Advise on new WC rig please [Archive]

Pisklink

01-14-2008, 11:43 AM

Hi all XS forum members,

First of all, I'm new to the XS forum and wanted to thank Maxxxracer for getting me registered and activated (he knows what a hassle it was for me to get this fixed). In the meantime I was able to read some threads and stickies and was amazed of the tremendous amount of information that can be found on the XS forum. I think members here can provide me with the answers I'm looking for.

I'm planning to buy a new rig somewhere by the end of February or March. Till then I'm waiting for new hardware to arrive in my country (Netherlands) from Intel and Nvidia. As far as I know the new Penryn chips will be largely available by the time I want to buy my machine as well as the Nvidia 780i chipset. I came up with the following setup and would to hear your comments and advise on rig and WC hardware seperately and combined. I want to spend around the 2000 euro (WC components included).

Computer hardware
- Corsair 750Watt PSU CMPSU-750TXEU
- Coolermaster CM 690 No PSU
- 1 NEC DVD+R/-R/RW AD-7200S S-ATA Zwart
- 2 x Kingston HyperX 2x1024MB DDR2 1066 KHX8500D2K2/2GN
- 2 x Western Digital 500GB S-ATA2 WD5000KS
- 2 x VGA Asus EN8800GT/G/HTDP 512MB PCI-E (depending on mobo)

CPU
I'm still not sure which CPU to buy with regard to overclocking and gaming in the near future, Dual Core or Quad Core and which one. I'm thinking of the following hardware options:

- Intel E8400 3.00GHz 1333 6MB or Intel E8500 3.16GHz 1333
- Intel Q6600 (2,4/1066/2x4MB) or Intel Q9300 2.50GHz FSB1333

When providing arguments to choose a CPU could you possibly give me the best stepping for overclocking that CPU?

Mobo
I only know of XFX having a mobo with 780i chipset. Does someone else have suggestions for a 780i mobo or a different one?

Watercooling hardware
I'm going to buy my stuff at a dutch webshop (see link in signature). I think it can provide me with some brand components. I already found two forum members who used the CM 690 case and implemented the components neatly. Despite that, I figured out the following setup please advise on the components:

CPU block
- Aqua-Computer cuplex XT DI - Socket 478 / 775 or D-Tek FuZion

Pump
- Aqua-Computer Aquastream XT 12V pomp - standard
- Innovatek HPPS i High Power 12V pomp
- Laing DDC-1RT or Laing DDC-1Plus

Radiator
- Black Ice GT Xtreme 240
- ThermoChill PA120.2 + ThermoChill Shroud for PA120.2

Reservoir
- Aqua-Computer Aquabox 5,25"
- Swiftech MCRES-MICRO
- Thermaltake Aquabay M6

Flowmeter
- Innovatek Flow-O-Matic

Coolant
- Tec-Protect-Plus
- Only demi water

I'm thinking of a one loop setup and in the beginning only cooling the CPU. However, maybe in the future I want to add GPU and chipset cooling in that single loop (will the rad I selected be sufficient?). Besides this I have some technical questions but first I want to make sure which hardare to use.

Thanks in advance for your help and I really appreciate you took the effort to read my questions and thereby helping me out!!!!

WoZZeR999

01-14-2008, 12:25 PM

Looks like you got a nice setup. As far as the CPU, I'm trying to decide between the e8500 or q9450. The nice thing about the E8500 is the extra multiplier.

One thing you didn't mention is if you plan to overclock or not. If you do plan a medium to heavy OC, you may want to look into a PA120.3. The MC-Micro res works great. I would skip the flow meter unless you feel you absolutely need it. They tend to add more restriction, and unless you are sitting there looking at it they are kinda of useless.

For your WCing gear, I own a fuzion with nozzle kit and love it, don't know about XT-DI. I believe the first 2 pumps are the same thing, just re-branded, and the Laing DDC1 will not be strong enough if you plan to add a GPU or NB block to the loop later. The Thermochill radiator is a great radiator from what I've heard (I have only used my MCR320). The MC-Microres is great. Flow meters in my mind are not worth having in a loop, unless you are paranoid and want to always make sure that it's flowing, in which case a pump like the D5 has an RPM monitor built into the pump. For coolant, I would just use normal distilled water with some biocide. You can go to a pet store and get algae stuff from the fish section.

Pisklink

01-15-2008, 04:23 AM

Thanks for your reply since every advise is more then welcome. I hope others will give their point of view as well.

Looks like you got a nice setup. As far as the CPU, I'm trying to decide between the e8500 or q9450. The nice thing about the E8500 is the extra multiplier.

Well, IMO the Q9450 is still to expensive in my country (around 350 - 400 euros). But if I should have make a decision between E8500 and Q9300, what would you suggest regarding dual core and quad core with future gaming in mind?

And is it possible that somebody could give advise in what stepping to use for good OC'ing?

One thing you didn't mention is if you plan to overclock or not. If you do plan a medium to heavy OC, you may want to look into a PA120.3.

I'm thinking of getting the max. overclock out of my system. That's why I was already thinking of the PA120.3 myself. Only I'm not sure whether this fit in my CM690 case or not. I should take a look at my predecessors on this forum who already pioneered with this. Could you tell if the Thermochill radiators are high noise or low noise and if they exist of round tubes or flat tubes?

The MC-Micro res works great. I would skip the flow meter unless you feel you absolutely need it. They tend to add more restriction, and unless you are sitting there looking at it they are kinda of useless.

I think I will go for the MC-Micro res. I agree with your argument about the restrictiveness of the flowmeter. But how can I determine if there is flow in the system?

For your WCing gear, I own a fuzion with nozzle kit and love it, don't know about XT-DI.

I think the fuzion I want to order does not have the nozzle kit included. I should ask the webshop if it has. Which kit would you suggest?

I believe the first 2 pumps are the same thing, just re-branded, and the Laing DDC1 will not be strong enough if you plan to add a GPU or NB block to the loop later. ....a pump like the D5 has an RPM monitor built into the pump.

Selecting the correct pump is really a big issue and difficult to me. What my webshop told me is that all three pumps are excellent pumps. They said that the Laing DCC1 pumps are the same as the equivalent Swiftech pumps. Why do so many members of this board use the Swiftech pumps when it would not be strong enough? And what is your opinion on both other pumps? If I'm correct you would suggest the Aquastream XT or the Innovatek HPPS. I'm only affraid that the Aquastream XT is to complex because it has many options (Tachosignal, RPM monitor, etc.) while the Innovatek maybe has no parameters at all?

septim

01-15-2008, 05:29 AM

PA rads are meant to be low noise, together with medium yates or others, choose from fan review by vapor in the stickies...

for me, i'd go quad core, as i believe future games would be able to make use of quad cores, better also for multi-tasking people...
but it always depends on your answer to what you'd want to do with your upcoming pc... work or play...
current favorite cpu is the Q6600, GO revision/stepping (not B3 stepping = hotter)

dtek fuzion cpu block with nozzles (dont forget to include in order) is current best and favored...
and next favorite is the bowed swiftec apogee gtx (get replacement copper top)
there is also Danger Den mc Tdx and that AC Double Impact, which both require further testing and comparison (currently being done by some XS members with their own time and funding)

res, there is also EK multioption res, bay type res, or DIY res like those by cyberdruid...
i have both micro res and ek res, the ek for looks, micro res for space saving...

pumps, the current best are swiftec mcp655 = d5 pump because they're reliable although bigger footprint/body and

mcp355 = ddc* (current 3.1 or stronger 3.2) and you have to buy seperate top so you could make use of 1/2 barbs and for more effeciency from said pump...
this pump together with aftermarket top (alphacool for versatile mounting options, petra's or EK's for smaller space requirements) would offer you better pressure and flow

or you could use AC pumps like the iwaki RD30, or some alphacool AC pump, forgot which model...

for shop that ships internationally, try Petra's Tech Shop, give Quoc an email and patiently wait for a reply, he can usually sort out your needs and shipping properly...

Xilikon

01-15-2008, 05:40 AM

1- For the cpu, it depends how long do you want to keep it. If you wanted to keep it for a few years, a quad core is a given since more software will take advantage of it. As for choosing which one is good, it's a coin toss between a Q6600 and a Q9300 (Q9300 = 45nm, SSE4 and 8 Mb cache. Q6600 = 65nm which is older but reliable, no SSE4 and 12Mb of cache). The cache and SSE4 might be what help you pick which one.

2- For the pump, a lot use Swiftech since it's what is more easily available around here. Swiftech is just rebadged Laing DDC pumps and there are in no way weaker than the other versions. The DDC1 is the 9W version and I think the Plus version is the 18W and the one to get.

If you need a point of reference, the Swiftech MCP350 is the 9W version and the MCP355 is the 18W one.

3- The Fuzion cpu block doesn't include the nozzles kit so ask if they also sell them. Otherwise just try to order it from somewhere and ship it (it's just a few pennies).

4- For the flowmeter, toss the one you pick in the garbage can. Too restrictive... A better choice would be to order a Swissflow SF800 (it's a dutch manufacturer so it's basically local to you. 25 euros + shipping if you ask Dirk from Swissflow). I have a FAQ about the SF800 here on XS so if you need questions or help, ask there.

5- The Thermochill radiators is the low noise version due to lower fins count. You can put low-CFM fans and still perform as good as others with high-cfm (and high noise) fans. You can't be wrong with any TC radiator but for the max overclocking, the PA120.3 is the only choice. If you cannot mount it internally and doesn't mind the looks, just mount it on the top or rear of the case.

Pisklink

01-15-2008, 12:07 PM

CPU
Ofcourse I want to be able to use that comp. as long as possible but this doesn't mean I'm not willing to upgrade during the years. The only thing is, if I'm correct, that Intel will introduce a new architecture by the end of this year of beginning of 2009. If I want to upgrade right before the new architecture is standard it will probably not be compatible (performance wise) with the current mobo I will be using.

I like the E8500 because I guess speeds of 4 Ghz belong to the possibilities. On the other hand I like the Q9300 because of their lifespan and small die size combined with SSE4 instructions. Is their any experience by members on this board with OC'ing a Q9300 (temps., OC limit, and effect of smaller cache)?

Mobo
Does anyone has a mobo suggestion for me (Nvidia or Intel chipset)?

Pump
Swiftech is hard to get here and I like to order my products at a dutch store to make warrantee claims easy. I can get Laing pumps and are at least esthetically identical. My webshop retailer also told me they are the same. I assume these pumps are silent and reliable? Do you think the 18W version is strong enough for a loop with CPU, GPU and chipset? And like Septim said, is the standard version efficient enough and can it generate enought pressure?

Fuzion nozzle
Ok, I will ask my retailer if he can deliver a nozzle kit. Do you have a suggestion which nozzle kit to buy? Futhermore, if I understood the sticky correctly a nozzle kit provide more implingement I guess or not? Btw how is such CPU block assembled to the mobo, by bracket or not?

Flowmeter
I took a look at the SF800 and is indeed a dutch product. I read the "working principle" on their website but it's not clear to me how it reports back the signal. I'm not really a electrician so I'm not in favor of making connectors myself etc.

Radiator
Well, maybe you convinced me of buying a PA120.3!!!! :D I guess this is also a good or better cooling solution when using only a CPU loop? I'm concerned with esthetics and I'm glad some members here have implemented a top mounted rad in a CM690. I think Evil-98 did a very great job (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=171006)!!!! I also want to top mount the PA120 bu only use one line of fans. The only thing I'm not sure of is to use a push or pull setup combined with a shroud or maybe both and still be able to mount it on top of the case.

Hoses
I was thinking of using 3/8" hoses. Is this a good size in combination with a Liang pump, Fuzion and PA120.3?

NaeKuh

01-15-2008, 12:29 PM

Man... i dont want to post these pics. But since you have a 690 and your looking at h2oing it.

Heres my recomendation:

CPU: Get a D-Tek Fusion
Rad: Swiftech MCR320 or CoolingWorks 120x3 radaitor

The RAD is thinner then a PA series. Your not going to be able to fit a PA up there internally if your looking for a good stealth internal build.

Heres mine, i didnt want to link it, but my build got deleted for some reason and i cant find it anymore...

Open Side:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/IMG_0862.jpg

Front View:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/IMG_0863.jpg

Top Cut: You need to mount the fans externally. Its very difficult for them to be inside.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/IMG_0850.jpg

A DDC-3.2 or DDC-1Plus as you call it is manditory. A D5 will be too bulky.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/IMG_0856.jpg

Since the fan mounts are external you need to cut the top out like this:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/IMG_0852.jpg

The rear is going to buldge out tho. Theres no way to fix this unless you remesh it with new mesh.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/IMG_0854.jpg

Heh.. thats my brand new M45 Sports parked behind my dad's LS430. :P

hope these give you ideas.

taylormsj

01-15-2008, 12:48 PM

Here is my cm 690 for some more ideas on looping it up

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v374/taylormsj/waterloop.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v374/taylormsj/DSCF2997.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v374/taylormsj/Radzips.jpg

good luck

Waterlogged

01-15-2008, 09:42 PM

YugenM

01-15-2008, 09:58 PM

XT DI test here:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2702551&postcount=51

Pisklink

01-16-2008, 02:54 PM

Thank you all for your replies and pictures to generate further ideas. However, I still have some WC hardware questions.

Pump
I assume Liang Plus pumps are silent and reliable? Do you think the 18W version is strong enough for a loop with CPU, GPU and chipset? Additionally, like Septim said, is the standard version efficient enough and can it generate the necessary pressure? I will ask my retailer if I can get a Liang D5 pump. Would that be a better choice with regard to further upgrading the WC loop in the future?

Fuzion nozzle
Ok, I will ask my retailer if he can deliver a nozzle kit. Do you have a suggestion which nozzle kit to buy? Futhermore, if I understood the sticky correctly a nozzle kit provide more implingement I guess or not? Btw how is the Fuzion CPU block assembled to the mobo, by bracket or not?

Flowmeter
Is the SF800 flowmeter easy to connect without the need of being an electrician? How does it report back its signal?

Radiator
I guess the PA120.3 is also a good or better cooling solution when using only a CPU loop? Concerning the fans, are there any conclusive arguments for using a push or pull setup or maybe both?

Tubes
I was thinking of using 3/8" tubes. Is this a good size in combination with a Liang pump, Fuzion and PA120.3?

Xilikon

01-16-2008, 03:06 PM

1-A Laing DDC 18W with a aftermarket top will be stronger than a D5 but by a small margin.

2- The nozzle will improve the impingement and to pick which nozzle, it depend on pump and loop but the current consensus would be the 5.5mm nozzle for single or dual cores and quad nozzle for quad cores.

3- The SF800 is very easy to setup and the package include what you need to connect with 2 resistors (350 ohms and 2200 ohms). After this, you can just plug on the motherboard to get the output in RPM. To have a reading in LPM, just do the math where 6000 rpm = 1 LPM.

4- The PA120.3 is overkill for a cpu-only loop but if you plan to expand in the future or wanted to be ready for the hottest cpu in the future, then it's a great choice and a good investment. About fans, don't pull too much hair and just have 3 fans in either push or pull depending how you place the radiator (just make sure you bring fresh air and not the hot air from the case inside.

5- 3/8" tubing is fine as you are looking at less than 0.5C different between 3/8" and 1/2" tubing. I use 3/8" tubing myself and I'm very happy since it's reasy to bend them and route in the case.

Pisklink

01-16-2008, 03:42 PM

1-A Laing DDC 18W with a aftermarket top will be stronger than a D5 but by a small margin.

What kind of aftermarket top were you thinking of?

2- The nozzle will improve the impingement and to pick which nozzle, it depend on pump and loop but the current consensus would be the 5.5mm nozzle for single or dual cores and quad nozzle for quad cores.

Ok, I just mailed my retailer to ask him if he can deliver this nozzle kit.

3- The SF800 is very easy to setup and the package include what you need to connect with 2 resistors (350 ohms and 2200 ohms). After this, you can just plug on the motherboard to get the output in RPM. To have a reading in LPM, just do the math where 6000 rpm = 1 LPM.

So most high end mobo's will support this flowmeter? Can I read the output in the bios or is a third party program necessary?

4- The PA120.3 is overkill for a cpu-only loop but if you plan to expand in the future or wanted to be ready for the hottest cpu in the future, then it's a great choice and a good investment. About fans, don't pull too much hair and just have 3 fans in either push or pull depending how you place the radiator (just make sure you bring fresh air and not the hot air from the case inside.

I'm thinking of adding more components in the future like chipset and GPU. But since I'm completely new to WC'ing I want to do it step by step.

So when there is no real space between the case and the rad, like in Evil-98's rig (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=171006) a push setup directed into the case would be preferred? And subsequently let case fans get rid of the hot air inside the case?

Pisklink

01-17-2008, 04:00 AM

Does anyone has an answer to my questions above? Thank you.

Xilikon

01-17-2008, 05:39 AM

The tops I'm thinking is either Petra's or Alphacool.

The flowmeter will work with any fan header so any board can use. However, you need to work to get the output in the right format. If you can wait a bit, I will be doing tests as soon as I get the resistors on hand and I will have a guide how to setup this.

For your last question about the case and rad spacing, I can't answer so I'll let someone else answer or you may try contacting the owner of the same case as yours to check this.

Pisklink

01-17-2008, 07:00 AM

1 - I'm not aware of any shop where I van buy such an aftermarket top here in the Netherlands without shipping from a foreign country. Do you really think the standard Liang 18W pump will be to weak for cooling CPU, GPU and chipset?

2 - Alright I get it, I can read the rpm from the conventional fan header and have to translate it to l/min.

3 - I have asked this question in Evil's worklog thread.

4 - Do you have any idea of a good OC stepping for the E8500 and Q9300? With regard to the Q6600 I already know that the G0 revision is good for OC'ing.

Xilikon

01-17-2008, 07:11 AM

1- Without a top, it will still work but keep in mind the barbs of the original top is 3/8" so you either have to get adapters or use 3/8" ID tubing. It won't affect too much performance since even with the stock top, a DDC 18W is strong enough for most needs. You will just have to source the aftermarket top later if the need arise.

2- Yeah, that's very easy. Just keep the rule of thumb of 6000 pulses = 1 LPM.

3- good :)

4- You are asking about something not yet released to the masses. You will get a single stepping, which is the same as the QX9650 for sure since it's a new process. A new stepping is created when Intel tweak the manufacturing process and/or fix some erratas and this will not happen before a few months at least.

Pisklink

01-17-2008, 07:20 AM

1 - I don't understand why the original barbs would not be alright or need adapters. I assumed that 3/8" tubing best fits 3/8" barbs. Is this correct?

4 - Damn it, I could think of that myself ofcourse. :( If I want to know how the E8500 and Q9300 perform I will have look for reviews. I saw a member (don't his name anymore) overclocking a E8500 C0 stepping to 4,7Ghz. :shocked: That would be sweet ofcourse.

I just took a look at your worklog and rig. I have to admit that it looks damn sweet, nice job!!!! I really like it how you managed to keep the design of case into the extension part. There are some really creative people around here. I'm really looking forward to post pics of my rig by the end of march.

Xilikon

01-17-2008, 07:22 AM

For the barb, you are right that a 3/8" barb will fit 3/8" ID tubing like a glove.

Thank you about my worklog :) It's still a work in progress and the grills will be there shortly from ChilledPC for the final looks.

Pisklink

01-17-2008, 07:48 AM

I was just reading the "Guide to watercooling and leak testing" and started to wonder something. The CPU fan will be missing when using watercooling but how will the mosfets be cooled down? I know it is optional to WC the mosfets but would a heatpipe construction without a fan directed at them be sufficient? Do you think WC the mosfets gives better OC potential?

Xilikon

01-17-2008, 07:54 AM

Don't worry too much, mosfets can run up to 100-120C fine. Just make sure there is enough case airflow to move hot air off them.

Pisklink

01-18-2008, 04:41 AM

Do you think the WC'ing potential will be better when WC'ing the mosfets?

Btw in the "Guide to watercooling and leak testing" was also mentioned that using NB watercooling was not preferred because of restrictiveness. However, it seems very attractive and logical to watercool this chip because of the temps it can reach (my friend his Asus P5E32-SLI with 680i chipset can reach 100 degrees celsius on air). What's your opinion on this matter because I was thinking to use NB WC'ing in the future but with these contradictory arguments I'm doubting?

Xilikon

01-18-2008, 06:17 AM

Watercooling the northbridge would be useful in some cases :

-You overclock to 450 MHz and up. Having a higher bus speed will stress it more and make it overheat. For casual overclocking under that point, it's not really needed beside novelty factor.

-You wanted to get rid of any heat source so you can keep the case airflow to a strict minimum. In that case, it's worth watercooling the NB and that's what I will be doing myself. I will use the Enzotech ramsinks on the mosfets and just ensure there is some airflow in that area with a silent fan.

It also depends on what northbridge we are trying to cool. The 680i chipset can get very hot as your friend noticed but the P5K is much cooler. The X38 is slighty hotter than the P5K but not up to the same point as the 680i.

Pisklink

01-18-2008, 07:29 AM

I don't think I will get over the 450 Mhz busspeed. Consequently I will start with only CPU WC'ing and can add mosfet and chipset cooling later. Moreover most current medium to high end mobos, in general have pipe heatsinks attached to them. However it is ofcourse never a bad idea to put some internal fans on the RAM, NB, and case fans near the mosfets to give them some extra cooling.

I'm not sure yet which mobo to buy but it will be a X38 or 780i / 790i based mobo. I was hoping that by the end of february more nvidia based mobo's would be released to the public. This way I can use a SLI setup. If there aren't anough examples on the shelf by that time and I'm stuck to X38 I will change the initial 8800GT SLI to one 9xxx serie vidcard. Do you have suggestions for a mobo?

I will go skiing in third week of february and when I get back I will already order the CM690, PSU and my chosen WC components. This way I can already modify the case, clean up the rad and CPU block, make everything fit the case and ultimately leak test the system. So by the time I order / get the hardware components I'm all set and ready to go. I also have questions about the bleeding. How do you get all the air out of the loop? Is it smart to start bleeding when there are non-critical components in the rig yet? And how to handle when you want to safely refresh the water over a year or so when all components are in place?

Pisklink

01-18-2008, 12:13 PM

Ok, I also want to let you know my retailer is able to order the Laing D5 pump. It's only a bit expensive and must cost 110,- euros. I asked him if he knows if that pump has the variable speed option.

Xilikon

01-18-2008, 12:29 PM

With the D5, you should consider 7/16" or 1/2" tubing ;) This pump has 1/2" barbs only.

Pisklink

01-19-2008, 06:12 AM

Well, I think I will stick with the Liang DDC pump because it is cheaper and smaller. If you think it is strong enough then I see no need to buy the D5.

I have some questions left about bleeding the loop. How do you get all the air out of the loop? Is it smart to start bleeding when there are non-critical components in the rig yet? And how to handle when you want to safely refresh the water over a year or so when all components are in place?

Xilikon

01-19-2008, 07:01 AM

The DDC is very strong and with a aftermarket top, it beat a D5 anyway but not by a big margin.

However, don't stress about that since a well setup loop will have a flow above 1 GPM, which is already good. The sweet spot would be 1.5 GPM.

About bleeding, the smart thing would be to disconnect the motherboard fully (remove both the ATX connector and the AUX 12V connector) then jump the ATX connector (use a paperclip and connect both the green wire with any black wire). You can run the loop for testing without powering the motherboard then you can let it bleed and leak test at the same time. When you are satisfied of the result, reconnect the motherboard and start it normally.

Pisklink

01-19-2008, 10:33 AM

However, don't stress about that since a well setup loop will have a flow above 1 GPM, which is already good. The sweet spot would be 1.5 GPM.

With a well setup loop I suppose you mean, good components, short tubing and the order of components in the loop?!?

Xilikon

01-19-2008, 10:58 AM

Yes, which you already got :)

Pisklink

01-20-2008, 05:59 AM

Is the MC Res water sealed (don't know if it's the correct word)? So when bleeding and tilding the comp it will not start leaking?

Is this res enough for bleeding or is it necessary to use a T-line as well?

Someone here mentioned that for stopping bacterial growth in your loop I should use some stuff from the fishstore. How many should I put in the demiwater?

How is the CPU block connected to the mobo? By bracket or not?

Which fans should I use 120x25 or 120x38 and at what rpm? And how do I connect at least three fans to my mobo?

Xilikon

01-20-2008, 10:23 AM

Actually, demineralised = distilled. What you are thinking is deionized water, which is a big no no ;)

Waterlogged

01-20-2008, 11:38 AM

Actually, demineralised = distilled. What you are thinking is deionized water, which is a big no no ;)

Are we certain about that? There just seems to be too many ways to treat water, that it starts to get confusing and ppl just start throwing around the words as if they're interchangeable while the processes themselves could be very different and have different results.

Pisklink

01-20-2008, 11:40 AM

Xilikon, would you pls give advise on my questions in my previous post? Thanks in advance.

I think I will dedicate my new comp. to you mate since your very helpfull to me.

Xilikon

01-20-2008, 12:43 PM

Waterlogged, on the demineralized water bottle, it is written it has been threated by reverse osmosis and the minerals is all 0. It even say it's equivalent to distilled water.

Deionized water still have organics impurities so that's why I suggested to avoid them.

Pisklink, to answer your question, the MCRES is sealed when you screw the top cap fully and you don't need a T-line since the reservoir will also help with bleeding. Mine has no T-line.

To avoid organics growth, just get a algicide containing copper sulfate (or you can buy a bottle of PT Nuke) and put 1-2 drops.

For the CPU block, there is a mounting plate with 4 screws which get thru the motherboard holes. Look at the pictures here and you will see how. Lots of users also get a backplate to avoid bending the motherboard.

Finally, for the fans, it depends on a lot of things so I suggest you look at the fans roundup by Vapor pinned here and do a search here since there is a lot of threads asking which fans to put. For connecting them to the motherboard, you need 3 headers but if you want to group 3 into 1 header, I suggest you avoid plugging on the motherboard since you can burn off the header due to the excessive load. Connect it directly to the molex and you can look at my worklog (in sig) for how I did.

Waterlogged

01-20-2008, 12:59 PM

Xilikon

01-20-2008, 02:59 PM

Hmm, my understanding was that demin could still have bio nasties in it, whereas they are removed during the distilling process due to the heat to steam to water. :shrug:

Good question indeed... I'll try to find a phone number of the local manufacturer who made the water I'm using and see how they do. Around here, it's almost impossible to find distilled water but I forgot to check some local laboratory supplies since there is a lot of laboratories in our city.

EDIT : I walked my fingers in the yellow pages and I found 4 stores selling distilled water (2 to make wines so I dunno if it is indeed distilled water). I'll check tomorrow.

Pisklink

01-20-2008, 03:26 PM

Thanks again for answering my questions. I think you have to order the backplate seperately or is it included?

Concerning the demiwater, as far as I know it is also used to fill up your carbattery. Because of the condition of this battery the fluid has to be clean. Therefore I thought demiwater is the purest form of water. Though I'm not sure if it is allowed to compare carbatteries with cooling fluid.

Xilikon

01-20-2008, 03:29 PM

Pisklink, there is still a unfinished debate about which water is best between demineralized, deionized and distilled water. The best bet currently is to get distilled.

For the backplate, you need to get it separately but you can get the one from Thermalright.

Pisklink

01-22-2008, 12:26 PM

I'm thinking of already ordering my WC'ing hardware and buying my case. This allows me to already assemble all components and start leak testing before buying my comp. hardware (CPU, GPU, etc.). Fortunately my retailer offered me to exchange the rad when it won't fit my case.

Ok, I think I'm going to order the following stuff:

- D-Tek FuZion + D-Tek Nozzle Kit + Backplate
- Laing DDC-1Plus
- ThermoChill PA120.3 + ThermoChill Shroud voor PA120.3
- Swiftech MCRES-MICRO
- 3 x Yate Loon D12SL-12 - 120 x 120 x 25 mm
- Tygon tube 8 mm. (8x1,6)
- Demiwater + biocide

What do you think? Any comments or remarks?

Xilikon

01-22-2008, 12:28 PM

:up:

I strongly suggest you keep the radiator and if you order a Silverstone TJ-07, you won't have fitting issues. Is that the case you picked ?

Pisklink

01-23-2008, 03:29 PM

With keep the radiotor you mean the Thermochill PA120.3?

I want to use a Coolermaster CM690 as a case and I'm not sure it will fit.

Xilikon

01-23-2008, 03:32 PM

Yes, keep the radiator.

With a CM690, it's indeed a bit hard but search for CM690 worklogs and you will see some ways to mount.

Pisklink

01-24-2008, 02:59 AM

I think I will stay with the PA120.3 rad not only because of its cooling potential but also because I have the possibility to exchange it when it won't fit.

I searched dutch webshops for the Silverstone TJ-07 but it's a hard to get case overhere. I found one shop who sells it together with a hard to pay price of 309,- euros. That is really a ridiculous price which I'm not willing to pay for. Moreover, its a big tower which ofcourse has the advantage of being large but with the disavantage of being immobile. We (me and my friends) have homelike LAN-parties on a regular basis.

Do you have other suggestions for a bigtower which give the opportunity to mount a top rad and are in a price range between 50 - 100 dollar or euros?

Pisklink

01-25-2008, 11:55 AM

Sorry for bump. But does anybody has suggestions for a not too expensive high tower (around 50 - 100 dollar).

Pisklink

01-26-2008, 05:32 AM

Alright, I thought all things over again and I think I will start practicing on my old system. I will buy a case, PSU and WC hardware and use my old comp. gear to setup a WC system. This way I have plently of time left to wait for new hardware to be released while in the mean time my new case is prepared for WC'ing a new system. It's a real big advantage that WC'ing stuff is sustainable and can exchanged to new hardware.

Maybe I will start a worklog as well to give other people ideas.

Pisklink

01-28-2008, 10:48 AM

Ok, I bought the CM690 over the weekend together with the Zalman 850W PSU. Today I measured the dimensions of the case and this causes some problems with regard to component selection.

The PA120.3 will be very critical to mount on top. Not only the dimensions are critical but I also have to offer the eSATA and USB connectors. Therefore, I'm thinking of buying the PA120.2 but this raises two questions.

1) Which hardware is the PA120.2 capable of cooling (e.g. CPU, GPU, mosfets, etc.)?

2) Would the Black Ice GT Xtreme 360 be a good alternative and what fans to use best with the Black Ice rad?

Yooper

01-28-2008, 11:02 AM

I have a very similar setup to what you are looking at putting together. I would recommend the ProMount for the DTek Fuzion. I would also recommend running two loops if you are planning on cooling the GTs.

Also, I have the 780i and love it. Much better for overclocking the Q6600 and also capable of SLI, which I wanted.

Pisklink

01-28-2008, 02:31 PM

@ Yooper

Are you only running one loop for your CPU or are you also cooling the GT's in a second loop? I'm just curious cuz maybe I'm waiting for the 790i as well as the GeForce 9XXX series to be released in a few months.

And what do you mean with ProMount for D-Tek Fuzion?

Pisklink

01-29-2008, 12:48 PM

Yesterday I asked my retailer to make a price for the following WC'ing hardware but did I chose the right fans:

CPU Block:
- D-Tek FuZion
- D-Tek Nozzle Kit
- Backplate for CPU block (socket S939)

Pump + reservoir:
- Laing D5
- Swiftech MCRES-MICRO

Radiator:
- ThermoChill PA120.2 + ThermoChill Shroud voor PA120.2

Fans:
- 3 x Yate Loon D12SL-12 - 120 x 120 x 25 mm
- 2 x Sharkoon Silent Eagle 2000 - 80 x 80 x 25 mm (for mosfets or would you suggest larger ones)

Assecoires:
- Tygon slang - 2 meter

Pisklink

01-30-2008, 10:20 AM

I have a question about the barbs and tubing. Is it possible to use 1/2" barbs for all WC components as described in the previous post? Or are some components technically bound to smaller barbs?

And what Tygon tubing should be used with 1/2" barbs?

Xilikon

01-30-2008, 10:24 AM

lior307

01-30-2008, 01:34 PM

Great stuff your'e doing guys, keep up the good work
you gave me a few ideas

Pisklink

01-30-2008, 02:53 PM

Yes, you can and I believe most is sold with 1/2" barbs by default. As for Tygon tubing, you have a choice of R-3603 (popular), B-44-3 (less clouding but less crystal clear initial) or R-3400 (black).

Thanks for the detailed info but I was actually aiming at the size of the tubes. Would 3/8" be alright or should it be larger? And how well would those tubes fit 1/2" barbs, any tube clamps necessary?

Xilikon

01-30-2008, 02:56 PM

As you have a D5 pump, you have no choice to go either 7/16" (rare) or 1/2" tubing anyway. A good one would have 1/8" wall thickness but with a Fuzion, it's a tight fit with worm clamps.

Pisklink

01-31-2008, 03:52 AM

So, for my own understanding. I should get 1/2" barbs for all components (Fuzion, res, rad, etc.) and get 1/2" tubing in combination with worm clamps?

Xilikon

01-31-2008, 05:52 AM

Exactly :)

Pisklink

01-31-2008, 09:19 AM

Mmmmm, I asked my retailer if it was possible to use 1/2" barbs on all components. According to him this was not possible because the D-Tek Fuzion orginally has 1/4" thread, the Thermochill has 3/8" thread and the Laing 1/2". He says its technically not possible because not all components use the same screw threads. In addition, he says, that the tubesize of all barbs is the same and that the Tygon tube he's selling has a 8 x 1,5 size (inner 8mm / outer 11mm).

Is the above true and will all things fit well when I would order the above described combination of barbs and tubes while using worm clamps? Or do you think there will become to many restrictions in the loop?

Xilikon

01-31-2008, 09:28 AM

He is correct. I wasn't talking about the threading end size since each component will come with the right barbs. However, 8mm is a bit small indeed so insist to get 1/2" Tygon, which should be available.

If he is giving you some headache, look at a different retailer ;)

Pisklink

01-31-2008, 10:13 AM

I'm not used to talk in inches so the whole inch-thingy is kinda confusing to me. :D

Isn't it true that 1/2" tubing would be to large for 3/8" barbs and way to large for 1/4" barbs to fit decently? Of are those worm clamps to compensate this difference?

Xilikon

01-31-2008, 10:22 AM

Let me repeat. A barb has 2 ends, one where you screw on the block/pump/radiator and one where you put the tubing. It doesn't matter what screwing end size is as long as the tubing end stay the same.

You can have a 3/8" BSPP 1/2" tube barb and a 1/4" BSPP 1/2" tube barb. You can't use either one on everything so you use the first for the Thermochill radiator and the second for the rest of the loop. The pump has no removable barbs, only 1/2" molded fittings. If you use a 1/2" barb with 8mm tubing, it's a very very hard fit because 8mm is too small. You are looking at 10mm tubing at least if you are accustomed to metric standards.

Pisklink

01-31-2008, 12:58 PM

K, now that is what I call a clear explanation!!!! :clap: :D Thank you very much. I think I got confused because both ends of the barbs can have different sizes which made me mix up stuff. I will ask my retailer if he has such a setup available.

Yooper

01-31-2008, 01:10 PM

The D-Tek Pro Mount can be found here http://www.petrastechshop.com/dfuprha.html

It made the block installation much easier and it looks great too!

I see someone above mentioned that it is rare to use 7/16 tubing with the D5. I can understand why as it was a biotch to install that tubing on my D5.

Pisklink

02-01-2008, 04:30 AM

@ All
Yesterday I was scrolling over the forums and came across Eller's worklog and saw some interesting things. He disassembled the Fuzion to put a nozzle in place and therefore removed the sealing. I saw this seal was pretty damaged after removing and can't be used again in my opinion. I was wondering what to use instead when closing the Fuzion?

Additionally, he used a dremel to cut a hole in the steelplate (where the mobo is mounted) to use a backplate. Did he do this because the backplate won't fit between the mobo and steel? Or is this because switching CPU backplate will be easier in the future (without removing the complete mobo)?

Karl_Eller Worklog: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=169198

@ Yooper
The D-Tek Pro Mount looks sweet but I want to watercool my old hardware first as a experiment. So now I'm planning to order a S939 backplate but will consider the Pro Mount when switching to Intel in a few months.

Waterlogged

02-01-2008, 10:54 AM

@ All
Yesterday I was scrolling over the forums and came across Eller's worklog and saw some interesting things. He disassembled the Fuzion to put a nozzle in place and therefore removed the sealing. I saw this seal was pretty damaged after removing and can't be used again in my opinion. I was wondering what to use instead when closing the Fuzion?

Additionally, he used a dremel to cut a hole in the steelplate (where the mobo is mounted) to use a backplate. Did he do this because the backplate won't fit between the mobo and steel? Or is this because switching CPU backplate will be easier in the future (without removing the complete mobo)?

Karl_Eller Worklog: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=169198

About the cutouts, Karl clearly states:

Finished cutting out the holes in the motherboard tray for a little bit of cable routing, plus getting to the CPU backplate + NB/SB mounting holes.

About the seals, they look like that because they use another chemical to hold them in place when they are assembled @ D-Tec. Just clean the rough looking stuff off and your good to go, the seals are perfectly fine to re-use.

Pisklink

02-06-2008, 11:34 AM

Alright I just mail back from my retailer and I thinking to order the following components. I was just wondering if someone could take a look that I'm not buying these components too expensive.

The set would look as follows:
1x D-Tek FuZion
1x D-Tek Nozzle Kit
1x Thermalright K8 - bolt-thru kit
1x Laing D5
1x Swiftech MCRES-MICRO
1x ThermoChill PA120.2
1x ThermoChill Shroud for PA120.2
3x Yate Loon D12SL-12 - 120 x 120 x 25 mm
2x Sharkoon Silent Eagle 2000 - 80 x 80 x 25 mm
2x Tygon tube ID 13 / OD 19,1 mm. - 1 meter
4x Threading 1/4" - 13 mm.
2x Adapter from 1/2" to 1/4"
2x Threading 1/2" - 13 mm.
8x Worm clamps - 12 / 20 mm. (steel)

This would cost me 392,- euros. Is that way to much or is it acceptable?

Xilikon

02-06-2008, 11:44 AM

1 meter isn't enough. take at least 3 meters to be sure to cover the whole loop. A average loop take 2-3 meters of tubing.

Beside this, it's all great :)

Snyxxx

02-06-2008, 04:58 PM

As you have a D5 pump, you have no choice to go either 7/16" (rare) or 1/2" tubing anyway. A good one would have 1/8" wall thickness but with a Fuzion, it's a tight fit with worm clamps.

Wrong. I have used 3/8" ID 5/8"OD on the large D5 nozzles many times. Just need to place the end of the tubing in hot water and force on. No hose clamps required for any 3/8" ID hose on 1/2" barbs.

Xilikon

02-06-2008, 05:00 PM

Wrong. I have used 3/8" ID 5/8"OD on the large D5 nozzles many times. Just need to place the end of the tubing in hot water and force on. No hose clamps required for any 3/8" ID hose on 1/2" barbs.

With some elbow grease, that's true. However, do you think that a newcomer should try that ? ;)

Snyxxx

02-06-2008, 06:03 PM

With some elbow grease, that's true. However, do you think that a newcomer should try that ? ;)

I did on my first build, a wavemaster:D

PS - Looking at your new wavemaster build brought back good memories. Keep up the good work. Mod turned out great. I like your attention to detail.

Pisklink

02-07-2008, 03:02 AM

With some elbow grease, that's true. However, do you think that a newcomer should try that ? ;)

Thanks for all the confidence in my first WC build. :D ;) My first try will not be that distinctive and great than some of the rigs here on XS. But that is mainly because I will use my old hardware first. When I'm going to buy some new hardware I will probably paint the inside of the case and mount some led's.

Pisklink

02-07-2008, 11:47 AM

I just read a thread of someone else who's gonna make his first WC build. In this thread they were talking about tubing coils.

Do you think the tubing I choose will be flexible enough to bend? Is it necessary to use tube coils with a wall thickness of 3 mm to prevent kinking?

Pisklink

02-11-2008, 11:10 AM

Meatpuppet

02-11-2008, 12:43 PM

This will be my last question before I will order my new WC hardware.

I have the following options between tubing and don't know which one to choose?

Tygon 7/16” ID and 10/16” OD (although using worm clamps it fits better on barbs but small wall thickness) or Tygon 1/2” ID met 3/4” OD (thicker walls).

I am a big fan of the 7/16" ID, 5/8" OD tubing - either tygon or masterkleer if you want to save some cash. BTW, the 7/16" isn't what I would refer to small or thin walled as that is usually reserved for 1/16" walled tubing. The essential difference is that the 7/16" and 1/2" tubings have virtually identical bend radius characteristics which is what the wall thickness is all about.

As for the coils, I think the only difference between the different coils is color so knock yourself out.

p.s. Six feet of tubing is cutting is cutting it close. I always reccomend ordering extra tubing.

Xilikon

02-11-2008, 01:01 PM

A good amount of tubing would be 3 meters or 10 feets for most setups. The 7/16" tubing is a bit more easier to work with than the bigger one.

Pisklink

02-11-2008, 03:14 PM

Alrighty then, tomorrow I will order all hardware and include the 7/16" ID 10/16" OD tubing.

Thank you all in assisting and giving me advise about which hardware to get. Especially Xilikon who supported me this whole thread!!!! Thx dude. After I get my stuff (approx. 2 weeks) I will give an update about how things are going.

Pisklink

02-12-2008, 10:22 AM

What D-Tek nozzle should you advise to use with my AMD sinlge core CPU?

Pisklink

02-28-2008, 11:03 AM

Could someone pls respond to the folowing question because today I received my WC hardware and I want to assemble everything this weekend.

What D-Tek nozzle should I use with my AMD sinlge core CPU (see sig)?

Xilikon

02-28-2008, 11:06 AM

Start with the 5.5mm nozzle, it should work great for this CPU.

Pisklink

02-29-2008, 09:11 AM

Thx for your fast reply (again :D)!!!! I just bought some demi water for the system and went to a petshop to find some biocide for preventing algae growth. I had a choice between 3 types of anti-algae stuff (1 powder and 2 fluids). I just didn't know which one to choose. I would prefer a fluid ofcourse but one of the fluids was colored brown and the other one exists of two components. The attendent also told me that there was almost no algae growth to expect when the WC system would be in a dark place.

Please some advice on what anti-algae stuff to use and if it is necessary to use?

Pisklink

03-01-2008, 10:40 AM

Today me and my friend started to modify my case to top mount the PA120.2 rad. I think we did a pretty good job at modifying the case and mounting. But ofcourse I'm still interested in your advise and judgement about our piece of work.

http://members.home.nl/hvandeplas/Clan/Computer%20Pics/IMAG0007.jpg

http://members.home.nl/hvandeplas/Clan/Computer%20Pics/IMAG0008.jpg

http://members.home.nl/hvandeplas/Clan/Computer%20Pics/IMAG0013.jpg

http://members.home.nl/hvandeplas/Clan/Computer%20Pics/IMAG0010.jpg

http://members.home.nl/hvandeplas/Clan/Computer%20Pics/IMAG0011.jpg

http://members.home.nl/hvandeplas/Clan/Computer%20Pics/IMAG0012.jpg