Project "Fuel Injected" Stacker - 100% braided stainless aircraft hose

[WonderSausage]

http://www.pcdominion.com/images/FIPC-24.jpg

Link to my full post with lots more photos in the Case forum:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185879


WS

[aspire.comptech]

Purdy...

[Sly Fox]

Wow, that's really sexy.

Any other notable mods or custom things that relate to that theme?

[Waterlogged]

Nice!

...too bad you committed cardinal sin #1....aluminum. Those fittings are anodized, which offer zero protection against corrosion.

[Loser777]

That's actual hose and not just tube sleeve right?

[mike8913]

I can't wait for the aluminum flamers to rise again!!

[sirheck]

Nice!

...too bad you committed cardinal sin #1....aluminum. Those fittings are anodized, which offer zero protection against corrosion.


Those fittings work just fine in automobiles.
They have the same coolant running thru them.

[sirheck]

WS!

That looks nice.

[zanzabar]

I can't wait for the aluminum flamers to rise again!!

they have a rubber tube inside, but the fittings are suspect

[WonderSausage]

They're specially hard-anodized and used in cars all the time with mixed metals, plus the res has a sacrificial anode.

In any case it's been running for months without the slightest sign of corrosion using 5% pentosin.

When you say "anodized [offers] zero protection against corrosion" I assume you mean galvanic because clearly anodizing is specifically done to protect against corrosion. Honestly this galvanic hysteria is overblown, in reality unless you're using crappy parts with poorly finished or scratched surfaces there is no need for concern. I have one mixed system that ran 4+ years on a server (copper block, Koolance Exos with aluminum radiator) with zero sign of corrosion.

[STEvil]

Those fittings work just fine in automobiles.
They have the same coolant running thru them.

Actually they have a 60/40 (approximate) mix of Glycol based Antifreeze most of the time, and the hoses and fittings you have used are probably meant for oil/hydraulic lines anyways (no corrosion concerns).

[Waterlogged]

Those fittings work just fine in automobiles.
They have the same coolant running thru them.

True, but the anti-freeze/anti-corrosion mix is @ least 50%. The mix we use is far less. Also,those fittings are used for racing applications in most cases, and racing engines are torn apart after every race or heat.


I can't wait for the aluminum flamers to rise again!!

And with good reason.

[Doc PL]

Nice project - very nice.
I know that here people are very sensitive to aluminium, even allergic.
However if one uses anticorosion additives or some car radiator fluid there should not be any problem.
Personally I mixed Innovatek aluminium Fass-O-Matic and aluminium HDD waterblock with copper radiators and waterblock. As a fluid I used glycoshell (car radiator fuid) mixed with some deminaralysed water and UV additive. After one year when I checked components I found ........ nothing, blocks and res looked just fine no signs of corrosion.
So again WS nice piece of work - congrats.

[Waterlogged]

They're specially hard-anodized and used in cars all the time with mixed metals, plus the res has a sacrificial anode.

In any case it's been running for months without the slightest sign of corrosion using 5% pentosin.

When you say "anodized [offers] zero protection against corrosion" I assume you mean galvanic because clearly anodizing is specifically done to protect against corrosion. Honestly this galvanic hysteria is overblown, in reality unless you're using crappy parts with poorly finished or scratched surfaces there is no need for concern. I have one mixed system that ran 4+ years on a server (copper block, Koolance Exos with aluminum radiator) with zero sign of corrosion.

Do you realize that even tightening the threads you've scratched the anodizing? Yes, even hard coat scratches. I saw anodized parts every day for 12 years and very few (maybe 3% out of thousands of parts) ever came back from the platers 100% perfect...and this was from 3 different plating companies. They all had some kind of little nick here or there from either being removed from the vat they were anodized it or shipping and then there's assembly to worry about.

4 years huh? Either your full of something or you got very lucky...or was it massive maintenance? Change the fluid often enough and you can stave off the effects of corrosion for quite a while.

[filthysanchez]

You could just nickel plate everything if it does happen, no? I know on the the apogee gtx's plating wore through, but it's got a lot more pressure going through the block than the fittings/res

[begrip]

very nice work

[MomijiTMO]

If they want to use aluminum parts against our advice, let them. It's like the guy that wants to run 1.65vCore on his E8500. Plus they said they have a sacrificial anode in the res.


The tubing looks fab. What do you have in your res and how often do you need to replace it? Keep us posted on how things go =p.

[Waterlogged]

That's actual hose and not just tube sleeve right?

Just saw your post.

If I'm not mistaken, this is what he used.

http://www.russellperformance.com/mc/hose/proflex_prorace.shtml

[p2501]

Just saw your post.

If I'm not mistaken, this is what he used.

http://www.russellperformance.com/mc/hose/proflex_prorace.shtml

If this is the hose he used then there should be no problem, it clearly states it's for use as water line too (and I highly doubt that they use the same water/antifreeze mix in race engines, I would say it's less for higher heat transfer performance). IMO it just looks awesome! :up:
Nice job, I wonder if you paid through the nose for the parts.. :)

[Waterlogged]

If this is the hose he used then there should be no problem, it clearly states it's for use as water line too (and I highly doubt that they use the same water/antifreeze mix in race engines, I would say it's less for higher heat transfer performance). IMO it just looks awesome! :up:
Nice job, I wonder if you paid through the nose for the parts.. :)

Please show me where I stated the hose was the problem...:shrug: It's the fittings that are alum. You also missed the point about race engines being pulled apart much more frequently than our loops (though, that's debatable with some ppl). Street cars (even high performance which is where these would be used) run @ least a 50/50 mix. Race cars would indeed likely run a lesser mix but it would still be above what we use because anti-freeze also raises the boiling point of water in a pressurized closed loop such as in an automotive engine.


For anyone else that wishes to chime in, please, I beg you, know what your talking about before opening your mouths. I've built my own engine, wrenched on my own cars (I even used SS braided Teflon hose and some of Russell's fittings for my power steering unit), worked for a semi major mid-west/east coast auto parts store (now out of business) for 5 years, was a machinist for 12 years, and have been WCing my PC's since 2003. I think I have the life experience to know what the heck I'm talking about here.

[p2501]

Indeed I misunderstood as I thought the hose comes prefitted with these kind of fittings.

But don't take an misunderstanding as a chance to tell me to shut up kay? Who the fsck are you, god or something? Because you have your "life experience" you have the right to tell ppl to shut up because you're the only one who knows it right? Just chill man and try to use your "life experience" to try to understand other people. :down:

[sirheck]

In my w/c,ed sys=a pa120.3 i use 4 fl oz of antifreeze and maybe a cup and a half of water and my sys is full. When i drain my sys it is about 2 to 2 1/2
cups total of fluid.

I have the CPU,NB,GPU in the loop but do not run a t-line or res.

Im not sure about the exact mix but its probably close to 30/70%.

90% of cars today use (ALL) aluminium radiators.
I have a little bit of experience with cars as well.
(17 years ASE certified auto-tech).

Comepared to cars, computer wc,/ing is a breeze.
You dont get the pressure or thermal variances nor do you
have to worry about electrolysis.

[LogAn'sRun]

Yes, temps may remain the same, and maybe the OP put some effort into it, but so what? And yeah, there's some alu in his system, but he knows the risks he's taking. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it is his.
What I like about XS is that it's suppossed to be an 'open' place where everyone can be accepted here, but it seems that we've run into a lot of bashing lately. Perhaps you don't like the system, but can't you at least appreciate it? I don't seem to see anyone bashing this thread (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=175508&highlight=mithril) and do you think everything there is done for 'performance'? I think both have pretty s[l]ick looking rigs and I can appreciate the amount of effort that's involved in building one. No, not everyone who posts or lurks at XS is looking to bleed that last .oo1c out of their system, or get the last .03ghz out of their quad, but it still makes for a great community anyways right?

Op- nice system, sweet res. Keep it up!

[WonderSausage]

Exactly, Logan's.

You notice there is a PCP&C 1KW power supply in the system? Want to know why I even own a PCP&C 1KW power supply? I bought it specifically because Xtremeystems, while populated mostly by helpful, friendly people, has a significant sub-community of knee-jerk paranoiacs.

I couldn't ever post about a problem with a system build without a bunch of these people immediately saying my power supply was insufficient, even when it was an incredibly stable unit like a SeaSonic M12-700. I actually bought the PCP&C 1KW just so I could say truthfully at the start of the thread that I was using that PS, otherwise the thread would devolve into power-supply hysteria. Never mind that there is virtually no system outside of quad SLI that an M12-700 won't run.

I've found that this minority of paranoiacs won't read fine print like the fact that I have a sacrificial anode, they will just pile on about mixing metals regardless of anything I say. I could point out that I'm a water-cooling pioneer from the Pentium Pro days and have built dozens of systems. I actually did point out that I had a mixed-metal system running 4+ years on a server. No, none of that is taken into account, because mixing metals is like killing babies to these people.

A big THANKS though to the majority of the community who praised my hard work and vision on this build!

[WonderSausage]

If I'm not mistaken, this is what he used.

http://www.russellperformance.com/mc/hose/proflex_prorace.shtml

Yep, that's exactly the hose.

[SiGfever]

Excellent job! :up: :up: :clap: :clap:

[Canadmos]

Your build looks awesome! The one thing I don't like about it, is the radiator hanging off the side of the case. That reservoir and it holders look great though!

As far as the whole aluminum war is concerned, as long as you know what you are doing etc etc etc, then you should be able to do whatever the hell you want without having other elitist tools forcing their 'ways' down peoples throat at every opportunity.

[Eddie3dfx]

Gorgeous Job on the computer and the components. Not sure about the aluminum part, but everything else looks beautiful.

[STEvil]

Exactly, Logan's.

You notice there is a PCP&C 1KW power supply in the system? Want to know why I even own a PCP&C 1KW power supply? I bought it specifically because Xtremeystems, while populated mostly by helpful, friendly people, has a significant sub-community of knee-jerk paranoiacs.

I couldn't ever post about a problem with a system build without a bunch of these people immediately saying my power supply was insufficient, even when it was an incredibly stable unit like a SeaSonic M12-700. I actually bought the PCP&C 1KW just so I could say truthfully at the start of the thread that I was using that PS, otherwise the thread would devolve into power-supply hysteria. Never mind that there is virtually no system outside of quad SLI that an M12-700 won't run.

I've found that this minority of paranoiacs won't read fine print like the fact that I have a sacrificial anode, they will just pile on about mixing metals regardless of anything I say. I could point out that I'm a water-cooling pioneer from the Pentium Pro days and have built dozens of systems. I actually did point out that I had a mixed-metal system running 4+ years on a server. No, none of that is taken into account, because mixing metals is like killing babies to these people.

:stick:

No, we just dont understand why people still do it when its so easy to NOT do it and just avoid all the issues.


A big THANKS though to the majority of the community who praised my hard work and vision on this build!

Sure :shrug:

[coolmiester]

:stick:

No, we just dont understand why people still do it when its so easy to NOT do it and just avoid all the issues.



Sure :shrug:

People have been telling us to stop smoking for years with much worse consequences than mixing metals but me and many millions still smoke...........our choice!

He seems old and wise enough to know right and wrongs so why don't we let him make his choice :rolleyes:

[Kilyin]

I generally dislike most external setups but you made it look better than most that I've seen. Nice job.

[BlueAqua]

Good job man. A lot of people here worry about mixing metals but honestly by the time it's corroded it's time for an upgrade anyways.

I love the hoses, very very nice.

[biftek.]

Yeah I have to agree the big "worry" about mixing metals is ridiculous anymore, and just way overblown.
Boo :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing hoo about the aluminum connectors, go cry a noncorrosive river.

Nice system mate, I love the tubing. Great work! Looks damn sexy.

[iowamoe300]

The hoses look beautiful wondersausage. I honestly believe the aluminum thing is overhyped. Long as you use fluid with proper anti-corrosives you are good to go. I have ran my swiftech apogee gtx with the dreaded aluminum top for a year and recently when I upgraded, I inspected everything and it was shiny as the day I got it. And this was with a Koolance aluminum radiator to boot. Very good work!

[Pedalmonkey]

yes i agree it is beautiful. and yes you have found a way around it. its just some of the guys, hence waterloggeds pics, have had bad experiences and we are also looking at performance per dollar. that hose does nothing to increase performance yet it adds alot of extra care and maintanence. we like to use our computers once and a while too. I'm not bashing on anyone either way, im just saying that the bickering is rediculouse. yes there are ways around it, and yes it does create problems, happy?

and i did think XS was about that extra .1C and that extra .03 GHZ.

[LogAn'sRun]

. . .
and i did think XS was about that extra .1C and that extra .03 GHZ.

I think I just said not everybody. ;) I want to get as much as I can from my system too, but I'm also trying to make it look good. I just don't understand the negative comments some ppl have the second you change a black fan to a UV one. . .(you get my point)

[rangerone7669]

that looks awsome. i wouldnt do it in my rig, but it does look good. well done

[mike8913]

Wonder Sausage, don't worry about all these naysayers regarding the aluminum mixing. It's like getting a spec of dirt on huge wedding cake: they'd throw it away instead of removing the speck.

I love how yu system looks and I was wondering if you could tell me more about the anode you installed, i'm curious how you have that setup.

[stocius]

Pretty sweet!!! Looks elegant. Don't let the haters bring you down.

[DavidNJ]

Mega overkill...those are rated at 300psi if they are the real thing, typically used for oil lines running at upto 60psi and temps to 120C. Our stuff is typically running under 10psi and nearly always under 20psi, at close to room temperature. Not using clear hoses makes bleeding more difficult.

[Soulwind]

I have the CPU,NB,GPU in the loop but do not run a t-line or res.


How are you filling/bleeding/topping-off/etc a loop that doesn't
have a t-line OR a res?

(just curious, I really don't know how you'd be able to do it)

For the OP, while I too am a "no mixed metals" disciple, I have to say
that's a damn sexy setup :clap:

[sirheck]

How are you filling/bleeding/topping-off/etc a loop that doesn't
have a t-line OR a res?

(just curious, I really don't know how you'd be able to do it)

For the OP, while I too am a "no mixed metals" disciple, I have to say
that's a damn sexy setup :clap:


I have a couple of ways.
1-Use syringe thru the bleed screw on the pa120.3
2-Pull a vaccum to about 10 to 15 inches(which also checks for leaks)
If it holds vaccum for say 30 seconds there should be no leaks.

[rogard]

Mixed metals aside - it does look really really sweet!!

The only thing that I dont like is the radiator placement :(

[Xilikon]

We may be XS and will risk a lot testing stuff to separate the best from the bad. We are also considered a reference place by a lot of watercooling newbies and the last thing we want to is to see them think it's ok to mix metals then get a mess on their hands.

The big amount of knowledge come at a price and this is to make sure everyone is well informed of the risks. in 99% of the cases, mixing metals = dumb idea, especially when we have more than enough choice of watercooling parts to avoid using aluminium. I do agree with those who are concerned about mixing them but if you want to take the risk, please do so with a nice disclaimer ;)

Some is concerned about the bashing of aluminium in loops. I'm concerned about spreading some misinformations that aluminium is ok ;)

[Tile]

I really like the idea and the execution. The galvanic corrosion can be prevented by using a good anticorrosive fluid.

[Webster]

I actually bought the PCP&C 1KW just so I could say truthfully at the start of the thread that I was using that PS, otherwise the thread would devolve into power-supply hysteria.

Lying would have been a cheaper alternative.

HOWEVER, your build does look very nice, and is more aestetically pleasing than old tygon tubing (to me at least). Good innovation.

[Boogerlad]

excellent job! i like it.

[Xilikon]

Why are you complaining about the hoses again?
Unless your dumb enough to lay it right up against the electronic part in question there is no issue.
That's the equivalent of saying don't use a metal case, because it could cause a short.

And NaeKuh, I respect you, a lot.
But seriously we all understand the dangers of mixing metals, quit posting about it in here, you guys already made your point.


There are more dangers than corrosion, and braided hoses, when it comes to WC'ing IMO.

Everyone is free to say what they think but stop telling guys to stop posting something... If you hate hearing about the dangers of mixing metals, go post somewhere else.

Why do I feel the LC forum is now ridden by n00bs with no brains and steel balls ??? This is the most disappointing thing I noticed lately. Too bad Cathar isn't around to reinstall brains into those n00bs !

[Aldy402]

damn IanY you should change your title to "Xtreme Hater"

[mike8913]

It's not about mixing aluminum in a copper line or reducing performance. And you guys are no longer just informing people: you're preaching, and in a way that says only you are right. So here's the point: Make you statement known and be happy with it but stop throwing you're knowledge at people and let them do what they want.

Inform=Good, Preaching=Bad

and the comment about being influential because you're a forum mod? come on man, i guess i'm influential because i was on honor role in high school.

[sirheck]

It's not about mixing aluminum in a copper line or reducing performance. And you guys are no longer just informing people: you're preaching, and in a way that says only you are right. So here's the point: Make you statement known and be happy with it but stop throwing you're knowledge at people and let them do what they want.

Inform=Good, Preaching=Bad

and the comment about being influential because you're a forum mod? come on man, i guess i'm influential because i was on honor role in high school.


Good post.
Some of these guys Exaggerate the whole aluminium thing.

Yes it can cause problems, but not like some say it can.
How long have the auto makers been putting steel threaded spark plugs
in alu heads? A loonngg time.
Can and will ferrous and non-ferrous metals bond, yes.
But not like some make it out to be.

I very rarely see it in automobiles (i have been working on them since the mid 80,s) this includes copper heater cores,alu radiators,alu cyl heads and cast iron engine blocks. And moutain bikes with titanium frames and steel bolts
or reynolds 853 steel frames and titanium bolts or 6k and 7k series alu frames
with steel or titanium bolts(yes i have one of each type of mtb bike.
And yes i have and not have used anti-seize on all the above listed.

And (from what i have gathered) from some post.
Telling someone not to post pics of a nice looking rig
which has a mixture of metals is rediculous:down:

[GrimReaperGuy]

and the comment about being influential because you're a forum mod? come on man, i guess i'm influential because i was on honor role in high school.
Honor roll. Sorry, I just couldn't resist. :p:

[Clue69Less]

Good post.
Some of these guys Exaggerate the whole aluminium thing.

Yes it can cause problems, but not like some say it can.
How long have the auto makers been putting steel threaded spark plugs
in alu heads? A loonngg time.
Can and will ferrous and non-ferrous metals bond, yes.
But not like some make it out to be.

I very rarely see it in automobiles (i have been working on them since the mid 80,s) this includes copper heater cores,alu radiators,alu cyl heads and cast iron engine blocks. And moutain bikes with titanium frames and steel bolts
or reynolds 853 steel frames and titanium bolts or 6k and 7k series alu frames
with steel or titanium bolts(yes i have one of each type of mtb bike.
And yes i have and not have used anti-seize on all the above listed.

And (from what i have gathered) from some post.
Telling someone not to post pics of a nice looking rig
which has a mixture of metals is rediculous:down:

Well said. I also have done water cooling for many years, some of it in instrument development research. In reading this and other threads, what pops into my head is that there must be some additional variables at work here. It may be easy to conclude that aluminum in a mixed metal system = bad, but if it's known to not always be true (and it IS known to not always be true) then perhaps those claiming that is is always bad need to rethink their hypothesis.

[sirheck]

I have a Ti seat post in my cannondale, its been there since 1998 when i
built the bike.
Also have a carbon fiber seatpost in my 853 jamis dragon.

They (when i release the quick release) slide up and down just fine.

[sirheck]

Who can post a "Link" that says they dont?

[mike8913]

Honor roll. Sorry, I just couldn't resist. :p:

haha....i can't even be angry, just call me quick with my fingers and not with my brain. (thats why the ladies love me)

[speedfreak86]

Good looking project.

[Clue69Less]

Don't think you can stop our preaching. We will preach from the sunrise to the sunset, till your ears bleed. Don't count on us stopping!!

And Naekuh is correct because he knows water cooling well and is a veteran expert. And your high school honor roll doesn't qualify, because I'm sure he was a honors graduate in college and graduate school as well.

High school honor roll? Dude, my resume is a bit more complete than that. I have a PhD and have been doing research in chemistry and materials science for over 30 years. I have extensive experience in corrosion science and have worked with systems considerably more challenging than PC water cooling rigs. I have also developed temperature control systems for chemical reactors and ion beam applications far beyond where your imagination has taken you as of yet.

Your preaching will not make my ears ache, let alone bleed. After your insults above, I no longer need to give your shrill bleatings any credit at all. You seriously need to investigate the meaning and proper application of the scientific method.

[sirheck]

I wasn't talking about/responding to you and I wasn't talking about my resume either. Your credentials bore me, and so does those of others.

None of this is germane to the conversation here. Chemical reactors, nuclear reactors, toilet reactors... so what? This conversation is about aluminum fittings in the same loop as copper blocks. Chemical engineering, material science... whatever you say... none of that impresses me in the least bit or matters here. I could careless if invented temperature control equipment for the space shuttle.

You are certainly not swaying my opinion here. 30 years of experience. 50 years. 100 years. Makes zero impact on me.

Scientific method = gathering of experts to discuss that the Earth is flat. Especially when countless individuals have been down the path of practical application. In this case, Naekuh and Waterlogged haved sailed the path of Magellan, and yet we have people insisting that scientific theory says that the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it.

You no makey sense.:rofl:


Seriously the alu thing isnt as bad as some of you make it out to be.

[Clue69Less]

None of this is germane to the conversation here. Chemical reactors, nuclear reactors, toilet reactors... so what?

Scientific method = gathering of experts to discuss that the Earth is flat. Especially when countless individuals have been down the path of practical application.

You are so wrong, it's no wonder you've convinced yourself that you are right. But you are still wrong. Scientific method TOTALLY applies here. Why? Because clearly, aluminum and copper can be used in aqueous systems without corrosion problems. I have worked with Al/Cu systems extensively and have done so without a hint of corrosion. With relatively minor changes to the aqueous system, the corrosion can be fast and catastrophic. Therefore, your hypothesis is flawed, period. If you truly desire knowledge, you could use the scientific method to extricate yourself from your dilemma. Your rant only prooves that your goal is not to learn.

So what, you say? This and your other comments only enhances your proof of your own ignorance. That in itself does not imply that you are stupid, only that you are not displaying knowledge relevant to the discussion. That in itself is fine and dandy as you are not obligated to search for wisdom just because you continue to spout forth random BS about these topics. It is entirely possible that you are stupid because you spray about technical subjects without any indication that you wish to search for the truth. As of yet you have not displayed conclusive evidence of your own stupidity although you are getting closer with every rant.

Off to pop some corn in anticipation of your next excuse to get a good laugh. Please, do detail your experiences with research in aluminum corrosion. Rattle off a quick tutorial on redox chemistry and postulate as to why Al/Cu systems corrode under some circumstances and not under others.

[mike8913]

I wasn't talking about/responding to you and I wasn't talking about my resume either. Your credentials bore me, and so does those of others.

None of this is germane to the conversation here. Chemical reactors, nuclear reactors, toilet reactors... so what? This conversation is about aluminum fittings in the same loop as copper blocks.

Scientific method = gathering of experts to discuss that the Earth is flat. Especially when countless individuals have been down the path of practical application. In this case, Naekuh and Waterlogged haved sailed the path of Magellan, and yet we have people insisting that scientific theory says that the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it.


talk about relevance to the topic.

no matter what you're cooling, if you're using water (with or without additives) in addition to copper and aluminum: it is relevant to the topic. Figurative "people" gathering to dismiss scientific theory and uphold heliocentric beliefs is far from part of this conversation.

[sirheck]

Hey Ian. where did your post telling me to run a Ti seat post in my mtb frame
for a year and see if it sticks go?

[sirheck]

Oh wait nevermind, i found it in my email.
Dear sirheck,

IanY has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Project "Fuel Injected" Stacker - 100% braided stainless aircraft hose - in the Liquid Cooling forum of XtremeSystems Forums.

This thread is located at:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185881&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

---Quote (Originally by sirheck)---
And moutain bikes with titanium frames and steel bolts or reynolds 853 steel frames and titanium bolts or 6k and 7k series alu frames with steel or titanium bolts(yes i have one of each type of mtb bike.
And yes i have and not have used anti-seize on all the above listed.
---End Quote---
Why don't you insert a Ti seatpost into a steel frame and let it sit there for a year without anti-seize. A road bike, where the seatpost doesn't get removed. Then try to change seatposts in one year. Bicycles, I know that well. Very well.
***************


There may be other replies also, but you will not receive any more notifications until you visit the forum again.

All the best,
XtremeSystems Forums

[Clue69Less]

Hey Ian. where did your post telling me to run a Ti seat post in my mtb frame
for a year and see if it sticks go?

Maybe he finally bought some lube for the post?

[GrimReaperGuy]

haha....i can't even be angry, just call me quick with my fingers and not with my brain. (thats why the ladies love me)
Good to see some humor in a thread otherwise bereft of civility and common sense. Kudos to you, mike8913. :up:

[STEvil]

:rolleyes: :shakes: :shrug:

[sirheck]

:rolleyes: :shakes: :shrug:

Me too im confused now:eek:

WTH were we bablin about anyway.:shrug:

[LogAn'sRun]

somehow I think this thread descended from admiring/not admiring OP's system to showing how extensive our use of the english language is. Very nice vocabulary XS! Impressive if I say the least. . . .

BTW - this thread now reminds me of all the alu wars that went on here a year ago when Marci and Cathar used to post here. Don't they like us anymore??? :(

[Clue69Less]

I admire your innate ability to see past the degenerate smack talking and capture the postive elements of this thread. lol


That's pretty hilarious since I think you were one of the people he was talking about.

[Clue69Less]

That's the intent, is it not? :p:

Where did your humor supposedly begin? When you first criticized the OP's rig? After the fact, it's difficult to take anything you say seriously. And that's OK - every court needs a few jesters.

[mike8913]

This sounds like a call out, Do you really want to try? And yes im very proud about the fact im a MOD at another forum. I think Mods deserve a lot of respect in the work they do for the forum. Are you a Mod at a respected forum?

I dont think a MOD would recomend something stupid like this tho. You dont see Movieman, Fugger, or Vapor recomending stuff like this. Stevil stays away from the whole mixing metal disccusion.

So i guess not. Mike dont try. Seriously, i have no hate on you.
I and Iany probably own 5x the h2o gear you do, so i dont think its your spot to try to tell me what to say and what not to say about h2o gear.


It's not really a call out as much as it sounds like you're 12 years old.:down:

Seriously, forums are awesome and the people that run them do deserve a lot of respect just for the time they put into them. But to imply that they are some how more intelligent than the other users is just ignorant and rude. Yes there are idiots, but there are also very smart people. I don't think anyone with half a brain really caress if you're a forum mod. I mean, congrats I know not everyone gets to have those responsibilities, but be a little modest would you. It's not that big of a deal.

Secondly, this "i own 5x the crap you own" thing, whats the matter with you. One, I'm a college student with no money, and two I don't want to spend a lot of money on removing heat because I feel like if I look back at my records at the end of the year and see thousands spent on removing heat that I'm going t be really peeved at myself. I'm willing to bet you're older than me, so grow up why don't you?

I'm going to try and make this really clear for you too. No one is saying you're wrong. Again, NO ONE is saying you're wrong. We're only saying that you're going overboard with the preaching in a way that no longer informs them, but scares them. While mixing aluminum with copper in the line may not be advisable, it is certainly not a mixture for catastrophe.

[Clue69Less]

basically cliff notes for everyone:

1. Op has a nice setup <--- let me get it out of the way, this isnt what were argueing about.
2. Iany showed op he was mixing metals by using alu.
3. Iany warned op about mixing metals as well as other vets.
4. People come in saying mixing metals is safe and okey.
5. I come in and give everyone a stern discussion about mixing metals
6. Everyone is trying to make me look like a noob. :rofl:

Sorry, i dont like bragging but you passing all the wrong info, no your absolutely wrong, mixing metals is bull:banana::banana::banana::banana: stupid and the dumbest crap you can do. By you and anyone else saying its okey, you just showed us how stupid and dumb you are in h2o cooling and should really stick to this section:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=69

Here lemme contrast how stupid it is. You guys are saying its safe to put desiel gas in a unleaded porshe. Lets see how long your engine lasts.

This sounds like a call out, Do you really want to try? And yes im very proud about the fact im a MOD at another forum. I think Mods deserve a lot of respect in the work they do for the forum. Are you a Mod at a respected forum?

I dont think a MOD would recomend something stupid like this tho. You dont see Movieman, Fugger, or Vapor recomending stuff like this. Stevil stays away from the whole mixing metal disccusion.

So i guess not. Mike dont try. Seriously, i have no hate on you.
I and Iany probably own 5x the h2o gear you do, so i dont think its your spot to try to tell me what to say and what not to say about h2o gear.

Oh and this is XS so i can be as rude obnoxious and sarcastic as i feel until a mod tells me to tone down.

You've grossly misinterpreted this thread to your own advantage. The OP built the system with a sacrificial anode and has sucessfully mixed Cu and Al while avoiding corrosion, so Ian didn't show him anything except arrogance.

I don't believe that anyone is trying to make you look like a noob here. If you were to say that in the post rad chiller thread, I'd be more accepting.

Don't try to misinterpret what I posted. I'm not advocating for Cu/Al mixed systems, I'm saying that many exist without corrosion problems and this fact points out that other factors are involved. And don't try to draw a corrolary between WC PCs and pumping diesel into a gas Porche, it just illuminates how few straws you have left to grasp.

Another misconception: Mod's don't deserve respect - like everyone else, they have to EARN it, day in and day out. It's not a free pass to be rude. Your comment:

"Oh and this is XS so i can be as rude obnoxious and sarcastic as i feel until a mod tells me to tone down."

This just shows how much ego can blind the owner. Why would you want to push the limits of acceptable behavior and force a mod to moderate? Do you consider being modded to be proof of your l337ness? Your partner in this thread discounts my expertise as a professional corrosion expert, yet you try to act as if your claim that you and Ian own 5x the WC gear that Mike owns as some sort of validation of your beliefs. You really should choose to work the logical angle (good luck, you'll need it) or stick with the touchy-feely, aluminum is always bad point of view. I happen to trust the OP's observations as well as those of Heck and anyone else that's seen Al and Cu coexist. This ain't rocket science and anyone that has practiced in the field knows that there are far more challenging systems that have been dealt with successfully.

[Clue69Less]

That's because you don't know me. Stick around here, Mister Doctor, and you'll figure out the characters of this forum. For example, Naekuh would know when my humor kicks in and when I am flat out serious. I see that Waterlogged and Xilikon have given up on this thread.

Go back two pages. You'll find the only people who take offense are those who are new to this forum. Some people love it, some people hate it. It is what it is.

And Stevil above has been around for a long long time, knows the forum creed, and knows exactly what Naekuh is talking about....

Actually, I'm not at all new to this forum. You just haven't figured out what my previous handle was... I know you plenty well and usually avoid reading your same old crap but in this thread, I was just in the mood to speak up. I am not responsible for determining if you are serious or not. When you try to educate an OP that has a far better grasp of reality than you do, it's just another proof of your delusional behaviors.

In case you haven't figured out where I stand with respect to the issue of corrosion in Cu/Al aqueous systems, I'll spell it out for you:

1) Can there be corrosion problems in liquid delivery systems that have exposed Al and Cu surfaces? Answer: absolutely. Corrosion in these systems is thermodynamically favored and the kinetics are fast enough to lead to catastrophic failure.

2) Can corrosion in liquid delivery systems that have exposed Al and Cu surfaces be made insignificant? Answer: absolutely. I don't think you want me posting up the related literature since you don't believe in the scientific method, but commercial products exist and are effective... Well, how about one reference?

http://www.rtvanderbilt.com/spec_hi_3.htm

Quote:

"NACAP® - 50% aqueous sodium 2-mercaptobenzothiazole, is a corrosion inhibitor for water, alcohol and glycol systems. Particularly effective in preventing corrosion of copper and brass. It is an excellent corrosion inhibitor for aluminum in systems where aluminum is used in the presence of copper and copper alloys. NACAP is one of the standard copper corrosion inhibitors for the anti-freeze industry."

Wow, look at how relevant that is... Al in the presence of Cu for water, alcohol and glycol systems... The truth is that this product is just one of many that are in use today all around the world. Sometimes people in a forum tend to live in a vacuum and do not realize that it's a huge world out there. I used to work for one of the leading heat transfer fluid manufacturers on a global scale so we got to see a wide range of corrosion issues, including Al/Cu in water. Dude, this Al/Cu thing is minor league or less in the field of corrosion science. Why not offer up something more difficult to solve?

[Waterlogged]

basically cliff notes for everyone:

1. Op has a nice setup <--- let me get it out of the way, this isnt what were argueing about.
2. Iany showed op he was mixing metals by using alu.
3. Iany warned op about mixing metals as well as other vets.
4. People come in saying mixing metals is safe and okey.
5. I come in and give everyone a stern discussion about mixing metals
6. Everyone is trying to make me look like a noob. :rofl:

Sorry, i usually post anymore unless all the wrong posted info is wrong, no your absolutely wrong, mixing metals is bull:banana::banana::banana::banana: stupid and the dumbest crap you can do. By you and anyone else saying its okey, you just showed us how stupid and dumb you are in h2o cooling and should really stick to this section:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=69

Here lemme contrast how stupid it is. You guys are saying its safe to put desiel gas in a unleaded porshe. Lets see how long your engine lasts.



This sounds like a call out, Do you really want to try? And yes im very proud about the fact im a MOD at another forum. I think Mods deserve a lot of respect in the work they do for the forum. Are you a Mod at a respected forum?

And yes Mods are influential, so are XIPs on this forum. When you see Vapor recomend a FAN, how many memebers go out hunting for it? IE SanACE? OR ZalmanF3's? When i posted the koolance compression fittings, how many people you think bought them? Oh what about Cathar and the RD-30?

Were not influential? okey... Also do you see Martin recomending mixing metals? I think id drive down to oregan and give him a good smackdown if he did.

So i guess not. Mike dont try. Seriously, i have no hate on you.
I and Iany probably own 5x the h2o gear you do, so i dont think its your spot to try to tell me what to say and what not to say about h2o gear.

Oh and this is XS so i can be as rude obnoxious and sarcastic as i feel until a mod tells me to tone down. [meaning i dont wear a mod hat in this forum, also maybe why i love it here more then my other forums] :T


*end of Rant Mode*
If you want i'll post up TONS of builds of i did. Trust me, i know h2o cooling, and mixing metals as waterlogg and everyone else say is seriously TABOO.

You keep buying alu parts, companies think its okey because of sales, they keep using alu parts. Look at koolance. They got there butt whipped and changed to brass/copper, same as xspc.

HEY! I think you forgot to give someone credit in your cliff notes for trying to spread the anti-mix gospel (pg1- posts 4, 12, 14, 18, 20). ;) I too said it was nice....just a wrong choice of materials.

Honestly though, anyone that thinks that mixing metals (especially when the weaker material is anodized) is a good idea should go play in the k[H]iddie pool. This is XS and there is a certain standard of Xcellence that we must hold ourselves to in regards to info contained within these pages.

Now, having said that, the OP posted a pic w/a link to start this topic. I'll have to admit that I did not click on the link until well after the debate had gone out of control an d must apologize for that. He does state in the link that he used a sacrificial anode BUT, he never stated what material it was made from. NOTE FOR THE FUTURE. If you mix metals and use a sacrificial anode, please make sure, if you post in the Liquid Cooling section, that you make sure this point is know and what material it's made of in the first sentence of your post before any pictures.

It's amazing how ppl that are saying mixing is no big deal haven't said squat about the pics I post on page 1. I would really like to hear how they dismiss them. :yepp: BTW, those are not my blocks, just pics I dug up from days long ago when we were just figuring this WC thing out.

Now, about what IanY said about the SS braided covering on the hose. He's 100&#37; correct. The only way I would work on the OP's rig (if it were my own) is with the power off and unplugged. All it would take is moving the SS a little too close to a card with power for that power to jump through a trace or solder joint and BAM, something just died. Don't believe me?.....I have first hand experience in the way of a dead 7600 GT that was brand new that accidentally touched the top of the desktop case it was in. Soon as I fire it up for the first time with the top on, it went POOF. I'd be happy to post a pic or two if you'd like the proof.

[Clue69Less]

It's amazing how ppl that are saying mixing is no big deal haven't said squat about the pics I post on page 1. I would really like to hear how they dismiss them. :yepp: BTW, those are not my blocks, just pics I dug up from days long ago when we were just figuring this WC thing out.

Sorry to give the wake up call, but corrosion inhibitors for Al/Cu aqueous systems significantly predate water cooling of PCs. All you had to do was just go search the literature and you'd have seen that it had been figured out long ago. The moral of the story is:

1) Avoid redox pairs

and/or...

2) Use a sacrificial anode (this fix is as old as dirt)

and/or...

3) Use a corrosion inhibitor.

I don't have Al in my PC water loops but I do in my car's cooling system (which also has Cu and has run year after year with no problems). If I felt the need to mix Al and Cu in my PC, it would not be difficult to deal with. Then again, Ian has christened me Doctor Science or something like that so maybe I'll just convert the Al to Au, buy XS and ban all of the nonbelievers.

[NaeKuh]

Clueless are you TOP NURSE?

*trying to dangle a AC Product to see if it bites*

[sirheck]

Sir Heck:

I can talk about bicycles all you want, but not in a computer forum. These discussions are not appropriate, and I deleted my comments after the fact due to a change in heart. Having said that, I hope you at least have grease around your seatpost and re-insert it every year. I use nothing on my carbon posts, but use sandpaper to roughen up the surface. In my early days, I had my saddle go into the tube and I learned my way around carbon.

Then quit talking about it then.
Even though its the samre principle=mixing metals.

[Clue69Less]

LMAO,

Okey, so then Mr. KnowitAll, who are you?

Maybe you should reveal yourself, if your obviously a regular here, then you should know i am type that will admit im wrong when i am wrong.

So far you havent said anything which isnt refutable, yeah he has a sacraficial node in there, well, the whole point is not to have one in the first place. And a sacraficial node does help, but its not perfect. Its mostly used on boats to prevent corrosion, i know what that is.

And yes i am a bit ignorant, well i have my place, and my partner, oh boy, you have so little knowledge of him, it cracks me up. But anyhow, whatever, you do not play an important role in my life, so i can care less about you to be honest.

Also if im not scared to go head to head with vendors what makes you think im scared to go head to head against you?

If you are someone in this industry dont hide behind a screen name and show yourself. If you cant think of a handle, a name would be suffice. If i know your a legend, then yeah, i'll admit im wrong and shut up.

But there are a very few amount of people who can tell me to shut up about h2o cooling, so far you dont sound like one of them. Also a XIP wouldnt be protecting something like this. Which is where im getting at. Which again translates to you are nothing.

I'm no longer in the corrosion business and have never profited from selling corrosion inhibitors. My current employment involves method development for water quality analysis and is totally unrelated to cooling PCs or corrosion. Who I am is not an issue because it's NYFB. I am not required to disclose my identity in this forum so don't act as if you can force me to.

Feel free to continue to strut and posture while acting as if your priorities are universal. The truth has been brought forth and has slapped your face like a thousand talapias full of rot and stench such that your opinions smell of dead fish. I never claimed that systems should be designed by default to require sacrificial anodes and/or corrosion inhibitors. HOWEVER, if there is a design component that involves compromises such as an aesthetic aspect that could lead to Al/Cu corrosion, then it gets down to weighing the remedies and what compromises they may bring. Whether or not I'm a legend is so meaningless as to be laughable. I'm not claiming to own all of the research and you need to realize that the history in this arena is old and fairly well-developed. The fact that you're not plugged into that history does not qualify you as discoverer, it means that you're trying to reinvent the wheel. And in this thread, you've shown that you don't know how to make a round one.

[sirheck]

Now, having said that, the OP posted a pic w/a link to start this topic. I'll have to admit that I did not click on the link until well after the debate had gone out of control an d must apologize for that. He does state in the link that he used a sacrificial anode BUT, he never stated what material it was made from. NOTE FOR THE FUTURE. If you mix metals and use a sacrificial anode, please make sure, if you post in the Liquid Cooling section, that you make sure this point is know and what material it's made of in the first sentence of your post before any pictures.

It's amazing how ppl that are saying mixing is no big deal haven't said squat about the pics I post on page 1. I would really like to hear how they dismiss them. :yepp: BTW, those are not my blocks, just pics I dug up from days long ago when we were just figuring this WC thing out.


You now trying to tell some one what they can and cant post?:shakes:

Who cares about the picture you posted earlier.
I bet it didnt happen over night.
It means nothing with out a story behind it.

[sirheck]

Hey.. I deleted my posts. Do I need to go back and show you how many posts you have made to revive the bicycle nonsense? You obviously haven't had a corroded aluminum seatpost before.


Sorry for making you retract your statments:ROTF:

[NaeKuh]

OK. I'm PMing Movieman to shut down this thread. It has gone far enough.

no its not fair to the OP, i will just delete all my posts, and leave.

OP, on a last note, you got a great rig, however the tubing and alu scares me.

[Clue69Less]

Clue69Less,

You sure are pious, aren't you? Do you really want to go down this road? What exactly do you think will be the result of your rants?

Poor excuse for a sidestep there IanY. Can't handle the actual technical issue so you get all introspective and toss out a veiled warning? How Xtreme is that kind of :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:footing? New forum folks, brought to you by IanY:

Xtreme :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:footing

Look, either attack my technical foundation with valid science or quit trolling. You're boring me so bad I'm going to have to go free solo a big wall to get my pulse to register again.

[[XC] riptide]

Actually, I'm not at all new to this forum. You just haven't figured out what my previous handle was... I know you plenty well and usually avoid reading your same old crap but in this thread, I was just in the mood to speak up. I am not responsible for determining if you are serious or not. When you try to educate an OP that has a far better grasp of reality than you do, it's just another proof of your delusional behaviors.

In case you haven't figured out where I stand with respect to the issue of corrosion in Cu/Al aqueous systems, I'll spell it out for you:

1) Can there be corrosion problems in liquid delivery systems that have exposed Al and Cu surfaces? Answer: absolutely. Corrosion in these systems is thermodynamically favored and the kinetics are fast enough to lead to catastrophic failure.

2) Can corrosion in liquid delivery systems that have exposed Al and Cu surfaces be made insignificant? Answer: absolutely. I don't think you want me posting up the related literature since you don't believe in the scientific method, but commercial products exist and are effective... Well, how about one reference?

http://www.rtvanderbilt.com/spec_hi_3.htm

Quote:

"NACAP® - 50% aqueous sodium 2-mercaptobenzothiazole, is a corrosion inhibitor for water, alcohol and glycol systems. Particularly effective in preventing corrosion of copper and brass. It is an excellent corrosion inhibitor for aluminum in systems where aluminum is used in the presence of copper and copper alloys. NACAP is one of the standard copper corrosion inhibitors for the anti-freeze industry."

Wow, look at how relevant that is... Al in the presence of Cu for water, alcohol and glycol systems... The truth is that this product is just one of many that are in use today all around the world. Sometimes people in a forum tend to live in a vacuum and do not realize that it's a huge world out there. I used to work for one of the leading heat transfer fluid manufacturers on a global scale so we got to see a wide range of corrosion issues, including Al/Cu in water. Dude, this Al/Cu thing is minor league or less in the field of corrosion science. Why not offer up something more difficult to solve?


Clueless, while i agree in your ideas of corrosion inhibitors etc, and also the idea that some people here talk a lot of BS, I might also add that I beleive using more than one account on XS is breaking the rules? Have you been banned before?

[Clue69Less]

OK. I'm PMing Movieman to shut down this thread. It has gone far enough.

That's sad, dude. Don't like my corrosion inhibitor linkage, eh?

[NaeKuh]

okey i deleted all my comments.

I ask the other members who quoted me to also remove the comments.

Its not fair for the original poster, he does have great skills in moding. And its not fair for us to jack his thread.

Anyhow i wont be posting here anymore, its turning his project post into a pissing contest.

[Clue69Less]

riptide;2953622']Clueless, while i agree in your ideas of corrosion inhibitors etc, and also the idea that some people here talk a lot of BS, I might also add that I beleive using more than one account on XS is breaking the rules? Have you been banned before?


I've never even been threatened with bannage here. I moved a while back and when I tried to post to my old XS handle, I got errors. Since it linked to my old email, I had no way to repair it so I registered again. Nothing underhanded here. I've never had simultaneous accounts and tried to deal with it correctly but got zero help from the admins. But please, feel free to ban me now if I've done something so horrible. IanY will surely rejoice.

[Clue69Less]

Clueless are you TOP NURSE?

*trying to dangle a AC Product to see if it bites*

No but if she's available tonight and deserving of her handle, I do need some physical therapy.

[[XC] riptide]

What was your old Handle? Maybe the admins can sort you out with the continuation of that handle. As your current handle does not endow your posts very well. A poor choice in my opinion :)

[Clue69Less]

riptide;2953656']What was your old Handle? Maybe the admins can sort you out with the continuation of that handle. As your current handle does not endow your posts very well. A poor choice in my opinion :)

I've moved on and will not ask for any more help.

Clue69Less is a great handle if you understand it. Sorry you don't appreciate its symmetry and truth.

[Everett]

Great Build WS :yepp:

[mike8913]

I've moved on and will not ask for any more help.

Clue69Less is a great handle if you understand it. Sorry you don't appreciate its symmetry and truth.

No NO, wonder sausage is a GREAT handle, yours is just clever:up:

[Movieman]

Ahh, The water cooling section..
One of the few places where people don't argue but get together as friends..
Ok, now to read up on this thread and learn from all you wonderfull people.:D

[Brave758]

Nice system

[initialised]

cardinal sin #1....aluminum.Al->rubber/PVC/Tygon/Silicone->Cu + corrosion inhibitor is fine.

The risk here is that somewhere in the system (probably on the GPU block) there is Al in (electrical) contact with Cu which will accelerate corrosion especially if they are in physical contact with oneanother and the fluid, the joint will rot. I recomend checking for a voltage between Al and Cu components. If there is voltage then all is good and the sacrificial annode will do it's job. If not then the circuit is closed and corrosion will be increased.

But it looks amazing and I'm guessing you've done your research on corrosion, shame the rest of the anti-Al lobby haven't caught up yet.

One slight niggle, the resevoir looks a little like a gangster's hamster's water bottle.

[cegras]

For fun today, studying electrochem, I believe the overall reaction works out to be ;

3Cu (2+) + 2Al -> 3Cu + 2Al(3+)

When this reaction is spontaneous (Ecell > 0) the copper undergoes reduction and the Al undergoes oxidation, and dissolves!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's two things missing for a galvanic reaction to occur here (spontaneous);

a) A conductive path

b) Cu2+ to use up the current produced and keep the current flowing, hence, keep the Al oxidizing

[Clue69Less]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's two things missing for a galvanic reaction to occur here (spontaneous);

a) A conductive path

b) Cu2+ to use up the current produced and keep the current flowing, hence, keep the Al oxidizing

It's virtually impossible to get the conductivity of water to zero. If you deionize it as much as possible, the conductivity will initially be low but then will begin to rise over time because protons from the water's auto-dissociation will ion exchange with cations on any surface. Even theoretically pure water would be expected to have finite conductivity due to auto-dissociation.

Al/Cu is discussed here:

http://www.lytron.com/tools_technical/notes/galvanic_corrosion.aspx

[disruptfam]

nice sausage

[[XC] riptide]

Guys! We need a new thread to argue/debate over Metal Mixing in the PC cooling setting.. Someone start it and leave this one alone.

[IanY]

Riptide, buddy, I think we already have a whole stable of dead horses. Its starting to stink in here.

[Xilikon]

Riptide, buddy, I think we already have a whole stable of dead horses. Its starting to stink in here.

And a lot of broken sticks. Anytime someone make a thread, it's a great idea to bring marshmallows to cook on the flamefest ;) IanY is right, I learned to stop bothering with stubborn AL lovers :shakes:

Corrosion inhibitors might be the key to reduce corrosion a lot but the thermal transfer properties is greatly reduced as well compared to pure distilled water. That's where it become much more complicated.

[Clue69Less]

Corrosion inhibitors might be the key to reduce corrosion a lot but the thermal transfer properties is greatly reduced as well compared to pure distilled water. That's where it become much more complicated.

Please give references that will quantitate what you mean by "greatly reduced". I've seen losses on the order of 2 to 3&#37; and that doesn't qualify as "greatly reduced" in my book. I've got no Al in my loops and I still use an inhibitor because they extend pump life.

[kinghong1970]

+ Jerry Springer
+ Popcorn
+ Pepsi Blue... (yea, i still love em...)

i'm good for some entertainment...

but seriously OP, nice rig.... very nice...