View Full Version : You Will Not Be Happy After You Read This
p00sh!t
07-19-2003, 12:18 AM
READ THIS (http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20030718155730.html)
MrLavender
07-19-2003, 03:49 AM
I will, I have a 9800 Pro. :p:
WxChaser
07-19-2003, 03:58 AM
Ecstatic here (9800 Pro 256MB), lol!
TerroH8er
07-19-2003, 05:53 AM
why can it be fixed with ATI but not nVIDIA? just curious
Johnny Knoxvill
07-19-2003, 06:36 AM
great news for us 9800 pro owners, and more terrible news for nvidia :banana:
Intronic
07-19-2003, 07:00 AM
Good for nVidia :p:
Hell-Fire
07-19-2003, 07:01 AM
Ewok, this may be the WRONG forum, but its the right place so to speak.
This is sorta big news. Alot of us follow whats going on with ATI and nVidia, so this is a must read....mainly because many of us overclockers are hardcore gamers. Think about it, we arent pimping out da rigs so that we can word process at the speed of light. :doh:
Also, along with Doom3, Half-Life II is one of the most anticiapted games coming out, and for those of us who are on the fence as to what vid card to buy for that game......this is MUST read. To take advantage of the killer effects in the newer games, you need a DX9 card,,,,and when someone says that a specific card will more or less blow with a major gaming release...thats news to follow.
Look at it this way, this forum gets most of the traffic at XtremeSystems.....so sometimes its better to post here so people will see the Thread.
Av3ng3r
07-19-2003, 09:59 AM
Lol i am still running at my geforce 2 gts pro. Going to get a ATI soon :)
IMHO NV has been cheating/ hacking the snot out of everything as of late ( AT LEAST AS OF LATE- some see back ALOT further....... those bastages)......
Their cards are NOT up to snuff in reality, and I don't care what the orb says.
I trust NOTHING they do, including the 3dmark scores my boys are putting up here.
Sorry they are lying and cheating IMO.
EOS
berkut
07-19-2003, 10:08 AM
Not all of us use FSAA, i for instance hate FSAA cause it makes the picture blurry, i love sharp images, anizo filtering is the way to go...
Holst
07-19-2003, 10:58 AM
Sounds to me like this is valves fault not Nvidias.
Its not like they dont have the oppotunity to test there engine with FSAA on Nvidias hardware.
No other games have this problem, seems to me like they are just putting the blame on manufacturers rather than there own code...
if it wont work with ATI or Nvidia cards what are they testing on, parhelias LOL :P
althes
07-19-2003, 11:15 AM
Good thing I have my 9700pro.:D
saaya
07-19-2003, 11:27 AM
ati uses diferent algorithms and techniques for aa, thats why it can be fixed with ati cards.
weird though, after all this "programable" gpu stuff we hear it seems they cant change they way aa works?
i dont use aa neither... af is def worth more to me, as i always play in 1024x768 aa doesnt really make a diference for me.
Originally posted by Holst
Sounds to me like this is valves fault not Nvidias.
Its not like they dont have the oppotunity to test there engine with FSAA on Nvidias hardware.
No other games have this problem, seems to me like they are just putting the blame on manufacturers rather than there own code...
if it wont work with ATI or Nvidia cards what are they testing on, parhelias LOL :P
I'd prefer to believe that NV is fuggin around as usual...
Unfortunatley that doesn't seem to the the case right now.
nelamvr6
07-19-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Holst
Sounds to me like this is valves fault not Nvidias.
Its not like they dont have the oppotunity to test there engine with FSAA on Nvidias hardware.
No other games have this problem, seems to me like they are just putting the blame on manufacturers rather than there own code...
if it wont work with ATI or Nvidia cards what are they testing on, parhelias LOL :P
I'm not so sure you can balme Valve, they're probably following the Dx9 spec.
I guess there's more than enough blame to go arround, including at least some for micro$oft.
Penguin4x4
07-19-2003, 12:05 PM
so does this problem lie soley on the new FX series or does it plague all nVidia cards?
Tweaked!
07-19-2003, 12:18 PM
Ok well, I'll go ahead and move this over to Online gaming now that most have had a chance to see it, plus if someone feels they might miss it there, they should be browsing that forum as well, if that's what they're interested in.
GVCryan
07-19-2003, 03:46 PM
I would say it is Microsoft, since they said the problem is in the directX 9 spec.
Since ATI and nVidia use different shaders, I would imagine they can be patched via DX9 or BIOS.
MrLavender
07-19-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by GVCryan
I would say it is Microsoft, since they said the problem is in the directX 9 spec. That is correct, apparently the ATI hardware does it properly but DX9 doesn't properly expose the necessary interfaces, that can easily be fixed in DX9.1 and can be hacked around for the moment.
But if they're saying that it can't be fixed on Nvidia cards then are we to assume that hardware DOESN'T do it properly?
Kurrurrin
07-19-2003, 06:37 PM
its not microsoft's fault or valve's fault that nvidia didn't make their cards DX9 compliant. DX9 was laid out far enough in advance for nvidia to work their hardware around it. But instead, nvidia decided to try and cheat through dx9 specs and now its caught them in the ass.
hedge
07-20-2003, 11:11 AM
I have have an ati card as well now. This not nvidias fault, it is a problem inherent to DX9, Muzz, so stop with the slamming. Ati used different algorithms as someone mentioned above that allow for a workaround to be produced. It was also stated that this problem will be fixed with DX9.1 if you need any further proof that the problem lies within directX.
Amoeba Assassin
07-20-2003, 01:36 PM
valve would have to be pretty ignorant to make the game unable to run on nvidia cards, I'd say there are more nvidia owners out there than Ati....
sandman
07-20-2003, 03:58 PM
If you just can't use fsaa, then it wouldn't be a big deal imo. Most people won't be able to run it with fsaa anyway. I'm talking about the average gamer.
BTW, I have a 9500....so it doesn't really effect me.
Originally posted by hedge
I have have an ati card as well now. This not nvidias fault, it is a problem inherent to DX9, Muzz, so stop with the slamming. Ati used different algorithms as someone mentioned above that allow for a workaround to be produced. It was also stated that this problem will be fixed with DX9.1 if you need any further proof that the problem lies within directX.
Go back and read........:rolleyes:
Ulfar
07-21-2003, 09:36 AM
hehehe.... im happy i got mah 9500 to 9800 ish :D
hedge
07-22-2003, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by muzz
Go back and read........:rolleyes:
Ok, I missed your last point where you mentioned that it wasn't their fault in this particular case. Sorry.
Sir_Brizz
07-23-2003, 12:58 AM
In all honesty it looks like someone just got their panties in a twirl over nothing in that article. I mean honestly, how mean people do you see writing things about games that aren't released and issues that are already being resolved? What a waste of time...
Originally posted by hedge
Ok, I missed your last point where you mentioned that it wasn't their fault in this particular case. Sorry.
Not a problem man.
Dissolved
07-25-2003, 02:18 PM
i dont like AA either..
If this game grpahics are good enough you shouldnt need aa much anyways.. and id rather have the framerate then Perfect images..
hedge
07-25-2003, 05:02 PM
But if you have the ability to have both good framerate and Perfect Image quality...then you will want to use features like AA or just run at a higher Resolution.
MrLavender
07-27-2003, 05:15 AM
More info from Valve here (http://content.guru3d.com/newsitem.php?id=221).
Since people seem to be hyperventilating over the anti-aliasing issue, I thought I'd update everyone.
1) How bad is the problem?
With current multi-sample implementations of anti-aliasing, you may sample texels outside of the polygon boundary, which may result in sampling light maps from other polygons.
This has always been a problem. This is a problem with Quake 1, Quake 2, Quake 3, Daikatana, Sin, Elite Force, Half-Life, Counter-Strike on the X-Box, or any game that uses packed lightmaps with multi-sample anti-aliasing.
You would see these artifacts on polygon boundaries where the wrong lightmap is being sampled. It will look like a bright or dark line on the edge of a polygon.
Gary McTaggart brought this up in an email because he is being pretty hardcore about graphics quality right now. This is not a new problem. If you've run a game that uses lightmaps with anti-aliasing turned on, then you've been seeing these artifacts the whole time.
Artifacts may show up more frequently in Half-Life 2 simply because we've eliminated lots of other artifacts, and because we have a lot of variation in scene lighting due to our art direction.
To put this in perspective, not doing tri-linear filtering on mipmaps is a lot worse.
2) What are potential solutions?
Support Centroid Sampling
Use Pixel Shaders to Clamp Texture Coordinates
Centroid sampling doesn't have the problem that center sampling does in multi-sample antil-aliasing. ATI has supported this form of anti-aliasing for the 9000 series. The tricky part is enabling this when DirectX doesn't easily expose this.
There's a different trick you can use with hardware, such as NVIDIA's, that doesn't support centroid sampling. Basically you trade off some pixel shader bandwidth to clamp the texture coordinates so that you don't sample texels outside of that polygon's lightmap sub-rect.
Between these two approaches, multi-sample anti-aliasing artifacts should be a non-issue for any DX9-level hardware running Pixel Shader 2.0.
3) How will this look?
We'll release one of the demo movies with the anti-aliasing artifacts in and one with the anti-aliasing changes.So looks like it is fixable on Nvidia after all (with a small performance hit).