block EK-BN 780i $50
VGA Block 1 EK-FC8800 GTS Nickel Plated $121
VGA Block 2 EK-FC8800 GTS Nickel Plated $121
Mofset Blocks X 2 EK Mofset x2 $80
Radiator Fans X 5 Zalman ZM-F3BL $55
-
Or this which is slightly less money
-
Pump 1 & 2 DD-2/MCP655 $130 (petra)
Swiftech MCRES-MICRO Hi-Flo Reservoir X 2 $40 (petra)
Radiator 1 Danger Den Black Ice GTX Xtreme 360 $110 (sidewinder)
Radiator 2 Danger Den Black Ice GTX Xtreme 240 $90 (sidewinder)
Tubing 7/16 OD Tygone 8 ft $24
CPU Block D-Tek Fuzion V2 $65
NB Block EK-BN 780i $48
VGA Block 1 EK-FC8800 GTS Nickel Plated $115 (copper 109 ea)
VGA Block 2 EK-FC8800 GTS Nickel Plated $115 (copper 109 ea)
Mofset Blocks X 2 EK Mofset x2 $80
Radiator Fans X 5 Zalman ZM-F3BL $55
Total = 872.00

cost eff. tubing + copper GPU sinks + YL fans would drop cost even more.

****edit****

since you didn't add in ram sinks you will have a quiet fan to cool the case thus you could save $$$ not doing the fets or 780i if a proper
heatsink is used on those items.

That is way far off. A decent watercooling system doesn't cost any where near as much as $800. You can get a d5 for $75, two mcr-320s for $114, some masterclear tubing for $10, a d-tek fuzion v2 for $65, a mcw60 for gpu, and other blocks you might need.

[Crankyhobo]

Saying that its dead makes me laugh. Even if people stopped wanting to make their systems go faster people would still water cool their computers, or their televisions, or their pets. Because people don't water cool because its financially efficient, every person has their reason and they're varied. Personally its a fun 'hands-on' project, i enjoy working on it, enjoy the challenge of making something unique, to feel like i have accomplished something. A burger costs $6.99, a ticket to the cinema is $12.00, you might skip that two hours of Hollywood entertainment and play with five feet of tygon for ten hours. Its all entertainment, and its all relative.

[Jimmer411]

watercooling isnt dead, the forums here just turned into the case mod forums

[Nate P.]

WC is dead for me, I went back to a TRUE.

[jspace]

Water cooling will die when people stop liking fun. Which is also when overclocking, baseball, music, art, television, cinema, apple pie, :banana::banana::banana::banana:, drinking, gambling, books, games, fashion, engineering, weightlifting, fitness, making noise, hanging out, driving, cruising, racing, fishing, hunting, football, sports, sex, drugs, talking, singing, dancing, advertising, construction, power tools, lighting, explosions, fireworks, fire, carpentry, masonry, metalworking, other stuff that possibly hasn't been invented yet, and the internet is no longer considered "fun".

Basically when we are all living in tubes for power/food/large scale computing for alien life forms/stasis is when someone stops finding things fun. Even then I think some people will enjoy the propaganda piped into our brains.

Honestly, this notion is as absurd as the "PC Gaming is Dead" theory that pops up every year.

[K3nii]

WC is not dead look how busy this section is :)

[Nate P.]

For me, WCing has nothing to do with fun, but it does have everything to do with cooling my computer. And honestly, I do not overclock high enough nor use my computer enough to benefit from the absurd price/performance ratio associated with it. I guess WCing can be fun at first, but it soon becomes tedious and cumbersome after you stop gaping at the sexiness of it.;)

[septim]

a good and stable OC without the dBs...

its really more for the enthusiast hobbyist who wants something more than simple stock noisy & whiny air coolers...

and what their wives tell them about their 24/7 hairdryer rigs (on air obviously) Turn that noisemaker off!!!

[Serra]

Polizei, I'm not sure how it happened. Maybe it isn't quite $1000, but it sure seems like it. The expenses just never seem to end. Originally it looked like it was going to cost about $800 or maybe $700 I hoped. In the beginning before I had actually bought anything I was planning/hoping it would total to less than $400. I laugh at that now. I'd have to go collect all my invoices to get a real total. I think I spent at least $100 just on shipping. Maybe more like $150 or $200. $100 for 3 San Ace fans when you include shipping. 2 PA120.3s at probably $150 each when you include shipping. I bought the second one because I dropped and dented the first one. $100 for a DDC3.2 with petra top, which I put aside when I saw Martin's pump top testing after which I had to get a XSPC res top. Another $60 when you include shipping. I spent over $100 just on tubing including some mistakes with some tubing I didn't like like the Tygon silver stuff. $80 for fuzion top when you include the nozzles. $100+ just to properly cool a single graphics card. And I didn't even get a full cover block. I tried to go with ever other system: ramsinks (which kept falling off) and a unisink (which didn't fit). I even made my own BGA ram unisink. I bought a shroud for one of the PA120.3 rads at just over $20, which seemed expensive until I tried to make my own by heat bending aluminum stock from Mcmaster and realized it was cheap. At least $100 and another $60+ shipping for various accessories from mcmaster. Fasterners and aluminum for radiator legs and shim stock for the Dtek unisink which turned out not to fit over my swiftech MCW60. Have I mentioned all the fans I have? And fan controllers. Not just the San Ace but some Ultra Kazes and SFlexs and Zalmans, and TIM and thermal epoxy and copper BGA ramsinks and extra thermal tape and fat boy fittings and... Starting to get the idea? This isn't even a complete list. It's pretty easy to drop a grand on water cooling. And now I'm eyeing the Fuzion V2 and a GTX480 rad. And at this point I can justify almost any expense with a "in for a penny, in for a pound" sort of logic. After spending that kind of money what's another $20 or $50 or $100? But I'm not so far gone that I can't see the absurdity of all this. Is there some kind of clinic I can go to?


Wait wait wait.

You say WC is too expensive because you:
1. Bought the most expensive line of radiator, dropped one, and had to buy another
2. You spent $100 on 3 fans, where most of us pay ~$4 Yate Loon at Petras.
3. You bought a top-end pump, then bought a new one because it offered a *slight* performance increase that you likely wouldn't see in temps anyway
4. Spent over $100 on tubing for a single system... I don't even know how that's possbile. I buy my tubing in 10ft increments for about $20, I don't know how much screwing up you'd have to do to run through $100 worth.
5. I don't know where you live, but your shipping costs are crazy. Given your purchases and willingness to re-buy high-end stuff, I'd say you likely opted for overnight shipping.
6. You also bought shrouds, fan controllers, etc.... in short, *every possible accessory*


So... no, your costs are not at all realistic. I bought a BIPIII (cost, maybe $40), a cheap but effective pump for maybe $60, and a fuzion block (another $60). Including tubing and extras, still under $200. Maybe a little over $200 with shipping. I have, since original investment, bought two new reams of tubing ($20-$25 each hit) and a new CPU cooler as well as GPU cooler, but those add-ons actually cost me less than most high-end air coolers would and change a little less frequently.

[kuhla]

I used to be crazy about the idea of watercooling and back then when I had a job I just passed it off all the costs as negligible. My computer is still watercooled but now that I don't have a job, I can't really afford upgrades and watercooling seems like it makes a lot more sense. If I had to the money and the time I bet the fun idea of it just being an art or a hobby would come back. It's just that time and money have dwarfed my enthusiasm of a year or so ago.

[Dark Prodigy]

Air cooling just can't look this sexy. ;)

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f164/DarkProdigy145/DSC_0007resize-4.jpg


And the cooling isn't bad either. :p:

[Xilikon]

For me, watercooling is a hobby which wouldn't become mainstream due to complications and cost issues. Like any hobby, it's the enthusiasts who fully embrace it so I fully agree with IanY. Do it fully or don't ;)

I can see spending over 1000$ but that's not only watercooling but case modding as well, which is what mine costed. I'm currently preparing a v2 of my project with a new GTX 260 or GTX 280, bigNg, Matrix Orbital and full wires sleeving to make it worth the MDPC gallery ;)

[jinsean]

The main reason I water cool is b/c whether @idle or load, I can keep all my fans @800-900RPM. This fact in conjunction w/ a dtek db1 and other select silent components, my ears thank me and even when I try to sleep the computer noise doesn't bother me.

I think eventually they might come up w/ a cpu cooler that is as big as a rad or maybe can hook into a rad like device via some magical heatpipe, but until then water cooling suites my needs.

Plus I get to play w/ cool power tools I would have never touched :D

[gojirasan]

@Serra:
I never said water cooling is too expensive. I just don't see how anyone can say it can compete in terms of value with air cooling. It's just ridiculous. I admit that your case is an extreme one. You were quite willing to sacrifice performance. I wonder how much better your temps are than a TRUE.

1. Yup.
2. They are damn good fans and fans are the heart of the system, really the most important component next to the radiator itself. They are where the rubber meets the road, the equivalent of a TRUE and their fan choice for an air cooler. If you are not going to spend money here then you may as well not go with water. Again for practicality a TRUE and a stock GPU cooler can't be beat. Water is all about going for the kill.
3. Actually I didn't buy a new pump. Just a new pump top. Yes. that was a mistake. I should have done more research before buying the Petra top. Well I did do research but it was obviously dated.
4. I bought enough tubing to last me for the rest of my watercooling life because my favorite tubing is no longer going to be manufactured. It is already unavailable in certain colors and soon it won't be available at all.
5. I live near Boston. My shipping costs were only high because I placed so many orders. Order a $20 part and pay $10 shipping. That means 50% of your cost is in shipping for that item. And for people who live outside the US (as I will be doing soon), the shipping cost is even more outrageous. If you want all state of the art parts you're going to have to order from more than one place, usually several at least.
6. I didn't even come close to buying ever accessory available, but I did buy a lot.


So... no, your costs are not at all realistic.
They are realistic. They are just not necessary. I made some mistakes and changed my mind about some things and placed too many small orders. And it cost me dearly. I'm confident that I am not the only new water cooler to make mistakes. But in their optimism people never make any budget allowances for it.

I never said it wasn't possible to build a water cooling system for $200-$300, but I don't think it's possible to build a good one. One with significantly better performance than a TRUE will cost more, but only a couple hundred more and it's well worth it if you've got it. Save some money in other places, like on computer components you will be upgrading in 6-12 months anyway. And the only reason I was willing to spend anywhere near what I did is that I only had to do it once. Most of the recurring costs are no higher than air: a new block for each new cooled component. Pumps and fans and radiators etc all last a long long time. Most people probably spend a few hundred dollars less than I did, but I would guess the average system here that uses the approved "best" components costs $500-$600 when all invoices are added up.

The scary part is that I was actually trying to save money, even though I was shooting for best-in-class parts. I didn't even go all out. No double loops or full cover VGA blocks or pumps in series etc. Still, I am aware that my budget was on the high end of things. The point I was trying to make to someone who was considering going water for the first time is that it is not always easy to spend only what you originally plan for a budget. Your project can go over budget pretty easily and there are lots of little expenses that people may not take into account. Hell, I'm about to by some taps from mcmaster so as to properly tap my radiator. I didn't plan for that. It's all too easy to get addicted to cool.

I don't regret water cooling. Even given the expense and the fact that I spilled water all over my motherboard twice before I even finished setting up the system. So much for that "there is no reason for the water to ever get onto your system" stuff. Of course both times I was draining my loop. The system was off. And it was just fresh distilled water. So it's probably fine. If I had some kind of leak while my system was running, then, I might give up water cooling as not being worth the risk. But that hasn't happened. And I'm taking some precautions to prevent that (exterior pump, res, rad placement, soft sticky undersized tubing, spring clamps with fewer failure modes). I'm not about to sell all my stuff. I probably never will. I've wanted to do water cooling since the 90s when the only blocks were DIY, cutting off PVC caps and sealing them directly to CPU dies (direct die cooling), stuff like that. I could see that things were primitive and I was wary about the whole water + electronics thing, but I could also see its engineering elegance. Now we have vendors to make everything for us and they do so very very well, but there is a price. Water cooling is a very expensive way to cool your computer and the and heat pipe coolers like the TRUE do a pretty damn good job and watering the GPU doesn't really help you get higher clocks without voltmods (it's just for silence/longevity). Of course, for silence water really can't be beat. I wasn't expecting the (louder DDC) pump to be quite as quiet as it is. For silence it really has even more value than for overclocking or engineering correctness reasons. With rad tech nowadays you could even go completely passive, but I don't see the point with the pumps being as quiet as they are.

But there are a lot of people for whom water cooling makes no sense. Hell for me it doesn't even really make sense because I am planning to be living in distant third world countries for the next few years. I'll be lucky if I can even get through customs with my PA120.3 and other water cooling contraptions. Those customs guys are going to be sure that I am completely crazy. And if my DDC fails a replacement is going to be very far away indeed. The shipping (and duty/VAT) might be more than the cost of the pump itself. In fact if nearly any cooling component fails I would have to go back to air, probably for months, until I could get a replacement again.

[Sparky]

@Serra:
I never said water cooling is too expensive. I just don't see how anyone can say it can compete in terms of value with air cooling. It's just ridiculous. I admit that your case is an extreme one. You were quite willing to sacrifice performance. I wonder how much better your temps are than a TRUE.

Triple rad and a fuzion and a decent pump should easily get him better temps than a TRUE. That is a lot of rad for just a CPU, then when adding the GPU, well, we all know how much cooler a GPU runs on water than on air, and great reduction on noise.

I'm sticking with water, something fun about it :D I need to clean out my system again though, my UV dye disappeared and the water went perfectly clear :confused: Maybe I should just bite the bullet and get UV tubing so I don't have to mess with the dye fading and clogging stuff anymore... Too bad there is none in 7/16 ID tho :(

[Xilikon]

Well, I'm now tempted to have a challenge to build a WC setup for my HTPC for under 200$ and no crappy parts ;)

Something like a MCR220, MCP655 stock, Fuzion v2, T-Line and Masterkleer tubing for a Q6600 overclocked to

[edgeX]

Now I'm bummed, my first attempt at H2O and now its dead GEEZ. I also have about $1000.00 in H2O parts, Which isn't all that hard to spend if your going with a dual loop.

[oerekum]

Uh. I think about 99% of the replies here indicated that it is far from dead, so I don't know where you got the idea that it's dead.

[DRT-Maverick]

I think it's just healthy conversation and debate. :o Haven't seen the community spring on a thread like this one in awhile. :)

[MomijiTMO]

$4 for a Loon. Holy cow I'm paying $13 @ GamMods and that is the lowest price I've seen them.

[Xilikon]

If all you want is to have a great discussion thread (and somewhere to warm you if you are cold), make one with this title : "Aluminium is godly, why don't we use it ?"...

[SiGfever]

If all you want is to have a great discussion thread (and somewhere to warm you if you are cold), make one with this title : "Aluminium is godly, why don't we use it ?"...

There is nothing wrong with aluminum, it makes great beer cans. :D

[migueld]

If the market is any indication Water Cooling is BLOOMING. There have been so many new CPU blocks released last year and this year it's crazy. We've never had such variety of blocks ever. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

And since the industry is moving to quad core CPUs and octo core CPUs, I think water cooling will be around for a loooooonggg time.

[TheThreeDegrees]

I am a performance junkie.
Doesnt matter if is cars/bikes/women or computers when I reach my hand into my pocket I want a thrill!

There were a couple of events recently that triggered me to ask this question.
I moved from a Q6600 G0 to an E8500 dual core and it was shocking to notice that the new 45NM's do not appear to fluctuate temps as the old Q6600 used to.
Also with that,a friend of mine with a waterchiller has recently purchased a E8500 himself and he's an overclocker more than me,but he's finding it difficult to justify the chiller as he doesn't need to throw as much v.core at the E8500

I think that in terms of bang for buck there has to be some serious questions asked as to whether dropping $400/$500 on a WC solution for "performance" is really justifiable.
I mean nobody and it doesnt matter who you are likes to know that a $50 air cooler could potentially spank your water blocks ass when it comes to achieveing an overclock:eek:

Just as an analogy:
You have all by now heard about Solid State Drives:
Drop $400 on one of those bad boys and your gonna see and feel the difference.
Drop $400 dollars on a WC setup and the performance increase is nothing to shout about.

The best we can hope for is ambient temps.So where is it going?
Unless they come up with a solution that can maintain my proc at ambient or even a couple of degrees higher during a stress test then I have to say that I will be investing my time and money into other areas of my PC build.
And believe me I have tried!;)

[MomijiTMO]

As someone who recently purchased all my wc gear in 1 go, it was $300 more than a top of the line ac setup. I went with the RS360 which isn't the top of the line radiator. It is expensive but I did it for the fun of it.

[h1ms3lf]

Air cooling just can't look this sexy. ;)
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f164/DarkProdigy145/DSC_0007resize-4.jpg

.. but still, there is no WC performance without air cooling (fans) :up: right?!

[septim]

you mean undervolted and quieter fans...

[TheThreeDegrees]

Now thats what I'm talking about!!

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/04/a-cold-shower-f.html

Good old big blue:up:

[iandh]

Why I watercool:

1. I enjoy it. It is at least a somewhat time consuming hobby depending on how much you like to tinker with things.

2. Large CPU coolers irritate me. Most decently performing GPU coolers have either a loud fan, or much like the best CPU coolers, are awkwardly large and obstruct your access to jumpers, headers, and slots on your mobo. Watercooling allows you to move the dissipating surface to an area away from where you work the most in your system. That just plain makes sense. This obviously does not apply to those that run blocks on everything, but I personally cool only CPU and GPU, and very occasionally chipset depending on the board.

3. I run all of the fans in my system at 800rpm. On a hot summer day maybe 1000rpm at most. I have seven identical 120mm fans in my system, and even all seven of them running at 1000rpm are nothing compared to the noise level of just the stock intel cooler.

4. I live in a hot area, and can not afford the luxury of pushing it to the edge with air. If I want to really OC and secure the lifetime of my hardware, water is the ticket.

5. Regardless of whether you can not hit a higher max OC with water, you still will most definitely improve the lifetime of your hardware. In my experience lower temps mean higher stable clocks at a given voltage, and lower voltage for a given target clock means longer lived and more stable hardware.

[septim]

well said...

[IanY]

First of all, you don't crap on water cooling in a liquid cooling forum. Its like saying GWB is dead in a conservative forum, or Obama is dead in a liberal forum. It makes no sense.

The whole cost-to-value proposition is ridiculous. There are a whole lot more factors and considerations than performance per unit dollar. If you want to measure on that terms, then its downright ludicrious to use a PC to play silly computer games. A used PS/2 costs at most $75. Last time I checked, you can have a ton of fun on that, and you can hook that up to a big screen. Why is there a need to buy multiple video cards?

There are so many intangible factors involved here.

[Flip_Lx]

MCR220 $35
New block $50 (currently running an old storm same price)
Swiftech 350 + XSPC restop $90
5ft tubing $3
3 globalwin fans $24
Compression Fittings $40
Total $202+say $30total in shipping (or $280 if you want to include the cost of replacing a 5 yr old block. or you can add $10 more to make it a mcr320 and say what another 40 for a vc block so $320 maybe $400 if you wanted to add nb/sb or had sli/cf)

Honestly the "worst" part about water cooling is the cost of compression fittings, things cost so much more than you'd think they would. Granted my setup is not "top of the line", hell even my rig isn't "top of the line" but my temps like this vs my temps on air in a Texas summer (ie. the coolest its been this week midday was 92*F) are much better and i also don't have to have my ac on full blast 24/7

Cost effective? not always the case. Worth it for me? Yes. Worth it for many others? Yes but obviously everyone. Just seems like you opted for the best of the best buildup and those never come cheap. You bought the ferrari to go fast and i bought the mustang gt and bolted on everything.

[lowfat]

$4 for a Loon. Holy cow I'm paying $13 @ GamMods and that is the lowest price I've seen them.

Last year in Canada there was a store selling them for $2.25 a piece :p:


And WC definitely isn't dead for me, I've been doing it on and off for ~ 4-5 years and always go back to water.

[NaeKuh]

Well, I'm now tempted to have a challenge to build a WC setup for my HTPC for under 200$ and no crappy parts ;)

Something like a MCR220, MCP655 stock, Fuzion v2, T-Line and Masterkleer tubing for a Q6600 overclocked to

you cant.

Your used to the nicer stuff. The cheap stuff will bother you to no ends.

Trust me, theres a reason why i cant go back to single pumps setups. :P :rofl:


Okey lemme just end this thread with this final note.

Is watercooling dead?

Okey, while you guys on air, are going OMG!!! i got 3.7ghz on AIR, and LOADED temps @ 71C. Well, on water, this isnt awesome, its a PROBLEM. I load @ 50's @ 3.7ghz on my quad.

71C Load = Awesome for AIR, Problem on water. [depending on your setup]

While your GPU's are loading up @ 85C and your going WOW its quiet cuz its only making 25DB of noise on full fan speed!

Im going OMG your GPU @ LOAD is HELLA HOT because mine makes about 15dB of noise pump side, and another 20dB of noise on the fans, with the ADDED cooling of my GPU's loading at 40C.

So if my GPU's were loading at 85C on water, no this isnt awesome its a PROBLEM.


You wanna try killing exotic cooling? Go after TEC's first. OR better yet, the stupidist company in the world that decided to MIX both water and TEC. COOLIT :D

They dont make sense anymore.