!!! Updating the Watercooling Guide !!! Everyone Please Take a Look

[MaxxxRacer]

Since I havnt been around too much I havn't been able to keep up with the latest info on watercooling. Despite my abscence I would like to keep the watercooling guides as up to date as possible, so I would like anyone and everyone to make suggestions as to what they would like to see added/removed or modified in the guide.

And of course, any information added to the guide via this thread will be given the proper credit it deserves via an annotation in the guide and a special thanks listing at the end of the guide just like the Stores Guide has.

Futhermore, if anyone has anything they would like added/removed/modified in any other of my guides feel free to speak up.

Lastly, if you have any questions that you feel should be answered by the guide, but are not, just post them here and I will add them to the guide in a FAQ based format. Credit goes to our member hoax for the suggestion

Thankyou in advance to anyone who contributes.

[hoax]

I am very new to all this but your guide has answered so many questions I had about WC. The pics weren't working when I first got here, so it was a bit harder to research each part. Fixing those links would already make a huge difference.

And as a total noob...I think you could add a very quick FAQ on the end of it to avoid questions that we noobs keep asking...

I would be glad to post a few of this questions (most of which I was recently unsure about) if you think that would be helpfull...

probably not what you had in mind, but just a suggestion from a true noob...

Anyway...Thanks again for making the best WC guide I ever seen..and for keeping it up to date. :thumbsup: :fact:

[MaxxxRacer]

Please do post all of those questions. The guide is designed to end the n00b questions by answering them before they are asked, but for every question I answer in the guide it seems that 10 new ones come up, so having those questions will be very helpful..

I updated the first post ;)

And if you live in Sao Paulo (50/50 chance that you do) make sure to go to the F1 race next weekend. It's Michael Schumacers (I cant spell) last race where he fights fernando alonso for the championship.

[marauder16]

Maybe if you modified a little bit the 'Coolants' section, maybe clear it up a bit because apparently for some people it's not clear enough cause I see all the time threads popping out about coolants, people are still not sure what is best at this part...
Anything else seems to be up to date (I see you updated all the guys today :D ).
And also I just saw that, of course IMHO, the order of GPU blocks and Rads where you list them may send a wrong message, I mean the BIPs first and PAs on the third place, people might think the BIPs are better, also for the MCW60, it is in the performance range with Maze 4, but is on the 5th place, I don't think that's right, but that's just my .02
And congrats on such great guides, really great job on all three of them! :toast: :clap: :woot:



And if you live in Sao Paulo (50/50 chance that you do) make sure to go to the F1 race next weekend. It's Michael Schumacers (I cant spell) last race where he fights fernando alonso for the championship. - can't wait for that one, I hope Alonso now loses his engine, but he's too lucky for that... I want 'Schumacher' ;) to win, but it seems impossible since the last race...
And the next season will be the best IMO, Raikkonen (now I can't spell it :P ) in Ferrari, a dream come true!
End of OT.

[MaxxxRacer]

marauder16, any ideas on how to clear up the coolant section? I will be adding info on Pentiosin soon ( doing some research right now), but I'm not quite sure how to make it more clear without directly saying "use this or die scumbag"

OT - here is the thing about Sao Palo.. Alonso is 10 points ahead.. that means that 'Schumacher' has to get first to tie assuming that Alonso gets 9th or worse, which has never happend this year. Now if 'Schumacher' gets first he gets 10 points and then they are tied. The way that F1 rules work, if there is a tie then it goes down to who has placed the best in the races for that year. Currently Alonso and 'Schumacher' are tied at 7 a piece. 2nd place Alonso has 6 and 'Schumacher' 4 IIRC. So with that said, if 'Schumacher' wins it and Alonso DNF's or gets 9th or worse, 'Schumacher' will win the championship based on the fact that he will now have 8 1st place finishes. 8th or better for Alonso and it doesnt matter of 'Schumacher' dances on his head, the title goes to Alonso.

With all of that said, I dont think Alonso will place worse than 5th based purely on stats. he has had 7 wins, 6 2nd places two 5th places and 2 DNF's which says to me that if he doesnt crash and his engine does blow he will most likely get 2nd place assuming he doesnt win the race outright. My theory is that 'Schumacher' will take first with Alonso right on his ass the whole way. If that is the case it should be one hell of a race that will be remembered for a very long time.

[hoax]

Hello Max,

Thanks a lot for the warm reply. (about the OT... I do live in SP but I dont have tickets for the race..and they are pretty much sold out..should be a nice race indeed...doubt that alonso will lose this title tho..)

but...back on topic..I did a quick research on some of the most popular questions I see around the forums.. these are only a starting point.. I am sure others can make more suggestions that you could also add.

Since I don't have enough knowledge to answer them alone, and I didnt want to give you more work, I thought we could use some "highlights" from answers already given by the more experienced forum users (with credit for everyone)

if this is not what you had in mind, go ahead and edit it as you please...I am just trying to give you ideas:

(if anybody doesnt want to get quoted on this FAQ please let me know so I can remove it, and sorry for doing it without asking first)





==================================================
Xtreme Systems Begginers F.A.Q.
==================================================

(EDITED - NEW VERSION - Moved to new reply)



its really late now so I will post more tomorrow if I think of any...but I hope this helps us get it started.

cheers
hoax

hoax

[Marci]

02) I was wondering what the experts thought would make the best coolant?

1 drop of Spectrus (biocide) + 1 drop of Continuum (corrosion inhibitor) + 1.5oz glycerine (raises water's thermal conductivity co-efficient) to a litre of distilled water according to Hound53. If you can't get that, then Zerex at 5%.

[septim]

as an update to your watercooling stores list, pls add Ek waterblocks store...

[hoax]

1 drop of Spectrus (biocide) + 1 drop of Continuum (corrosion inhibitor) + 1.5oz glycerine (raises water's thermal conductivity co-efficient) to a litre of distilled water according to Hound53. If you can't get that, then Zerex at 5%.

thanks a lot Marci. I edited it ..sorry for not quoting you properly :toast:

[nealh]

Hey Marci..any thoughts on Pentosin G12?

[Marci]

Nope - not been able to source any in UK.

[nealh]

I think adding a section on what metal barbs fit safely on a given cpu and gpu block is worthwhile

I know some blocks have metal barbs but the Storm rev2 and MCW use those "awful" plastic barbs

[Marci]

thanks a lot Marci. I edited it ..sorry for not quoting you properly

You quoted me perfectly d00d - I never said the above publicly - I'm passing on info given to me by Hound53 via PM that has never been posted publicly on this forum that I'm aware...

[nealh]

Nope - not been able to source any in UK.
Thanks for the follow up

[vyper]

Max, I know we pm'd about this but maybe add something about removing the water filter once the one week period is up?

Here's my experience. It's a regular pita.

I placed my filter in between the rad and the cpu block as recommended. When it came time to remove it, I placed the filter lower than both of those to let gravity do the work and opened up the canister which helped to drain both the rad->tube and the filter->cpu tube somewhat.

Then I cut the cpu->filter tube to the correct length to fit onto the rad barb and fit it.

Sounds easy, but I got water spilling everywhere and ended up topping my loop up with a lot of unfiltered water, which kinds of voids the point of using a filter in the first place.

Somethings to note: do not use the water in the filter canister to resupply your loop! This stuff is full of crap taken out by your filter. I found all sorts of residue and even a small strand of teflon tape in there!

Max recommended using clamps when removing the filter which also sounds like a good idea but I couldn't get my hands on any.

I guess the point is to take it slowly, and carefully.

[septim]

isn't it if you're gonna open your loop do it with the break/cut at the highest point of you loop so that water won't come out?

[Bad213Boy]

fittings would be a good section. some may not know what threading is needed. i aways thought it'd be good to rank the quality all the products, as long as someone has the time to keep updated. maybe even a section on peltiers. ohh and one thing i found very very usefull, the dengerden videos for installing WCing. id like to see more people making videos for modding or installing different products.

[eXa]

fittings. hm maybe i can make a list of all the waterblocks with threadtype together with a list of fittings?

[Sparky]

fittings. hm maybe i can make a list of all the waterblocks with threadtype together with a list of fittings?
I like the sound of that. I know I will not want the plastic barbs but I don't really know much about what fitting fits what (I do know that I want the hi-flow ones but that is about it).

[GMX]

OT: F1. Now I've been following every season since 1997. None as closely as 2005 and 2006 though. What Ferrari needs to do is make up there mind if they want the drivers' or teams' champinship. Revert to old school tactics (flashback to late 80s, early to mid 90s), Massa give Alonso DNF. The Renault engine won't blow, they ran full revs in Monza (85% of the time spent at 100% throttle track) only died at lap 44. Thats about 265km. But the sad thing is, MS already gave in after Suzuka.

I plan to go to Albert Park 2007 and watch Kimi dominate :)


As for WC. I think you should introduce combinations. I've been stuck in this myself. usually someone will go overkill (or under) on a rad or pump. Plus where do u get non plastic resevoirs that preferably ship international.

[[XC] leviathan18]

i could safily say petras is the best shop if you want to buy outside usa... for real

[thunderstruck!]

but I'm not quite sure how to make it more clear without directly saying "use this or die scumbag"

LMAO...great post!

[eXa]

yeah! lol!

well ill get started on my list then....

[Sparky]

marauder16, any ideas on how to clear up the coolant section? I will be adding info on Pentiosin soon ( doing some research right now), but I'm not quite sure how to make it more clear without directly saying "use this or die scumbag"
does the pentiosin come in UV green? I like green over blue (everyone has blue anyway, I want something different) so I was looking at hydrX but I've heard that it can clog stuff up. I only see blue and red pentiosin at petra's so that is why I'm asking.

[marauder16]

marauder16, any ideas on how to clear up the coolant section? I will be adding info on Pentiosin soon ( doing some research right now), but I'm not quite sure how to make it more clear without directly saying "use this or die scumbag"
I just scanned through that section, and I think it would be the best to ad a list of coolants (like Zerex first, then Pentosin second etc.) to your components guide, this will make to 'use this or die scumbag' :D . Cause I think people are too lazy to read through the entire leak testing guide (I did read it twice completely so I am quite sure of what's the best) so they just check the components guide and start asking questions about what's not in it: coolants, fittings, etc.
Basically, you made your explaining 'clear' enough but I don't think people read it, so it's not your fault, and I think I didn't use the right word when I said you had to make them more clear, but to stop them from opening more 'already answered' topics I suggest you do what I said above.
And btw. I like the fittings idea, I had a hard time of learning the difference between G1/4' 'and NPSM 1/4'' (or whatever it is called) :rolleyes:
Hope I helped... :)

EDIT: I just checked the FAQ by hoax, and questions like 'I was wondering what the experts thought would make the best coolant?' prove that people would ask a question and have the answer come to them, rather than searching for it in the big(est) leak testing guide, that's just how they do, so we either need a FAQ or a guide like your components guide in which we have a list of top five of each group of W.C. parts where there is no dilemma of which is the best, you have it all in one place and no need for reading like whole pages in search for an answer...

[Dragoon42]

I just setup my first custom WC setup and I kept going back to your guide 1000x. I pretty much think everything is clear and pretty easy to understand. The only time I posted a question was about the T-Line.

In your parts section you list all the stuff for 3/8" and 1/2". Maybe if you just seperated the parts to 3/8" setup and 1/2" setup instead of all jumbled in one.

The guide saved me a lot of time though :) THANKS!!

As far the coolant section goes, I just assumed that zerex would keep things from growing and help lower the temps a bit. The coolant section was pretty straightforward

[Petra]

1 drop of Spectrus (biocide) + 1 drop of Continuum (corrosion inhibitor) + 1.5oz glycerine (raises water's thermal conductivity co-efficient) to a litre of distilled water according to Hound53. If you can't get that, then Zerex at 5%.
Hound53 is going to be mixing up some Continuum and sending it to us; however, the mix will not include Spectrus as he feels it's too hazardous to be working with... So, we're going to have to figure something else out, as far as biocide goes. Anyway, the nice thing about this stuff is that a tiny bit goes a long way (e.g. the final mix results in a concentration of about 56 ppm Continuum) and, at his request, we'll be donating a portion of sales ($1/botle sold) to the local SPCA.

Whee, I get to mix chemical :banana::banana::banana::banana:tails for you guys... :rolleyes: ;)

[Kayin]

I've used a few drops of bleach (drops only, nothing more) as a biocide. Never hurt anything as far as I can tell...

Any interest in how to run methanol/acetone as a coolant without killing stuff? I did it before to reduce weight (Methanol weighs 60% of what water does) after a car accident permanently screwed up my left arm, learned lots of stuff the hard way...

As far as tubing, you can also use clear polyvinyl/polybutyl, if you can find it, and for those using 1/4 or 6/8mm, vinyl in those sizes is more than acceptable (used it in six rigs so far, no kinks, no issues.) Silicone is also an option, though it's not clear.

Last, but not least, I'm about to pick up a Thermaltake Tidewater (I know, that name, but bear with me) and mod it with a full-cover block to do full loop watercooling that's removeable and can be carried from place to place. Found out that the only difference between the dual and the single block version is the number of blocks-same pump, rad and fan, so that means it has some overhead. Probably not for EVERYTHING, but I have some fun ideas in store...

[oshox]

I'd like to see more case recommendations, mostly under $100. The $100-$200 range certainly belongs to the CM Stacker T01's. I'm sure there's people who'd be interested in seeing what $200+ cases work best for water cooling, too.
I'd also like to hear a proffessional opinion on the MCB-120 Radbox. Will it hold a PA120.3, the heaviest radiator I know?
Recommendations for GPU blocks for the most popular VGA cards. I know that the type of block won't make much of a difference in performance, but which ones are easier to mount/unmount?
Any information about NB cooling. I know NB blocks aren't recommended, but removing the airflow generated by the CPU's HSF nullifies the benefit of passive NB heatsinks. Good motherboard/aftermarket heatsink combos would be appreciated.

[Bad213Boy]

one thing ive also found annoying is that when ordering all your parts and you end up not having the right screws for mounting fans to radiators, shrouds, and grills. it'd be nice to know what size screws work with certain set ups, so you dont end up puting holes in your beautiful rad :stick:

[hoax]

@ Marci: thanks for sharing that info! :toast:


EDIT: I just checked the FAQ by hoax, and questions like 'I was wondering what the experts thought would make the best coolant?' prove that people would ask a question and have the answer come to them, rather than searching for it in the big(est) leak testing guide, that's just how they do, so we either need a FAQ or a guide like your components guide in which we have a list of top five of each group of W.C. parts where there is no dilemma of which is the best, you have it all in one place and no need for reading like whole pages in search for an answer...

Marauder16,

Thanks for bringing it up... I wanted to explain it yesterday but it was so late I couldnt really think anymore... When I made the suggestion to Max to add a FAQ to the guide is because during the (short) time I been around the forums, I have seen those questions come up quite a few times.

The problem is that I suggested to add it in the end of his guide... and only once I started writing it I realized...who would need a FAQ after such a great guide? Seriously... if you actually read it all...there is no need for a FAQ. So I tried to come up with the top 10 non-searching lazy-begginers FAQ. I am guilty of doing it myself... I couldnt read the entire guide when I first got here.. I was still unsure about water cooling and it just looked "too complete".... "I just need to ask a couple questions.."...

I believe that's the only reason this questions keep poping up around here.. basically because people are too lazzy to read something that big until they are sure water cooling is right for them. Even tho it has all the information anyone could possibly want.

Thats why I used the posts from users to answer them instead of just giving you the questions.. I was trying to make it look like a "compiled search on the basic information you may be wondering about"

Well... if you guys think having a FAQ makes no sense to begin with...by all means lets just forget it...if not...maybe we can just fix it up a bit see how it looks...

cheers
hoax

[thunderstruck!]

one thing ive also found annoying is that when ordering all your parts and you end up not having the right screws for mounting fans to radiators, shrouds, and grills. it'd be nice to know what size screws work with certain set ups, so you dont end up puting holes in your beautiful rad :stick:
Here's from the online store sticky:

Pan Head Phillips Sheet Metal Screw, Black, #6 Size, 1-1/4"----90935A155 - For mounting 25mm thick fans to HWlabs, Swiftech and Coolingworks Radiators

2 threads about the thermochill rads and screws (should be included in the new sticky)

http://xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100946
http://xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=118515

[Petra]

Here's from the online store sticky:
Pan Head Phillips Sheet Metal Screw, Black, #6 Size, 1-1/4"----90935A155 - For mounting 25mm thick fans to HWlabs, Swiftech and Coolingworks Radiators
Actually, since we're on the topic of using the correct screws, the Swiftech radiators use M3.5 threaded machine screws... not sheet metal screws.

[marauder16]

Well... if you guys think having a FAQ makes no sense to begin with...by all means lets just forget it...if not...maybe we can just fix it up a bit see how it looks...
As I said before, the FAQ is a great idea, so don't even think of forgetting it, like you said, people who are not sure if w.c. is for them they won't read the whole guide so FAQ is the best place for them.

and what oshox suggested, maybe a list of best cases to mount w.c. loop in would be good, but the problem IMO is that the choice of a case very much depends on taste, and basically in any bigger case you can place a loop if modded properly, so it would be hard to make a list for of cases like that so everybody finds sth. for them...

[Bad213Boy]

im having a hard time finding anything regarding the fluid xp + extreme stuff. they state its viscocity is equivalent to water. but everywhere i look on the web i cant find anything regarding people using it with the storm. that'd be one thing id be concerned with. i for one am wayyy to lazy to mix my own liquids and play dr. chemist over here, lol. id rather pay the extra buck and just pick-up a premixed coolant.


but the problem IMO is that the choice of a case very much depends on taste, and basically in any bigger case you can place a loop if modded properly, so it would be hard to make a list for of cases like that so everybody finds sth. for them...

i totally agree. that woud be key to know what works best for what style of water cooling your looking for.

[BigBen2k]

Just keep the thread clean (it's got a lot of unecessary posts). ;)

[thunderstruck!]

Actually, since we're on the topic of using the correct screws, the Swiftech radiators use M3.5 threaded machine screws... not sheet metal screws.
I'm using them now on my MCR220. They appear to work well.

[thunderstruck!]

im having a hard time finding anything regarding the fluid xp + extreme stuff. they state its viscocity is equivalent to water. but everywhere i look on the web i cant find anything regarding people using it with the storm. that'd be one thing id be concerned with. i for one am wayyy to lazy to mix my own liquids and play dr. chemist over here, lol. id rather pay the extra buck and just pick-up a premixed coolant.



i totally agree. that woud be key to know what works best for what style of water cooling your looking for.
You don't need to be a chemist, just use distilled water and (optionally) add 2 tablespoons of Zerex (http://www.cooltechnica.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=Zerex-RSC&Category_Code=H2O-Add).

[thunderstruck!]

Just keep the thread clean (it's got a lot of unecessary posts). ;)
Maxxx is going to take useful info from this thread and put it in an existing sticky. This thread will be discarded.

[hoax]

As I said before, the FAQ is a great idea, so don't even think of forgetting it, like you said, people who are not sure if w.c. is for them they won't read the whole guide so FAQ is the best place for them.

and what oshox suggested, maybe a list of best cases to mount w.c. loop in would be good, but the problem IMO is that the choice of a case very much depends on taste, and basically in any bigger case you can place a loop if modded properly, so it would be hard to make a list for of cases like that so everybody finds sth. for them...

Cool, I am trying to finish the last ones... but I think you guys just came up with #7:

7) Is there a list of reccomended computer cases that are better suited for water cooling?
posted by marauder16: the choice of a case very much depends on taste, and basically in any bigger case you can place a loop if modded properly, so it would be hard to make a list of cases like that so everybody finds something for them.
:toast:

[Shpoon]

does the pentiosin come in UV green? I like green over blue (everyone has blue anyway, I want something different) so I was looking at hydrX but I've heard that it can clog stuff up. I only see blue and red pentiosin at petra's so that is why I'm asking.

http://www.blauparts.com/fluids.htm <- red, blue, purple

Can't find green, sorry.

[Bad213Boy]

Here's from the online store sticky:


2 threads about the thermochill rads and screws (should be included in the new sticky)

http://xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100946
http://xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=118515

i was wondering if i would get more performance out of my PA120.2 if i mounted four yateloon fans on my radiator; 2 pushing and 2 pulling?

i was also thinking about buying more gaskets and another shroud and then mounting 2 fans to the inside of each shroud, one on each side of the radiator (to give a nice finished look)

might be easier for someone to just go buy screws and bolts when mounting to the inside of a shroud no? then no worrys for penetrating the radiator.

[hoax]

sorry guys I moved the old post and edited it some:

===========================================
Begginers Liquid Cooling FAQ
===========================================

This FAQ was created for all begginers, and for those that are just too lazy to read the stickies or do some searching. It's a compilation of some of the most usual responses from experienced members, answering each question that keep showing up:

01) There is just too much information to deal with on these guides!!! Blocks, pumps, rads, barbs, reservoirs...damn...this is no joke.. I am affraid I won't be able to build a decent kit on my own. And I keep hearing bad things from pre-built kits.. Is water cooling still possible for me? I just want a silent, yet properly cooled, xtremelly overclocked system!

posted by seufar: I would definately suggest you try watercooling if you are interested...I would stay away from the prebuilt kits and go for a nice selection of parts from the recommendations of the forum members here... They should be able to hook you up with something.

posted by Khaotic: Absolutly! Water cooling!! FTW!

posted by Aramdin: You're making a big mistake by only thinking about it, just do it !

posted by Vandread: Read the faqs/guides etc!


02) I just found the nicest water cooling kit, and best of all its manucfactured by ___________!! Not only that... It has 2 radiators, and its EXTERNAL...which means NO LEAKS!! And it costs only ______!!! Would it be a good place to start on water cooling?

posted by mhorgel: The best waterblocks, radiators, and pumps are not made by the same company, so any kit you get sacrifices when it comes to at least 1 of the critical components. I have done the kit, and the custom route, and it is a lot more fun and rewarding to do a custom job. I understand that if you are new to watercooling that the myriad of waterblocks, radiators, tubing, barbs, pumps, reservoirs, and fittings can be intimidating. But just read the posts around here, don't be afraid to ask questions, don't be afraid to mess up (it's really hard to kill your CPU, believe me I tried!), and have fun.

posted by SiGfever: As was posted above a great deal of water cooling cost is when you realize that what you bought is either not right for your setup or does not give you the performance that you had hoped for causing you to have to buy new pieces parts. Read the stickies, do the research and then come back. There are soooooo many talented people on this forum that will be glad to help you make an informed decision. I know that the desire sometimes overrides our better judgment causing us to jump into the game before we truly understand the rules. JMO.

posted by septim: buy it right the first time around...

posted by Holst: Another point is that watercooling will last forever... You can buy this stuff now and still be using it in 5 years time. Considering that nothing else (bar case) is going to last that long its a good investment in your hobby.

posted by thunderstruck!: Never rush with water! Please read the stickies before you invest money into watercooling. Most of the money spent on watercooling is due to upgrades after someone purchases a premade kit with little knowledge about it.

posted by Alchemy1: If you are going to do it go all the way. Trust me you will only be on a constant road of upgrade after upgrade and in the end you will have spent more money. That is one thing I have learned about this hobby.


03) What water to use? Distilled?

posted by MaxxxRacer: The only coolant I reccomend is distilled water. It has the best cooling properties short of exotic fluids created by 3m (cost upwards of 1000 dollars to fill your system), has relatively low conductivity compared to regular tap water, and is cheap. There is NO need for all of those so-called non-conductive fluids as NONE of them actually are non-conductive. They have moderately higher resistance than distilled water, but will still dammage sensitive electronics.


04) I was wondering what the experts thought would make the best coolant?

posted by Marci: 1 drop of Spectrus (biocide) + 1 drop of Continuum (corrosion inhibitor) + 1.5oz glycerine (raises water's thermal conductivity co-efficient) to a litre of distilled water according to Hound53. If you can't get that, then Zerex at 5%.


05) I have no skills with any tool other then a screwdriver, and I don't want to mod my case. Is water cooling still possible for people like me?

Yes. Given a proper sized case, you can have your water cooler kit without any modifications made to the case. Have a look at the Water Cooled Case Galery (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34877) for some inspiration!


06) Is there a list of reccomended computer cases that are better suited for water cooling?

posted by marauder16: the choice of a case very much depends on taste, and basically in any bigger case you can place a loop if modded properly, so it would be hard to make a list of cases like that so everybody finds something for them.


07) I sometimes go to lan parties, or have to move my PC to other places. Can I move a water cooled PC without draining it?

posted by Nicks: Watercooling & case transportation is fine as it is a 100% air tight loop. I've transported my case many times.

posted by Iceman: Transporting PC's always has its dangers be it cooled with air/water or phase - aslong as your carefull and everything is tied down you should be ok. I wouldn't however plan on mounting anything externally as this will more than likely get damaged i.e no plexi reservoirs, external rads


08) I live in _________ and I can't find water cooling parts in local stores. Can you reccomend any stores that will ship to my country?

read here MaxxxRacers Guide to Online WaterCooling Stores (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67179)


09) What is the most popular tubbing on high performance systems?

posted by thunderstruck!: Masterkleer PVC Tubing 7/16" Id, 5/8" Od, 3/32" Wall Thickness. Part No. 5233K44 at mcmaster-carr. Pretty much the standard now.

posted by nikhsub1: People use Masterkleer, Clearflex, Tygon and Primoflex mostly.


10) How loud is a triple radiator water cooling set up? What is the noise of an single DC pump? Would water cooling reduce the ambient temperature in my room?

posted by creidiki: Its as quiet as the fans you put on the rad. Room still gets just as hot. Pump is dead silent if you decouple it properly - ie, sit it on some foam.


11) How should the water flow in my loop? Pump -> Radiator -> Chipset 1 & 2 -> GPU 1 & 2 -> Reservoir? or _________________?????

posted by Atomicpineapple: Loop order makes no difference as long as your resevoir/tline is before your pump. Overall water temp difference around a well balanced WC loop is less than 1 Deg C.


12) I am on a limited budget. I was thinking of getting a really nice CPU block + the best GPU block I can find and maybe a _______ single radiator?

posted by creidiki: Mmmm.. empyrical evidence would nod towards the idea that youre better off going for a cheaper block (MP-1 CPU, a nice AquaExtreme-built WhiteWater, heck, go apogee) and investing in rad/pump, if youre budget limited.

posted by thunderstruck!: If money is an issue, you should invest it in the right things. Like crediki said, a cheap mp-05 (new or used) with a great pump and rad (let's face it, pumps and rads are around for longer, and now with petra's top, the pump is near perfect) would be a better investment. You should at least get an MCR220 radiator. But if you think about it, in the long road you will want a Thermochill PA120.2/3 and will toss out the $45 you spent on the MCR220. Petty upgrades will cost a lot more in the long run than buying a good performing part in the beginning. Most of the money spent on watercooling is wasted on upgrades. That's why you should save up and do it right the first go-around.



13) Is it better to use the fans in pull or push mode? or both?

14) In general how big is the risk of this thing leaking and killing my hardware?

15) How often does it need maintenance? Do I just add more fluid?

16) What can I use to prevent tube kinks? ( Submitted by: marauder16)

17) Does it make sense to have the most important block right after the pump so that it gets higher pressure

Simply put, NO. The reason for this is that the water pressure inside of the block does NOT matter. As the water passes through each item in the loop (after it leaves the pump) the water pressure drops but the flow remains the same, and it is the flow that matters. What should be considered in loop order is the temperature of the water. Idealy you want the coolest water going into the most important block (usually the CPU block.) To achieve this place the radiator right before the important block in the loop order. This rule can be ignored with pumps that have low enough heat outputs that the water temperature does not change noticeably as it passes through it.


==================================================

well thats all I got so far....suggestions anyone?!

cheers
hoax

[MaxxxRacer]

Actually, since we're on the topic of using the correct screws, the Swiftech radiators use M3.5 threaded machine screws... not sheet metal screws.

I made the thread before swifty switched over IIRC..


Hoax: that last post is awesome. There are a few things that I feel should be pruned out of there, but for the most part they are all great FAQ questions.


*continues to read through thread*

[hoax]

Hoax: that last post is awesome. There are a few things that I feel should be pruned out of there, but for the most part they are all great FAQ questions.

Hello Max,

Glad you liked the questions! :toast:

I didnt know if you plan on adding the faq to the your guide, or if you plan to create a new topic for it... But in any case, if anything needs to be removed just let me know, or if you prefer to do it yourself, please dont think twice about changing any of it...

I will see if I can think of any other questions, and if anybody else wants to add a question to the FAQ just reply here or send me an MP and I will edit the previous post.

cheers
hoax

[MaxxxRacer]

At first i was thinking of adding it to the guide but now I'm not sure. I wonder if people will actually click on it if its in a seperate thread.... hmm... I will think more on this matter.

[hoax]

At first i was thinking of adding it to the guide but now I'm not sure. I wonder if people will actually click on it if its in a seperate thread.... hmm... I will think more on this matter.

hehe ok... one suggestion maybe... what if you added a Sections selector on the top of the guide...like the type where you click on a section name and it shoots you down to the section? I dont know how hard it would be to make it... :confused:

just a thought..

[MaxxxRacer]

hehe ok... one suggestion maybe... what if you added a Sections selector on the top of the guide...like the type where you click on a section name and it shoots you down to the section? I dont know how hard it would be to make it... :confused:

just a thought..

absolutely no idea if I can do that in VB code.. but that is a good idea. I will ask the VB/HTML experts if it can be done here.

[hoax]

absolutely no idea if I can do that in VB code.. but that is a good idea. I will ask the VB/HTML experts if it can be done here.

actually i think you would have to change the guide to html and then post the html code.. but the code is the part I was unsure of.. sorry :slap:

[MaxxxRacer]

thankfully I know that you can use both html and vb code. if it was one way or the other I couldnt change it now.. there is about 3hrs worth of typing in vb code for the main guide..

[septim]

basically put another Sticky Thread called "Read First the 10/20/30 Basic Condensed FAQs to Water Cooling" then some links pointing to "The Long Read Complete Water Cooling Guide" and other pointing to "The Updated Complete Water Cooling Stores List"

might i also suggest pruning out / weeding out / condensing your guides like your single post watercooling stores guide, because most noobs will likely read only the first few pages of a thread or only the last few pages thinking this is where the current updates are...

(as you can't really answer most questions by a single post is the reason that noobs create new threads)

PS there's just too much parts that are usefull from McmasterCarr that too list the most usefull stuff would be enough...
also mounting screws preference depends on the end user, example is: i used hand tap #6-32 then thumbscrews #6-32 on my radiator...

[oshox]

I understand the case issue. It *is* mostly up to taste, which one will be best for the particular user. Now I haven't yet done a loop, but I imagine the full towers are pretty straitforward. I see post pretty frequently where noobs like me are asking for case recommendations.
If you wanted to recommend a couple of inexpensive mid-towers, which will work with w/c with a minimum of case modding. Also, please explain what is important to look for in a case.

As far as orgonization, you might want to write it up in HTML and see if xtremesystems.org will host it on their site. Then you can link to it in the forums?

[Marci]

All cases work with a "minimum" of case modding. At the end of the day, the most anyone should need to do in terms of modding is cut anywhere from 1 to 3 blowholes for the radiator n' that's it... anything beyond that is purely user preference. Common sense can also be applied - a case with 120mm fanports as standard will allow easy installation of any 1x120 rad based system. A case with 2x 120 fan ports will generally allow easy installation of any 2x120 rad based system (other than PA120.2 and PA120.3 - we like to force folks to mod or part with oodles of cash for a supporting MountainMods case!)

Every case is as easy as every other in the most basic sense - nearly ALL cases out there allow a single or double radiator to be mounted in the top providing you're willing to cut 2x simple blowholes... of which there are LOADS of guides around the net covering how. It's often MUCH cheaper simply to go out and buy a 110mm holesaw and modify your current case than fork out &#163;50+ on a new case specifically for it. The same holesaw can be utilised for those who choose to mount in the base of the case or the front of the case. Hole-cutting templates for the individual radiators are generally available from both the manufacturer as well as it's resellers.

Anyone not prepared to mod can simply invest in the Swiftech Radbox and mount any size radiator externally off one of the cases rear blowholes.

There is nothing important to look for in a case for wc-ing other than the absence of plastic panelling (as this makes cutting blowholes more complex). Everything else is again down to user taste and preference.

There's only so much handholding that should be done... if folks need talking thru every single step, then they either haven't done enough research or simply don't have the marbles to be watercooling in the first place.

Don't forget - watercooling is a PC Technology that is over 10 years old. Only the individual pieces of hardware have changed. The mounting methodologies and means of fitting within a case haven't changed from Day 1.

[FLMJIGGY]

Ok. Great guide btw as I rad it too late b4 I bought my kit! :(

However, I believe I read it here somewhere, doesn't copper automatically help in the loop? Therefore no need to add anything but distilled h20... If I remember reading correctly.

On the rad and pumps I had a few things that kinda confused me at first. The recommendations are, seems, to be for 2 or more fans... what about people who have room for only 1 rad? Which would be best or bang for buck?

What about pump dba? That would be nice. How loud they are that way we can compare though you do mention that some are quieter than others.

The Swifty 6000 cpu waterblock is also almost impossible to find.

Thanks as I believe it's the best guide I've read in WC. Nothing even comes close.

I also agree with Marci on the case issue...

[oshox]

@Marci: Great, that little rant (more or less) should go into the guide

[MaxxxRacer]

HRRRRMMM....

Marci: You mind if I jack your post and add a case section to the guide? Obviously I would modify it a bit to fit more with the context of the guide, but as a whole its exactly what we need.

oshox: FUGGER (Charles) would have no problem hosting it (I already have several articles on the front page) but I no jack sheit of HTML (I'm a hardware guy not a web guy). BUT if someone wants to write it up in HTML, more power to them.

FLMJIGGY: I need to remove the 6000 and 6002 as they ARE impossible to find. I havnt seen one anywhere for a long time. Time to do some more editing.

Well guys for the weekend I will be MIA.. but keep up with the suggestions and I will be back sunday night.

[hoax]

Well guys for the weekend I will be MIA.. but keep up with the suggestions and I will be back sunday night.

Hi Max, hope you have a good weekend...

here are possibly 3 more questions for the begginers FAQ:

- Is it better to use the fans in pull or push mode? or both?

- In general how big is the risk of this thing leaking and killing my hardware?

- How often does it need maintenance? Do I just add more fluid?

cheers
hoax

[thunderstruck!]

Hi Max, hope you have a good weekend...

here are possibly 3 more questions for the begginers FAQ:

- Is it better to use the fans in pull or push mode? or both?

- In general how big is the risk of this thing leaking and killing my hardware?

- How often does it need maintenance? Do I just add more fluid?

cheers
hoax
Good questions that a noob might ask.

For the 2nd question, the answer is 99% leak-free if you properly leak test.

3rd- Needs maintenance every 6th mths to clean blocks (optional if you don't have blocks that clog) and top off t-line when needed.

[septim]

for the first question it would depend on your own case-rad-fan orientation, front top back bottom, different mounting, different styles...

but still undervolting a fan plus shroud with a PA radiator pull seems to be the most effective...

there are a lot of "he said this" "he said that" that most noobs would likely be more confused with our discussion...

i would suggest that Maxxx to give the noob the choice on which would be easier to do for his own case rad fan orientation...

[marauder16]

another question for the FAQ:
What can I use to prevent tube kinks?

[SiGfever]

How about....Which will give me better performance, having the pump's discharge going directly to the CPU water block inlet for maximum pressure on an impingement block or having the pump's discharge going to the rad first and then the CPU block for lowest interring water temperature?

[marauder16]

How about....Which will give me better performance, having the pump's discharge going directly to the CPU water block inlet for maximum pressure on an impingement block or having the pump's discharge going to the rad first and then the CPU block for lowest interring water temperature?
I like this question, was asking the same thing myself couple of moths ago. I think the best is to put the rad after the pump and then put the CPU block, cause if you put the block right after the pump the water won't be that cold, ...but I think only testing can prove this.

[hoax]

great questions marauder16 and SigFever.. :fact:

I wonder if anyone has already tried the method marauder16 described...

[MaxxxRacer]

I like this question, was asking the same thing myself couple of moths ago. I think the best is to put the rad after the pump and then put the CPU block, cause if you put the block right after the pump the water won't be that cold, ...but I think only testing can prove this.


How about....Which will give me better performance, having the pump's discharge going directly to the CPU water block inlet for maximum pressure on an impingement block or having the pump's discharge going to the rad first and then the CPU block for lowest interring water temperature?


both of you go read the guides and your question will be answered. And if you tell me that you have already done so you are flat out lying or didnt read the whole thing. (intro to watercooling, particularly the pumps and waterblock section as well as the pumps guide)

[creidiki]

omg... sigfever i expected better of you :lol2:

[septim]

pump - thermochill PA rad - cpu = best water temp before cpu...

besides running with a PA between pump and first block won't really affect flow that much, but i do think temp wise it would be less than a degree...

[eXa]

Hey max, do you have any room in one of your guides to my waterblock threading and fittings... uh guide?

i think someone would like it to be stickied but we cant have to many stickies either so ill think it fits better in one of yours. maybe a link or something cus then i can continue to update it with ease!

[SiGfever]

both of you go read the guides and your question will be answered. And if you tell me that you have already done so you are flat out lying or didnt read the whole thing. (intro to watercooling, particularly the pumps and waterblock section as well as the pumps guide)
The question was NOT for me it was for the updated guide. I thought that we were supposed to give ideas for questions? Sorry.

[MaxxxRacer]

The question was NOT for me it was for the updated guide. I thought that we were supposed to give ideas for questions? Sorry.

Sorry about that. I misread what you wrote. But that would indeed be a good thing to put in the FAQ. People have (as did I) a misguided notion that the absolute pressure of the water at the waterblock makes a noticeable difference in cooling performance.


Hey max, do you have any room in one of your guides to my waterblock threading and fittings... uh guide?

i think someone would like it to be stickied but we cant have to many stickies either so ill think it fits better in one of yours. maybe a link or something cus then i can continue to update it with ease!


can you link me?

[hoax]

can you link me?

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=119190

:toast:

[marauder16]

both of you go read the guides and your question will be answered. And if you tell me that you have already done so you are flat out lying or didn't read the whole thing. (intro to watercooling, particularly the pumps and waterblock section as well as the pumps guide)
Same as Sigfever, I wasn't asking questions, but giving ideas for the FAQ, of course I know what to use to prevent kinks..., though maybe I didn't explain too well why it is better to put the rad before the block cause I don't remember every word from your guide.

was asking the same thing myself couple of moths ago I think this also proves that I know the answer...
and a quote from your guide:

So here is a general rule to follow. Pump>Radiator>CPU>...

[SiGfever]

[QUOTE=MaxxxRacer]
"Sorry about that. I misread what you wrote. But that would indeed be a good thing to put in the FAQ. People have (as did I) a misguided notion that the absolute pressure of the water at the waterblock makes a noticeable difference in cooling performance."


No problem mate. :toast:

What do you think about the idea of making your fact "sticky" non-reply able? Get all of your questions and answers together so they don't become so overwhelming trying to read twenty-eight pages of replies trying to find an answer.

Then if someone has a particular question they can either submit it as an addendum to the "sticky" or post their question as a new thread. Just a thought.

By the way, I see that you have already started editing the "stickies". I found the information to be even more helpful and concise. :toast: :toast:

[SiGfever]

omg... sigfever i expected better of you :lol2:

Man that hurts! :D

[MaxxxRacer]

marauder16: I appologize to you as well.

The reason that I snapped at both of you was firstly becasuse i misread your posts and secondly because that particular toppic is one that I make sure to make abundantly clear in the guides so that the confusion and endless threads over that same topic will stop (and they have).

SiGfever: making the guide non-replyabe is an excelent idea. It has worked well for the stores guide and it should do the same for the FAQ.

eXA: I will most certainly link that thread in the guide. Not sure where, but I will fit it in there.

BTW, I have been keeping the FAQ listed in hoax's post updated with all the new questions and will transfer it over to a sticky later today.

[MaxxxRacer]

OK.. its done.

Comments?
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=119699

[SiGfever]

:woot: :clap: :clap:

Excellent! :toast:

[hoax]

:woot: :clap: :clap:

Excellent! :toast:


Nice Maxx...glad you ended up using it. thanks for the credits too...but poor SiGfever was even called a noob for coming up with one of the questions and still got no credit :nono:

hehe thats all I think needs fixing :toast:

[MaxxxRacer]

I knew I forgot someone, hence I put the extra coma in there. will go fix it now.

[thunderstruck!]

Looks good. Now when I check in here, I shouldn't see so many repetitive questions. :up:

[MaxxxRacer]

Looks good. Now when I check in here, I shouldn't see so many repetitive questions. :up:

thats a good one. People will ask the same questions over and over again no matter what.. This way though I hope it will be less people.

[marauder16]

No hard feelings Maxx, and it really is an honor to be mentioned in your sticky! thank you for that, and congrats on making it, it looks great! :toast: :clap:

[hoax]

I knew I forgot someone, hence I put the extra coma in there. will go fix it now.

hehe sorry Max.. Didnt mean to sound rude..

Think it looks great now..And like marauder16 said it was an honor to be able to help you with it... keep up the amazing work... thanks again :toast:

cheers
hoax

[creidiki]

I'm in it! \o/

[JoeBar]

Very nice job Maxxx! :toast:
A big thanks to u and to all members that contributed and deserved to be mentioned! :clap:

[tommrussell]

I'm in it! \o/

as well you should be, not only for the great advice given, but for the invention of the "creidiki plug"

[SiGfever]

I'm in it! \o/
How could it be complete without the advice of Cathar, Marci, Radical_53, nikhsub1 and yourself?

We that have learned salute you! :toast: :toast:

Thanx Hoax. :)

[MaxxxRacer]

How could it be complete without the advice of Cathar, Marci, Radical_53, nikhsub1 and yourself?

We that have learned salute you! :toast: :toast:

Thanx Hoax. :)

Did I fit Stew in there?

[septim]

hoping for update on water cooling stores to go with your recent updates.
Ek water blocks noh?

[MaxxxRacer]

ahh forgot.. need to add Eddy to the stores. What country is Eddy in?

[Marci]

Slovenia mefinx...

[marauder16]

Slovenia mefinx...
Yeah, right next to my country (is it called a 'neighbor' country?) Here we have many jokes of Slovenia cause of it's size :D

[SiGfever]

Did I fit Stew in there?
I was kinda hoping to see his quoted take on tubing size as it relates to system performance.

Quote:

"This is from Cathar

Quote:
Been rolling the whole tubing size idea around in my head, and thinking about trade-offs and the like.

I like the idea of 3/8" ID tubing, but I just can't shake the feeling that for >4LPM that it starts to become an increasingly significant source of restriction for those who wish to make use of strong pumps capable of pushing the higher flow rates. It's not that 3/8" tubing is bad at all for coping with moderate flow rates, it's just that it could be better. For example at 6LPM, 7' of 3/8" ID tubing is offering pretty close to 1mH2O of pressure drop all by itself.

But 3/8" is attractive because it's very light, and it bleeds air-bubbles fast.

1/2" tubing is fat and unattractive. Unless flow rates are getting past the 6LPM mark, air-bubbles don't bleed very well. It's heavy, and it requires fairly thick walls (1/8") before it can turn good radii without kinking, but this wall thickness comes at a cost of making it stiffer to turn, thus putting more leverage on the water-block's all important thermal contact. However, it takes around 13.5LPM before 7' of 1/2" ID tubing offers 1mH2O of pressure drop, so really it's almost overkill.

So I looked to the middle-ground, that being 7/16" (~11.1mm) that has 3/32" wall thickness for a total of 5/8" OD. Per length of tubing it's about 2/3's the weight of the 1/2" ID (3/4" OD) tubing. Being a thinner ID it is able to be bent into tighter radii without kinking, allowing for the use of the 3/32" wall thickness, which means that it also becomes easier to turn those radii. It offers 1mH2O of pressure drop at 9.5LPM for a 7' length, which pretty much puts it still as a very attractive offering.

Then I took into account stretching the 7/16" ID tubing over 1/2" OD fittings (barbs) with 10mm ID orifices. Due to the "lip effect" the 1/2" ID tubing actually offers nearly 3x the transitioning resistance at fittings as the 7/16" tubing whose ID more closely matches the ID of the fitting. Over a typical full system when fitting resistance is taken into account, the 7/16" ID tubing offers almost the same amount of tubing + fitting resistance as the 1/2" ID tubing.

Results were obtained using the pressure drop calculator from http://www.pressure-drop.org.

This all got me to thinking that really what us 1/2 inchers may really want to be doing is fitting 3/32" thickness walled 7/16" ID tubing over our 1/2" barbed systems, and pretty much be enjoying no extra system resistance, but gaining the benefits of lighter tubing that is easier to bleed (bleeds very well at a predicted ~5LPM), easier to bend, isn't as bulky, "hangs" less off water-blocks, and is significantly cheaper due to less wall material being used."



And Maxxx thanks for including me in your guide, there are soooo many people here that contribute on a daily basis. I just wish that I knew half of what they have forgot. :toast:

[marauder16]

And Maxxx thanks for including me in your guide, there are soooo many people here that contribute on a daily basis. I just wish that I knew half of what they have forgot.
Well said :clap:

[FLMJIGGY]

Don't think this was mentioned

Perhaps a price comparison?

Better Waterblocks in the $50 then obviosuly Stomr is in the higher area. You mention a few $50 blocks but from what you said they don't seem like a good idea. I bought an Aqua mp01 becasue I did some research and really couldn't find many alternatives.

Rads in a specific $ range. Also liek I mentioned previously 1 120mm fan rads.

Thanks again for the guide I learned a ton by it.

[FLMJIGGY]

Sorry, I went to the old sticky and just barely noticed you had a NEW sticky!!! LOL

disregard last post

[MaxxxRacer]

Sorry, I went to the old sticky and just barely noticed you had a NEW sticky!!! LOL

disregard last post

refering to the parts guide?? thats been there for a while ;)

[septim]

me thinks he wants the parts and pricing guide...
this could take few days to compile depending on where you are US or Europe
also price varies always, so very hard to effeciently catalog everything
and also customs, shipping, etc etc...

[embeejay]

As a complete and utter n00b (still haven't even bought parts for my first WC system), being non-english to boot, my main problem when starting to read about watercooling is all the technical words used. I understood alot of them, but the first couple of times I heard the word "barb" for instance, I didn't have a clue what it meant, because whenever I was looking at a place where i could buy watercooling equipment it was listed as a "fitting".

If you truely wanna make the FAQ/guides n00b friendly, having a picture-book'ish "read this first" sticky with a picture to go for every technical term used in the threads would be awesome imo. I have read all the stickies in here more than once and i still have a lot of doubts (ok admitted - i am cautious by nature) about how i am going to build my system.

As the n00b I am, the biggest "obstacle" I find in starting with WC, is that in almost every explanation i find about how to do things, the author has left out tidbits of information that is so obvious to the author that it never occurs to him/her that true newbs don't have the most basic knowledge/understanding about how WC works. As an example i am sure that will make most of you laugh - i am still unsure of how to set up a T-line with a laing dcc-pro since i have read everywhwre that i need to use the top-inlet for the best performance - but if I use that, how will i make the T-line work? (I am not looking for an answer here, i am sure i'll find it elsewhere, this is just an example about how clueless we n00bs can be)

That said, you guys run a wicked forum here - I have been thinking about Watercooling for several years but only in the last week (when i found your forum by chance) did i decide to get a setup going - until I found this forum I had no idea where to start, so a big thx to everyone in here who makes this forum what it is ;)

[hoax]

If you truely wanna make the FAQ/guides n00b friendly, having a picture-book'ish "read this first" sticky with a picture to go for every technical term used in the threads would be awesome imo. I have read all the stickies in here more than once and i still have a lot of doubts (ok admitted - i am cautious by nature) about how i am going to build my system.


I could not agree with this more. I have seen this type of guide being used on food charts that were being studied by people from different countries. I think it would be incredibly helpfull for all new foreign members.

We noobs could come up with the list of "strange" terms and some very patient american could help us finding a picture that would better represent that part, and name a short list of possible synonyms..

ie:

======================
barb - also called fitting or ....

[pic]
======================

anyone else agrees with us that this would be a nice idea?

cheers
hoax

[FLMJIGGY]

me thinks he wants the parts and pricing guide...
this could take few days to compile depending on where you are US or Europe
also price varies always, so very hard to effeciently catalog everything
and also customs, shipping, etc etc...

Kind of something like that. I don't need it much because I've done so much reading I have an "idea" of what is good in a price range.

It would have helped a tremendous amount when I was starting... I guess I wanted to be spoon fed. :D However if you want something some work is due.

I still believe a tad more explaining on a rad section because that was the most difficult for me. I've settled on a black ice pro for a 1 120mm setup. I did a lot of research and I guess it was the best solution for me. (I have a microfly case)