Stacked Radiators Idea?

[arnemetis]

Been fiddling around with this idea for a few months now, and originally made a thread over at hardocp's forums but my idea was shot down, and I've now decided I'd like a second opinion :) I'm looking to finally build a new computer, and I want to go with some nice components and good watercooling. I'd like to run two loops, in one case, and the idea of stacking the radiators between layers of fans struck me. So let's see if I can explain this right the first time.

I'm starting with a large case, namely the older stacker stc-t01. This case has power supply bays up top as well as down below, which will allow a great deal of space for modding I hope. I would like to remove the power supply bay up top, and hang the radiators and fans from the top. There would first be 3 120mm fans attached (blowing up), then a swiftech mcr320 with the barbs facing into the case and up against the back of the case, then 3 more 120mm fans (blowing up), then another mcr320 with the barbs towards the case with them towards the front of the case. I'll try some ascii art to try and explain this a bit more visually:

____________________
|....[fan][fan][fan]..........|
|..8[====rad====].........| <- front of case
|....[fan][fan][fan]..........|
|....[====rad====]8.......| (periods are just spacers for ascii, forum doesn't like spaces)
|..................................|

There, clear as mud. Now I'm going to try and answer some questions before they get asked:

Q. What exactly is going in this pc that makes you think you need two loops, much less two triple rads?
A. I'm going to be cooling a nicely overclocked q6600, a couple 8800gt cards (possibly 8800gts), and the chipset of the motherboard which will most likely be the evga 780i ftw (I'm a fan of an integrated water block that also cools the southbridge and mosfets). I'll put the cpu and chipset on the bottom radiator (gets freshest air), and put the two gpu's on the upper radiator. I will have a 5 disk raid5 array in a supermicro 5 in 3 hot swap enslosure, a main boot drive, and a dvdrw (so that right there is 5 of the 11 front case bays, eliminating the possibility of a triple up front).

Q. So what watercooling gear you figure on running?
A. 2x mcr320 radiators, 2x ddc02 pumps w/ petra's tops, 2x swiftech micro resevoirs, 2x ek g92 full cover blocks, the onboard 780i block, a dtek fusion w/ quad nozzle, all run with 7/16 masterkleer tubing. The fans will be medium speed yates from petra's (I read the fan review here and found out about only petra having superior yates! :eek: )

Q. Why stack them rather than have one up top and one up front, or any other kind of configuration?
A. Well It comes down to space. This would allow me a great deal of additional space up front with the drive bays, as well as case floor space. I'm going to have a lot of stuff in this pc, so I'd like to not waste space if possible. Another thing is I think it will be fun and more interesting to get a double triple rad hanging from the top of my case. Finally, in my mind I can't believe that the air that has passed over the first radiator has taken on so much heat that it won't be able to do its job over the second, but that's why I'm here now isn't it.

So now, I'm seeking questions, comments, suggestions, and insults.

P.S. The result of the other thread was that I would be better off running a pa120.3 up topside for the gpu's and chipset, and run a mcr220 up front of the case for the cpu. I'm not a fan of this outcome, as it severaly eats into my case space, and even ends up being more expensive in the end.

[Pedalmonkey]

im just throwing an idea out there because i have no idea of the space of the case. but maybe try to mount the 2 rads turned 90degrees so they push up against the sides of the case. then cut some holes for some mesh and have the rad fans push out either side. the only 2 things would be space side to side seeing as youd want enough space to have a couple CM between the 2 rad/fan assemblies. the other would be enough air to the fans to blow across the rads. this would eliminate the hot air flowing over 1 rad and it would hopefully keep all your space you "need."

[arnemetis]

90 degrees not gonna work with this case, perhaps something a tad bigger. I've had someone measure the inside clearance for me, from the top of the case to the start of the installed motherboard is about dead on 5". A sideways mcr220 (I currently have one externally) is 5 1/8". it would also be difficult sideways, as tube routing and clearance for the side panel would be difficult.

Also, I have no desire to do any of this externally. I currently have a 2x120 hanging off my pc, and I hate it. I want this new build to be 100&#37; internal. Let's get some discussion going about the real pros/cons of this idea as I've proposed it! Thanks again to any and all replies :)

*edit* I'll add that my current rad&fan is 2 3/8" thick, so double that is 4 3/4". Would leave me about 1/4" between the radiator and the motherboard.

[Pedalmonkey]

you'd be better off running a PA120.3 up there with push pull fans than have the heat from one rad heat the other. or even just run the GPU's on standard cooling solution. id toy with the idea of maybe putting a dual 120 rad of some sort up front and getting a tad bit creative with the HDD mounting. easier than the extensive modding mounting the 2 rads internally and you will get better cooling than your stacked rad mounts.

[Farrow099]

The heat of the first radiator is passed into the air to cool it... Then that hot air is passed into the second rad. Far from ideal.

[Meatpuppet]

If you are sold on the idea then it will probably work, just make sure your more temperature sensitive components are in a loop with the lower radiator. That being said, IMHO dual loops are mainly for looks as a dual pump single loop will preform better. If you are looking for performance I would say that a PA120.3 (they are fat and overpriced but they perform like no other) with some healty CFM fans won't be any louder than what you are contemplating and will likely work better and be a much cleaner install. If you are looking for style points and willing to sacrifice some performance then go through with the stacked rads thing. It won't be the optimal solution, but at the same time nothing is going to explode.

[earthwormjim]

How significant is the temperature increase of air passing through a radiator? I don't have any probes to test on my radiator.

[Meatpuppet]

How significant is the temperature increase of air passing through a radiator? I don't have any probes to test on my radiator.

It really depends on a lot of factors, chief among them are how much heat you are trying to dissipate and how large the radiator is. Basically watercooling does not reduce the heat of a system in any way, it is just quite effective at moving it. In my non OCed system with a triple fan radiator, the temperature differential was noticable compared to the ambient air (think warm summer breeze... not HOT but warm). My newest build is in a cosmos, which features a vent in the back that ducts the exhaust from the top radiator. When everything is at full bore the air coming out the back is pretty damn warm (again, we aren't talking about warping metal here but your ice cream wouldn't be too happy).

[sickboy8820]

Currently I run that setup in my old gaming rig and recently switched to my media center rig... Anyway it's based on a TJ07 case with Swiffy 320 + 220 rads coolin my cpu, NB, SB and SLI GPU... Not going into detail with how it's being routed and such but at the bottom I have 5 golf ball fan, then rad, then 3XY Loons highs... Then within 2 inches of those fans I have 2 more high loons, swiffy 220 rad and medium loons kicking the air out back... With a digital "hand gun' style temp gauge it reads 8 degrees hotter then above and really boils down to nothing in regards to over clockin... Yeah could I get 3.8 ghz on my quad versus my stable 3.60 with a different setup = YES! But it's easier for me versus switching cases OR moving the rad above...

Currently building a brand new TJ07 with a 220 on top and 320 on the bottom with dual pumps and such as my gaming/ clockin rig...

So if you don't have any other options, or set on "X" case, or you're not lookin for hardcore clocks then it will be okay but remember you need higher CFM fans to push the warmer air through versus it stayin stagnant and warming the air quicker if it's not a well ventilated area...

PM if you wanna ask any other questions since my setup has been like this for at least 6 months now...
SickBoy

[arnemetis]

Performance should come first...when the difference isn't 1 degree. I'm not sold on the idea, thats why I brought it up. If a single pa120.3 up top in a single loop that has 2 pumps along the way will perform equally/better, then I'm all for it. Just thought having dual gpu and chipset and cpu all together would make for a hot setup.

That said, let's persue this pa120.3 up top/dual pumps in the loop idea. The real goal behind my setup was to keep the rad(s) at the top of the case while providing good cooling for the components that needed it the most (I figured the cpu would be more temp sensitive than the gpus). If you believe that a single loop will end up providing superior cooling, then I'm all for it. A pa120.3 is about 60mm thick, or 2-3/8". Tack on 6 fans for push/pull and we've got a total of 4-3/8", which is great. Will this be the best (I still plan on using the medium yates as mentioned above - with 6 of them it should be plenty of airflow, right?)
How should the loop be set up now, with 2 pumps? I always thought you should have the resevoir right before the pump, that kind of breaks when you introduce a second pump, so where alogn the line should I put it? the two pumps back to back, or halfway between each other, or?

Thanks again to everyone.

[Meatpuppet]

The Pumps: conventional wisdom says to have them one after the other with the first being gravity fed by the reservoir. This keeps the 2nd pump nice and primed and is usually easier to route. I personally try to either have the 2nd pump lower than the 1st so it is also gravity fed. If this is not possible, then run the tubing to the 2nd pump with a small camel hump to give the pump a bit of a gravity feed for the split second before the loop gets chugging.

Radiator: thermochills are frigging huge and pretty much 6 of any fan is enough airflow for a PA120.X. That being said, the PA series are optimized for low CFM fans and you will likely not see a large difference between running 3 vs 6 fans if space/noise is a concern. Luckily this is an easy thing to test so knock yourself out.

[sickboy8820]

From the many yrs doing this and 1k's of posts on this site it doesn't really matter where you throw those two pumps.. All depends on how much space you have in the case.. I've always run Res-Pump-Rad-Pump-CPU-NB-SB-Res etc... So pump before and after the Rad but you can also daisy chain the two pumps together BUT these pumps should be the same... You don't wanna some D5/3.2 pump and then some low end junk pump in line with each other..

[Meatpuppet]

I echo the sentiment of using the same pump, I didn't think that was a concern. As for the orientation, I usually find that it is easier to keep the pumps together which is why I daisy chain them. As is the case with about everything in WC, whatever works best is probably what you should do, as long as the pump is being fed properly.

BTW, I had an afterthought; although I am sure this is just common sense, when you do the initial fill/bleed of the system, make sure to unplug the pump that is not directly connected to the rerervoir.

[Waterlogged]

Some of you guys are gonna think I've lost my senses but... I think this version of this idea will work (if no volt mod is done to the GPU's). Look at it this way, GPU temps drop ~25&#186;-30&#186;C when switched over to water from stock coolers. If the rad catches the warmer air from the CPU rad (which is much bigger than required for the load), do you really think it will raise the temp of the GPU anywhere near where the stock cooler runs? I'm thinking maybe 15&#186;C higher than fresh air..tops. GPU's are made a good bit tougher than other PU's so they'll stand up to the slightly higher water cooled temps just the same. Big deal, now your GPU temps @ load are 58&#186;C instead of 43&#186;C. :p:

[Xilikon]

Some of you guys are gonna think I've lost my senses but... I think this version of this idea will work (if no volt mod is done to the GPU's). Look at it this way, GPU temps drop ~25&#186;-30&#186;C when switched over to water from stock coolers. If the rad catches the warmer air from the CPU rad (which is much bigger than required for the load), do you really think it will raise the temp of the GPU anywhere near where the stock cooler runs? I'm thinking maybe 15&#186;C higher than fresh air..tops. GPU's are made a good bit tougher than other PU's so they'll stand up to the slightly higher water cooled temps just the same. Big deal, now your GPU temps @ load are 58&#186;C instead of 43&#186;C. :p:

I agree with this idea, just set the radiator receiving the hot air from the first radiator so it only cool the non-critical components like the GPU, chipsets and mosfets. The CPU is the one which need the coldest air.

I will repeat a lot, the GPU isn't really limited by temperature but by voltage. Running the GPU at 30C or 60C will yield the same overclocks anyway.

BTW, arnemetis, I participated in the first thread and I forgot to factor this. Waterlogged reminded me about that and that's true indeed so if you are really limited in space, this will work. Just make sure you have fans with lots of static pressure so both radiators get enough airflow, like a 38mm thick fan or at least a Noctua NF-P12.

[Stijndp]

How about this.

____________________
|....[38mm][38mm][38mm]..........|
|..8[=======rad=======].........| <- front of case
|....[|]..........[|]..........[|].........|
|....[=======rad=======]8.......|
|....[25mm][25mm][25mm]..........|
|............................................|

The [|] are some kind of spacers, 1/2" should be enough. The upper fans have higher cfm, that way they will also take some extra cooler air from the case instead of rad.

But like Waterlogged said, gpu's are the tanks of computer hardware so wouldn't matter that much. I even managed to let a 6800gt run 138&#176;C without dying. I tried making it have decent fps in Oblivion :p

[arnemetis]

Sadly, the 35mm fans nor spacers would be acceptable, as the space I have to work with is 5", unless I wanna saw off the top portion of the motherboard. I really appreciate the different ideas though. So it looks like we've come down to two ideas:

1. Still doing the stack idea as proposed, with the cpu and chipset on the lower (cooler) radiator, and the gpu's on the upper (hotter) radiator. There will have to be 25mm fans, and no spacers, between the mcr320's. It is understood the gpus will not be cooled as well, but this is why I planned on using dual triple rads, as the first one may be a bit of overkill, thus not getting as hot as say a more appropriately sized double rad. If this idea will fail without the use of very noisy fans to overcome the static pressure issue, then it must be discarded, because I cannot use 35mm fans, nor do I want a jet engine computer again.

2. Single PA120.3 up top, with 6x 25mm fans cooling it in a push pull to offset the fact that I'm throwing a lot into one loop (If it will make no difference compared to 3x fans, then would it at least let me run them slower and quieter than three alone while maintaining the same performance? Or maybe 3x 35mm fans would be even better?). This loop will utilize dual pumps, and I can think of many ways to keep things gravity fed for res->pump1->pump2, or having the second pump elsewhere on the line. My concern is if this will be adequate cooling for the cpu since it will have the gpus and the chipset all in one.

My hope from the above choices is that the second one will offer superior cooling all around. However my brain keeps making me think that the first scenario will result in cooler cpu/chipset temps, and hotter gpu temps vs the middleground of the second loop. However the introduction of dual pumps in the second setup along with the thermochill radiator and (possibly) better fan choice makes me think that it will be an overall superior loop. I know that the cpu is the most sensitive to temperature, so finding that one setup versus the other would result in an appreciable diference would sell me on it right away. I'm currently leaning towards the single loop idea #2 now, as it simplifies routing so much and allows more flexibility for fans/mounting. Let the discussion continue!

P.S. Xilikon, thanks for chiming in here too. Please don't be offended I started another thread over here, the other one seemed deadlocked with your conclusion, and I just wanted to persue other options. :) Here others have even convinced you that my stack might even be feasable, in a sense, and its provided this dual pump idea. The more the merrier I say.

*edit* It's creepy that Xilikon and Waterlogged are within 1 post of each other in their post counts at the time of this posting

[Xilikon]

Don't worry about me. You have the right to have more opinions and anyway, you will see more experts here than in [H]. For the fan, look at the Noctua NF-P12 which is very silent but with a lot of static pressure, what you really need, all this while staying in the 25mm form factor.

Honestly, it's not like if stacking radiators will cause a rise of 20-30C, more like 5C more so you are still safe. Just do what is best for your case and yourself if you take the right precautions as outlined here.

I didn't notice the postcount of me and waterlogged :p:

[arnemetis]

I'm all about the precautions :D Looked up that noctua fan, they are $20+ each :shocked: That seriously closes the gap in price between the two scenarios, $120+ for fans versus the $36 I was thinking of. With that said, what fans would be best for the second scenario, where I can have 6x120's in 25mm flavor, or just 3x 120's in 25mm or 38mm? Also in the 3x fans on the PA120.3 scenario, I think there will be room to even add the shroud if that would help out/be worth it.

SO, let's get some votes in! I'll welcome pros and cons of both sides now, since BOTH will fit in my case at this time, with my preference being the second scenario for the reasons stated in my above post, and strengthened by the first scenario requiring such specific fans.

Thanks again to everyone, I can't wait to see what people think!

[mike8913]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/mk8913/Untitled-1-2.jpg

black represents the sides of the case and the green are the fans. the purple are the two radiators and the colored arrows are self-explanatory. coool air is sucked into the front of the case and then exhausted from both sides through the radiators.

much more efficient

[arnemetis]

Effecient, yes. But that would be one rediculously wide case to be able to have a fan in between the two stacks on either side. Even if it was set back, most case designs would allow me only a few inches to turn my tubing 90 degrees and then down into the case, impeding this airflow chamber. Also, the swiftech radiators are 5 1/8" wide, and that puts it pretty much touching the motherboard with the stacker. I would require a case that has a larger top segment as well as bottom mounted psu option; I don't really think it will work for me. I do however appreciate the approach, it would definetly be the most effecient setup. (Also how would I get my side panel off, how would the rad be attached?! Wouldn't allow me to have a very clean tubing run since I'd have to have a lot extra to ensure I wouldnt rip everything apart when I took the panel off)

[arnemetis]

So uh noone has any opinions on either of the two options I laid out above?! I understand we got sidetracked with mike8913's suggestion, but I'd like to get back on track here if at all possible. Again, the single radiator with 2 pumps in a single run idea presents a lot of options for fan quantities and types.

The real goal here is to cool the cpu/gpus/chipset somehow. The radiator(s) must be mounted internally, in the top of the case.

[Xilikon]

If nobody have a opinion, it's because both will work well. It's just up to you which way you prefer but I might side a bit on the PA120.3 side because it has a lot of potential and would be easier. You may add a MCR120 on a fan hole for the bit of extra cooling surface if you are not really happy with temps. Don't bother with a shroud, we're talking about just 1C difference in certain configurations and with a shroud, it's best to use in pull configuration.

[TyphooN]

i was thinking about this personally, because it would be easy for me to stack a second radiator.. i still am not sure if it would help much, but i may try it because it wouldn't be very expensive. i know it cant hurt the temps, i just dont know how much it will help.

[arnemetis]

Well then PA120.3 with two pumps on single loop it is. So now all that's left is fan selection. My first thought is stick with 6x medium yate loons now that it won't be so sensitive to static pressure issues. I'll welcome recommendations for alternatives, as long as we don't go the $20 fan route. It could also be possible to do 3x or 6x 38mm thick fans now; I've no experience with the thicker fans however so I don't know which would be best here. Thanks once more, hopefully I can settle this soon and I can get on to ordering stuff.

[SaII]

ya sure the top of your case can handle all that weight?

won't it kind of concave?

[Xilikon]

The PA120.3 can accomodate any fan litterally and you don't need 6 fans to get the most of it. 3 Yate Loon D12SM-12 (4 for 16$ at Petra) would work very well like mine.

[Waterlogged]

i was thinking about this personally, because it would be easy for me to stack a second radiator.. i still am not sure if it would help much, but i may try it because it wouldn't be very expensive. i know it cant hurt the temps, i just dont know how much it will help.

Do NOT stack if both rads are in the same loop, it turns into a futile effort.

[ElEctric_EyE]

It's basically a push/pull setup with an added heat source... Push/pull is more efficient. I would put the hottest rad closer to the fresh air

[TyphooN]

well for me itd be in the same loop, i guess it wouldnt help much huh? i just figured that it could help the temps some.. not too much. has anyone ever tried this?

[ElEctric_EyE]

same loop would be useless. I was thinking 3 stacked rad's in 3 sep loops