AMD falls back on K8 architecture for 2008

[terrace215]

These parts will be.... uncompetitive. The article:

http://www.dailytech.com/AMD+Resurrects+K8+Architecture+for+2008+Roadmap/article9899.htm

AMD plans to keep "Brisbane" around, releases new chips based on it

Things at AMD may have gone from bad to worse with the lackluster Phenom launch in late November. Not only did Phenom fail to appeal to professional reviewers, but the company ended up removing one third of its CPU lineup just after the big day.

[...]

Essentially, AMD will move any remaining Athlon 64 processors from the 90nm node to the 65nm node, with a few new frequency and TDP variations.

The AMD Athlon 64 X2 5600+ will be the first to jump on the new 65nm K8 bandwagon with a 65W TDP. The previous Windsor-based chip of the same featured an 89-Watt TDP. AMD will also add 100 MHz to the core frequency of the Athlon 64 X2 5600+, now rated at 2.9 GHz. Total L2 cache will be halved in the move to the Brisbane core, and the updated Athlon 64 X2 5600+ chips will feature only 1MB of L2 cache. Availability of these processors is scheduled for Q1 2008.

AMD's higher-end Athlon 64 X2 6400+ and Athlon 64 X2 6000+ will both be discontinued.

AMD will also update its "Energy Efficient" series and will release three new chips, the AMD Athlon 4850e, Athlon 4450e, and Athlon 4050e in Q2 2008. All of the new offerings will be based on AMD's Brisbane core and will feature a 45-Watt thermal envelope. AMD's current energy efficient "BE-2xxx" series will be phased out at that time. Respectively, the new chips will run at 2.5GHz, 2.3GHz and 2.1GHz.

All new Brisbane chips will be based on the Socket AM2 interface. These processors are compatible with AMD's AM2+ socket designated for Phenom processors.

[alucasa]

Personally, I think, if they are really going to do this, follow Intel's path and make a 4-core chips with you know "fake" quad core design.
But I guess they won't do that, eh.

[Spawne32]

AMD essentially has nothing good to offer at this point, very disappointing.

[freeloader]

Personally, I think, if they are really going to do this, follow Intel's path and make a 4-core chips with you know "fake" quad core design.
But I guess they won't do that, eh.

I'd buy one or two strictly for distributed computing. :D

[Sparky]

AMD essentially has nothing good to offer at this point, very disappointing.

Yeah they do, for those with less money than the rest of you. Hard to beat a good dual core + mobo for around $100 or so. And for most people even a dual core is a bit overkill.

[savantu]

They don't have time , unless Intel gives them.

Intel , the 2000 pound gorilla , has a foot on their throat and can decide at will how much pressure to apply.Given the rabid , vicious attacks and slander AMD has given Intel in the past 2 years ( including the trial , constant mockery of Intel and their accomplishments ) Intel will probably obliterate the green team and they have every right to do so.

AMD needed K10 in 2006 to fight Core , 45nm K10 in 2007 to fight Penryn and a K11 ( new core ) to fight Nehalem in 2008.Yet , they are basically down to using the 2005-level K8 to fight in 2008.

[savantu]

Yeah they do, for those with less money than the rest of you. Hard to beat a good dual core + mobo for around $100 or so. And for most people even a dual core is a bit overkill.

Intel will soon launch dual core Celerons based on Core at $54 and less.

[Sparky]

Intel will soon launch dual core Celerons based on Core at $54 and less.

Oh so now we get crappy celerons x2 :lol:

Intel's architecture needs the L2 cache, and the definite lack of the L2 in the celerons impact their performance by quite a bit. Celerons suck.

BTW, what did AMD slander intel about?

[Syn.]

wait no, really! omg. bf!

AMD is getting ready to ramp B3 in the mean time in needs to sell something to make profits. If they cant make K10 offcourse they will make K8, logical isnt it?

Anyway this DailyTech article is subjective as it lables this release as a new thing that wasnt suppose to happend, maybe they where going to release these chips anyway but because there is no Phenom to overshadow this value marked release its getting more attention.

Seriously stop with the this kind of negative crap.

[turtletrax]

Seriously stop with the this kind of negative crap.

Honestly what is there to be positive about?? I have an Skt 939 4400+X2 in my HTPC and it is feeling pretty old and slow. Ready to change it out and all I have to choose from is Intel. I would gladly throw an AMD chip in there, but why would I put a AM2 chip in there if it gains me nothing and I have to buy a new Mobo??

Intel it is, I will not give pity cash to AMD. It just doesnt work that way...

[savantu]

Oh so now we get crappy celerons x2 :lol:

Intel's architecture needs the L2 cache, and the definite lack of the L2 in the celerons impact their performance by quite a bit. Celerons suck.

BTW, what did AMD slander intel about?

Who cares ? For their price they are exactly what Intel needs to fight AMD in the low end.

As for slander you should check from time to time what Hector and Co spit towards Intel.

Read here : http://virtualization.sys-con.com/read/411804.htm

[trans am]

goddamn amd stock is at 9.45 as of this post

[BeardyMan]

AMD essentially has nothing good to offer at this point, very disappointing.

For an overclocker that shouldn't matter at all, i enjoy pushing every single cpu i can get :D

[Syn.]

Honestly what is there to be positive about?? I have an Skt 939 4400+X2 in my HTPC and it is feeling pretty old and slow. Ready to change it out and all I have to choose from is Intel. I would gladly throw an AMD chip in there, but why would I put a AM2 chip in there if it gains me nothing and I have to buy a new Mobo??

Intel it is, I will not give pity cash to AMD. It just doesnt work that way...

I am stuck here with a Skt 939 x2 4800+ on my main machine, its the slowest part of my PC. If you look at my sig i too want to upgrade but there is no way in hell i am going Intel. Its not because i love AMD or something, but rather because i just hate Intel and dont want to give them a penny. AMD is the only other option besides Intel atm.

Sure there arent many things to be positive about but us shouting at each other about it wont help AMD make K10 any faster now will it?

[Sparky]

Who cares ? For their price they are exactly what Intel needs to fight AMD in the low end.

As for slander you should check from time to time what Hector and Co spit towards Intel.

Read here : http://virtualization.sys-con.com/read/411804.htm

Yup, celeron sure is low-end... Rather have something that performs closer to mid-range for the same price thank you.

That article sounds very one-sided and not very professional at all... I've seen the stuff, seen HP's side of things, etc.

[vitaminc]

Intel will soon launch dual core Celerons based on Core at $54 and less.

Motherboards for Intel's platform are still more expensive tho.

[duploxxx]

AMD essentially has nothing good to offer at this point, very disappointing.

right maybe not for you ... calculate price /performance of the 790+2x3870+5600-6000 proc or 5000BE

that's enough a high gamer would ever need @ super price

only the same board @ intel with same specs will kost you 100$ more


These parts will be.... uncompetitive.

why uncompetitive? what else do you need for the budget markt.... then what about the budget intel cpu's with there decreased cache, that's the same.

[rogueagent6]

They don't have time , unless Intel gives them.

Intel , the 2000 pound gorilla , has a foot on their throat and can decide at will how much pressure to apply.Given the rabid , vicious attacks and slander AMD has given Intel in the past 2 years ( including the trial , constant mockery of Intel and their accomplishments ) Intel will probably obliterate the green team and they have every right to do so.

AMD needed K10 in 2006 to fight Core , 45nm K10 in 2007 to fight Penryn and a K11 ( new core ) to fight Nehalem in 2008.Yet , they are basically down to using the 2005-level K8 to fight in 2008.

How exactly did Core trump K8? Super PI? Take off the kneepads and stop crying. :rolleyes:

Ohh and obliterate AMD because they have the right? What exactly did you put in your pipe this morning, because you are so far off in left field that it's silly. :rofl: :ROTF:

[Jacky]

How exactly did Core trump K8?
I think you both mean Core 2? If yes then lol@ "how did Core 2 trump k8" :D otherwise just ignore my comment..

ontopic:
yeah it's nothing unexpected, because we all know that dualcore k10 will show up in late Q2/Q3 and until then they need something to fight Intel.

And no *tri-cores* won't suffice because the dualcore market is HUGE.
Yes, ANY k8 will get completely obliterated and destroyed by Yorkfield in 2008. However they'll be still viable for some low-end purchases.

Discontinuing the higher end dual cores? Maybe they are going the VIA route or the tri-cores will just replace the high-end dual cores for the time being.

Anway they try to stick to super cheap 65nm K8s even if they'll have to sell them for under 150$ (even @3ghz) or much lower, because they got the yields sorted out!

[uOpt]

How about these people give me a bunch of faster socket 939 processors?

I'd bite.

[Scubar]

This is really saddeninig, AMD have really turned to crap since the purchase of ATI. Theyre CPUs have absolutely no appeal now when you can pick up the lowest Core2Duo and overclock it to beat the best AMD have to offer. I was hoping Phenom was going to atleast compete or beat current Kentsfields :(

[Morais]

I would like to see IBM entering in desktop CPU area and AMD focused in the GPU, whitch they are getting good at.

[rogueagent6]

I think you both mean Core 2? If yes then lol@ "how did Core 2 trump k8" :D otherwise just ignore my comment..

No, I meant Core, he said:


AMD needed K10 in 2006 to fight Core

Core 2 wasn't officially released until July of 2006, up until that point it was only Core.

[NapalmV5]

all these new K8s Q2 2008 ? wow

2007 crap
2008 crap
2009 is there a light at the end of the crap tunnel ?

[TL1000S]

Oh so now we get crappy celerons x2 :lol:

Intel's architecture needs the L2 cache, and the definite lack of the L2 in the celerons impact their performance by quite a bit. Celerons suck.

BTW, what did AMD slander intel about?

It may seem it's time to update your knowledge :)

Newer "Celerons" are based on Core 2 architecture, and with new versions not limitied to single core they will be nice alternatives for cheap budget rigs.

[realsmasher]

I don't see the point...

There is a good k8 with good Performance/Price at every speed or price segment.

Where do you need better ?

gaming -> x2 5000+ will do every game with max details just fine for low $$$

video/image-Stuff -> there is a cheap phenom 4x that does this quite well

office/htpc/etc -> x2 3800+ with low tdp for nearly no money


I don't see intel much ahead unless you take overclocking or 2000$ rigs into account.

Now that's maybe HERE interesting, but not for 99% of the other pc users.


AMDs Situation is made up of only 2 reasons :
- the very cheap prices
- Overclockers or rich people who tell AMD is crap because it's fastest/overclocked CPU can't compete with Intels best and the whole world believes it.


I know SO many people who bought intel, even if there was a AMD cpu/system that would match much better for them.

Count myself into that case.

[Sparky]

It may seem it's time to update your knowledge :)

Newer "Celerons" are based on Core 2 architecture, and with new versions not limitied to single core they will be nice alternatives for cheap budget rigs.

I am aware of that. However they still have very low L2, and Core 2 is still highly dependent on L2. Drop the L2 to celeron levels, the performance is dropping too.

[John600rr]

I don't see the point...


Where do you need better ?


This is not normalsystems.org or goodenoughsystems.org.

[RPGWiZaRD]

I don't see the point...

There is a good k8 with good Performance/Price at every speed or price segment.

Where do you need better ?

gaming -> x2 5000+ will do every game with max details just fine for low $$$

video/image-Stuff -> there is a cheap phenom 4x that does this quite well

office/htpc/etc -> x2 3800+ with low tdp for nearly no money


I don't see intel much ahead unless you take overclocking or 2000$ rigs into account.

Now that's maybe HERE interesting, but not for 99% of the other pc users.


AMDs Situation is made up of only 2 reasons :
- the very cheap prices
- Overclockers or rich people who tell AMD is crap because it's fastest/overclocked CPU can't compete with Intels best and the whole world believes it.


I know SO many people who bought intel, even if there was a AMD cpu/system that would match much better for them.

Count myself into that case.

At the same time have you ever thought this way...

Do you think AMD really enjoying pricing all desktop CPUs sub $200? They're only doing it cuz they have no choise, Intel's architecture is so much better at the moment, you can't make direct price/performance comparisions unless you're only interested in a view based on customers. I mean what does that help when the company is bleeding and stock is sub 10?

Wake up.

Bulldozer is probably AMD's last hope if they want to grow again.

[mAJORD]

the topic title is spin.

AMD were always going to be selling K8 based stuff well into 08

[terrace215]

the topic title is spin.

AMD were always going to be selling K8 based stuff well into 08

According to DT, they've added a bunch of K8 SKUs. If Phenom were working as hoped, they would not need to launch more uncompetitive Brisbane SKUs.

[awdrifter]

This is not that bad of a news. The K10 cpus simply can't clock that high right now, and making Brisbanes are cheap, so it makes sense for them to do this. It'll be interesting to see if they can squeeze anymore out of the 90nm (Windsor) chips though, maybe a X2 6600 BE (3.4ghz) or something.

[frankR]

This would be like Intel last year falling back on Netburst after failing to launch Core 2. K8 is the new Netburst.

AMD is headed for a dollar per share. They aren't competative. It's not like they have anything over Nvidia either, if anything it's quite the oposite.

[AbelJemka]

According to DT, they've added a bunch of K8 SKUs. If Phenom were working as hoped, they would not need to launch more uncompetitive Brisbane SKUs.
If K8 is so uncompetitive how's in the world they still manage to sell them?
K8 inferior to Core 2 that not saying they can't compete : they compete on price.

[Den Leiw]

Now if they brought back 939 with 65nm and 45nm I'd be in heaven ... :rolleyes:




... Anyway I agree with mAJORD
Should they simply stop selling K8 parts? They are making more money off it than K10. Nothing wrong with that.
They just need some kind of backup until they can get K10 to be rock solid... sadly...

[RPGWiZaRD]

Price price and price, every1 talks about price...

Intel can also lower prices but it doesn't seem to be any need atm. They're on 65nm as well and soon to be 45nm process last time I checked to make matters worse.

[frankR]

Price price and price, every1 talks about price...

Intel can also lower prices, they're on 65nm as well and soon to be 45nm process last time I checked to make matters worse.

Intel is already on 45 nm.

They'll be at 32 nm before AMD hits 45 nm.

[terrace215]

If K8 is so uncompetitive how's in the world they still manage to sell them?
K8 inferior to Core 2 that not saying they can't compete : they compete on price.

Yes, and that's why they are headed for bankruptcy. AMD's current business model cannot survive on a low-end-only output from their expensive fab.

[BrowncoatGR]

I thgink this is clearly a planned manufacturing transition. AMD no longer has a 90nm FAB so they had to move all chips over to 65nm. Since no DC K10s are planned before at least Q2 this was obviously going to happen one way or another. Presenting this as AMD falling back to K8 is ridiculous and misleading

[awdrifter]

This would be like Intel last year falling back on Netburst after failing to launch Core 2. K8 is the new Netburst.

AMD is headed for a dollar per share. They aren't competative. It's not like they have anything over Nvidia either, if anything it's quite the oposite.

No, K10 is AMD's Netburst, this would be like if Intel fall back on P3 instead of pushing Netburst.

[Shintai]

goddamn amd stock is at 9.45 as of this post

And 8.91 as of this...

[shiznit93]

I thought AMD couldnt slap 2 dies on a package cause of the IMC?

[xlink]

the topic title is spin.

AMD were always going to be selling K7 based stuff well into 08
FIXED... k8= k7 + IMC

[savantu]

No, I meant Core, he said:



Core 2 wasn't officially released until July of 2006, up until that point it was only Core.

Core is the name for the Core 2 Duo uarch ; do your homework before jumping on others.

[Haltech]

Yes, and that's why they are headed for bankruptcy. AMD's current business model cannot survive on a low-end-only output from their expensive fab.

Did you forget about the K6 days where AMD operated in the RED for years? C'mon, they wont be going bankrupt and only an idiot would want them too.


ive already been buying their stock at the low end.. They will come back soon enough and ill make my money like i did in 1999.

[CraptacularOne]

How exactly did Core trump K8? Super PI? Take off the kneepads and stop crying. :rolleyes:

Ohh and obliterate AMD because they have the right? What exactly did you put in your pipe this morning, because you are so far off in left field that it's silly. :rofl: :ROTF:

I believe you are misunderstanding what he meant. He is saying that AMD needed K10 (not had) and he is saying that they are behind. In his post.

[Dimitriman]

I thought AMD couldnt slap 2 dies on a package cause of the IMC?

I think this is one of those cases where they would rather die than bite their own heavily marketed word. :rolleyes:

[adamsleath]

This is not normalsystems.org or goodenoughsystems.org.
no; it's intel.org

[Morais]

no; it's intel.org

:rofl:

[zornundo]

How about these people give me a bunch of faster socket 939 processors?

I'd bite.

Hell :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing yeah! Gimme a 6400+ S939!!!

[Shaggy]

Why does everyone say ATI was a bad purchase? It was a brilliant purchase. It's probably what will keep AMD alive the next few years.

Take a lesson in marketing.

Wii

Xbox 360

People in best buy who pick the pretty red card


ATI is a total winner.

[awdrifter]

Hell :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing yeah! Gimme a 6400+ S939!!!

Hell yea, I'd pick up a 6400 for my s939 rig if they make one.

[mAJORD]

FIXED... k8= k7 + IMC

:confused:

Perhaps I should have just said 'K8 stuff'. I'm sure everyone else knew what I meant though.

Terrace, they added a bunch of lower end stuff, but pretty sure 5600+ was always on the maps, I'll try and find them.

The only thing that's changed is the dropping of X2 Phenom. and looking back, I'm not sure what they were thinking having them in the roadmaps to start with..

[rogueagent6]

Core is the name for the Core 2 Duo uarch ; do your homework before jumping on others.

But they still weren't released until July of 2006, stop twisting the facts to support your off-base vision of history.

[Zytek_Fan]

*UT3 male announcer voice* Epic fail.

AMD needs to move forward not continue with an old architecture. K8 can only do them so much good in the value sector, and the new cheap cheap Penryns are probably going to undercut AMD's Brisbane cores.

[MrWizard6600]

Personally, I think, if they are really going to do this, follow Intel's path and make a 4-core chips with you know "fake" quad core design.
But I guess they won't do that, eh.

this late in the game the plan is pretty well etched in stone.

far too late to make a call like that.

Spin the bejesus out of Phenom and hope for a fix to the L3 problem and 3.0GHz. Phenom clock for clock looks to be pretty compeditive with Kentsfield.

[awdrifter]

Yea, it's way to late for them to make a fake quad-core now. They have to just fix the K10 and go from there.

[Shintai]

Why does everyone say ATI was a bad purchase? It was a brilliant purchase. It's probably what will keep AMD alive the next few years.

Take a lesson in marketing.

Wii

Xbox 360

People in best buy who pick the pretty red card


ATI is a total winner.

Take a lesson in business and look on the revenues and profit the former ATI is doing. Very very tiny revenue and no profit. Its like saying GM would save the american economy and debt.

[adamsleath]

yeah just think that if amd shuts up shop then intel will get another 15%+ in revenues (or wotever)...and more when they jack up their prices, so it's in intel's best interest for amd to quit.

there should only be uber expensive hardware for the upper middle class, made by intel of course.

but maybe intel have learned how much money they can make by selling cheaper stuff aswell.
so to sum up AMD is EOL...so that means all you amd dudes have to buy into intel now.

i just thought someone had to speak up for poor intel as they have so few fans around here :rolleyes::yawn2: :/



Yea, it's way to late for them to make a fake quad-core now. They have to just fix the K10 and go from there.
you can only market what you have to offer....but it would be good to see a "fixed" phenom x4.
wave the magic wand and improve yields.

would i notice any difference with an am2 x2 oced 5000+ black platform vs wot i have now?

and i suppose on topic question might be what is a good mobo for 5000+ black?

http://www.motherboardpro.com/DFI-LanParty-UT-790FX-M2R-Socket-AM2-Motherboard-Crossfire-AMD-790FX-SB600-Chipset-ATX-p-404.html
3-way crossfire.

[safan80]

AMD essentially has nothing good to offer at this point, very disappointing.

but not surprising.


Why does everyone say ATI was a bad purchase? It was a brilliant purchase. It's probably what will keep AMD alive the next few years.


because AMD can't compete with intel, nor so with Nvidia (the G80 remained king for a year).

[NickS]

How exactly did Core trump K8? Super PI? Take off the kneepads and stop crying. :rolleyes:

Ohh and obliterate AMD because they have the right? What exactly did you put in your pipe this morning, because you are so far off in left field that it's silly. :rofl: :ROTF:

You, (or completely lost/misinformed). Period. People argued Super Pi when Core 2 Duo was released LAST YEAR. Find a new argument, because that one isn't working anymore. Core 2 Duo trounces K8 AND K10 in everything and there is nothing that proves otherwise. I've owned 2x the AMD chips I have Intel chips, I'm not an Intel fanboy by any means.

edited for flaming - runmc

[Sparky]

NickS I expected better of you than a personal insult :shakes:

[rogueagent6]

You, are an idiot (or completely lost/misinformed). Period. People argued Super Pi when Core 2 Duo was released LAST YEAR. Find a new argument, because that one isn't working anymore. Core 2 Duo trounces K8 AND K10 in everything and there is nothing that proves otherwise. I've owned 2x the AMD chips I have Intel chips, I'm not an Intel fanboy by any means.

Idiot? Why not go reread what I was replying to, then reread what I wrote, then come back and post. :rolleyes:

[NickS]

NickS I expected better of you than a personal insult :shakes:

Sorry, but this Intel vs. AMD thing really sets me off (as well as others apparently, as many of these threads get locked). I usually stay out of them but I happened to come across RogueAgent's post and I had to post. :(


Idiot? Why not go reread what I was replying to, then reread what I wrote, then come back and post. :rolleyes:

I was replying to that post only. I don't need to go back and re-read a bunch of posts to find out why you said it. :rolleyes: You said it, and thats all. I see you did edit your original post too...

[rogueagent6]

I was replying to that post only. I don't need to go back and re-read a bunch of posts to find out why you said it. :rolleyes: You said it, and thats all. I see you did edit your original post too...

Well guess what, you're the one who has the bold blue title. Isn't that supposed to mean that you are above name calling? Well you failed. :rolleyes:

[NickS]

Well guess what, you're the one who has the bold blue title. Isn't that supposed to mean that you are above name calling? Well you failed. :rolleyes:

No, it doesn't. :D If you have any more comments feel free to PM me, this threads getting mad OT.

[hollo]

Why does everyone say ATI was a bad purchase?

AMD bought ATI for just over 4 billion, then added about another half billion of integration costs during 2007.
It's probably what will keep AMD alive the next few years.closer to "buying ATI will nearly kill them in the next few years"

but if AMD pulls it off it could work out well in the longer term

[RAMMAN]

How exactly did Core trump K8? Super PI?

now that you mention it, core did hold the 3dmark world records except they were taken down until after the release of core 2 :fact:

[JumpingJack]

You know -- Dailytech's title of "Resurrects K8" is a bit wierd to say the least, K8 was never put to rest. AMD never did announce an EOL date for this core and the move to all 65 nm has a strategic possibility ranging from benign to total disaster.

- They could simply be needing extra output as they ramp Fab 30 down for conversion.

- They could be utilizing this as a cost control measure to shore up the cash flow and help improve margins and the balance sheet (likely or not, this would be wise).

- Or, prehaps, they do not have confidence in a timely delivery of Kuma (dual core K10) and decide they cannot let their dual core line dry up -- a plan B scenario.

Who knows, but personally, it will be a sad day when K8 is finally retired.... this is bar none AMD's best effort in their history... it should not be belittled.

I was on a vacation a while ago in Honolulu HI where I went to see the USS Missouri, as it is currently harbored in Pearl Harbor. Fitting really, as it was Pearl Harbor where the Pacific campaign started and where the ship that witnessed the signing of the surrender now finds it's final resting spot. I think of the K8 like the Missiouri -- a grand ship that will always have a place in history (sappy eh? :) )... I can say one thing, K8 enabled me to learn much more about CPU architecture than any other release as I constantly had to work to understand ...'how the heck did they do that' type thinking process.

Let's let people enjoy these CPUs a while longer, don't trash talk it ... the release of Core 2 Duo did not make them run slower....

Jack

[JumpingJack]

I am aware of that. However they still have very low L2, and Core 2 is still highly dependent on L2. Drop the L2 to celeron levels, the performance is dropping too.

They are likely to be targeted to a price point commensurate with their performance.

[Clairvoyant129]

Not surprising.

It should be competitive at the value segment but how long will it last? With Penryn over the horizon and Nehalem around the corner, will AMD keep relying on K8?

However, with Core 2 based celerons at the ultra budget segment and low end Core 2s at the value segment, will K8 even be competitive above $100 or even $50 in the near future?

[Zytek_Fan]

I'll vote for a Siemens or Samsung controlling stake buyout :cool: It's about the only thing that can do AMD any good anymore :(

[JumpingJack]

Not surprising.

It should be competitive at the value segment but how long will it last? With Penryn over the horizon and Nehalem around the corner, will AMD keep relying on K8?

However, with Core 2 based celerons at the ultra budget segment and low end Core 2s at the value segment, will K8 even be competitive above $100 or even $50 in the near future?

Yeah, I think so.... a 2.0 GHz 512 KB cache Core 2 duo will fall underneath a 3600+ type performance most likely. So AMD will still have some pricing leverage above that. It depends on how aggressively pushes up from there.

Intel will, however, position themselves wisely I suspect... a 512 KB Celeron dual core will need to be a very small die to be cost effective. They won't release it until they have depreciated enough of 65 nm to make it profitable I suspect.

[Epsilon84]

Oh so now we get crappy celerons x2 :lol:

Intel's architecture needs the L2 cache, and the definite lack of the L2 in the celerons impact their performance by quite a bit. Celerons suck.


Clock for clock even a 512KB L2 Celeron is faster than K8. A 3GHz Celeron 430 outperformed a 3.16GHz FX-57. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=148382

So, my question is, if that makes them 'crappy' or 'suck', what does that make K8? ;)

[Epsilon84]

Yeah, I think so.... a 2.0 GHz 512 KB cache Core 2 duo will fall underneath a 3600+ type performance most likely. So AMD will still have some pricing leverage above that. It depends on how aggressively pushes up from there.

Incorrect. Even with 512KB L2, a Core 2 Celeron has higher IPC than K8 (check my previous post for link). A 2GHz Celeron would be competitive with an X2 4000+ or 4200+.

Fortunately for AMD, initial Celerons will only be clocked at 1.6GHz, but I figure it's only clocked so low to not compete head to head with the E21x0 series, which are priced at $75 and up. A 2GHz Celeron would most likely beat a 1.6GHz E2140, and would be competitive with a 1.8GHz E2160. Intel would just be fighting a price war against itself. ;)

However, once Intel EOLs the lower clocked E21x0 chips (which would seem imminent since we are now up to the E2200 which is 2.2GHz) then AMD may find itself struggling to keep up in price/performance, unless they lower the X2 prices AGAIN... but how low can AMD really go?

[JumpingJack]

Incorrect. Even with 512KB L2, a Core 2 Celeron has higher IPC than K8 (check my previous post for link). A 2GHz Celeron would be competitive with an X2 4000+ or 4200+.

Fortunately for AMD, initial Celerons will only be clocked at 1.6GHz, but I figure it's only clocked so low to not compete head to head with the E21x0 series, which are priced at $75 and up.

I haven't seen the data so it is really a guess on my part. Cache impact, especially on the Intel platform, decreases as the size of cache goes up, and it goes by roughly a power law to the -Sqrt(2), i.e. the speed up going from 512 to 1 meg is much larger than going from 1 meg to 2 meg which is also greater than going from 2 meg to 4 meg.

What it will do is render single core Sempron/Celeron's obsolete.... this will put a nail in the coffin of most single cores.

Do you know of any Core 2 arch 512 KB data on the net? EDIT: Nevermind, I just now saw the link as it slowly registered in my head.

[The0men]

I seriously think that a debate about whether AMD is doing the right thing or wrong thing by doing this is a waste of time.

For a start it doesn't achieve anything. Then theres the fact that no one actually know's for certain it is just for a short time because it cost effective, or if its because theyre truely going bust. It's pointless to speculate. AMD will have they're own reasons.

Also as an Intel user atm (purely because the core 2 archetecture is simple and a dream to overclock) I don't understand all the mudslinging at AMD, nor the people using AMD's getting all defensive. Especially as if AMD do go bankrupt it is bad for ALL of us, with Intel having the monopoly of the market, prices will hit the roof. I truely hope AMD pull through this and get some wicked processors happening. We have seen what they can do with ATI, the HD3870 is an awsome card, scales far better than SLI in crossfire, and by all means is a great card. AMD are still in the race, they're just not winning at the moment. We have all seen how quickly the market can do a U-turn though.

[Epsilon84]

Do you know of any Core 2 arch 512 KB data on the net?

I just linked to it in my previous post. ;)

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=148382

[JumpingJack]

I just linked to it in my previous post. ;)

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=148382

Yeah, I noticed that after I hit click-send :) Thanks.... interesting.

If Intel gets agressive and goes into the low end in volume, this will put a world of hurt on AMD.

[mAJORD]

Also this

http://www.legionhardware.com/document.php?id=663&p=1

vs a Sempron, but a 512kb K8 wouldn't be much faster

Would be an exageration of the the 1Mb chips vs X2. bit faster than K8 clock/clock for avg things, notably faster for core 2-friendly non cache heavy apps (like encoding) but notably slower for things like gaming.

[Epsilon84]

Yeah, I noticed that after I hit click-send :) Thanks.... interesting.

If Intel gets agressive and goes into the low end in volume, this will put a world of hurt on AMD.

What is most impressive is that the Celeron beat a full blown FX based K8, which is 1MB L2 per core. Compared to Brisbane with 512KB of slower L2 and weird half multis underclocking RAM, the IPC deficit will grow even larger.

I know it sounds like I'm just rubbing salt into AMD's wounds here but reality is a biatch. Intel really could kill off AMD if they wanted to, but I'd imagine it wouldn't be in their best interests to do so.

[Spectrobozo]

I whould trade my low end brisbane esealy for one of these dual core celerons, probably will overclock like a champ and be faster and cooler than a brisbane even in the same clock, so you will run a 50 or 60 $ celeron faster than the most expensive k8 without problems... the things are pretty bad for amd, and getting worse and worse.

[realsmasher]

Do you think AMD really enjoying pricing all desktop CPUs sub $200? They're only doing it cuz they have no choise, Intel's architecture is so much better at the moment, you can't make direct price/performance comparisions unless you're only interested in a view based on customers. I mean what does that help when the company is bleeding and stock is sub 10?



In fact, i'm not interested in problems of companys, as they are not interested in my.

Now you could say : "IF amd goes bankrupt, THEN you will have to pay high prices"

But that wont happen in the next years and nobody knows what comes then.


The situation to buy a cpu/complete box was NEVER better then today, and that's what counts for me.

[Epsilon84]

Also this

http://www.legionhardware.com/document.php?id=663&p=1

vs a Sempron, but a 512kb K8 wouldn't be much faster

Would be an exageration of the the 1Mb chips vs X2. bit faster than K8 clock/clock for avg things, notably faster for core 2-friendly non cache heavy apps (like encoding) but notably slower for things like gaming.

Interesting, thanks for the link. It does appear gaming performance suffers the most with the reduction in L2. Even so, it's almost on par in gaming and significantly faster in the CPU benches.

[Brother Esau]

Not that I have anything good to say about this News at all but........the 790FX & 6400+ is but just a couple of seconds behind the Core 2 Duo @ 3250mhz in OGG encoding Music files where my AMD Opty 170 @ 2.7ghz was way behind in Music Encoding vs the C2D 6420 @3250MHZ so all though the Architecture is old it still whoops Ass:D

[Ubermann]

Who cares ? For their price they are exactly what Intel needs to fight AMD in the low end.

As for slander you should check from time to time what Hector and Co spit towards Intel.

Read here : http://virtualization.sys-con.com/read/411804.htm

AMD kinda sounds like the bad players in online games that constantly whining about hackers every time they get killed.

[Bl4ck^!]

this is only bad news for all of customers , AMD may survive 2008 with that moves but 2009 stands in question, i mean look at it this way , if Intel will be the only one on the market we would have a monopoly , if intel will be only one cpu manufacturer on the market the anti-monopoly agencies will push to divide Intel into smaller companies thus making it more screwed up for the customers but still profitable for Intel.

Wise choice for AMD would be to make some very cheap "Stickied" X2 + X2 Brisbane cores (they still have some good kick ) and start making some money, because the K10 is in my opinion is a major disaster in 2007.
I really like to see some competition between these two companies , without it we are doomed to high cpu prices.

[xlink]

lets not be TOO quick to judge k10.

I see it in one year from now being around 10% faster per clock and commonly scaling to 3GHz under air

will that be enough to topple penryn? Nope.
will it be enough to demolish nehalem? unlikely
would it make a good general use system? yes
would it make a good cruncher? definately
good server part? yep


AMD needs to focus on the high margin server market and get out something that PERFORMS. They can scale the architecture back to us afterwards. In the end, AMD needs to take what it has, make the very most efficient use out of it no matter what the PR penalty, and then they need to price it right.

[Bl4ck^!]

lets not be TOO quick to judge k10.

I see it in one year from now being around 10% faster per clock and commonly scaling to 3GHz under air

will that be enough to topple penryn? Nope.
will it be enough to demolish nehalem? unlikely
would it make a good general use system? yes
would it make a good cruncher? definately
good server part? yep


AMD needs to focus on the high margin server market and get out something that PERFORMS. They can scale the architecture back to us afterwards. In the end, AMD needs to take what it has, make the very most efficient use out of it no matter what the PR penalty, and then they need to price it right.
That would be quite good , BUT AMD's target has shifted towards the Retail channel , the Phenoms where first brought to the Retail enthusiast market . As for the Server parts, well the Barcelona is up and running in some servers now (Quad Barcelona Opteron) To the server market its crucial and more profitable if you upgrade just a CPU and not the Cpu+mobo. Using Barcelona in existing mobo's server user gets +2 cores with almost the same amount of power drawn from the wall socket ;].

K10 without the TLB patch @ 2.3Ghz is just a 1% slower then 2.4Ghz Q6600 in some test BUT after the TLB patch we see significant performance drop.Why does AMD never learns from its mistakes ? look at the Athlon X2 Timing fix (AMD Dual Core Optimizer) it has happend in the past it has happend now.
From the enthusiast point of view i'll buy that what has "NO problems" or the "least problems" then the other product, from a overclocker point of view i'll buy the most bang for the buck product. So to wrap it all up , Core2Duo Architecture has no problems like AMD counterparts, overclocks WAY better, and its more bang for the buck , for real now ... all these people who waited for R600 where disappointed when it finnaly came to retail (the performance drivers , and the power draw)
AMD has simply made yet another mistake and now their slogan "A Smarter choice" makes you wonder ... i would make a new one "if you don't have anything good to stand against the opposition you talk about the future"

btw: i'm not a AMD or INTEL fanboy (just using my brain for hardware choice )

[adamsleath]

e4500@3.2 ~............AMDK8@........MHz

e4500@3.2 ~............AMDK10@........MHz

can anyone fill in the blanks?
i havent seen a comparison chart of amd's and intels for so long..are there any still around?

if priced well amd can sell chips.

i mean their whole former naming scheme was based on the equivalent p4 mhz performance... (eg . 3500+ etc)
phenom x2's? quads are still a minority market segment compared to dual cores.

http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-362-1.htm
http://www.hardcoreware.net/image.php?src=5560&ts=1196511457
http://www.hardcoreware.net/image.php?src=5562&ts=1196513782

http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=10427&page=10


Benchmark HEXUS.PiFast Quake 4 Megatasking Price
AMD Phenom 9600 78.7 88.5 88.7 £159
Athlon 64 X2 6400+ 99.8 95.3 58.6 £115
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 100 100 100 £165
http://img.hexus.net/v2/processors/amd/Phenom/9700/B4BQ4.png
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=10427&page=15


ur HEXUS.bang4buck graphs show that AMD needs to lower the pricing of the Phenom 9600 to, say, around £135 before it becomes a genuinely viable option to Intel's '6600, should your usage pattern reflect that of a heavy multitasker. If the Phenom 9600's pricing (£159) stays exactly where it is right now, it's a case of too little, too late, we're afraid.

which basically backs up my thoughts on pricing ^^

price the chips competitively; the current phenom x4's need to be significantly cheaper than the q6600's.

[roadie]

Games will always be GPU bound and today's CPUs are more than powerful enough for desktop use. Any ~3Ghz part is enough, and the great thing is that the competition is driving prices down.

[Spawne32]

Games will always be GPU bound and today's CPUs are more than powerful enough for desktop use. Any ~3Ghz part is enough, and the great thing is that the competition is driving prices down.

You do realize, that that has nothing to do with what your were talking about? Thank you for your words of wisdom though.http://smiliesftw.com/x/hsugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)