View Full Version : Pa120.4??
Sideroxylon
03-09-2007, 06:30 AM
Any plans for this to be developed? Or are they working on it already? Maybe Marci can chime in here.
What i got only 2 week ago via e-mail when i asked him for a PA120.4
Speka directly with Marci, he sent me a very indepth set of over informative e-mails but the deman is there..trust me
Marci, mark you e-mail as confidential in futre please
Freaking forum was down and then wouldn't load so unable to chnage till now..sorry
Marci
03-09-2007, 08:18 AM
*ahem*
Emails are confidential communications not to be shared without permission. T'would be appreciated if you removed the above.
See signature of my email on 14th Feb regarding Performance Shroud... (which admittedly was omitted from the specific email in question, but on principle t'would be appreciated)
This email, its content and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the addressee and may be legally privileged and/or confidential
Pete,
Honour the confidentiality, please.
redcorn
03-09-2007, 08:54 AM
Any plans for this to be developed? Or are they working on it already? Maybe Marci can chime in here.
Its probably cheaper and better to use a PA120.3 in combo with 120.2.
120.4 where would you put it? no cases on the market can handle the length.
Marci
03-09-2007, 09:00 AM
Indeed, the added length of another fan in the typical ThermoChill-esque way (ie: our larger fan spacing between the fans) results in a PA120.4 of current format being too big for installation in any case, hence we're in no rush to release them until there is a clear and strong demand for such.
There are other formats that are being investigated that are more accomodatable within current popular cases that would offer similar (if not better) performance... but the majority at the moment are happy to go with multiple radiators and (relatively) simple fitting than have to find something to accomodate a radiator that would total 556mm(ish) length. One-off's and limited runs are simply not economically viable for us to produce. Work is in progress, when there's any news or updates I'll let ppl know... but until then, PA120.3 is our largest format radiator and will remain so...
redcorn
03-09-2007, 11:20 AM
Indeed, the added length of another fan in the typical ThermoChill-esque way (ie: our larger fan spacing between the fans) results in a PA120.4 of current format being too big for installation in any case, hence we're in no rush to release them until there is a clear and strong demand for such.
There are other formats that are being investigated that are more accomodatable within current popular cases that would offer similar (if not better) performance... but the majority at the moment are happy to go with multiple radiators and (relatively) simple fitting than have to find something to accomodate a radiator that would total 556mm(ish) length. One-off's and limited runs are simply not economically viable for us to produce. Work is in progress, when there's any news or updates I'll let ppl know... but until then, PA120.3 is our largest format radiator and will remain so...
Now if only you would use G1/4 fittings for easier barb fittings. LOL but I know thats not going to happen.
redcorn
03-09-2007, 11:21 AM
Indeed, the added length of another fan in the typical ThermoChill-esque way (ie: our larger fan spacing between the fans) results in a PA120.4 of current format being too big for installation in any case, hence we're in no rush to release them until there is a clear and strong demand for such.
There are other formats that are being investigated that are more accomodatable within current popular cases that would offer similar (if not better) performance... but the majority at the moment are happy to go with multiple radiators and (relatively) simple fitting than have to find something to accomodate a radiator that would total 556mm(ish) length. One-off's and limited runs are simply not economically viable for us to produce. Work is in progress, when there's any news or updates I'll let ppl know... but until then, PA120.3 is our largest format radiator and will remain so...
Now if only you would use G1/4 fittings for easier barb fittings. LOL but I know thats not going to happen.
Why would Thermochill use G-1/4" when all it would do is introduce more restriction and it kills performance?
We should convince all the bloody water block manufacturers to adopt 3/8" instead. Forget it.. everyone move to 1/2" straight through...
Why would Thermochill use G-1/4" when all it would do is introduce more restriction and it kills performance?
We should convince all the bloody water block manufacturers to adopt 3/8" instead. Forget it.. everyone move to 1/2" straight through...
I agree but G1/4'' is same as 1/2' being 12mm anyway is it not?
I agree but G1/4'' is same as 1/2' being 12mm anyway is it not?
I agree.. But look at a G-3/8" or 3/8" BSP.. look at the inside connector where the barb is screwed into the Thermochill.. its actually 14 mm.
The last thing I want is to shrink barbs. Why can't we have 1 inch tubing anyway :)
LOL cos i don;t fancying routing about 14'' in dia hose in my 7 loops
I do agree keep the barbs as they are on the rad they work well
redcorn
03-09-2007, 04:19 PM
I agree.. But look at a G-3/8" or 3/8" BSP.. look at the inside connector where the barb is screwed into the Thermochill.. its actually 14 mm.
The last thing I want is to shrink barbs. Why can't we have 1 inch tubing anyway :)
Why dont we all just use garden hoses then?:slap:
ramenchef
03-09-2007, 04:27 PM
lol, a bit big there. Anyways, it would be nice if everyone switched to the same sized barbs.
OT: Anyone notice that quotes are going bananas literally?
SlicerSV
03-09-2007, 06:17 PM
Indeed, the added length of another fan in the typical ThermoChill-esque way (ie: our larger fan spacing between the fans) results in a PA120.4 of current format being too big for installation in any case, hence we're in no rush to release them until there is a clear and strong demand for such.
wouldn't it be better to make a 120.4 and 120.6 by doubling the rows? instead of making a rad twice as long, make it twice as wide. not wide as in the thickness kind of wide, but as in add more 120mm fans on another row.
OT: Anyone notice that quotes are going bananas literally?
yeah, i noticed... i think they're trying to make changes to the way the board software handles quotes... imo, they should just ditch this board software and move on to PHPbb or SMF like the rest of the world.
MaxxxRacer
03-09-2007, 06:19 PM
Why dont we all just use garden hoses then?:slap:
I think garden hose is either 1/2" or 3/8" isnt it?
Sideroxylon
03-09-2007, 07:06 PM
I think garden hose is either 1/2" or 3/8" isnt it?
Most garden variety hose is 5/8" or 3/4".
redcorn
03-09-2007, 07:29 PM
I think garden hose is either 1/2" or 3/8" isnt it?
Ok I meant fire hoses:)
MaxxxRacer
03-09-2007, 07:35 PM
bah i meant 5/8" not 3/8".
lol redcorn.. that woud be a little pointless. with 3/4" ID tubing the flow resistance is so low that anything below that is just pointless to the point that not even XS members would think to go bigger.. (not that any of us are contemplating 3/4" now anyway, atlhough I did use 5/8" for a while)
back on topic, a 140.3 or a 160.2 would be intresting :)
ramenchef
03-09-2007, 08:21 PM
140.3 would be rediculously expensive, and 160.2 is stated by marci to have the same surface area as a pa120.3, and the pa120.3 is much easier to mount, so there is no point.
guess i missed that post about the 160 :p: . I thought that the pa160 was just below the pa120.2 in performance :confused:
ramenchef
03-09-2007, 08:45 PM
It is. pa120.3 is not twice as good as a pa120.2.
It is. pa120.3 is not twice as good as a pa120.2.
I didn't say it was, I just figured if everything scaled equally a 160.2 would scale just under a theoretical 120.4 (this is a rather large assumption on my part with no data to back it up :p: )
ramenchef
03-09-2007, 09:52 PM
It's really not a hair under a pa120.2. It's about a pa120.1.5 performance from the numbers provided.
STEvil
03-09-2007, 10:25 PM
Pa 160.3? :d
MaxxxRacer
03-09-2007, 10:48 PM
oh ya.. well PA256.9!
but seriously, if you REALLY think you need more cooling than a PA120.3 and you want it quiet.. just get 2. As the old wrinkely guy in Contact said, "Why buy 1 when you can buy 2 at twice the cost!"
Radical_53
03-09-2007, 11:12 PM
Wise words :toast:
What I'd really like to see would be a minor update, just to use the available space a little bit better: A PA that's suited to take 140mm fans :)
A little added width and a little added length shouldn't hurt too much in most cases.
MaxxxRacer
03-10-2007, 12:27 AM
Wise words :toast:
What I'd really like to see would be a minor update, just to use the available space a little bit better: A PA that's suited to take 140mm fans :)
A little added width and a little added length shouldn't hurt too much in most cases.
hell, if you sandwidched the fans together like on Black Ice rads, you might not even need to make it any longer (or atleast only a few mm)
Radical_53
03-10-2007, 03:39 AM
Yes, that's how I'm using it right now with a ghetto-style cardboard shroud. Of course it works. Still, as a 140mm fan just fits a 5 1/4" slot, that added surface of the rad doesn't implicitly add more problems, but might add a little more performance.
No biggie for sure, but would be an easy way to gain.
Marci
03-10-2007, 01:32 PM
A prototype does exist that is ideal for a 140mm fan, and was tested... has it's uses... not been taken further than 1st stage - Cathar has it ;)
Later...
Why does cathar allways have all the good stuff :p Could be cool to see some pics thoug, just for the fun of it :)
Cathar
03-10-2007, 07:43 PM
A prototype does exist that is ideal for a 140mm fan, and was tested... has it's uses... not been taken further than 1st stage - Cathar has it ;)
Oh? We're making this public now?
It's true. We made a PA140 prototype together. First stage as Marci says.
The PA160 itself arose purely out of theoretical conjecture - rather than as a data driven process feeding back into an improved design. The PA160 design was also theorised more with middling speed fans in mind (~50-60cfm). It could be slightly improved upon with knowledge gained from the PA120 series design & testing sequence. As it stands, it performs excellently across a very broad range of fan speeds. Could probably gain a further 10-15% performance with it, but would need to make it deeper, and that would impact mounting practicality.
Marci and I both realised that the PA160, in the flesh, was also a fairly large radiator. This was in part due to Thermochill's use of their hi-flow end-tanks, and so didn't quite fit into as many cases as was hoped for, and so the PA140 concept was born.
The PA140 was specced much later than the PA160, and also had the benefit of having data from the PA120.x design & test sequences to draw from. It was also designed to perform better at the lower ends of the fan speed ranges (<60cfm), rather than the 50-80cfm of the PA160's original design. This was settled in after much research with actual fans searching for acceptably quiet physically existing fans, and not just trusting manufacturer specs. In a nutshell, if a fan is specced for >60cfm, it's gonna be noisy when run at full speed, and also fairly noisy even at lower speeds due to the beefier motor bearings. No ifs, buts, or anything else. Reality is what it is.
The PA140 performs very well. It is only a first-stab prototype, so it may not be as highly performing as it could possibly be, but it'd be pretty close. In my testing it actually outperformed the PA160 by around 5% with low speed fans (~25cfm), level pegs with the PA160 at ~50cfm, and loses to the PA160 by around 10% with 100cfm fans. Given that it cedes a 30% facial surface area loss to the PA160, that is a fairly monumental achievement, and highlights the advances we made together with the PA120 design.
If you love using very low speed fans, and can still fit a single slightly over-sized 120mm fan based radiator in-case, the PA140 prototype is the best single slower-speed fan radiator I've tested. For stronger & noisier fans, stick with the PA160. Coupled with a slow & quiet 140mm fan, which was Marci's and my final design intention, the PA140 would make for an extremely compelling compact format single-fan low-noise radiator solution that would fit into far more cases than the PA160.
Now that Marci's made the PA140's existence public, the ball's in his court to decide if the time is ripe to pursue it further. The above information may help him to guage a measure of interest.
As for pictures, I don't think that'd be a wise idea at this stage. Too many sharks in the water, and some key design elements would be given away in a photo. Suffice to say, it looks like a slightly over-sized PA120.1, being 2cm longer and wider, and this may be something to consider before you voice any vocal support for it, by first deciding whether or not it would fit for you, and therefore be a more useful design size.
phelan1777
03-10-2007, 07:45 PM
Oh? We're making this public now?
It's true. We made a PA140 prototype together. First stage as Marci says.
HAHAHAHA Pass the BUCK, thought that only worked here in US Politics :nono:
If I remember correctly there are 140mm YLs, I think Crediki has three.
If there was a 140.2, I am curious if it would fit in the front of a Stacker? I mean with the 120.3 there is about 1/2-5/8" clearance on either side of the rad.....could make for a tight fit, hell even a 140.3 hmmmmmmm
Cathar
03-10-2007, 07:50 PM
HAHAHAHA Pass the BUCK, thought that only worked here in US Politics :nono:
Eh? I don't work for Thermochill, but I am very happy to work with them to get better products out there for all.
I don't mind Marci mentioning the PA140, then my name, and so passing the buck to me. Have been wanting to spill the beans on it for ages.
Cathar
03-10-2007, 08:29 PM
Yes, that's how I'm using it right now with a ghetto-style cardboard shroud. Of course it works. Still, as a 140mm fan just fits a 5 1/4" slot, that added surface of the rad doesn't implicitly add more problems, but might add a little more performance.
No biggie for sure, but would be an easy way to gain.
A 5 1/4" slot is actually 147mm wide.
The PA140 prototype is 145mm wide. I have a CD-ROM drive sitting here, and it's 146mm wide. So the PA140 would fit, so long as you didn't have any in-bay guiding tabs in the way. Some case bays have little bits of metal that stick out that drives and the like can sit on, even with no screws holding them in place.
Now that would be a nice design enhancement for mounting. Put some drive bay screw holes in the side of the radiator. So long as you don't use screws longer than 10mm (3/8") it'd be safe. You could then mount the radiator completely flush against the case ceiling, and not have to use the case ceiling for holding the radiator in place.
ramenchef
03-10-2007, 08:35 PM
The more I hear about the 140 series the better it sounds. Would these use a shroud to adapt to 120mm or will there be an option to use 140mm fans too? Hopefully they'll have up to XXX.3 size rads to come out and not just limited to a single fan rad. :D
Cupcake
03-10-2007, 08:40 PM
wow what would a PS120.4 be for
like 3000w worth of TECs ?
Tsk tsk.. what's wrong with loading up on two or three PA120.3s? Why bother with unusual sized radiators?
Sideroxylon
03-10-2007, 11:54 PM
Tsk tsk.. what's wrong with loading up on two or three PA120.3s? Why bother with unusual sized radiators?
LOL. We all know you don't mind having 17 loops in your rig.
Some of us like things a little more compact. :stick:
Back on topic...I'm all for a PA140 series of rads. Sign me up for a 140.3. Should fit nicely in my TJ07.
hopper
03-11-2007, 01:54 AM
is it wider than a standard case or not (pa140) would it fit on top or for a internal top mount,,,internal would have to be able to slide in the 5 1/4 drive bay area
140 millimeters = 5.51181102 in
hummmm
Cathar
03-11-2007, 03:04 AM
The 5.25" size does not refer to the size of the drive bay, but rather the size of the old 5.25" floppy disks, which were 5.25" in diameter. Naturally the disk drives that the disks went into had to be wider than the floppy disks themselves, and this is why the drive bays themselves are 147mm wide, or around 5.8".
If the case itself has a 5.25" drive bay, then it is wider internally than the PA140.
hopper
03-11-2007, 03:32 AM
lol sry it was posted already and i didnt read it all i skipped over you earlier.... im at work monitoring servers and changing phone system time... daylight savings nonsense
if it fits thats cool i just was looking at a yate loon 140
Cathar
03-11-2007, 10:37 AM
Hmmm, the PA140 probably needs its own thread, rather than being buried in a PA120.4 thread.
Hmmm, the PA140 probably needs its own thread, rather than being buried in a PA120.4 thread.
Your the man to do it but i guess Marci will let us know about it fulll in time then...
ramenchef
03-11-2007, 11:39 AM
Hehe, mountain mods will need a new lineup of cases that'll fit the 140 series naturally if these really do come out. :D
good thing they have replaceable side panels
ramenchef
03-11-2007, 12:22 PM
They'd have to make the cases taller and wider actually, so removeable sidepanels would be moot.
Panthols
03-11-2007, 01:13 PM
I've been looking for a reason to buy a new MM case, and this sounds like just the thing. It'll just hurt a little to have my current box powder coated pink for my wife.
skane
03-11-2007, 01:47 PM
the pa140 is very interesting indeed. atm, im waiting for money to come in near the end of the year to start watercooling, and i would definitly get the pa140 if its was released. especially if it fits perfectly into a 5.25" bay, you would have the best possible use of the available space.