want watercooling, REALLY need help...[SOLVED]

[003]

Ok, I have absolutely ZERO experience with water cooling. None whatsoever. I don't have any idea how much a good quality setup would cost, what different parts would be needed, or how much extra space aside from the computer I would need, NOTHING. I need to know all of this.:p: :confused2

I would at the very minimum be water cooling both my CPU and GPU. I don't think I would need it on my northbridge, the stock passive heatsink seems fine.

I would then proceed to overclock my CPU and GPU as high as they will possibly go and still be stable, and, if possible, I would like the whole thing to be at least as quiet as a good quiet air cooled setup.

What do I need to get? What do I need to know? How would I set it up? I'm so lost and confused it's not funny.

Oh, and a big thing. Once everything is set up, I would really want the whole thing to be as low maintenance as possible. Please help a TOTAL NOOB. :up:

[Conumdrum]

WCing is fun, expensive to start, and requires more maintenance. But boy can you lower the noise and OC like hell.

Buy nothing but the VERY best, no system premade, only the right rads, pumps, blocks, hoses, fittings, etc is all spelled out in the stickies. Then make your list and ask if your list is good. Then it's all up to you! Many to help here and steer you right for the info you need. My input? Distilled water and some anti bio stuff for liquid, add some for the night bling if you need it. No need for all the fancy smancy liq. Ohh no aluminum, if they say it's anodixed etc, no matter. Copper/Lucite/Delryn tops all the way.

With the great air cooling stuff out there (Thermalright comes to mind), depending if you need the last .0001% clocks out of your stuff because your addicted, will depend if you want to WC. Air is great for solid OC'ing as long as it's quality and you started with a great case. Having 3 120mm and a 200mm fan on my case is what I mean, not a 120 on the front and one on back.

Air works, water is better. Like moving up a class in racing, more speed, more money/work. DO YOU NEED WATER?? I do, just been waiting for the $$$. And I realy don't need the last %, but it would be fun!

[003]

How expensive are we talking? And what do you mean by fittings? I am so confused. I have checked the stickies and it's even more confusing, it seems the water blocks you choose then influence the radiators (or reservoir or both??) you need or vice versa and my head is spinning!! Anyway I am going to bed now, will check back here tomorrow :)

[qdemn7]

First things first. How much can you afford to spend. It's like anything, the more you spend the better quality you get. Rather than mix and match, buy a complete kit from Petra's. (http://www.petrastechshop.com/wacoki.html)

If you want the best, then I would this one, (http://www.petrastechshop.com/pecogpuel.html) including the 88000 ramsinks and the 3MCR320 radiator.

Total price would be $342.74 + shipping.

[fireice2]

yup, your budget will determine the performance of your water cooling system. If you go for extreme water cooling, make sure you have enough space in your case. as well.

[Zytek_Fan]

What I've looked at for WCing for a CPU + GPU loop, it came to $~400...

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

glad to see you are using ATI, its a brand sorely missed in this section. The danger den 2900 water block is solid, no matter what these people say, However I would recommend going with the Swiftech MCW-60 for universal compatibility

[Zytek_Fan]

A few recommendations:

DO NOT CHEAP OUT ON ANYTHING :up:

Anyway, for tubing, definitely get Tygon 1/2" and for a rad, definitely get something from Thermochill.

[003]

Thanks for the info... I will be back with more questions after school. Oh and the MCW60 will work on the 2900, even with the oddly positioned core? I can spend a MAXIMUM of $500, that includes everything, shipping, any tax or additional charges, etc... but I would like to spend less, like maybe $300-$400.

What's a general list of all the parts I would need?

[Xilikon]

500$ is a great budget to work with.

Thermochill PA120.3 (The best you can get).
D-Tek Fuzion CPU block.
MCW60 waterblock with ramsinks or Uni-Sink.
Laing D5 (Swiftech MCP655, make sure it's not MCP655B).
Swiftech MCRES.
About 15 feets of either Tygon or Masterkleer tubing, 7/16" or 1/2" . 15 feets might be a lot but you would want to keep some spare tubing for future replacement or upgrades.

That's the consensus the majority will agree with. This can run for about 400$ all included and Jab-Tech has the best prices. Petra's Tech Shop is also good too. If you are in Canada, NCIX is a great place too.

[003]

What about the Swiftech Storm CPU block? I've heard it's supposed to be the best. Also, that PA120.3, how is the noise? About how would the noise of this entire setup be?

Also what is the Laing D5 and the MCRES? Would the 7/16 or 1/2 tubing be better?

Also if I got all this, how would I know where to put the tubes, how long they would have to be and how many?

[Polizei]

The Storm was good a while back on IHS-less chips. Good blocks now are the D-Tek Fuzion and the Swiftech Apogee GTX.

The noise on the PA120.3 is dependent on your fans. You can run much quieter fans on the PA than you can on other rads.

Laing D5 is a pump, same as the Swiftech MCP655.

MCRes is a reservoir.

Tubing depends on your loop layout. No one here can tell you exact lengths between blocks or how to route it. We can tell you though that you want the shortest tubing possible within the loop, but you need it long enough to prevent kinks.

[003]

Ok thanks for the info. Now I have some fundamental noob questions that should answer other questions I have if these basic ones can be answered.

1. What is the radiator and why do I need one?

2. Why do I need two pumps?

3. What is the reservoir and why do I need one?

4. Finally, how would these all be connected with the tubing and how would the water flow through them (the direction)?

EDIT:
Oh yeah, should I use WATER or some other liquid? What about distilled water? I would want a liquid that cools well and is the lowest maintenance.

[003]

I'll worry about the liquid when I get there...

What would the "extra water" in the reservoir serve to do? Is it beneficial? It sounds like it would be extra work. Why would I want it?

Ok so are these all the parts I would need:

PA120.3:
http://www.jab-tech.com/Thermochill-PA120.3-pr-3264.html

D-Tek Fuzion:
http://www.jab-tech.com/D-tek-FuZion-CPU-Water-Block-pr-3667.html

MCW60:**
http://www.jab-tech.com/Swiftech-MCW60-R-VGA-cooler-pr-3777.html

MCP655:
http://www.jab-tech.com/Swiftech-MCP655-12-VDC-Pump-pr-2982.html

MCRES (it is the Micro, is that right?):
http://www.jab-tech.com/Swiftech-MCRES-Micro-pr-3093.html

I notice that a bunch of these things require you to choose the "barb size", either 1/2" or 3/8". What is a barb and what size do I need? And what size tubing should I get, 7/16" or 1/6"?

Finally, are there any other little minor parts I would need, as there always seem to be with this sort of thing. Also Swiftech recommends using distilled water + 5% of their Hydrx. How does that compare to biocide? I would be using tygon tubing with this setup. Would I need pentosin?


**Would I need this 2900 adapter:
http://www.jab-tech.com/MCW60-A2900-adapter-kit-pr-3890.html

[Jimmer411]

Get the MCR320 over the PA120.3. For the same price as the PA120.3 You can get a DDC + top or D5 and a MCR320 radiator.

The PA120.3 is a higher performing radiator, but your not going to notice it unless you have maxed out the MCR320 or any other radiator for that matter. And if your maxing out a MCR320 on 1 loop your better off just buying 2 MCR320 and running a dual loop setup and still outperforming the PA series by quite a bit.

Unless you live in UK where the PA is way cheaper.


A C2D and 8800GTX isnt enough to max out a MCR320 or PA120.3, so your temperatures will be identical with either rad. Invest in higher CFM fans and a fan controller if you want even more out of the radiator.


CPU and GPU loop is possible under 300. for $500 might as well spend a little extra and go phase... or spend the couple hundred extra on another video card because past basic (petra kit, not koolance crap) watercooling the benefits are not as high as people make them seem.

[003]

What about the questions in the post I just made with all the links? I'm confused about them.

Also I was serious when I said that I would be overclocking as high as I could possibly go, which means more volts on the C2D and 2900. And an overvolted 2900 runs very HOT (I believe hotter than any of the 8800s). So does a C2D at 1.5V+ and I'm already at 1.49v.

It sounds like I would need to use higher CFM fans with the MCR320, which equates to more noise. I want this as quiet as humanly possible. After all this is the MCR320 still a better choice?

[Jimmer411]

What about the questions in the post I just made with all the links? I'm confused about them.

Also I was serious when I said that I would be overclocking as high as I could possibly go, which means more volts on the C2D and 2900. And an overvolted 2900 runs very HOT (I believe hotter than any of the 8800s). So does a C2D at 1.5V+ and I'm already at 1.49v.

It sounds like I would need to use higher CFM fans with the MCR320, which equates to more noise. I want this as quiet as humanly possible. After all this is the MCR320 still a better choice?



IMO yes the MCR is a better choice for the price. You can run the MCR320 with slow yateloons (I am) and get the same temps as a PA. Faster fans is only an option if you want to be able to run 200+ CFM thru your radiator for bench sessions. Its something that I do when I attempt suicide runs and put 1.75v thru my A64.

[Polizei]

Youre getting the same temps because youre running an early dual core processor that doesnt put out nearly as much heat as a Core 2 does when overclocked. Same goes for the stock 1950Pro... less heat than the 2900.

Once the Core 2's voltage gets bumped a little, temps sky rocket quick, unlike your A64 X2.

For low noise, you need slow fans. To use slow fans and get max performance, you need the PA. Simple.

When I was chosing out parts for my upcoming water rig, PA120.2 or MCR320 came into play only if I couldnt find a PA120.3 in stock. I would probably go with the PA120.2 over the MCR320 even though double the price because I can run slower fans, get the same heat dissipation. Also, the less restriction in the rad would mean I could get the D-Tek Fuzion GFX, for even better temps on my videocard.

When all out performance and silence are in the same sentence, high price is right there too.

[003]

Ok so I still need to know what size "barb" I need to get with the parts where you have to specify, 3/8" or 1/2". I don't even know what a barb is.

Also for tubing, should I get 7/16" or 1/2"? I would assume 1/2 because it can carry more water. Is this correct?

Polizei are you saying that I should get the Fuzion (vga version) for the video card as well and not the MCW60? Also if I got the MCW60 would I need to get the seperate 2900 mounting kit for it?


And the really big question. With all the parts I have linked to, is that everything that I would need to take out of box and set up full water cooling, with no additional parts? Or are there other things I would need (aside from the tubing)?

[Zytek_Fan]

For coolant, I like what Feser One F1 Cooling fluid presents

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/coolantdyes.html


Barbs -> 1/2"
Tubing -> 1/2" ID
Some tubing like this: http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/ty3id1ulsovi.html

[RubberDuck]

PA120.3:
http://www.jab-tech.com/Thermochill-PA120.3-pr-3264.html

IMO I would get that Radaitor over the MCR320 anyday :up:

[003]

For coolant, I like what Feser One F1 Cooling fluid presents

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/coolantdyes.html


Barbs -> 1/2"
Tubing -> 1/2" ID
Some tubing like this: http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/ty3id1ulsovi.html

Could you link to some tygon tubing that will work best with the parts I listed on jab-tech? I'd like to order everything from the same place.

Oh, and I do NOT care about UV or lighting or anything like that. ALL I care about is quality.

I'm interested in a fluid or mixture of fluids that will be the least possible maintenance with the best possible cooling.

Is that fluid actually something to totally take the place of water or is it just some kind of dye?

Do the parts I plan to use have mixed metals, and would I need pentosin?

[Polizei]

No noticable difference between 1/2" and 7/16".

No, dont get the Fuzion GFX. It kills flow a lot, I was considering it because Im only going to have two blocks, and youre going to have three + a more restrictive radiator if you get the MCR. Stick with the MCW60.

From the parts you listed, you would only need screws to mount the fans to the radiator, and some water.

Tubing (http://jab-tech.com/Tygon-R-3603-7-16-ID-5-8-OD-Chemical-Tubing-AAC00033-pr-3957.html)

[Sparky]

use 1/2" barbs for either 7/16" or 1/2" ID tubing. 7/16" ID tubing is a little easier to work with and will seal tighter on the 1/2" barbs. Masterkleer tubing is an option to the tygon tubing, it costs a whole lot less. I run a lot by cost, and I could not justify spending 6x the amount on tygon tubing when they both do the same thing. Bend radius is fine and my tubing was crystal clear. Of course any tubing - masterkleer or tygon - will cloud eventually.

I'm using the MCR320 radiator, it works fine with slow quiet fans. PA120.3 is better but at an obvious price premium, and the difference wasn't enough for me to more than double my spending on the radiator.

Reservoir is easier to bleed than a t-line typically but it does take up more room. I think it looks cooler myself :D

Use distilled water (ONLY! No tap water!) and a few drops of biocide (like PT Nuke) to keep the algae at bay. You shouldn't need anything else as long as you stick with copper and brass in your loop.

[003]

Thanks guys I think I will get 7/16 ID tubing then. I'm only going to have two blocks, BTW.

SparkyJJO, I don't understand some of the terms you used. What do you mean by "easier to bleed" and what is a "t-line"?

Am I going to have to fit put the pump and potential reservoir inside the PC case? Speaking of that, where do these parts typically go, inside or outside the PC case? Is that "micro" MCRES reservoir that I linked to the right one?

Also, how will I actually get the water inside the loop? Will the loop need to be 100% liquid, with no air bubbles/gaps trapped in it?

Now, about the biocide. I should use PT Nuke? Do I only need to put it in once or will I have to keep adding more?

Finally, if I will be using the MCW60 vga block, Fuzion cpu block, PA120.3 reservoir and MCP655 pump, will I need to put pentosin or anything like that in the water?

Oh yeah, do I need to order the HD2900 mounting kit separately for the MCW60 or does it come with it?

If I can get my questions in this post answered I will know everything I need to in order to place an order (which I won't be able to do right away)!! I'm sorry if I am pretty thick, but as I've said, I have absolutely ZERO experience with water cooling. I've never even seen a water cooled PC in person. I want to make sure my first experience is a good one. :)

[Sparky]

bleeding is removing the air from the system. No matter how hard you try not to get air bubbles in there they will be there. Bleeding removes them.

A t line is a replacement for a reservoir. Sounds like you are using a MCres so stick with that as it will make bleeding easier.

The reservoir has a fill cap you remove then pour the water inside.

Pump and reservoir usually go inside the case yes. Very rarely are they mounted outside.

Biocide, you add some and that's it. you don't need to keep adding.

You won't need any anticorrosion stuff like pentosin with those parts, none of them are aluminum. If you want the pentosin for color though that is fine.

I think the MCW60 only comes with standard brackets, you need to order the HD2900 bracket separately (I wasn't aware it needed a different one actually).

[003]

How would I pour water in the reservoir if it is inside the case? What is the process for bleeding, how do you do it?

BTW that bug in your signature is evil!

[Zytek_Fan]

Could you link to some tygon tubing that will work best with the parts I listed on jab-tech? I'd like to order everything from the same place.

Oh, and I do NOT care about UV or lighting or anything like that. ALL I care about is quality.

I'm interested in a fluid or mixture of fluids that will be the least possible maintenance with the best possible cooling.

Is that fluid actually something to totally take the place of water or is it just some kind of dye?

Do the parts I plan to use have mixed metals, and would I need pentosin?

That fluid takes the place of water. At Jab-Tech they have Primochill PC Ice which is nonconductive (same conductivity as distilled water which is nil). There is also FluidXP+ which is slightly conductive. (in a review it didn't kill anything, it just caused a short circuit). Anything might be slightly conductive, therefore you should treat it as such.


Here's Tygon tubing at Jab-Tech
http://www.jab-tech.com/Tygon-R-3603-1-2-ID-3-4-OD-Chemical-Tubing-pr-3874.html
http://www.jab-tech.com/Tygon-R-3603-7-16-ID-5-8-OD-Chemical-Tubing-AAC00033-pr-3957.html

[003]

Ok, I am going to have to consider these fluids. What do they have over distilled water?

Now I just read this beginners guide to water cooling:
http://www.over-clock.com/ivb/index.php?showtopic=8324

And this quote makes me a bit uneasy:

If your system uses more than one kind of metal in its construction, (and it almost certainly will) then they will form a crude battery. This can cause the more reactive of the two metals to corrode.

With the parts I have selected, will the liquid be touching more than one kind of metal? Perhaps copper and brass? Are those two metals immune to this battery effect? Or should I still add an anticorrosion fluid to be safe?

[Jimmer411]

Youre getting the same temps because youre running an early dual core processor that doesnt put out nearly as much heat as a Core 2 does when overclocked. Same goes for the stock 1950Pro... less heat than the 2900.

Once the Core 2's voltage gets bumped a little, temps sky rocket quick, unlike your A64 X2.

For low noise, you need slow fans. To use slow fans and get max performance, you need the PA. Simple.

When I was chosing out parts for my upcoming water rig, PA120.2 or MCR320 came into play only if I couldnt find a PA120.3 in stock. I would probably go with the PA120.2 over the MCR320 even though double the price because I can run slower fans, get the same heat dissipation. Also, the less restriction in the rad would mean I could get the D-Tek Fuzion GFX, for even better temps on my videocard.

When all out performance and silence are in the same sentence, high price is right there too.



Price is only high because of how strong the euro is against the weak weak US dollar. Throw in export/import taxes and there you have it. It has nothing to do with performance ;)

PA series has a slightly lower FPI and is a bit thicker, the MCR is thinner but FPI isnt far behind the PA. Neither rad is as restrictive as a BI GTX, which needs higher CFM fans.



PA120.2 over a MCR320? I dont see a PA120.2 out performing a MCR320, there is alot less surface area there.

[Sparky]

How would I pour water in the reservoir if it is inside the case? What is the process for bleeding, how do you do it?

Usually you mount the reservoir someplace that you can get to it so you can detach it from the case to pour water in.


BTW that bug in your signature is evil!

:D


Ok, I am going to have to consider these fluids. What do they have over distilled water?
Nothing. FluidXP is expensive and tends to separate over time, doesn't transfer heat as well as water, and leaves gunk in the loop. Not good. PC ICE is thicker than water so it doesn't flow quite as well and again is more expensive and doesn't transfer heat as well as water. Distilled water has the best thermal properties of them all, plus is darn cheap.


Now I just read this beginners guide to water cooling:
http://www.over-clock.com/ivb/index.php?showtopic=8324

And this quote makes me a bit uneasy:

If your system uses more than one kind of metal in its construction, (and it almost certainly will) then they will form a crude battery. This can cause the more reactive of the two metals to corrode.

With the parts I have selected, will the liquid be touching more than one kind of metal? Perhaps copper and brass? Are those two metals immune to this battery effect? Or should I still add an anticorrosion fluid to be safe?
Brass and copper are so close together (brass is an alloy of copper after all) so it won't be a problem. Actually, I've heard if you keep the loop together for a few hundred years then it might do something but I doubt you'll run it that long ;)

Mixing aluminum with copper or brass is the big evil though, it will corrode like none other.

[Xilikon]

PA120.2 over a MCR320? I dont see a PA120.2 out performing a MCR320, there is alot less surface area there.

That's correct, while it won't outperform a MCR320, it is very very close (with proper fans, both can be matched).

Look at this :
http://www.thermochill.com/images/products/pa2-vs-mcr3.jpg

[Sparky]

That's correct, while it won't outperform a MCR320, it is very very close (with proper fans, both can be matched).

Look at this :
http://www.thermochill.com/images/products/pa2-vs-mcr3.jpg

MCR320 is like half the cost though (money plays a big part of things for me...)

[Xilikon]

True but for someone who cannot fit a 3x120 radiator, only a 2x120, this is a great option. If there is no fitting problem, get the MCR320 ;)

[003]

Brass and copper are so close together (brass is an alloy of copper after all) so it won't be a problem. Actually, I've heard if you keep the loop together for a few hundred years then it might do something but I doubt you'll run it that long ;)

What can I say? I'm SUPER anal about these things. :p:

How much pentosin is normally added to prevent corrosion? I will add it. It won't totally be a waste, as it also colors the water.

[Sparky]

What can I say? I'm SUPER anal about these things. :p:

How much pentosin is normally added to prevent corrosion? I will add it. It won't totally be a waste, as it also colors the water.

I think up to 10% max. Mix until you get the shade of blue you want, just don't go overboard. And nothing wrong with using it, there are many on here who use it that don't need to but want to.

[003]

Ok that sounds good. Now one other thing. I have lots of distilled water from the jewel, but would it be worth it to use water like this instead:
http://shop.audiointelligent.com/product.sc?categoryId=1&productId=9

It's probably way to expensive and overboard but just checking.

[Polizei]

Not worth it at all.

Its de-ionized, but as soon as it touches the copper and brass in your loop, it will become re-ionized.

[003]

Ok then, thanks!

[003]

Stupid me I never noticed the beginner's FAQ sticky! :rolleyes: It says in it that this is the best coolant:

1 drop of Spectrus (biocide) + 1 drop of Continuum (corrosion inhibitor) + 1.5oz glycerine (raises water's thermal conductivity co-efficient) to a litre of distilled water Is this what I should use?

Also I want to be clear on one more thing. Is EVERYTHING going to be going inside my case? :shrug: Radiator and everything? I have an NZXT Lexa. I have all the case fans removed except a 120mm intake fan and a 120mm exhaust fan, and one 3.5" hard drive, two 5 1/4" optical drives, no floppy drive. Is everything going to fit and cool efficiently for me?

And just to confirm, the parts I have selected are very high performance and will cool VERY well? Because I have been reading some guides that say the performance of one water cooling setup compared to another can vary greatly depending on quality and cost and parts, etc...

[Sparky]

Radiator might need to be mounted externally. Everything else can go inside. Thing is, on the lexa, there are those two tab-like things on top, maybe you could rig something up to mount the radiator to those. Get creative :D

[003]

Ok as long as it's no problem to mount the radiator outside. Wouldn't that be the best thing anyway because it will always get fresh and cool air?

[Polizei]

If you have enough airflow in your case, it doesnt matter if its inside or not, it just needs fresh-ish air.

Outside would be best, some want it inside for a sleek, clean look. Personal preference.