NCE Build

[sdumper]

As most of you are aware NoL is building me a 3 stager. He is making good progress and I wanted to make sure he gets recognition for the solid work as he moves towards completion.


Here is the build thread and the latest picts of the pipe work.

Go NoL!!!

http://www.blazingpc.com/forum/showthread.php/sdumpers_nce_3_stage_cascade-6625/index.html?t=6625

[tuchan]

Keep working on it Nol. I wanna see this 3 stager fire uphttp://img54.exs.cx/img54/2200/rockon5nk.gif

[sdumper]

Honestly its already starting to look like a complex build. I don't know how you keep all the pipes straight in your head because just looking at it gets me dizzy ;)

[Planet]

Looking good. Sdumper. I got to see your unit a while back. Looked even better in person. Your gonna love it.

[HoriWanderFuLL]

Gunna be some fun had with that Machine :up:

[runmc]

sdumper


Please take that link out of your signature - read forum rules if necessary. :up:

[sdumper]

Ron: No sweat done :)

Cpt.Planet: Yep Im pretty stoked about it. It was hard to imagine at first but now that the skeleton is coming together its really starting to look amazing!!

[n00b 0f l337]

Going to ice up the second stage as soon as I get wiring done, start with a propane undercharge and see how I can mi up some ethylene into the mix. I dont want colder then a -80C HX or so.

[Polizei]

Why dont you want it as cold as possible? I know it affects the last stage, but how?

[n00b 0f l337]

Too cold and the r14 will have a very low condensing pressure and I'd like to avoid that. I will try with colder, but I think that a -80C to -90C would be best.

[n00b 0f l337]

Awesome precharge dontcha think ;) :th_coolio: :signs013:
Gonna love this, checkout the capillary tube wind and the ice. This is with open hand valve for oil return, temps are indeed awesome. This is also uninsulated with quite a bit of r290 in the loop. Also the probes slightly insulated but not perfect, so we'll easily see -100C on pipes here soon unloaded, going to have to get that down to -80C range tho ;)
Enjoy!

http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/ICE/DSC02702.JPG

http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/ICE/DSC02703.JPG

http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/ICE/DSC02704.JPG

http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/ICE/DSC02705.JPG

[SoddemFX]

Well done Adam :)

Why did you put the access port on your second stage liquid line?

Tom

[n00b 0f l337]

On second thought I would say sure its getting iced up, but I actually don't need to even connect to there, I have a high side pressure gauge on every stage. I have that there simply because its a 1.5 ton filter I had planned and it has an access on it ;)
I gotta say the hand valve + cap tube + temprite 340 works oh so well. I can flux the low side pressure about 5", and high side 5psi, but opening and closing. And leaving it open works just fine.

[gosmeyer]

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=66388&stc=1&d=1193634222

Nice job Adam on hand valves, I don't think Ron could do any better:D

[kayl]

Well done Adam :)

Why did you put the access port on your second stage liquid line?

Tom

Id say no reason, pressure measured there should be the same as before the condenser.

[sdumper]

Looking good NoL...

:)

[Polizei]

So it would be too cold, and this the pressure would be too low to condense the R14?

[SoddemFX]

The pressure will be the same Kayl, it's the temperature on the valve (they aren't meant to be that cold) and the chance of filling a charging line with liquid ethylene/etc. It's just a small thing :)

Tom

[n00b 0f l337]

Gotta love the valves, awesome job by Ron.

[[XC] gomeler]

The pressure will be the same Kayl, it's the temperature on the valve (they aren't meant to be that cold) and the chance of filling a charging line with liquid ethylene/etc. It's just a small thing :)

Tom

Yeah I'd just be worried about the rubber seal shrinking and leaking during normal use :shrug: Nice frost shots there NoL, looking forward to R14 temps.

[n00b 0f l337]

I've seen plenty of suction line featuring a T just as cold. Not a worry.

[Unseen]

why dont you use solenoid valve?
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/3069/pic14qw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
It is easier to press a button i think.

[jinu117]

why dont you use solenoid valve?
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/3069/pic14qw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
It is easier to press a button i think.

ChaChing $$$ :)
Kind of hard to justify something that cost a lot more than compressors.
That is super clean unit u got there Unseen. I might have to just copy cat what you do on larger cascades for that clean slim mean look.
One thing about keeping condensing temp too low could contribute to imbalance of system (like having HUGE condenser for SS unit running on cold winter day effect). But than, it could be tuned on capillary adjustment side for proper codensing too... 2nd stage peroformance would be major key on how this thing operates. (of course 1st stage better work anyways... hence I typically use TXV to make it easier for tune on 1st stage for varying load).

[Unseen]

you mean that solenoid is too expensive there??

[n00b 0f l337]

No I have solenoids, I choose not to go the solenoid route as theres less electrical parts this way. During normal operation I plan to keep that hand valve open.

[sdumper]

NOL this is looking really good!!

I cant wait to get this baby up and benching :)

[Planet]

Hey man I got to see it last night. It looks great. Got cold pretty damn fast. Ill send my pics to nol for you.

[sdumper]

Thanks its always cool to see picts :)

Still trying to figure out the dimensions and weight of this thing. It may be best if I pick it up rather than ship it.

[Planet]

Yea I think you should pick it up. What is it a 20 hour drive. Maybe we can all get together and bench a bit. :) Its def gonna be a beast.

[sdumper]

Ok NOL the 3rd stage compressor should arrive by Friday.

Also have you started building the side panels and have you added the castor rollers to the bottom?

Hopefully you can complete the remaining plumbing and show 3 stage Ice by Wednesday of next week I would think. I would like you to try and load test this at -125c for 3 to 4 hours a day for a 10 day stretch. Or if you really think you wont have any oil leakage or other problems maybe leave it load testing for 2 or 3 days straight. Im still surprised that you believe it can go for 24x7 use without oil leakage but your the Pro and I trust you 100% on this :)

[n00b 0f l337]

It can go quite alot, floated oil sep like this should be quite nearly perfect.
Casters are on it, gotta see about the sides.
The r14 is on the way so can't really do any tuning till then.

[sdumper]

NOL please post the pictures of the completed piping and let me know when the charge is complete. Also can you please start load testing tomorrow so that it gets as much tuning and load testing done as possible prior to the first week of December?

Also I am making arrangements now to either have it shipped or picked up the first weekend of December so we need to wrap this up on time.

[n00b 0f l337]

PM Sent on BPC

[mytekcontrols]

Interesting thread, just now saw it, and read through it. I like the heat exchanger boxes, nice touch.

Earlier these questions and answers were posted:



Why dont you want it as cold as possible? I know it affects the last stage, but how?
Too cold and the r14 will have a very low condensing pressure and I'd like to avoid that. I will try with colder, but I think that a -80C to -90C would be best.
So it would be too cold, and this the pressure would be too low to condense the R14?
The pressure will be the same Kayl, it's the temperature on the valve (they aren't meant to be that cold) and the chance of filling a charging line with liquid ethylene/etc. It's just a small thing



I am curious as to which valve are we talking about?

[n00b 0f l337]

I think they mean the access valve located on the filter/drier right after the 2nd HX.

[mytekcontrols]

Ok that makes sense. At first I thought they were talking about the Red Handle Valve sitting on top of one of the heat exchanger boxes, which I know are quite capable of operation in the -150C or lower range.

Yes the shraeder pin on the access valve would be a problem, but if you cap it with a flare nut and copper bonnet it should be OK (no leaks).

[n00b 0f l337]

Yes which I will do, as well as crimp the access closed after final charge.

[sdumper]

NOL is the oil on schedule to arrive today? I really want to get this unit complete and will call John if it helps speed the shipping up. Sorry to be a pest but I have some very expensive parts arriving this week and really want to bench at some low temps :)

[n00b 0f l337]

Oil arrived today actually (bout time), and am charging the oil sep now, then finishing up the brazing on the third stage.

[n00b 0f l337]

Third stage done and pressure testing begins!
What a maze.
http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/AssemblyComplete/DSC02767.JPG
http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/AssemblyComplete/DSC02768.JPG
http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/AssemblyComplete/DSC02769.JPG
http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/AssemblyComplete/DSC02770.JPG

[[XC] gomeler]

Mmmm looking forward to seeing results and insulation :p:

[n00b 0f l337]

Hahaha um yeah.

[boshuter]

gomeler;2591383']Mmmm looking forward to seeing results and insulation :p:

I bet you aren't the only one ;) Lets see some -140c action :yepp:

[Supertim0r]

that thing is huge :eek:

can't wait to see the temps :clap:

[subzeronick]

mna love the system. kinda a maze and hard to move around in side but i have no room to talk my system is a pice of curd compered to yours:(

[sdumper]

Amazing work NOL cant wait to try the QX9650 out with this puppy.
Insulating this is going to be a piece of cake compared to shipping it so that it arrives in one piece.
Then Im going to need to figure out a way to power this baby up. Im hoping a 30 amp breaker will suffice...

[n00b 0f l337]

I'll have all three stages wired up sperately.

[sdumper]

What I was planning on doing was adding a 30 amp breaker to my fuse box and running 30 am wire out to the dedicated plugs for the sole purpose of running the cascade.

The other components will be powered off of a dedicated 20amp breaker which is already set up for that purpose.

[n00b 0f l337]

Ah so 30 and 20 or am I reading that wrong. 30 alone probably wont be enough when first n second are running and the third gets switched on.

[sdumper]

yep I was thinking a 30 amp for the 3 stages and 20 amp for the actually benching rig...maybe i need a 40 amp for the cascade?

By the way this should do well on cascade...this is on a SS with 1.64 vCore real...

http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=275720

[nachthymnen]

This is a beautiful work!!!:eek: :clap:

[bazx]

nol is the second oil sep a temprite 900

if not can you tell me which one it is

and is it float type

[n00b 0f l337]

The second stage oil sep is a Temprite 300 series, the third stage is a temprite 902. Floated :)

[bazx]

902 you will have to tell me how it does

i have only used the 900

[n00b 0f l337]

Will do, I think its definitly overkill, but going to rock ;)

[bazx]

imo the more automated the unit is the better

The cascade is the last thing you should be worrying about when you are benching

fine looking unit nol

[n00b 0f l337]

Thank you Bazx, you are the ultimate say on fine looking :)
The hand valve on the second stage is to remain open. Originally was testing capillary lengths for oil return, but I've got a liquid seal there so all is good and valve will stay open :)

[sdumper]

Nol How in the heck can we pack this unit so that it doesnt get damaged while shipping? Also does the bottom of the case have any rollers? At 200lbs it might be a bit heavy for me to move around by myself.

[Polizei]

200 pounds?! :eek:

I knew compressors were on the heavy side, but I didnt think they were that heavy.

[n00b 0f l337]

Probably close to 200 or so. Rollers on the bottom mounted on oddly, putting some 2" squares of wood on and then mounting heavy casters to that. Might have to ship those off the unit though, rolling pallets dont get along with gravity.
Going to ship by pallet I think, tons of bubble wrap and that plastic pallet wrap.

[tim-]

nol:
I don't think any shipping company will ship it without pallet, to heavy.

I would recommend a wooden box on pallet or a pallet with pallet collers.. like this:

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51261506/Wooden_Pallet_Collar.jpg

a top would be great too.

[n00b 0f l337]

Ya definitly, thats how we'll probablyend up shipping. Just need to find a shipping company thats decently affordable and insures ;)

[Sneil]

If you can afford the time to drive and pick it up, that would be the absolute best option. Lookin good nol:)

[AliG]

that'll be a long drive to and from NJ from Atlanta, but I suppose worth it, that way he saves money on shipping (200lbs aint cheap to ship) and the risk of something getting damaged is far less if he has control of it since he'll be extremely careful with the beast

[tim-]

georgia -> new jersey

it's a couple of miles ;)

[n00b 0f l337]

UPS service seems to be about $200 to ship a pallet. However that changes heavily based on its "class" which is an option I did not understand nor did the search for class tool help at all.
Class 50 is $200 ish with insurance to $5000,
And Class 500 is $900, so lets figure that out ;)

Ah, Class is based on liability per pound. Well at Class 85-100 then charges are only $200 total ish.

[Sneil]

georgia -> new jersey

it's a couple of miles ;)

According to google map, 881 mi – about 13 hours 41 mins. To me its worth it for something like this as it would basically eliminate the possibility of any shipment gone wrong headaches. It has happened before with cascades being severely damaged and getting the insurance worked out may be a big drawn out hassle. But thats just my personal opinion.

[n00b 0f l337]

That is true, but UPS via pallet is quite good.

[[XC] gomeler]

All depends if SDumper knows somebody with a small truck or maybe a big back seat. With gas prices being as high as they are, that is a factor to take into consideration.

[n00b 0f l337]

Think 20 MPG in a truck, 881 * 2 is 1762. 1762/20 is 88.1 gallons. At $3.25 a gallon or so thats definitly more then shipping and plus the time to drive...

[sdumper]

I drive a two seater Audi TT coupe convertible and the wife drives a Volvo XC90 so me picking it up would also entail renting a truck...

I would rather have UPS ship this but I want to pack the interior full of t-shirts, foam whatever so that it cant shift at all while shipping. If this thing were to shift and break a line that would be a disaster for me..

Jinu117 is an expert at packing maybe we could pick his brain. When he shipped my SS to me he had some foam which molded so that the unit wasnt able to shift at all. Not sure where he got the foam though :(

[tim-]

it will cost alot more to drive and grab it then ship it + i don't think it's too big risk to ship on pallet, never heard of problems with pallet shipping..

regards
Tim

[n00b 0f l337]

Instaaaapakkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!
:)

[sdumper]

Shweet...thanks NoL i didnt know what it was called but it worked great :)

you de man!!

[runmc]

Hopefully you can complete the remaining plumbing and show 3 stage Ice by Wednesday of next week I would think. I would like you to try and load test this at -125c for 3 to 4 hours a day for a 10 day stretch. Or if you really think you wont have any oil leakage or other problems maybe leave it load testing for 2 or 3 days straight. Im still surprised that you believe it can go for 24x7 use without oil leakage but your the Pro and I trust you 100% on this :)

It can't leak anything or it doesn't work. I'm willing to take side bets that you can't run it 24/7 :) PM me if your interested. :ROTF:

Go get um NOL :up:

[n00b 0f l337]

He's gotta sleep some times Ron ;)
But these temprite 902's are used in cascade systems professionally and I've seen em that run 24/7/365.

[sdumper]

It can't leak anything or it doesn't work. I'm willing to take side bets that you can't run it 24/7 :) PM me if your interested. :ROTF:

Go get um NOL :up:

To be honest at those temps so many things can go wrong that I wont be running this longer than it takes to get some benching done. Not to mention the cost of the electric ...

[n00b 0f l337]

Thats definitely true, insulation is going to be pretty hard I think.

[runmc]

I guess you can open the windows in your basement cause it's gonna get mighty hot:explode2: with those three compressors purring :cat: along..

[n00b 0f l337]

What oc'er doesnt bench with the windows open?

[AliG]

just wondering, how much heat will a single stage put out into your room?

[n00b 0f l337]

Well just the single? Your computer heat output + 200-250w?

[AliG]

yeah, a simple setup (dual core with weak gpu, 6600gt), I think I may end up selling my single when I done with my fun (that is after I actually finish it and end up ocing etc) just because of the extra power consumption, my dad's cheap and wouldn't want to pay the power bill:p:

[jinu117]

As for shipping, structural styrofoam at bottom, bolt whole thing to pallet through it, Potential moving objects need to be secured, some instapak between components that could jiggle (compressors, some tubings), and outer perimeter of it, than outside box preferably made out of wood or at least something that can hold 500lbs+.
Basically reduce void as much as possible (and the packing peanut foams won't do a thing in this case as they will move around).
Honestly, I don't see why shipping damage is really big issue once properly packed when I have received Laser Engraver with big fat glass tube on it without damage all the way from China.

[n00b 0f l337]

Yep got a bunch of #10 instapak bags.

[n00b 0f l337]

http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/Insulated/DSC02778.JPG
http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/Insulated/DSC02779.JPG
http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/Insulated/DSC02780.JPG
Looking less evil everyday ;)

[AliG]

good luck with that, that's a crap load of tubing to insulate

[n00b 0f l337]

You have no idea. I need to pickup more rolls of tape insulation.

[boshuter]

UPS service seems to be about $200 to ship a pallet. However that changes heavily based on its "class" which is an option I did not understand nor did the search for class tool help at all.
Class 50 is $200 ish with insurance to $5000,
And Class 500 is $900, so lets figure that out ;)

Ah, Class is based on liability per pound. Well at Class 85-100 then charges are only $200 total ish.

You may run into problems with any insurance unless you tell them that it has a flammable gas(ethylene), that will run into big bucks with having to be shipped with hazardous placards. If you don't tell them and there is a problem it could open a whole new can of worms.;)

[sdumper]

Boshuter: That sounds expensive :(
Im sure your right but man that sounds like its going to get expensive.

Regarding the heat output...No windows which open in the basement room its going in but I have an air conditioning duct on moveable tubing and a double door leading into the finished section of the basement.

If it gets too hot in the room I will crank up the AC and turn on the ceiling fan..

Now dealing with the wife and kids is the real challenge :)
I have twin girls who are 8 and a son who is 5 1/2 and they are very curious to a fault sometimes. In fact I lost a very nice ES 6700 a year or so ago when my daughter cranked up my rig without turning my old Chilly1 on...not good...

[boshuter]

Boshuter: That sounds expensive :(
Im sure your right but man that sounds like its going to get expensive.

Well, I'm willing to bet that almost none of the people that are building and shipping cascades are telling the shipping company that it contains hazardous materials ;)

[jinu117]

Your bet is off, sorry my friend :)

[Sneil]

You really need to understand how dangerous this thing is, it is a bomb and needs to be treated like one. Are you guys putting this in some type of enclosure? With children that age i would hope so, also some sort of locking mechanism on the power just in case second or 3rd stage is fired up without the others:( And cranking the AC wont help much with the power bill either hehe;) lookn good tho!:)

[boshuter]

Your bet is off, sorry my friend :)

I don't think so.... I did say "almost". If you do ship them as hazardous, I'm still betting you are in a very small minority. ;)

[runmc]

You really need to understand how dangerous this thing is, it is a bomb and needs to be treated like one. Are you guys putting this in some type of enclosure? With children that age i would hope so, also some sort of locking mechanism on the power just in case second or 3rd stage is fired up without the others:( And cranking the AC wont help much with the power bill either hehe;) lookn good tho!:)

Correct - and all electrical wiring and components should be insulated or enclosed from shock hazard. The terminals on top of compressors and capacitors are a death threat.:eek: insulation is coming along nicely. It might be a good idea to wait until you have third stage running before you insulate. If your not happy with something you'll have to tear back into insulation.

This is a giant undertaking, especially when it's going to be shipped. :) Good luck NOL :up:

[n00b 0f l337]

$19 to add Hazmat to a UPS pallet shipment ;)

[sdumper]

$19 :) I like that price.
FYI: Mailed you the rubber mounts and fan from the rotary today...should be at your house in 2 days.

Regarding enclosure ... . I never thought it might actually explode and a metal enclosure may help in that event. Not to mention keeping hands off this unit.

no mention of sales please - runmc

[sdumper]

Maybe just cut sheet metal screwed down to the top of the frame with some hinged sided so that the sides can be opened to get inside.

Or maybe some instructions on how to build my own with out adding too much heat build up.

[Moc]

It will not explode - or if it will, a metal enclosure will not save your life :) .

[n00b 0f l337]

Hahaha I dont think really explode is even a possibility. Okay its a possibility, but so many things have to go wrong, that its no more dangerous then say a gas oven.

[sdumper]

You obviously havent had my wifes cooking in the gas oven then...

So the only risk is electric shock?

[n00b 0f l337]

Which is pretty null as I dont leave the electronics open. Heatshrink for all, but yes touching live capacitors is always bad. Same with working in a live PC.

[sdumper]

Does that also go for sticking my fingers in the wall socket ;)

[kayl]

Does that also go for sticking my fingers in the wall socket ;)

butter knife works better :ROTF:

[[XC] 2long4u]

Yea like this!:rofl:
68224

[Planet]

butter knife works better :ROTF:

fork > knife. You can get the prongs in both parts of the socket. :D

[tiborrr]

imo the more automated the unit is the better

The cascade is the last thing you should be worrying about when you are benching

fine looking unit nol

I like to have all the valves operated manualy by hand, both stages manualy controlled. Great thing when fighting cold boot bugs on Yorkfields :D.

Automatization is for the frightened people or for the people that don't know to read gauges :up:

[Moc]

But if you sell a cascade to someone who has no knowledge "manualy controlled " could be a big failure...

[sdumper]

Are Yorkfield cold bugging?
Anybody posted any Ln2 attempts? Ive seen some dryIce by SliDog but havent seen anyone go really cold yet.

Agreed valves would be nice but im deffering to NoL and his judment. I can always use shims if I need to ...

[n00b 0f l337]

I think a hand valve can be a major pain for controlling temperatures, a bit too much and your evap temp can skyrocket. Not the best.
Sure a CPEV system could be useful instead, but I prefer shims when coldbugs are the issue. That or cranking the volts ;)

[Planet]

From what I have seen some chips bug at -50 and then work great until -110C after its booted. I have also seen people being able to directly boot at -100 c or colder. It really depends on the chip itself and the board.

[marru]

Automatization is for the frightened people or for the people that don't know to read gauges :up:

Automatization is for those that are too smart not to bee lazy ;)

[teyber]

fork > knife. You can get the prongs in both parts of the socket. :D

wrong!
you want to hold a knife on either hand, one hand going into + other going into - side. This way the current flows through your heart :ROTF: really though, this is why you always work on electricity with one hand if possible

[[XC] 2long4u]

You are both wrong. With AC current you only need the hot wire.

[teyber]

You are both wrong. With AC current you only need the hot wire.

o :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:... donde esta mi cabesa

[n00b 0f l337]

Unless your bodies already at a potential of the wall voltage :)

[[XC] 2long4u]

Its on your shoulders, goofball!

[sdumper]

Hey NOL hows the pressure testing coming along?

[n00b 0f l337]

Pressure tests all done, vacuuming out 2nd again and then charging with r1150 tomorrow and switching gauge set to 3rd stage and vacuuming.

[boshuter]

What happend to the second stage..... thought it was running a month and a half ago? :shrug:

[n00b 0f l337]

Oh it was, and had my gauge set on there.
What I didnt know was that after screwing the schrader back in on the low side, it had not gone in all the way (this is via my valve core remover), thus poomf ;)

[boshuter]

Oh it was, and had my gauge set on there.
What I didnt know was that after screwing the schrader back in on the low side, it had not gone in all the way (this is via my valve core remover), thus poomf ;)


LOL... the little things that make life so interesting :yepp:

[n00b 0f l337]

I actually only noticed it when I removed the gauges and noticed pressure gauge dropping ;) Seems also my valve core remover somehow flanged up inside and that caused it. Taking it apart to see if I can fix it. One of my most useful tools and I dont want to replace it.

[teyber]

I actually only noticed it when I removed the gauges and noticed pressure gauge dropping ;) Seems also my valve core remover somehow flanged up inside and that caused it. Taking it apart to see if I can fix it. One of my most useful tools and I dont want to replace it.
well how much was your core removal? i picked up 2 for 8$ each, is there a lack of quality in the cheaper ones?

[n00b 0f l337]

Not what your thinking Teyber, this allows me to remove the valve core with refrigerant in the system, as well as lower vacuum times, and such.

[teyber]

Not what your thinking Teyber, this allows me to remove the valve core with refrigerant in the system, as well as lower vacuum times, and such.

ah, silly me. Man im off today!
Yeah those are a little more expensive:down:

[sdumper]

Any progress and did the fan and mounts arrive today?
Whats the ETA for some ice?

[n00b 0f l337]

Got fan and mounts today as well as precharged the 2nd stage, 3rd stage now vacuuming and then true tuning begins. Wipping up the temporary wiring for the 3rd stage then heading to bed.
The mounts don't seem ripped at all as you said, dunno what you meant by that then, so am putting them on :)

[sdumper]

Now for the big question...


Do I need to condensation proof for cascade any differently than I do for SS use?

Im using an ASUS Maximus Extreme for my first run and due to the relatively high price of this board I will be trying to keep it intact :eek:

[n00b 0f l337]

Same but more.

[sdumper]

Any updates and pictures on the progress?

[n00b 0f l337]

Sorry not right now, just was at a family party tonight for Hannukah, more progress later tomorrow!

[[XC] 2long4u]

Did you wear your yamika?

[harvshark]

NOL's chiller has been doing a yeoman's job since installed. What is the next step for 24/7 operation?? This sob has benn cooking 24/7 for almost a year. I have read that unit with more that one stage have to be shut down to let oiling problems correct themselves...........is this correct?

[Polizei]

If the oil separator has an automatic float, no, the oil will make its way back to the compressor when it reaches a certain level in the separator.

If the oil separator has a hand valve, I think you need the compressor on to force the oil through the open valve back to the compressor.

[sdumper]

Any updates sir NOL :)

[sdumper]

NOL last we talked you were going to tune this puppy all weekend. Hows the tuning coming can you give me an update and a confirmation that your still on track for load testing prior to 12/15?

Not trying to be a pest just getting anxious for the delivery.

[n00b 0f l337]

Not a problem, PM in a few with some details.

[sdumper]

Any updates on progress are you still on track for completing the unit , tuning and stability before 12/15.

[n00b 0f l337]

Okay thats fine.
PM Doesnt seem to work, is your box full?
I'm getting a 404

[sdumper]

let me check...

PM me over at BPC...

[kayl]

sdumper and nol, please keep transaction information to emails please. (ie money etc and transfer of funds etc)

[jimmsch]

This thing is just crazy!!! Got any more pics?

[sdumper]

Any updates on progress are you still on track for completing the unit , tuning and stability before 12/15.

bump

[runmc]

If this thread turns into a customer/builder relations thread, it will be moved. It's almost gone too far as is. Please keep personal build related questions to private messages.
thank you :)

[n00b 0f l337]

Ah sorry bout that Ron,
My main comps dead so been stuck checking from other comps not at home and from my palm.

[sdumper]

Will do ... that was not the intent sorry Ron/Kayl..

[sdumper]

NOL what sort of temps are you getting on each stage so far.
Also what do you recommend using for shimms in case my QX9650 has a cold bug?

[n00b 0f l337]

Searching out a leak still. The first is still very solid in sub -40C range.
For shims I'd say maybe some 1/16" copper ?

[bassie]

Is it possible to warm up the cpu a bit faster with a hot gas bypas on the 3 stage? I think it would help in case of a cold bug.

[n00b 0f l337]

I dont think so as well as you'd lose alot of capacity by having hot gas entering such a low temp evaporator. Shims are the way to go in my opinion.

[[XC] gomeler]

Well they only seem to have a boot cold-bug, so you could do the hotgas bypass into the evaporator just to get the machine to boot then you shut off the bypass and start ramping up the clocks.

[Planet]

Most of the cold boot issues are related to the motherboard and the motherboards bios.

[sdumper]

Good to know.

Getting pretty excited about this build....

[kayl]

Most of the cold boot issues are related to the motherboard and the motherboards bios.

its very much the same thing as the cold boot issue with the older dual core cpus, isnt mars ment to have fixed this issue.

[J-Bo]

How much do you have in this setup, if you don't mind me asking. :)

[sdumper]

How much do you have in this setup, if you don't mind me asking. :)

How much of what?:shrug:

[TopherTony]

He means money invested

[sdumper]

I would rather not discuss the cost to build this unit.

[Renegade5399]

Neither would I. :rofl: :shrug:

[[XC] gomeler]

How much do you have in this setup, if you don't mind me asking. :)

If you have to ask you can't afford it :yepp: :D

[J-Bo]

gomeler;2637603']If you have to ask you can't afford it :yepp: :D

Whatevar.....

[teyber]

Whatevar.....

for this to be for you, it will be several thousand dollars. You should pm a builder and say how much would it cost me for you to build a similar unit:up: as its a forum policy not to mention cost on open forum.


Regards

[Planet]

gomeler;2637603']If you have to ask you can't afford it :yepp: :D

Thats the truth, thats how life is.

[J-Bo]

for this to be for you, it will be several thousand dollars. You should pm a builder and say how much would it cost me for you to build a similar unit:up: as its a forum policy not to mention cost on open forum.


Regards


I appreciate you giving me an actual answer. And several thousand isn't too much. I really don't see how it would be. You guys are too used to kids registering and asking dumb questions. Yes I am new to phase change and no I am not new to spending money on my rig....:D

[jinu117]

I appreciate you giving me an actual answer. And several thousand isn't too much. I really don't see how it would be. You guys are too used to kids registering and asking dumb questions. Yes I am new to phase change and no I am not new to spending money on my rig....:D

Yeah, the original comment on what someone can't afford without knowing person is... bit off. I've had plenty of customers age over 40s (some into 50s) who already has enough in their pocket to spend around as long as they get what their money deserves.
In fact, if you look around hard hitting benchers... you rarely see teens if ever, most of them are in 30+s as far as I know.

[n00b 0f l337]

Yep very true, damn retirement funds and lifes savings working for there love-with-hardware-lives.
So all leaks fixed up, finally found the last suckers, pinholes appearing at 350 psi on gauges with locktite I"ll wrench open tomorrow, but the big annoyance was instead between the plate HX at a joint I didnt even braze, in the cube condenser!

[teyber]

Yep very true, damn retirement funds and lifes savings working for there love-with-hardware-lives.
So all leaks fixed up, finally found the last suckers, pinholes appearing at 350 psi on gauges with locktite I"ll wrench open tomorrow, but the big annoyance was instead between the plate HX at a joint I didnt even braze, in the cube condenser!

holy... 350psi? what a pain! reminds me of what wdrzl said once... a first charge of r22 clears up sulfur deposits(i'm pretty sure sulfur...) and exposes new leaks that are to be found later...

Peace homie

[boshuter]

How on earth did you get propane pressurized to 300 psi ?

[sdumper]

Yep very true, damn retirement funds and lifes savings working for there love-with-hardware-lives.


Hey now .... im not that old :rofl:

[sdumper]

NOL any updates?

[n00b 0f l337]

Ya will post up in a few.

[[XC] 2long4u]

I wanna see pics!!

[n00b 0f l337]

Well had some problems with sealing gauges, so just waiting on the new goop to cure. Thats bout it, then gotta vac 2nd again

[runmc]

Still leaking??

[Planet]

^^ Last I heard he was waiting on the goop to dry for 64 hours or w/e it takes

[kayl]

Well had some problems with sealing gauges, so just waiting on the new goop to cure. Thats bout it, then gotta vac 2nd again

i always do this and HPCO joins before i assemble unit. Pressure test them before hand and install afer saves alot of work if there is a leak.

[n00b 0f l337]

Heres the thing, I did, but only 250 psi. That didnt show the leak, held just fine, I just dont think the stuff could handle the 350 I then went and pressure tested the entire thing with. Replaced with red threadlock, the power stuff, and curing up. Taking longer then it says tho its still a little gooy.

[boshuter]

Heres the thing, I did, but only 250 psi. That didnt show the leak, held just fine, I just dont think the stuff could handle the 350 I then went and pressure tested the entire thing with. Replaced with red threadlock, the power stuff, and curing up. Taking longer then it says tho its still a little gooy.

You can't tell if that red threadlocker is cured by seeing if it's "a little gooey"... that is an anaerobic sealer, which means it cures in an absence of air, that part outside the threads will remain "gooy" because it's exposed to air. Just let it cure like it says on the package and it will be fine, it doesn't take that long to cure.

[sdumper]

The thread lock has cured and pressure testing second stage complete.
I believe NOL is pressure testing the 3rd stage now.

[n00b 0f l337]

Yep am doing. So beginning vacuum tomorrow or later tonight on the second.

[sdumper]

hows this coming along any progress?

[n00b 0f l337]

Already posted on BPC scott, its vacuuming, will put r1150 in the third tomorrow to test the system, then remove that almost completely later for the r14.

[sdumper]

Ok cool sounds good....

[sdumper]

NOL thanks for the update this unit is beginning to really show some signs of its potential now :)

[n00b 0f l337]

Dont want to post the movie here, but -122C already, and heres a pic at -112C as the first and second stage temps started rising due to undercharge.
Third stage with 22 psi high side, full vac third.

[n00b 0f l337]

http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/-112c.jpg
Mmmmm tasty.

[TopherTony]

very nice adam, is that fully insulated?

[n00b 0f l337]

Nope just 36" of flexline, and almost completely untuned.

[TopherTony]

what about the 1st and 2nd stages, hx's? those all naked still?

[n00b 0f l337]

No those are box insulated. Plenty of pipes still not though.

[n00b 0f l337]

http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/DSC02822.JPG
Mmmm so tasty ;)
Cant wait to get the r14 in there.

[DagoDuck]

Sweet! :eek:

[n00b 0f l337]

Just wait for r14.
Also; high side pressures are.
First stage at 190
Second stage at 175
Third at 30 ish.
So got alot of charging room to go.

[kayl]

Just wait for r14.
Also; high side pressures are.
First stage at 190
Second stage at 175
Third at 30 ish.
So got alot of charging room to go.



nice work NOL, so you have 1150 in the second and 3rd stage at the moment?

[n00b 0f l337]

Yep!

[boshuter]

I saw your update at BPC.... looks like it's coming along fine.

Is 300psi static in second stage normal? That sounds high, what does discharge pressure run?

[jinu117]

I saw your update at BPC.... looks like it's coming along fine.

Is 300psi static in second stage normal? That sounds high, what does discharge pressure run?


You gotta be kidding on that 300 PSI static...

[tim-]

nice one adam,
have you solved the leaking flare connections? glad to hear.

[runmc]

Is 300psi static in second stage normal?

not right -!!!:eek:

[tim-]

run,
thats not correct, it all depends on how the system is built, a large high side and a small lowside can cause such issues, as well as static in regular SS (nl11f/fx) is about 5bar(75psi) compare to rotary one which is nearly 10bar(150psi).. it's all about the volume on high as well as low side.

but sure 300psi sounds a little bit to much to be healty for the flexhose, add an expansiontank on suctionside to lower it to a better level, like 150psi.. the typicall flexlines is normally not rated for more then 20-25bar (300-375psi).. would avoid to keep static in those ranges then just to be safe.. but i've heard about other users who have simular statics, due to the lack of expansiontank

[LardArse]

yes i had similar static pressures cos i got no expansion tank :D

[Dualist]

Is 300psi static in second stage normal?
I'm glad I'm in a different country when you switch that on dude :shocked:

[[XC] gomeler]

Well when the 1st stage is running, the 2nd stage will be chilled down via the HX and pressures will drop into an acceptable operating range very quickly. 300psi static with solid piping doesn't sound too bad to me. 150psi would be nice with an expansion tank but the system should never have to startup with 300psi static and I doubt it'll ever see 300psi on the high-side while operating. Now if this was the 3rd stage with the flexible steel line, then I'd be afraid.

[boshuter]

yes i had similar static pressures cos i got no expansion tank :D

It has a large expansion tank, he must just have needed a lot of ethylene in that stage for some reason.


Stage Two: Sdumpers Rotary single stage de-commissioning
3/4-7/8hp Tecumseh Rotary compressor
Chilly1 Single stage condenser, or the original condenser without fan in front of condenser fan
Temprite 304 Oil separator
Packless 1k-Burst Hand Valve
(Into the HX)
Capillary Tubing
Plate HX (16-20)
r1150
Safety cut-off, relief, expansion tank, de-composite pressure relief

[jinu117]

gomeler;2672103']Well when the 1st stage is running, the 2nd stage will be chilled down via the HX and pressures will drop into an acceptable operating range very quickly. 300psi static with solid piping doesn't sound too bad to me. 150psi would be nice with an expansion tank but the system should never have to startup with 300psi static and I doubt it'll ever see 300psi on the high-side while operating. Now if this was the 3rd stage with the flexible steel line, then I'd be afraid.

Our copper line only holds about 500-800psi. Braided flex holds upwards of 2500-3000 psi. If someone operates the damned 2nd stage without first stage working for whatever reasons... I don't want to think too much. I just think 300 psi is mis spelling.

[sdumper]

I dont think it was typo I asked NOL about it and he reminded me it was a using 3 large rotaries...

[[XC] gomeler]

Our copper line only holds about 500-800psi. Braided flex holds upwards of 2500-3000 psi. If someone operates the damned 2nd stage without first stage working for whatever reasons... I don't want to think too much. I just think 300 psi is mis spelling.

Not everyone uses braided steel, even though they should which was more of the point I was attempting to make.

edit: that could be unclear, was pointing the difference between solid copper and unbraided flexline.

[n00b 0f l337]

Sorry misread gauge!
Actually 212, however with first stage running drops into 50-60. Theres a bit of wasted high side volume, and heavily overcharged on second stage for the moment.
Theres always reason to the madness.

[n00b 0f l337]

http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/R14/DSC02847.JPG
Well gotta say, r14 is very nice ;)
Might have to switch to .036" or .040" on first stage though. Def need a bit more capacity there.

[sdumper]

That is absolutely awesome NOL!!

[teyber]

:clap:

[runmc]

Now that's cold Adam :up: Way to go man :D

[n00b 0f l337]

Probably looking at about -130C or so unloaded when fully charged up; ya shes a beauty.

[sdumper]

No chance of getting that -130c for futuremark runs?

[before]

Very nice temp :) Congrats!

[jinu117]

Do I have different PT chart from other people? -25.81449161hg?

[[XC] 2long4u]

Jin, he said he needs to retune. Lets hope it's not just the first stage.

[kayl]

nice work nol :clap:
have you checked it with a k-type meter to make sure meter reads correct?

[n00b 0f l337]

Yes I have. :)

[kayl]

Yes I have. :)

nice work :up:

[jan]

very nice results you got there. can't wait to see the cascade in action when it is finaly tuned for a load :)

[DagoDuck]

Very well done my friend. :up:

[Polizei]

Thats getting in the realm of ricky with his methane or whatever his -176c run was.

Well done. :up:

[mytekcontrols]

Fantastic temps Nol!!! :up:
But you must be running in a low vacuum to get that cold with only R14 (not much mass flow). I think you're speculation of -130C unloaded when tuned, will probably yield some useful work. Still... pretty dam awesome!


Thats getting in the realm of ricky with his methane or whatever his -176c run was.
I'd like to see that one. Anyone got a link to it?

[Polizei]

Here (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=138453&highlight=ricky+stove) you go mytek. :)

[n00b 0f l337]

Ya I wish I had some methane to throw up numbers like that, even if just unloaded and low vacuum.

[Fujimitsu]

Here (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=138453&highlight=ricky+stove) you go mytek. :)

:eek:

Wow...

[boshuter]

Do I have different PT chart from other people? -25.81449161hg?

Suicide run :up:

And I got called a fool and a hack for running a rotary at 0psi... hope the compression ratio cop doesn't see this :rofl:


Good job getting this far NOL... waiting for loaded numbers :up:

[n00b 0f l337]

Adding another 5ft captube of .031" to first stage today and vaccing again soon enough.
And yes heavy in vacuum, but compressor temps are just fine on the compressor oddly enough. Guess a discharge of around 50 psi helps.

[[XC] gomeler]

Very impressive, going to be funny if sdumper can coldbug a yorkfield/x38 combo with a cascade.

[sdumper]

Now for the magic question what sort of benching temps can you get me.
Im not going to be loading anymore than a 3DMark, PCMark or Vantage run gives me.

I would prefer as cold as you can go for that type of use and ill shim for any cold bug...

[[XC] gomeler]

Well 3D06's CPU test beats up processors pretty good. I personally can run the VGA tests on my crappy cascade just fine at 4700MHz but I have to drop to 4600MHz right now just to keep my Q6600 stable. This is on a roughly 50/50 mix of propane and carbon dioxide in the second stage, but it's still something to keep in mind as it'll be similar with your unit. 4 cores at 5+GHz generate a lot of heat.

[n00b 0f l337]

Not as much as the old QX6***, but def alot. Still looking at 250-300 w of load.

[Philly_Boy]

Probably looking at about -130C or so unloaded when fully charged up; ya shes a beauty.
:shocked: :shocked: :shocked: That's gonna be a beastly beast!! Congrats on getting her this far!


Not as much as the old QX6***, but def alot. Still looking at 250-300 w of load.
Let me know if you want me to bring a quad rig over to load test.
I've had my QX6700 rig (see sig) to 4.7ghz, but under LN2.
The cpu was reading -115c per core loaded that day.
It'd be pretty sweet to be able to do that on a cascade.
I'd do this just to see a few 3D Mark 06 runs with my 8800 Ultra's.
At least sdumper would know what to expect when he gets the unit in hand......

[n00b 0f l337]

Up to Scott! :)

[sdumper]

Hmm how about I send you a few chips of mine to use...

[n00b 0f l337]

Would def rather not do that ;)
Don't have the collateral incase I kill something; meanwhile Don can kill his stuff and be okay with it ;)
Plus he does have one of the hottest quads I've seen.

[sdumper]

Id rather not Adam...I have a little bit of money wrapped up in this build and Id like to be the first to use it.

[n00b 0f l337]

Ay-ok with me, load testers hotter then every anyway ;)
Well draining the first stage at the moment.

[Sneil]

nice work n00b, love those suicide shots:D

[n00b 0f l337]

Going to be trying a very small amount of argon as well when we get to final tunings. Very slow and very little. But definitly have alot of flow to play with ;)

[sdumper]

Any updates?

[n00b 0f l337]

2 hours so far loaded at 200W holding -131C, 255W @ -126C. Damn thats good. Temps on first and second were rising on the post hx, so still holding load just fine, but going to get them back to overcharged now that I have so much more overhead available with captube change. :)
Damn I'm happy as hell with that. Remembering the first post here, it was aimed at -125C for superpi, well one core superpi he can do at -140C or so!
Thats how long a 3 stager takes guys. 1000 posts ;)
http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/Done!/DSC02850.JPG
http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2007/SDumpers/NCE/Done!/DSC02851.JPG
Post from BPC, was about to update here. Gotta check your home forum Scott ;) ;)

[sdumper]

Good deal thanks for the update!!

[tim-]

do you use a variac? if so those 200w isnt what you have on the loadtester :(

cheers
tim

[n00b 0f l337]

Oh I'm still cranking load up. What do you think the variac reduces, I'll tell ya after you make a guess as I tested with and without it. Also, almost every builder here has it, so when we say a load is such and such, we're all accounting for variac then. And then we're basically back in a circle and reaccounting, so not as huge a load on evap maybe, but we've had it in there all along.

[teyber]

Oh I'm still cranking load up. What do you think the variac reduces, I'll tell ya after you make a guess as I tested with and without it. Also, almost every builder here has it, so when we say a load is such and such, we're all accounting for variac then. And then we're basically back in a circle and reaccounting, so not as huge a load on evap maybe, but we've had it in there all along.
I would just rough tune it to the load tester, maybe add 15 watts or so (just a guess) but then fine tune on the cpu itself... as we are just guessing with cpu wattages anyways.

damn nice results nol!

[tim-]

well it depends on what we are talking about, i know industrial units is up to 98-99% effiency, but I've also seen those which has lower then 90%..

regards
Tim

[n00b 0f l337]

Yep but I really cannot accept a CPU and mobo and powersupply to load test, honestly too much liability to borrow, and too much cost to buy.
My variac is 1500VA, 0-140, 10a max.