which is better?

[71 (Bryan)]

i cant seem to find a d-tek fuzion (in-stock) anywhere
so i was thinking of getting a swiftech apogee gtx instead
so, what would be the difrence (tempwise on a quadcore)?

[Xilikon]

Can you find a EK Supreme block ? It's the other best choice.

[71 (Bryan)]

so its like:
1. D-tek
2. EK
3. Swiftech?

[Xilikon]

EK and D-Tek are equal in many cases. The only negative would be the higher restriction with the EK but if you are doing a CPU-only loop, it's fine.

[Fujimitsu]

EK and D-Tek are equal in many cases. The only negative would be the higher restriction with the EK but if you are doing a CPU-only loop, it's fine.

He's got a pretty weak pump if I remember correctly.

Honestly not sure how it will work out though, I would think he'd still be alright with only 1 block.

[71 (Bryan)]

i can wait for the d-tek and might be able to (just might) get a beefier pump
idk, im gonna sleep on it
thx anyways guys
EDIT: after seeing that the EK is better than a fuzion on a quad core (review)
im choosing the EK

[smee]

i can wait for the d-tek and might be able to (just might) get a beefier pump
idk, im gonna sleep on it
thx anyways guys
EDIT: after seeing that the EK is better than a fuzion on a quad core (review)
im choosing the EK

Good choice!

What pump do you have?

[71 (Bryan)]

i dont really have a pump yet, i was thinking of getting a dd-cpx1 but if thats to weak, ill get a beefier one

[smee]

Yea don't get that fishing weight.... get the Laing D5 (aka MCP655).

[71 (Bryan)]

yeah, i was think about getting that one instead of the ddcpx
EDIT: or a mcp355 with a petra top

[smee]

The D5 has more flow than the MCP355, but the MCP is 355.
And the D5 is a bit bigger.

Either one will work, except i prefer the D5.

[71 (Bryan)]

the d5 is kinda ugly also =S

[NaeKuh]

the d5 is kinda ugly also =S

I also +1 a D5.

Trust me, there tons more reliable then a DDC-3.2


The D5 has more flow than the MCP355, but the MCP is 355.
And the D5 is a bit bigger.

Either one will work, except i prefer the D5.

DDC's failure rate is almost 10x that of a D5. You sure you want that pump now? :T

[71 (Bryan)]

erm no

[smee]

The D5 has more flow than the MCP355, but the MCP is 355.
And the D5 is a bit bigger.

Either one will work, except i prefer the D5.

Oops typo, I said:

The D5 has more flow than the MCP355, but the MCP is 355.

I meant to say:

The D5 has more flow than the MCP355, but the MCP355 is quieter.

[71 (Bryan)]

lol but now, i cant even seem to find an ek supreme either =S

[lior307]

there is a D-tek Fusion in jab-store

[hollaback04]

there is a D-tek Fusion in jab-store

good try they are out of stock lol

[NaeKuh]

i just picked up an EK supreme @ jab-tech yesterday for my next build, and to give martin a chance to put it under some tests, and also play around with tweeking the nozzles.

i think there were a couple more.

[boar_d_laze]

I've heard that Laing addressed the weaknesses of the second generation 18W pumps; and now, in their third generation, they're quite reliable -- especially; with any of the better OEM tops like the Petra or the Alphacool e.g. IIRC, that's from Laing by way of Petra. But I could be wrong. You guys seem to have other, better information. What is the failure rate for the MCP 355 with an OEM top? What is the failure rate for the D5? From where is the information sourced?

Real-world LC loops will have a higher flow rate with an MCP 355 with an OEM top than they would with a D5. The D5's flow rate is only higher at unrealistically low restrictions. That having been said, considering the actual nature of the loop, a D5 is more than sufficient for a more than sufficient flow rate. I.e., above 1 gpm. You might want to check out Martin's flow rate calculator for confirmation as to flow rates for various pumps. Also, take a look at the Thermochill curves to see where the flow-rate/performance curve flattens.

One thing though, the D5 has a (native) 1/2" inlet at the pump head. This means you should use 1/2" tubing between the res and pump. 7/16" would be alright also, but you shouldn't go with a lesser diameter. If you've decided to use a smaller diameter tubing for appearance sake, you should either go with a single piece of larger tube from res to pump or consider using a pump with a smaller native diameter at the inlet, such as the MCP 350 or 355.

As I understand it, the performance differences between the top-line water blocks designed for quad-cooling amount to a couple of degrees C at most. For a loop with adequate flow, an adequate radiator, and adequate fans, this is not sufficient to make any difference in ultimate clock-speed -- even at benching stress levels. In your shoes I'd think about a number of blocks -- including the new Danger Den MC-TDX, the XP, the Enzotech, and the Swiftech Apogee GTX, etc., as well as the D-Tek and EK. They're all great blocks that will let you push your CPU beyond electron-migration levels.

My dos centavos,
BDL

[Nate P.]

My MCP-355 with Petra's top hasn't failed yet. A MCP-355 with a petra's top is actually a bit better than a stock D5.

[silverphoenix]

My MCP-355 with Petra's top hasn't failed yet. A MCP-355 with a petra's top is actually a bit better than a stock D5.

yep same here!! I got a bit paranoid and I believe it has to do with overheating of the pump, it gets hottest on it's bottom and you need to elevate it and have at least some airflow. The D5 is already elevated and a larger mass probably contributing to it's ability to deal with it far better.

[71 (Bryan)]

thx for the replies guys, yeah, the tubes are going to be 3/8 (if i say why you guys would probably laugh at me =), but yeah, i think im gonna go with the mcp355 with a petra top ,
this is not about the ultimate oc but a daily workhorse and gaming rig.

[Xilikon]

3/8" tubing is fine. Look at my log and you will see I also use 3/8" tubing as well, best compromise between ease of routing and good performance.

[Nate P.]

thx for the replies guys, yeah, the tubes are going to be 3/8 (if i say why you guys would probably laugh at me =), but yeah, i think im gonna go with the mcp355 with a petra top ,
this is not about the ultimate oc but a daily workhorse and gaming rig.
Sounds good!

[boar_d_laze]

I'm sure you'll be happy with the MCP-355. It's a good choice for almost any system, and at this particular State of the Art, my favorite.

For a few years 1/2" tubing was all the rage for speculative "performance" reasons. Now though, there's been some empirical testing -- including martin's study on this forum -- that shows there's not enough performance difference to make a difference between 1/2" and 3/8" tubing. Even 1/4" is capable of good performance with the right pump.

Personally, I prefer 3/8" ID x 1/2" OD Tygon 3603 as the best compromise between performance and appearance. Looks great with Koolance compression fittings.

Speaking of which -- and returning to an earlier theme -- don't discount the importance of appearance, and how hard it is to swap out the stock fittings, when you choose your block. The last time I changed the nozzles on a FuZion I thought I was bend the wrench. But they don't call me "Gorilla Hands" for nothing.

Me? I really like the looks of the new Danger Den, the Enzotech Sapphire, and the Apogee GTX copper top.

[IanY]

If your tubing is really 3/8" ID, buy a MCP355 and stick to the stock pump with 3/8" ID barbs standard. Don't buy an aftermarket top. I have never had a pump die before (MCP355 or MCP655) and I've had a bunch of them. However, I would opine that the aftermarket tops push the MCP355 pump hard and contribute to its failure. Having said that, I use MCP355 with aftermarket tops back-to-back (and also D5s/MCP655s) and have had no problems. Petra is a standup guy and will be there to back you up if there is a problem with his product.

[NaeKuh]

Iany... swiftech wont accept RMA if you changed the top. :T

Also, trust me on my source about the dying DDC-3.2

Stick with a D5 unless you really need the small foot print on the DDC. And if you do, double them up incase of emergencys.


Another thing... how many of you guys have an EK Supreme? So i dont understand how you can be recomending them if you dont have one, or havent played with one.

EK Supreme, you need to double up on the pumps unless its a small loop. You need the headpressure the 18W DDC-2's gave at least. Thats what i feel. You need that massive head pressure.

Anyhow martin will test the block next week hopefully, and mess around wtih accelerators. He said it would be fun to do that. :rofl: man martin is awesome.

Oh and im sending him dual DDC-3.2 /w alphacool dual DDC top. SORRY I HAD TO GET ONE!! it looks too bling. :T


BTW i own 2 EK Supremes. Both with derlin tops tho. :down: wish one of them was acrylic.... oh wait i got something better then EK.. MARTIN! :D

[IanY]

I would double up on the pumps anyway. Pumps are often shoved aside as a priority in favor of better radiators and then forgotten.

[NaeKuh]

oh incase you guys want a visual on why i say you need massive head pressure...

Here one more time :
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/IMG_0842.jpg

See how that seal forces water to only go down those channels? And theres not a lot of head room on that steel plate -> fin area.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/IMG_0845.jpg

and Lastly the injectors:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/IMG_0848.jpg

It just works better with more flow by design.

[smee]

Thanks for the pics NaeKuh!

How do you like the supreme so far?

[NaeKuh]

Thanks for the pics NaeKuh!

How do you like the supreme so far?

Its very good... Top'd my GTX by around 4-5C with good pressure.

[Movieman]

yeah, i was think about getting that one instead of the ddcpx
EDIT: or a mcp355 with a petra top

Get the 655..Yes, more money but every damned day you'll be glad you did..
No,I don't work for Swiftech..:ROTF:

[Movieman]

Get the 655..Yes, more money but every damned day you'll be glad you did..
No,I don't work for Swiftech..:ROTF:

Handles my 8core clover at 3000 without a whimper since last August.
SO dependable I have the machine out of site and I was a paranoid nutcase on this. Get the 655..;)

[IanY]

Get two 655s. Envision the flow.

[IanY]

No,I don't work for Swiftech..:ROTF:

Awww come on.. I heard Gabe has secret agents plying these forums :rofl:

[serialk11r]

Pressure does not affect temps.
Beefy pump is not very much better than small pump in 90% of loops (if you're "normal" for an XS person, then you would disagree but you can save money if you listen to me :D)

[Waterlogged]

Sharka computers has the Fuzion in stock and P-PC's and FCPU have the Fluid XP+ knock offs for ~$80 in stock.

[71 (Bryan)]

im sticking with the mcp355 because this is going to be a cpu only loop,
even if i decide to a a gpu block in the future, ill add another loop
and appearance is kinda of importance

EDIT: how bout the fuzion w/ quad nozzles vs the EK?

[clokker]

thx for the replies guys, yeah, the tubes are going to be 3/8 (if i say why you guys would probably laugh at me =), but yeah, i think im gonna go with the mcp355 with a petra top ,
this is not about the ultimate oc but a daily workhorse and gaming rig.
That being the case you might consider the ApogeeDrive. (http://www.crazypc.com/products/apogee-drive-9304.html)
Makes for a very simple, clean install and seems to work fine on my Opty dual core.

[71 (Bryan)]

uglyness =S

[taowulf]

Awww come on.. I heard Gabe has secret agents plying these forums :rofl:


Using secret mind control no doubt...probably why I just bought two swiftech rads...

[boar_d_laze]

IanY: Actually the aftermarket tops put less stress on the pump head and motor -- especially if the water comes into the head through the (top) hole directly inline with the inlet. This has to do with the relative depths of the stock and OEM tops, and of the angles the flow must negotiate to make it into the actual inlet. At least you identified the source for your opinion as personal (anecdotal), limited experience.

NaeKuh: No offense but, "trust me" doesn't convey nearly enough information to satisfy my curiosity. You've been saying the same thing about the 355/3.2 for awhile. Even if your source was someone from Laing, what's the current situation? And what does it mean in a way which makes sense -- that is, what are the numbers? "More reliable" covers too wide a range to be of much help. Among other things, I'd like to know: Was there a bad batch? Have improvements been made? What are the relative MTBF between the MCP-355 a k a DDC 3.2 (with OEM top) and the 655? What are the return rates? If there were a lot of failures at one time, has the situation improved since? When? By how much?

Inquiring minds...
BDL

ON EDIT: This all sounds more confrontational than I meant it to be. I'm really interested in the information, and not at all interested in being insulting or provoking bad feelings. If it comes off that way, it's just poor word choice.

PS A couple of notes: First, the 355 with or without an aftermarket top is more expensive than the 655. Second, despite the higher published flow rate for the 655 vis a vis the 355, the 355 yields a higher flow rate in a loop with even a very small level of restriction because the 355 operates with a far higher head pressure. As already written, you can check it out your own bad self with MartinM's flow calculator.

[Xilikon]

IanY: Actually the aftermarket tops put less stress on the pump head and motor -- especially if the water comes into the head through the (top) hole directly inline with the inlet. This has to do with the relative depths of the stock and OEM tops, and of the angles the flow must negotiate to make it into the actual inlet. At least you identified the source for your opinion as personal (anecdotal), limited experience.

NaeKuh: No offense but, "trust me" doesn't convey nearly enough information to satisfy my curiosity. You've been saying the same thing about the 355/3.2 for awhile. Even if your source was someone from Laing, what's the current situation? And what does it mean in a way which makes sense -- that is, what are the numbers? "More reliable" covers too wide a range to be of much help. Among other things, I'd like to know: Was there a bad batch? Have improvements been made? What are the relative MTBF between the MCP-355 a k a DDC 3.2 (with OEM top) and the 655? What are the return rates? If there were a lot of failures at one time, has the situation improved since? When? By how much?

Inquiring minds...
BDL

ON EDIT: This all sounds more confrontational than I meant it to be. I'm really interested in the information, and not at all interested in being insulting or provoking bad feelings. If it comes off that way, it's just poor word choice.

PS A couple of notes: First, the 355 with or without an aftermarket top is more expensive than the 655. Second, despite the higher published flow rate for the 655 vis a vis the 355, the 355 yields a higher flow rate in a loop with even a very small level of restriction because the 355 operates with a far higher head pressure. As already written, you can check it out your own bad self with MartinM's flow calculator.

I already gave a few questions under those lines to NaeKuh to be forwarded to the source of the claims. Honestly, while it's disturbing, it's only a side of the medal and we need to look at the other side before making a judgement.

[IanY]

IanY: Actually the aftermarket tops put less stress on the pump head and motor -- especially if the water comes into the head through the (top) hole directly inline with the inlet. This has to do with the relative depths of the stock and OEM tops, and of the angles the flow must negotiate to make it into the actual inlet. At least you identified the source for your opinion as personal (anecdotal), limited experience.

NaeKuh: No offense but, "trust me" doesn't convey nearly enough information to satisfy my curiosity. You've been saying the same thing about the 355/3.2 for awhile. Even if your source was someone from Laing, what's the current situation? And what does it mean in a way which makes sense -- that is, what are the numbers? "More reliable" covers too wide a range to be of much help. Among other things, I'd like to know: Was there a bad batch? Have improvements been made? What are the relative MTBF between the MCP-355 a k a DDC 3.2 (with OEM top) and the 655? What are the return rates? If there were a lot of failures at one time, has the situation improved since? When? By how much?

Inquiring minds...
BDL

ON EDIT: This all sounds more confrontational than I meant it to be. I'm really interested in the information, and not at all interested in being insulting or provoking bad feelings. If it comes off that way, it's just poor word choice.

PS A couple of notes: First, the 355 with or without an aftermarket top is more expensive than the 655. Second, despite the higher published flow rate for the 655 vis a vis the 355, the 355 yields a higher flow rate in a loop with even a very small level of restriction because the 355 operates with a far higher head pressure. As already written, you can check it out your own bad self with MartinM's flow calculator.


After nine DDC-2s and two DDC3.2s, and another eight D5s, I would categorize my experience as a little more than being limited. I like DDCs in certain applications and D5s in other applications.

If you do believe that an aftermarket top eases the workload on the pump, then I would invite you to convince both Swiftech and Danger Den, in addition to Laing itself. Naturally, those companies would not accept RMAs from pumps with tops that have been switched out because they wouldn't want consumers toyinga round with their products. As for me, I bought most of my DDC-2s from Alphacool, so I suppose the company would have to take back a bad pump. As I mentioned, I have had no issues at all, after using Laing pumps for quite a considerable amount of time.

As for Naekuh, he has no hidden agenda and he is not on some ridiculous Jihad against DDCs. He and I have hung around this forum long enough to have heard enough stories, whether valid or not. Pumps could have failed because of some factor or another. Doesn't matter. We're sick and tired of hearing about them.

And those of you with D5s, don't get all smug right now. D5s fail as well. Hell, there was one case of an Iwaki failing. Its just the nature of all things mechanical and electrical.

[Sparky]

And those of you with D5s, don't get all smug right now. D5s fail as well. Hell, there was one case of an Iwaki failing. Its just the nature of all things mechanical and electrical.

:eek: NO WAI!!!11!oneone!

:p:

[NaeKuh]

And those of you with D5s, don't get all smug right now. D5s fail as well. Hell, there was one case of an Iwaki failing. Its just the nature of all things mechanical and electrical.

RAWR... iany you smug'd that one because of me. Wait til you get one. :yepp:


Anyhow its up to you to believe me or not. I am not going to tell my source out. The source asked me to stay quiet on the open forums in regards to his name. But he didnt mind me letting people know what he's going though because of these pumps.

And im not saying they ALL Die. As i said he says somewhere around 10-20%. Thats 1/5 or 2/10 or could be 20/100 ect...

The fact that remains tho that worries me. Lets assume your advising a Newbie parts for a great h2o system. Yes DDC's are great, however if that poor pump ever was to die on that newbie, Do you think a newbie has enough experience to test why the pump died? also drain the system and pull the pump. Get an RMA on the pump?

Usually to a newbie after the first failed attempt, 75% quit at there loses and never go back. mmmmm... want to avoid that all together. Hence why im only recomending D5's until i test out all 4 of my DDC-3.2, put them though some stress, and see if any of them die.

[boar_d_laze]

I respect your experience, your builds and your opinions generally. But in this case I'm left with questions and doubts.

IanY: As vast as your experience is with a variety of pumps compared to an OP, it's still anecdotal. And with the third generation 18 watt pump it's actually paltry. Two 3.2s, indeed! It certainly doesn't supply enough data for a statistical analysis, nor enough to answer a variety of other important questions such as when (in the production run) the pumps were purchased, whether they were from a single batch, etc. Furthermore, I don't find the unwillingness of the manufacturers and some retailers to RMA "modded" equipment leads to the same inference you do.

As to OEM pump heads, I'm not talking about what I believe or don't believe. My beliefs are unimportant. However design purpose is of some meaning. One can get a rough idea about the decrease in stress to the pump and motor by the increase in flow and head pressure when the pump head is switched out, resulting from the simpler, more efficient water path supplied by the better OEM tops. The major stressor of the stock pump is the sharp right-angle turn in the path from head entry to pump inlet. Pumps of the this type don't function well when they have to "suck" water into the inlet. Instead, they work much better with continuous zero or positive pressure there. and that's what the good tops permit. It's not me dude, it just is.

NaeKuh: The questions I posed are still unanswered. No matter how reliable your source is, I still don't have enough information to make reasonable inferences. What I do infer is that you have no good basis to compare MTBF for pumps from current production runs with stock and OEM heads. I'm guessing your source is associated with a company which does not deal with modified pumps.

It would be very nice if someone with actual, usable knowledge could jump in here with some real numbers. Petra, for instance.

FWIW, my experience with the 3d generation 18 watt pump is limited to 3 builds -- all with the MCP-355, and all with Alphacool heads. Two belong to my children, the other to a client (from my wholly technology unrelated business). All are running strong, 24/7, and NP so far. The pumps were purchased from Swiftech. The heads from Performance PCs. One build was completed in mid-November, the other two in early December. Me? I use a laptop.

BDL