View Full Version : Oh dear what have i done!!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/corsapete/IMG_0240.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/corsapete/IMG_0242.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/corsapete/IMG_0244.jpg
Danger Den RBX and Maze 4 bases. Have lost there high shine after a few days in soak with Wite Vinegar with a 1/4 of a tea spoon of salt added to them....what have i done
Pete
rbd89
02-05-2007, 01:26 PM
Well the vinegar you are soaking them in is blue so that may be a place to start? Try soaking them in a clean bowl of vinegar and apply some ketchup first. That should get the shine back.
james111
02-05-2007, 01:27 PM
Polish them up?
ShaneS
02-05-2007, 01:28 PM
Why is your vinager blue?
You are soaking the copper portion with the o-rings? I thought you were supposed to soak ONLY the copper portion?
You added salt?! Its called galvanic corrosion.
Timmay
02-05-2007, 01:31 PM
lol
Was borded and needed to get them cleaned badly as they where black but shiny. So soaking them in a clean bowl of vinegar and apply some ketchup first for say 15 mins all over before i put them in will get them back and no salt this time just in my rad as i was told?
Vapor
02-05-2007, 01:33 PM
The blue is Cu+ ions....rinse and repeat without the salt....or just use ketchup.
and left them for FEW days
Yeah misis fell i'll so had to take her to hospital and then my daughter is in hosital already and i got tied up...meh. Going to boil them up in hot water to get the o-ring out i hope then will re do them in pure white vinegar only..how long for?
The Russians have already figured out that Acetic Acid (aka Vinegar) and copper *do not mix* and corrode their power plant equipment.
First of all, I like to congratulate the joker who came up with the idea of flushing radiators with vinegar. Next I like to present the Nobel prize to the other genius who created the concept of using salt.
http://www.iapws.jp/Proceedings/Symposium11/643Petrova.pdf
First of all, I like to congratulate the joker who came up with the idea of flushing radiators with vinegar. Next I like to present the Nobel prize to the other genius who created the concept of using salt.
http://www.iapws.jp/Proceedings/Symposium11/643Petrova.pdf
a sentence that if true may flush away all of the w/cing stickies all over the hardware forums
a sentence that if true may flush away all of the w/cing stickies all over the hardware forums
Really don't mean to be an @$$hole here. I am not gloating. Just presenting what I know, which is that I don't follow what any sticky says without thinking through matters first.
My true empathies to you, Pete. I am sure whatever that is on the blocks can be easily reversed.
I boiled them after a rinse under hot tap. Got the orings out now and have put them back in to soak in fresh stuff. Will check befor i got bed and in the moring, if all fail shot blasting then a lap of the base, rbx i wanted to make thinner anyways
MaxxxRacer
02-05-2007, 02:03 PM
wow... thats pretty hardcore.. ive soaked a TDX for a while in vinegar (8hrs) and didnt even get the faintest blue color.
but from my chem 101 classes I can see that you have ALOT of copper ions in the vinegar.
IanY, first off let me say that It wasnt MY idea to use vinegar.. Granted I have played a huge role in the use of it throughout the watercooling world, it wasn't me who came up with the idea.
I had done some research on it too, and found that 5% acetic acid would be ok with copper.. I even asked a few chemists.. But clearly I underestimated the strenght of it.
That said, what yould your reccomendation be for cleaning waterblocks/radiators. I saw in a previous thread that you clean out your rad by putting it in a small loop with a pump+filter.
In any case I will be updating the guides to eliminate the use of acetic acid as we have clearly found that it will corrode copper given enough time.
Pete I would suggest that you REMOVE the O-rings.. Who knows what acetic acid will do to them.
Allsorts
02-05-2007, 02:10 PM
Sorry to hear that dude. Acetic acid reacts with copper to give copper acetate which would explain the blue colour. The salt you added probably catalyzed this reaction. I'll be cleaning my blocks and rad much quicker from now on!
How bad is the corrosion on your blocks? If it's only cosmetic then you might be able to polish it out with Brasso or something. If it's pitted then you probably need to lap.
I have took them off and put the blocks back into a new soak over night till the morning or when i decied to get up and will see whats going on....rather anyoed i forgot them but glad i showed soemthin...cool blue mind! If this doesn;t sort it then a light shot blast and then lapping of the base to get it back to new as i wnated to think the bas on the rbx loads more
IanY, first off let me say that It wasnt MY idea to use vinegar.. Granted I have played a huge role in the use of it throughout the watercooling world, it wasn't me who came up with the idea.
That said, what yould your reccomendation be for cleaning waterblocks/radiators. I saw in a previous thread that you clean out your rad by putting it in a small loop with a pump+filter.
MaxxxRacer,
No, I wasn't insinuating that you came up with the idea of using vinegar. Obviously no one here came up with the idea of using salt either.
I've heard about the vinegar bit for a long time, for many years, and probably pre-dates Xtremesystems. I'm just way too old :)
Like I said, I'm no water coooling expert but I have made my fair share of mistakes and learnt my fair share of lessons.
I take the radiator to the sink initally and outright flush with running water. Sometimes I use distilled for my high end stuff. For the regular stuff, I just use bottled water (yes, I know, I know). Its wasteful but it works for an initial flush. Then I hook up a very simple loop. Pump to rad, rad to in-line filter, and then filter to pump. Let it run for 1/2 day. Drain. Repeat.
It wasn't until two months ago that I came to this forum that I learnt about the Pentek in-line filter from McMaster Carr. Before that, I used stupid clean containers, submergable Enheim pumps and coffee filters. Very ghetto, but it worked.
Like I said, I'm no expert. I just try out stuff for myself. Sometimes I'm lazy with the cheaper/low end systems, but I'm always anal about my flagship computer.
Once again, I am not saying definitively that vinegar is bad. I'm not qualified for that. It just appears that vinegar is bad news, and that I avoid vinegar. That's all.
Once more, I am not gloating. This gives me no joy. Quite to the contrary, Pete's predicament somehow gets me upset.
Salt? Someone in some forum somewhere from long ago actually came up with the idea of mixing salt with vinegar.. and thus misleading Pete. Salt... man..
For everyone else, MaxxxRacer was referring to the ongoing conversation here, where I started opening my big mouth:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=132182&page=2
generics_user
02-05-2007, 02:23 PM
alphacool has something which works perfectly, i use it instead of vinegar and it works perfectly.
linky (http://www.alphacool.de/product_info.php/language/en/products_id/1189/cPath/5_54_57/wasserzusaetze/wakz-reinigungsmittel-sysclean-hpd-50ml.html)
just let it in your rad for an hour, flush it with distilled water, repeat 3-4 times, best stuff to clean your sys ;)
UnreaL
02-05-2007, 03:21 PM
The other problem is that Pete has left the rubber seals on his blocks in the acid! You most certainly will have damaged the seals.
Regarding the vingear solution, I think its seems an acceptable solution to the problem..
But the salt, that I am not sure about. I do remember it being shouted about here though.
And also out of interest, how does the ketchup work if acetic acid doesn't? Ketchup just contains acetic acid too...
Hassan
02-05-2007, 03:24 PM
salt and vinegar is only good for potato chips :slobber: , vinegar and ketchup for fries :D
BTW I've forgotten components in vinegar for 5+ days, including an RBX, and it turned the vinegar the slightest hue of blue... the salt definitely catalyzed this reaction.
seals are fine, took them off, cleaned them up and not a mark or anyhting odd about them at all though if i can i'll replace to be safe but there not harmed in any way at all...just hope they clean up the block. off to be so see you all on the flip side
serialk11r
02-05-2007, 03:33 PM
OMFG!!! Where did you get the idea of throwing your shiny blocks into something like that??????
SiGfever
02-05-2007, 03:38 PM
With the chemicals left over from rad manufacturing the mild acid (vinegar) solution that we use does serve a purpose. It takes a slight acid bath to remove the impurities. I would never leave vinegar in the rad for days but a couple 6-8 hour soaking sessions does flush the impurities. Then a VERY good flush with distilled water and everything should be fine. Just my $.015
I too ran the Pentek filter for four days to finalize the cleaning process.
serialk11r
02-05-2007, 03:43 PM
No, don't even try that long. 1 hour should be more than enough. I threw ketchup onto a bar of copper to see if it really cleans it up, and after just 30 minutes, I saw results. It was shinier than you could ask for. Of course you need to wash it off or else all the crap in the ketchup would make it unshiny and black...
MaxxxRacer
02-05-2007, 03:48 PM
alphacool has something which works perfectly, i use it instead of vinegar and it works perfectly.
linky (http://www.alphacool.de/product_info.php/language/en/products_id/1189/cPath/5_54_57/wasserzusaetze/wakz-reinigungsmittel-sysclean-hpd-50ml.html)
just let it in your rad for an hour, flush it with distilled water, repeat 3-4 times, best stuff to clean your sys ;)
Thats just a different type of acid.. they dont say it directly but that acid will slowly disolve the copper just as acetic acid will. You will notice it says that its safe with stainles steel but doesnt really specifically mention anything else.
But the salt, that I am not sure about. I do remember it being shouted about here though.
And also out of interest, how does the ketchup work if acetic acid doesn't? Ketchup just contains acetic acid too...
Salt acts as a catalyst for the copper + acetic acid reaction. Dont ask me for the forumla as I cant stand writting chem formulas, but in short it speeds up the process alot.
Ketchup has both acetic acid and salt.. Infact heinz has a butt load of salt it in, which really speeds up the cleaning process. you wont notice your blocks turning blue with ketchup merely because the ketchup is red not blue.. but rest assured with enough ketchup and time you will do the same exact thing to your block as Pete did with the vinegar+salt.
ziddey
02-05-2007, 04:21 PM
Vinegar does have characteristics to help clean off the excess flux and whatnot. It also serves to help remove any layer of copper oxide that may have developed, allowing for better heat exchange (since oxides of copper don't conduct as well as pure copper). However, as everyone has noticed, vinegar is not to be used for long terms, since it continually eats away. No doubt the salt catalyzed the reaction, which shows why you see so much copper ions in your solution. Vinegar is still a viable agent to use, but it should only be used for brief periods. Also, it should be immediately followed with water / alcohol to ensure that it's removed from the system. Exposure of the remnant vinegar with air will again result in oxidation, which we were trying to avoid in the first place.
Allsorts
02-05-2007, 04:26 PM
alphacool has something which works perfectly, i use it instead of vinegar and it works perfectly.
linky (http://www.alphacool.de/product_info.php/language/en/products_id/1189/cPath/5_54_57/wasserzusaetze/wakz-reinigungsmittel-sysclean-hpd-50ml.html)
just let it in your rad for an hour, flush it with distilled water, repeat 3-4 times, best stuff to clean your sys ;)
That's some really nasty stuff! :eek: "Dangerous ingredients: Amido-sulfonic acid 10-25%" (http://www.alphacool.de/product_info.php/language/en/products_id/1189/cPath/5_54_57/wasserzusaetze/wakz-reinigungsmittel-sysclean-hpd-50ml.html)
A 1% amido-sulfonic acid (aka sulfamic acid) solution has a pH of 1.18 (http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/S7586.htm) so goodness knows what the pH of the 10-25% product is!
And people here are scared about using vinegar! :D
serialk11r
02-05-2007, 05:08 PM
pH of 10% should be close to 0 lol.
Nephilim
02-05-2007, 05:29 PM
seals are fine, took them off, cleaned them up and not a mark or anyhting odd about them at all though if i can i'll replace to be safe but there not harmed in any way at all...just hope they clean up the block. off to be so see you all on the flip side
Nothing easily available dissolves Silicone :) Naphtha weakens it *slightly* but vinegar should have no effect what so ever.
Frank M
02-05-2007, 05:42 PM
(Etil-) alcohol instead?
Good solvant, less harmful.
Bloody_Sorcerer
02-05-2007, 06:17 PM
the salt throws the entire system into who knows what; when it was presented to my grandpa, who got his Ph.D in chemistry (though he's now long since retired), he had trouble explaining what the heck was really going on.
scwam
02-05-2007, 08:16 PM
salt and vinegar is only good for potato chips :slobber: , vinegar and ketchup for fries :D
BTW I've forgotten components in vinegar for 5+ days, including an RBX, and it turned the vinegar the slightest hue of blue... the salt definitely catalyzed this reaction.
Yeah, I never understood why people insist on putting salt into the vingar. Makes no sense to me unless you want and corroded/abraded block.
I mean, arn't brine washes used in chemistry to remove some heavy metals?
MrToad
02-06-2007, 12:46 AM
I personally have used white vinegar to clean both the rads and the blocks.
The rads had plenty of particles and "black stuff" inside (very technical this definition), and the DD blocks had brown stains (oxide?) in between the channels. Now they are nice and shiny.
What I did not do is: Let them soak in vinegar for hours, exposed to heat and air.
I am no chemist myself, but common sense tells me that air and heat are both catalysts of many reactions.
Unfortunaltely I know no better, before the whole vinegar thing I tried to find specific products to clean radiators, but all the ones I found had complicated chemical structures and they needed to be applied with the circuit hot and flowing (no wonder as they were designed for car radiators).
As I didn't know how this products would affect my pump and tubing, which I understand are quite different to those used in cars, I didn't want to risk it.
An alternative to chemicals is using ultrasound cleaners, but the ones that could fit a radiator inside cost a little fortune.
Well they been in over night and have not changed in color....sucks. Gonna lap the RBX base today anyway
Marci
02-06-2007, 02:17 AM
Changed to what? Puppies?? or should that read HAVEN'T changed??
They are still orange......what can i do guys. It's reall rough all over. Im pretty anyoned at this
Think a light shot blasting is needed....what about clostic soda???
Caustic Soda ?! Is it your objective to kill the blocks ? The only thing you can do right now is try to shine the blocks... ironically with ketchup.. which is... vinegar and salt.
Marci
02-06-2007, 04:01 AM
No. Definitely not. http://www.dow.com/productsafety/finder/caustic.htm
Fairydust
02-06-2007, 04:15 AM
HC2H3O2 + NaCl ---> HCl + CH3CO2Na, salt + vinegar will turn into hydrochloric acid and sodium acetate. I guess if you regularly change the solution you can manage to make the coolers disapear :P
Well i can only lap the bases the guts can;t be touched, i tired over night fresh white vinegar nothing happened, tried ketchup for an hour nowt. Shot blasting seams only way then lapping the bash up.
Might be able to do media blasting as thats les sharsh on them
Marci
02-06-2007, 04:21 AM
Any form of blasting will just make the surface even worse... just leave them as they are, rinse thoroughly with distilled water, lap and clean up the base. If looks mean that much, buy new blocks, and don't clean them with anything. Just remove any residue of the base with isopropynol and use them.
I haven;'t seen the bases for sale anywhere not even your shop but your site is confusing anyway. If i can get new bases Maze 4 and RBX cheap then i will do so!
Marci
02-06-2007, 05:00 AM
The bases aren't available to purchase separately... full block, or top only are the choices if buying brand new.
Sorry you appear to be confused by our site... if it's a DangerDen CPU Block, then anything to do with it is on the DangerDen CPU Blocks page (http://store.over-clock.com/CPU_Blocks.html)... *shrug*
Wow for old block you charge a lot there!!! I'm gonna have a play with these some more, might try a wire bursh on my drill to get the stuff off all over then lap the bases up loads
Marci
02-06-2007, 05:30 AM
Old means nothing - it's still DangerDen's current block for low-flow setups, and we still receive orders for them - that isn't old stock... it's still current stock that we restock whenever we order from DangerDen. If you're wanting old Clearance Stock etc, check forsale sections of forums and suchlike. Think you'll find we're charging the cheapest price in Europe for brand new Maze4 CPU Blocks... elsewhere are £5 more expensive.
Okay i've used the wire brush wheel on my drill and got them cleaned looking like cooper again. Wheel was battered so hope it hasn;t pitted them too much be i was going to lap them both anyway. I've put then back in a fresh bowl or white vinegar and how long should i leave them for or should i use ketchup and how long for?
Okay they been soaking for 20min, took them out and washed them off under hot tap! Then i lapped the base of the rbx with a medum sand paper a si wanted to make the base loads thinner. Paper has on the back 80/M2 what ever that is. Was cheap stuff and broke up fast and lots of grit came off as well as copper. Have now smoether them in Hinez red sauce to see what they do....say give them 20 mins or longer? Will then start lapping from 400 to 2500 tormrow probs o duno
wdrzal
02-28-2007, 02:01 AM
I got Barbecue sauce,steak sauce and salad dressings if you want to try those.:nuts:
epion2985
02-28-2007, 02:30 AM
Okay i've used the wire brush wheel on my drill and got them cleaned looking like cooper again.
That probably damaged the flatness pretty badly. You can lap with sand paper and get them pretty shiny but I don't think they will ever be as flat as they were before. I'd buy a new one :(
I used the wire drill bit all over and it'c copper again whoo. Just got to lap the base, i did 80 grit for 20 min then started at 400, 600, 800, i've stoped for now as i have a sliver RBX now and going to get a few other bits then sending them off to be lapped