How much of a benefit with Petra DDCT-01

[cursivearmy1]

http://www.petrastechshop.com/peddcudeddcp.html
Will it work with the Laing DDC-1 (9W)/Swiftech MCP350 Inline 12vDC Pump
Also, which is the inlet and outlet?
finally how much of a benefit is that?

[Xavior]

http://www.petrastechshop.com/peddcudeddcp.html
Will it work with the Laing DDC-1 (9W)/Swiftech MCP350 Inline 12vDC Pump
Also, which is the inlet and outlet?
finally how much of a benefit is that?

Will work with 9W DDC.. Top is inlet, side is outlet.

And what benefit if there isn't anything to compare it with..

[cursivearmy1]

Stock top?

[ramenchef]

Performs better from the numbers, ie higher flow rate and pressure.

[coolmiester]

http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/alphacool/ddc_both.jpg

I understand Petra has done extensive testing with his DDCT-01 Delrin Top and various DDC Pumps and tops on other forums but i always like to do a bit of "in house" number crunching myself to give a totally unbiased opinion which hopefully will give reference for our forum members so rather than trying to replicate Petra's flow testing to the n'th degree i followed his method best i could but used what was available to me at the time.

Just to clarify a few things before i go on, i used two brand new Laing DDC1-Plus Ultra 18watt pumps and two Laing DDC1-Pro 10watt for testing and all Tops were fitted with EK 1/2" Barbs and 2ft Masterkleer 7/16" hose was used on the inlet and outlet.

a] The Standard Alphacool top was left as standard (http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/alphacool/alphacool_small.jpg)
b] The modded Alphacool top had the inlet drilled out to 11.8mm (http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/alphacool/alphacool_big.jpg) (NOT 10-10.5mm as Petra Used)
c] The Petra top was left as standard

The pumps were ran for 10 minutes to warm up and bed in and then 3 tests were run on each pump / top then to discount any fluctuation in pump performance i swapped tops and ran tests again as i have found in the past identical pumps from the same batch to give slightly different readings but not exactly sure why this would be even though i always use the same 12volt PSU for testing and can only put it down to slightly different tolerances from pump to pump.

My test results for Laing DDC1-Pro 10watt:
Alphacool Standard Plexi Top - 10.22 LPM (2.7 Gal./min.)
Modded Alphacool Plexi Top - 11.45 LPM - (3.02 Gal./min.)
Petras Delrin DDCT-01 Top - 11.12 LPM - (2.94 Gal./min.)

http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/alphacool/petra_10watt.jpg



My test results for Laing DDC1-Plus Ultra 18watt:
Alphacool Standard Plexi Top - 12.6 LPM (3.32 Gal./min.)
Modded Alphacool Plexi Top - 13.8 LPM - (3.65 Gal./min.)
Petras Delrin DDCT-01 Top - 14 LPM - (3.7 Gal./min.)

http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/alphacool/petra_18watt.jpg



As stated previously, i don't profess to being any kind of expert in this field or for that matter having the equipment as they might on other forums but these are my findings from a simple exercise that replicates set-ups used by many people on a day to day basis using a stop watch and a 5ltr container.

[Graystar]

finally how much of a benefit is that?

Despite the charts, my personal opinion is that there is no benefit to aftermarket tops, other than being a nice looking way to have 1/2" barbs. You won't get lower temps.

[serialk11r]

Despite the charts, my personal opinion is that there is no benefit to aftermarket tops, other than being a nice looking way to have 1/2" barbs. You won't get lower temps.
You might get like 2C if you have super low flow I mean like super low. But yea they're not exactly that worth it. They do look pretty good though:rolleyes:

[coolmiester]

Surely the temperatures would greatly depend on whether the blocks in question would benefit from high or low flow??

[serialk11r]

No actually more flow would be better for any block. Just depends on how much will actually yield a benefit. When you take double pumps many say its a waste, because you barely get any better temps, if at all noticable. And you spend extra money, more noise, more electricity, etc. etc.

[coolmiester]

So on that theory the greater the flow the better a block will perform irrespective of which block??

[migueld]

Despite the charts, my personal opinion is that there is no benefit to aftermarket tops, other than being a nice looking way to have 1/2" barbs. You won't get lower temps.

Agreed ++

[ramenchef]

I think it depends on the block. An apogee or fuzion wouldn't benefit as much from the tops, but a storm definitely would since it's a high restriction block. And with a high restriction block, anything else in the loop would suffer from the lower flow. Just my two cents.

[Petra]

Once you get past 1-1.5GPM (depending on the block), the performance gains begin to get very, very tiny. As my testing showed, the aftermarket tops mainly act to make the DDC a slightly better 'all around' pump, rather than just excelling in restrictive loops (thus, providing people with a quieter, slightly better performing alternative to the D5 with less power consumption/heat dump).

If anything, I would have hoped that people, looking at the testing that I did, would have realized that, aside from factors like noise and power consumption, it really doesn't matter so much which of the main 12VDC pumps you choose (provided that you keep things at 1GPM or above).

[Graystar]

Surely the temperatures would greatly depend on whether the blocks in question would benefit from high or low flow??
Yes and no. You are absolutely correct that the CPU temperature will vary depending on how a particular block reacts to varying flow rates.

However, most people have been misled by test results such as the ones at SystemCooling and ProCooling, which show large drops in delta T with increased flow. Such large changes only occur in the artificial testing environment. That is not what happens in a live water-cooling loop. In a real WC loop the actual changes in CPU temperature, that can be attributed solely to block performance as it relates to varying flow, will be extremely small...so small that you likely will be unable to measure it.

[serialk11r]

If you calculate the amount of heat and stuff the extra flow will remove, you'll find how small the differences are. Okay I'm going to get killed again for bringing up theoretical stuff, but I'm sure people all accept that insane flow and "good" flow don't exactly have that huge of an effect on temperatures.

[coolmiester]

And something i've been saying for years - flow rate is overrated in terms of over all temps in real world situations which i'm prepared to back up by running Alphacool DFI Chipset Blocks (don't come more restrictive) 24/7 in a supposedly high flow system yet still gleaning very respectable and stable day to day temps plus if i thought that flow was the be all and end all i wouldn't have even considered masterminding the Danger Den Sli blocks

http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/blk_yel/cf_4.jpg

[Petra]

However, most people have been misled by test results such as the ones at SystemCooling and ProCooling, which show large drops in delta T with increased flow. *snip* so small that you likely will be unable to measure it.
There's nothing misleading about them, if you know what you're looking at... and the main reason why the average user can't accurately detect most of the differences that are found in a controlled test environment is because almost none of the variables are being controlled and they're using uncalibrated equipment that can hardly tell the difference between the vacuum of space and the surface of the sun. :rolleyes:

SystemCooling and ProCooling are the only two tech sites, that I know of, who have ever really attempted to properly evaluate waterblock performance. However, that's only one piece of a much larger puzzle and anyone who happened to read a particular post of my in the [H] would know what I'm talking about.

[ramenchef]

There are also those people who try to eek out every drop of performance possible. :P

[krylon]

There are also those people who try to eek out every drop of performance possible. :P

Exactly. This is XTREME systems. Not "best bang for the buck on my mom's dell" systems. :stick: :toast: :banana:

[Timmay]

Will work with 9W DDC.. Top is inlet, side is outlet.

And what benefit if there isn't anything to compare it with..


You could compair it to the sock pump with out the top :rolleyes:

[serialk11r]

There are also those people who try to eek out every drop of performance possible. :P
You said PERFORMANCE. 0.1C or something isn't going to give you any more MHz, and if you were a crazy person who wanted the last drop, you would be looking at other alternatives to water.

[migueld]

And something i've been saying for years - flow rate is overrated in terms of over all temps in real world situations which i'm prepared to back up by running Alphacool DFI Chipset Blocks (don't come more restrictive) 24/7 in a supposedly high flow system yet still gleaning very respectable and stable day to day temps plus if i thought that flow was the be all and end all i wouldn't have even considered masterminding the Danger Den Sli blocks

http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/blk_yel/cf_4.jpg

Nice shot, got more picts?

[Graystar]

There's nothing misleading about them, if you know what you're looking at...
Well there ya go! ;)


and the main reason why the average user can't accurately detect most of the differences that are found in a controlled test environment is because almost none of the variables are being controlled and they're using uncalibrated equipment that can hardly tell the difference between the vacuum of space and the surface of the sun.
I don’t agree. David D. of Cooling-Masters made this comment when testing the GTS 240 radiator…

“Attention, we do not work at constant dissipated power, but with constant water-air variation, it is different!
(translated by Google)
And THIS is the primary reason why results are different. In the testing procedures of all the trusted testers, such as Lee Garbutt, Bill Adams, and David D, the amount of heat that gets transferred into the water varies throughout the test. In a live WC loop, the amount of heat is always constant even though you may change conditions of the loop, such as changing your D5 from 2 to 5.

Bill Adams recently commented on this very point in another forum. I had suggested that the process of testing at a constant heat transfer rate was actually far more difficult than it sounded, and BillA confirmed my suspicion. And seeing as how currently testing methods, regardless of how artificial and non-representative they are, are perfectly valid as a comparative measure of the equipment being tested, there’s really no reason to change how we do things.

So despite the inaccuracy of the equipment used by the typical water-cooler, I would assert that differences can’t be detected because they’re simply not there.

[coolmiester]

Cheers migueld - its one in a whole bunch of Wavemasters with w/c :cool:

Few more here (http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/blk_yel/cf_1.jpg), here (http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/blk_yel/cf_2.jpg), here (http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/blk_yel/cf_3.jpg) and here (http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/blk_yel/cf_5.jpg)

[IanY]

Exactly. This is XTREME systems. Not "best bang for the buck on my mom's dell" systems. :stick: :toast: :banana:


Then, please explain to me why I repeatedly get flamed.. repeatedly... without fail... for my taste in using an excessive amount of water cooling equipment?

There's like a massive paradox here. Almost everyone believes that a DDC+ with Petra top is a fabulous pump. But when someone suggests running two in series, then the "shown not to be cost effective" flames come shooting out, with people posting links showing that there's not much improvement, blah blah blah.

God forbid I suggest running two Iwakis in series lol :)

The same goes with adding more radiators. "Not necessary" blah blah blah. God forbid I add more than one Thermochill for my cpu, then I become a "moron", an "idiot", a "retard" etc etc etc I have PMs of flames and hatred saved up.

The utmost in controversy is the NB/SB cooling thing. I have people who haven't touched a 680i tell me that the SB on the 680i runs cold. No fans are necessary, let alone a water block. O Rly? Like to come over and touch my SB? I bet Uday Hussein, if he were alive, could use my NB/SB and Vregs on my Striker Extreme as torture devices. It will blister the skin on your finger and leave a red burn mark for 3 days. Been there, done that.

If this is Xtreme Systems, then wouldn't adding more equipment put out more performance, regardless of how small the improvement?

[Graystar]

There's like a massive paradox here. Almost everyone believes that a DDC+ with Petra top is a fabulous pump. But when someone suggests running two in series, then the "shown not to be cost effective" flames come shooting out, with people posting links showing that there's not much improvement, blah blah blah.
Well, I don't know the reasoning that others have, but I would recommend against a second pump not because the gain is small, but because there is no gain at all. Faster flow, in of itself, cannot improve performance.

[nikhsub1]

Then, please explain to me why I repeatedly get flamed.. repeatedly... without fail... for my taste in using an excessive amount of water cooling equipment?
You want the honest answer? Because you care too much. Do what yer gonna do and don't give a rat's ass what anyone says or thinks.

[nikhsub1]

Well, I don't know the reasoning that others have, but I would recommend against a second pump not because the gain is small, but because there is no gain at all. Faster flow, in of itself, cannot improve performance.
I reject this notion. Tell you what, when I get to my office I will run TAT at full load with both pumps, then with just one pump (I'll unplug one pump, I do that for bleeding). We will then have a pretty clear picture as to what is what.

[Graystar]

I reject this notion. Tell you what, when I get to my office I will run TAT at full load with both pumps, then with just one pump (I'll unplug one pump, I do that for bleeding). We will then have a pretty clear picture as to what is what.
Cool. Will be interesting to see the results. I'm actually a bit shocked that you haven't tried this already.

BTW do you have any way of knowing the actual flow rate?

[migueld]

Well, I don't know the reasoning that others have, but I would recommend against a second pump not because the gain is small, but because there is no gain at all. Faster flow, in of itself, cannot improve performance.

Well in theory don't forget that the more flow you have the more turbulence it should generate, and so for blocks like the apogee this is a favorable thing, in theory. In a block like the maze, faster flow does nothing because the channel structure of the block. It's proven that turbulence makes the water absorb heat better, but It'd nice to see real-world results though.

[nikhsub1]

Cool. Will be interesting to see the results. I'm actually a bit shocked that you haven't tried this already.

BTW do you have any way of knowing the actual flow rate?
I don't. I could give a pretty accurate guess though :D What I would say is that dual pumps running should be ~ 50% more flow than with just one (and that unused one being in the loop). If I were to remove the pump from the loop so it doesnt add unnecessary pressure drop we would expect to see ~ 33% improvement in flowrate with 2 pumps vs. 1.

[Graystar]

yeah, but 50% of what? In this case, the absolute rates are important if they drop down into the 0.25 GPM range (which I seriously doubt they would, but still...)

[migueld]

Cheers migueld - its one in a whole bunch of Wavemasters with w/c :cool:

Few more here (http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/blk_yel/cf_1.jpg), here (http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/blk_yel/cf_2.jpg), here (http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/blk_yel/cf_3.jpg) and here (http://www.coolercases.co.uk/images/blk_yel/cf_5.jpg)

That yellow coolant looks heavenly :)

[IanY]

You want the honest answer? Because you care too much. Do what yer gonna do and don't give a rat's ass what anyone says or thinks.


Oh yeah baby. :) Who says I don't end up doing what I want to do ? :D :woot: The Iwakis are being set up.. and remember how many loops I have lol

[Graystar]

Well in theory don't forget that the more flow you have the more turbulence it should generate,
Nah. Turbulence doesn't factor into it that much.

[ramenchef]

Hmm, this test will be quite interesting to see if 2 pumps in series really does help.

[serialk11r]

Well in theory don't forget that the more flow you have the more turbulence it should generate, and so for blocks like the apogee this is a favorable thing, in theory. In a block like the maze, faster flow does nothing because the channel structure of the block. It's proven that turbulence makes the water absorb heat better, but It'd nice to see real-world results though.
Its not just turbulence that removes heat LOL. Flow removes more heat too. So by your theory, if you had a block with a line cut through it, flow would not make a difference?

[cursivearmy1]

All I wanted to do was create one simple thread. Not a war:)
Anyways yeah I'm just looking on how I can get better performance out of my pump. Plus it looks mucho sexier.
Might as well use my thread to ask some things
I have a Black Ice Pro 120 right now.
I don't get the best temps this is just hooked up to a MCW6002 CPU block.
What I want to cool is my CPU and my GFX.
So my question to you guys is,

Do I really need a 360 for this or can I go 240 because the back of my case has 2x120mm fan mounts.
What is the best solution for 8800 cards?
Are 3 barb waterblocks any good?
Is my current pump as stated in this thread adequate?

[serialk11r]

Nah, don't worry about the 360, thats just a waste. 240 is good enough. Well I think you would need a bigger one for the 8800 plus the cpu.

[Capt Proton]

Maybe I'm too simplistic, but, when I speed up my pump, my temps go down. When I slow down my pump, my temps go up. Doesn't that mean flow rate affects temps?

[serialk11r]

Maybe I'm too simplistic, but, when I speed up my pump, my temps go down. When I slow down my pump, my temps go up. Doesn't that mean flow rate affects temps?
Flow rate does affect temps, but at a certain degree, you stop seeing noticable effects.

[ramenchef]

Only up to a point. I believe it's up to 1gpm flowrate where anything past that gets severely diminishing returns.

[Graystar]

No test results yet?

[Polizei]

Exactly. This is XTREME systems. Not "best bang for the buck on my mom's dell" systems. :stick: :toast: :banana:

rofl

[Graystar]

:confused:

[buffbiff21]

dude that thing is powerful, i can attest. I have the one from petras, it is more subtle and not as flashy...

EDIT MY INCOMPLETE POST:

... as the Alphacool one. I plan on getting two of them in series

[Bun-Bun]

I reject this notion. Tell you what, when I get to my office I will run TAT at full load with both pumps, then with just one pump (I'll unplug one pump, I do that for bleeding). We will then have a pretty clear picture as to what is what.

Thank you!!! please post these results... there have been many debates between me and graystar about this... please put this to rest.

BTW I am getting two DDC+ with petra's top for a single WB loop... depending on my tube routing though the second one might end up sitting on the shelf as a backup.

[migueld]

Maybe he isn't posting because the results might confirm our suspicions on the diminishing returns of higher-flow? :rolleyes:

[buffbiff21]

I trust FCG more than all of you. http://www.thetechrepository.com/showthread.php?t=54
I think two Petras top 355 pumps would dominate...

I will do some tests of my own, once I get my second pump - if you guys care to listen to a guy with a post count of below 30. :p:

[QuietIce]

I trust FCG more than all of you. http://www.thetechrepository.com/showthread.php?t=54
I think two Petras top 355 pumps would dominate...

I will do some tests of my own, once I get my second pump - if you guys care to listen to a guy with a post count of below 30. :p: Thanks for the link ...! :)

[Graystar]

Tell you what, when I get to my office I will run TAT at full load with both pumps, then with just one pump (I'll unplug one pump, I do that for bleeding). We will then have a pretty clear picture as to what is what.
Any test results yet? Inquiring minds want to know! :scope:

[Zeus]

Nah, don't worry about the 360, thats just a waste. 240 is good enough. Well I think you would need a bigger one for the 8800 plus the cpu.

Where on earth did you get that from??

My PA120.2 with 4 YateLoons is on it's knees with my Conroe @ just 1.42V.

Watertemps rise steadily with just the CPU under load (TAT), imagine what happens if the GPU would be running 3D full throttle as well... :explode:

[Aldy402]

wait so just to confirm

the top is the INLET and side is the DISCHARGE?
I thought it would be like the MCP655, the top is the discharge and the side is the discharge..

[Bun-Bun]

wait so just to confirm

the top is the INLET and side is the DISCHARGE?
I thought it would be like the MCP655, the top is the discharge and the side is the discharge..

yes it is the reverse of the MCP655 when using a aftermarket top. The top is the inlet and the side is the discharge.

[ShaneS]

Once you get past 1-1.5GPM (depending on the block), the performance gains begin to get very, very tiny. As my testing showed, the aftermarket tops mainly act to make the DDC a slightly better 'all around' pump, rather than just excelling in restrictive loops (thus, providing people with a quieter, slightly better performing alternative to the D5 with less power consumption/heat dump).

If anything, I would have hoped that people, looking at the testing that I did, would have realized that, aside from factors like noise and power consumption, it really doesn't matter so much which of the main 12VDC pumps you choose (provided that you keep things at 1GPM or above).


I like your modded pump because it's about 50% smaller than the D5, and even if the performance increase isn't that noticable.....it's still smaller and better performing.

[Xavior]

wait so just to confirm

the top is the INLET and side is the DISCHARGE?
I thought it would be like the MCP655, the top is the discharge and the side is the discharge..

That depends on how the pump is designed and how the impeller is orientated. Both are centrifugal pumps. The impeller in the MCP355 is placed horizontally, and the impeller in the MCP655 is placed vertically. Putting a MCP355 on its side does pretty much the same.

[Graystar]

I guess we'll never know the answer to the test results...

:(

[QuietIce]

I was kinda' looking forward to them too ... :poke:

[[cTx] Nooc]

Then, please explain to me why I repeatedly get flamed.. repeatedly... without fail... for my taste in using an excessive amount of water cooling equipment?

There's like a massive paradox here. Almost everyone believes that a DDC+ with Petra top is a fabulous pump. But when someone suggests running two in series, then the "shown not to be cost effective" flames come shooting out, with people posting links showing that there's not much improvement, blah blah blah.

God forbid I suggest running two Iwakis in series lol :)...

if you are going to run two ddc+/petra's top and two termochill rads, at that point I'm considering a used Mach II GT unit from ebay, not water cooling. but I agree with most of your rant. If I'd have the money (and everyone else), I'd also run a separate loop to WC my 4 raptors in raid 0. Phase change my memory modules? sure. a separate loop for my SB, including a triple thermochill rad and two pumps? go ahead. About them bridges...people don't realize how hot those get in new chipsets:fact: