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View Full Version : Hwbot points very poor for 3dmark results



zakelwe
02-08-2007, 11:24 AM
I generally just bench 3dmark and have been doing for 7 years now.

Recently I have been trying to do points for hwbot for XS due to the new competition with OCX. Hwbot people have claimed that they get more results posted to hwbot than futuremark on a daily basis and should be considered a rival worth financially sponsoring like 3dmark. But is this reasonable ?

For instance here is my current hwbot listing

http://www.aocb77.dsl.pipex.com/hwbot.JPG

Looking at that result my top point scoring by a factor of 5 is the worst place position of #5 which was done with a card out of my gaming rig with no volt mods of extra cooling, as per my description

X6800 410x10 air cooled Crucial Ballistix memory 3-3-3 1T SLi Galaxy 7900GS 600c/830m

Now here is the description of my FX 5700U record which I am very proud of due to the amount of time I took

702c/1230m Msi 5700Ultra with 2ns GDDR3 memory, 1.82v gpu mod ( thanx walldow for guide), no mod for memory. gpu cooled by heatsink off Asus V9999GE G-glamped on.FX-55 12x246 air cooled Zalman 7000 with fan ripped out and delta 80mm fan on top. 1.7v.Memory Mushkin bh-5 at 2-5-2-2 246Mhz 1:1 @ 3.44v. Whole thing cooled by Papst 6212nm. Ambient temp 1.2C

That was for 2 :rolleyes: points

Which do you think was quality and which was just banged in there ?

The FX 5700U result has stood at the top for 2 YEARS NOW and probably will never be beaten as Conroe cannot very easily go with AGP ;)


To me that FX result is worth 10 points and that 7900GS score is worth at the most 1 point. Unless the scoring is sorted out on hwbot for 3dmark in a fair way for class results then they can never be seen, in my eyes, to surpass 3dmarks ORB.

Comments from hwbot ?

Regards

Andy

[XC]melymel
02-08-2007, 01:13 PM
I also feel that it is unfair for someone to get extra points just for having the most expensive hardware but I have always felt this way and been told to just live with the fact that to get credit you have to pay! I myself have the most points for having a wprime result in the top 100 which IMO I don't deserve points for.

So yes points should be based on effort not money! Would it be possible to get input from the hwbot memebrs on a new scoring system maybe? Trophies for top overall scores but not points perhaps?

:toast:

HeavyH20
02-08-2007, 01:40 PM
Well, the points are based on the popularity of the card. So, if you are benching a card and have one of five on the database, getting first place is not too much of a feat. If, however, you are trying to get into the rankings with a 7900GTX and there are 2000 results, getting top spot is much harder. In fact, getting into the top 50 will be difficult. So, I found the point system makes sense in that respect. A 7300GT should yield less points simply based on popularity versus a 7600GT or 7900GTX since that is what people are more likely to own. So, first place for a 8800GTX, 7.7 points, 7900GTX, 4.9 points, first place for a 7600GT, 4.9 points and first place for a 7300GT, 2.1 points. Looks fair to me. There are simply more people with a 8800GTX card than a 7300GT.

As for the 5700, there are 5 results in 06 with every single result yielding points. Not much competition there. Compare that to the 122 submitted 8800 GTX results.

G H Z
02-08-2007, 06:11 PM
I've got a few scores that were real achievments that earn zero. Be happy your getting 2 points, a 22.5 sec 1M FX-57 is worth zero and was done by very few overclockers out there. If more points were given for mid-low end hardware there is a real possibility we'd see someone who is not a top bencher in the #1 spot by simply benching a bunch of different hardware. The way points are given now I think is a very good representation of who's who skill wise in the benching community.

Gorod
02-08-2007, 10:51 PM
I've got a few scores that were real achievments that earn zero. Be happy your getting 2 points, a 22.5 sec 1M FX-57 is worth zero and was done by very few overclockers out there.

ya man - so true , i feel your pain :( ... i remember it took A LOT to get 22.25 with FX57 back in good old times , spent a full day benching and tweaking and fightintg with damn cold bug :lol: , 20 lbs of DI and catched a cold after all :D ( it was winter and benched with open windows lol ) . And its worth 0.0 points after all , yah ... :stick:

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=546875


But guess what - i get a full 2.0 points for 5 min spent benching stupid i945GM from my laptop :banana:

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=575110

Not very fair if you ask me :bs: :(

mrlobber
02-08-2007, 11:58 PM
I still think the scoring system is reasonable. Why? Because one important thing to remember: hwbot only recently started gaining wide popularity. That means, for old middle and low-end hardware you do not get many points since people aren't benching it for a while already. However, records for new not-so-expensive hardware are worth more - just look how many results are there in E6400 class, for example (and you get 10 points for being top 1 in Superpi 1M there which is not an easy task there anymore, by no means) ;) And I predict that with the popularity of hwbot increasing further, more and more people will bench also the cheaper hardware, so the top benchers in these classes will get the honor they deserve :) :toast:

massman
02-09-2007, 08:54 AM
Which do you think was quality and which was just banged in there ?

The FX 5700U result has stood at the top for 2 YEARS NOW and probably will never be beaten as Conroe cannot very easily go with AGP ;)

To me that FX result is worth 10 points and that 7900GS score is worth at the most 1 point. Unless the scoring is sorted out on hwbot for 3dmark in a fair way for class results then they can never be seen, in my eyes, to surpass 3dmarks ORB.


First of all, the link to our faq: Link (http://www.hwbot.org/hwbot.post.do?postId=38)

Hwboints are basically points handed out to for a score. Getting awards is great, but we recognize the fact that certain awards are much, much harder to get than others, and that not getting an award for a great score (eg. 10th in SuperPi ranking) is not fair. Like awards, hwboints can be recieved for either being high in the global rank or hardware rank. Unlike awards, the hwboints are greatly influenced by how many people participate in the global / hardware ranking. You will recieve a lot more hwboints for having a high rank in superpi, than having one in a less popular ranking, like pifast.

First rule is quite clear to understand, and is imho very logical. The more popular a benchmark gets, the more points it's worth.

The same rule applies for the hardware rankings: the more popular a certain vga/cpu gets, the more results it's worth. Logical, I think.

Your situation is very normal, as hwbot didn't have the facilities it has today, we have less results of the older cpu/vga's. Within a few years, you'll see the difference. A 6600gt will be worth more compared to my fx5700 vanilla.

mtzki
02-09-2007, 09:21 AM
hwboints rev2 proposition will be made public soon. It will be much better at rewarding for trying...no more 0-bointers. :)

But that said, it's absolutely impossible to design the system in such a way that there would not be single cases that feel unfair. The boint levels must be based on the popularity of the ranking. There's no way to make the system such that it could understand how difficult some bench has been if there are no other results in the same category.

Movieman
02-09-2007, 09:46 AM
My 2 cents even though it would take points away from me:
I ran wPrime on a machine with no tweaking, no fancy settings, just turned off all the apps I had running and then ran wPrime.
Bingo..2nd fastest score ever posted.(1st is a machine like mine also)
No skill, no nothing, just pure computational power.
Then my score gets compared to a guy who obviously has a ton of time tweaking 1/2 the cores I have, running his on LN2 but still I blow his scores away.
I don't think this is fair to him. We're comparing Apples and Oranges.
wPrime should be in cpu type to be fair.

mtzki
02-09-2007, 09:57 AM
You have just the right system for wPrime and imo those boints are right for it. If others want best scores in wPrime they must build or have a system that's suitable for it.

And instead of focusing on single cases, the hwboints system must focus on the big picture.

Movieman
02-09-2007, 10:02 AM
You have just the right system for wPrime and imo those boints are right for it. If others want best scores in wPrime they must build or have a system that's suitable for it.

And instead of focusing on single cases, the hwboints system must focus on the big picture.
I understand. Please understand that I pointed out a situation where it was just machinery with no skill involved and I thought that was unfair to someone who'd put a ton of time into getting the most out of his equipment.
Now if you guys can get that bogus sisoft sandra score removed so I can crow on my score I'll be a happy camper!:D
The guy submitted a multimedia score not a math score.:rolleyes:

mtzki
02-09-2007, 10:25 AM
I don't think one can just stumble upon a dual Clovertown. Those boints were well deserved. :)

But my point really is that there's no way to define the system such that some of the awarded scores (like for the FX-57 spi results mentioned here) wouldn't feel unfair. Once the system has been fixed one should concentrate on getting the most out of it. Doing well in the hwbot competition requires playing the game by it's inherent rules at least to some extent.

Movieman
02-09-2007, 10:54 AM
I don't think one can just stumble upon a dual Clovertown. Those boints were well deserved. :)

But my point really is that there's no way to define the system such that some of the awarded scores (like for the FX-57 spi results mentioned here) wouldn't feel unfair. Once the system has been fixed one should concentrate on getting the most out of it. Doing well in the hwbot competition requires playing the game by it's inherent rules at least to some extent.
You'd be surprised! :D Literally fell into them at a price that would amaze you!

eva2000
02-09-2007, 11:42 AM
You'd be surprised! :D Literally fell into them at a price that would amaze you!
ah i wish i fell on such a price too hehe

i think the current mechanism for pts is fair as it gives folks like me (predominantly stock/no volt mod air/water cooling only guys) a chance at some decent pts.. :D

zakelwe
02-09-2007, 12:31 PM
Within a few years, you'll see the difference.

I shall not be ringing this tech support line again young man !

:eek:

:D

Regards

Andy

massman
02-09-2007, 12:41 PM
I shall not be ringing this tech support line again young man !

:eek:

:D

Regards

Andy

I don't really get what you're saying now ... :confused: :)

Kunaak
02-09-2007, 12:51 PM
I've got tons of achievements all over 3dmark...

but the few things I post, I find I get little to nothing for a score from them, and its quite pointless to put so much effort into something, when you get almost nothing for it.

now, I just dont bother uploading anything of my 3dmark stuff.
its just not worth it, it takes me 2-3 minutes for every upload, takes me about 10 minutes to sift through a dozen pages in my ORB account to find various older achievements... and 9/10 times I get nothing for it.
so why bother?

unless its done with current hardware, it seems to be pointless to upload older info. in the end, I like getting HW points, but I am not going to die, if I am not getting 1000000 points for every 2 bit OC I ever did either.

HeavyH20
02-09-2007, 01:25 PM
Well, the HWBOT competition for points is not about history so much as it is about going forward from the deployment point. So, 6800 Ultra results or X850XT PE results will not fare very well since there are little to no competing results. The same will hold true of the FX-57. And, another item to consider, the people submitting scores are the hardware enthusiast/ benchers that have the latest items. Now, if everyone posted all their older results, those particular hardware points would rise with additional results. No surpise there.

I would also contend that the points for global ranking may be a tad high and they are only available to the top 5 results, period. This creates a "god" status for the top 5 but may also curtail average enthusiast /bencher's from submitting results for too few points compared to the leaders. And, as witnessed with the 2 point hardware grabs, people have already cited a "why bother" attitude unless they can get more reasonable returns, especially when the top 20 are in the 250 plus point arena.

Raja@ASUS
02-10-2007, 04:52 AM
I have been talking to a lot of people about hwbot, and to date the best concept I have heard, that is impossible to administer would be to separate the cooling sections to air/water/chilled/phase/di and ln2 others. That would create a real battle. Atm, it's so easy to use sub zero and get good averages on points whilst users of air and water with good reults get left for dead, and even though those averages could be increased thru an increase of entries in genre, the initial score mountain altitude is just too high to encourage the competition.

massman
02-10-2007, 05:02 AM
I have been talking to a lot of people about hwbot, and to date the best concept I have heard, that is impossible to administer would be to separate the cooling sections to air/water/chilled/phase/di and ln2 others. That would create a real battle. Atm, it's so easy to use sub zero and get good averages on points whilst users of air and water with good reults get left for dead, and even though those averages could be increased thru an increase of entries in genre, the initial score mountain altitude is just too high to encourage the competition.

Impossible to moderate ... we thought about it, but it would be too difficult

HeavyH20
02-10-2007, 06:26 AM
You would have people on water claiming air and phase claiming water. No way to tell based on the result. And, a properly watercooled/air/stock system fairs very well in the points. Just look at EVA2000 for that possibility.

Also, people are more interested in the fastest system, period. So, we all like to read about 24K runs with quad powered and LN2 cooled 8800 GTX SLI systems. While certain scores on a 7600GT take a lot of work, people are more in awe of anything they can only dream of achieving. Just look at the top 3 members. They have enough points to place in the Top 20 teams, themselves. :slobber:

Raja@ASUS
02-10-2007, 06:43 AM
I admire the top guys for sure, it's just that everyone can't afford ln2, eva's stuff is good. It's hard to promote stuff though if you have big ego's at large, it scares off would be candidates who just want to bench for fun. Though I guess that's how forumla 1 operates, you can't have the go kart boys in with the finely tuned machines.. Just conceptual thinking on may part. The ego's are getting huge and I don't know if promoting that is helping anyone long term.

regards
Raja

Movieman
02-10-2007, 06:59 AM
I admire the top guys for sure, it's just that everyone can't afford ln2, eva's stuff is good. It's hard to promote stuff though if you have big ego's at large, it scares off would be candidates who just want to bench for fun. Though I guess that's how forumla 1 operates, you can't have the go kart boys in with the finely tuned machines.. Just conceptual thinking on may part. The ego's are getting huge and I don't know if promoting that is helping anyone long term.

regards
Raja
I never did any benching in my life till I came to XS. Not that important in what I do except as a check of how a system is operating.
I got into this HWBot deal a little strictly as a way to help the XS team.
To me the pleasure here is in adding what I can in a small way and also sitting back and seeing what some of these incredibly talented people can do.
As to ego's, I've talked with hipro5,Kingpin and OPPAINTER at different times and I never even got the hint of an inflated ego.
Just polite informed responses from all and friendly.
I remember sending an email to kingpin in the summer of 2005. He didn't know me at all. I found his email in a web search and was looking for some info.
The reply I got back was informative and friendly with a feeling that he was glad to help me out.
Tells you a lot about a persons character when they treat a total stranger that way.

I used to race cars(SCCA) and I understand your feeling.
Back then the big guys and the little all worked together.
Granted SCCA isn't Formula1 but there was some big $$ operations going on.
This was mid 70's, the days when Newman and Bob Tullius were big in SCCA.

mrlobber
02-10-2007, 07:56 AM
I have been talking to a lot of people about hwbot, and to date the best concept I have heard, that is impossible to administer would be to separate the cooling sections to air/water/chilled/phase/di and ln2 others. That would create a real battle. Atm, it's so easy to use sub zero and get good averages on points whilst users of air and water with good reults get left for dead, and even though those averages could be increased thru an increase of entries in genre, the initial score mountain altitude is just too high to encourage the competition.

I'd disagree. Just as massman said, impossible to moderate most likely. Consider - air with subzero outside, cold water with pieces of ice for superpi 1M runs - where would you classify that? And voltmodded / not modded hardware - can bring some difference on similar cooling benching as well? And so on, we could continue forever...

And using subzero is not so easy - you need some serious preparation to get better than average results... however, it is pretty cheap - dry-ice, simple brazed containers, so if you want to be close to top, you have to invest there a both your time as well as your money, and that is rewarded with hwboints you earn.

Raja@ASUS
02-10-2007, 08:13 AM
lol trying getting d ice in the uk and ln2 ain't easy.

Enjoy the fun guys that's what this is about, only reason I got involved in the first place.

Raja@ASUS
02-10-2007, 08:56 AM
I'd disagree. Just as massman said, impossible to moderate most likely. Consider - air with subzero outside, cold water with pieces of ice for superpi 1M runs - where would you classify that? And voltmodded / not modded hardware - can bring some difference on similar cooling benching as well? And so on, we could continue forever...




very true, it's the same way that os tweaking and lod levels can't be moderated, you just have to trust that everyone uses honest methods, or you accept that everyone uses the same 'tweaks' thus making the playing field 'fair' again. The whole situation just makes me laugh..

zakelwe
02-11-2007, 03:27 AM
Just thought I'd mention is that my complaint on scoring for the older stuff does not mean I do not appreciate what the hwbot people have done and it is certainly nice to have :toast: , just that it seems that for my older benches it has come too late for my old benches to weighted properly. I do accept massmans comments and see what he means.

Keep up the good work guys.

Regards

Andy

massman
02-11-2007, 04:02 AM
The only way to gain more points with older hardware is to have more users upload their scores.

@ Kunaak: I don't wee why you wouldn't submit your results to hwbot. It's handy to have a profile where all your scores are gathered

eva2000
02-11-2007, 04:41 AM
Well i'm not complaining

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9113/hwbotsubmissions110207bbb2.png

:D

massman
02-11-2007, 04:44 AM
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55665&stc=1&d=1171201435

too much results :D

eva2000
02-11-2007, 04:52 AM
too much results :D
still have a few hardware combinations I have yet to try... not to mention not even owning a 8800GTX yet LOL