18W DDC or Iwaki?

[AMDfreak]

The 18W DDC with a Radiical top seems to be a popular item in these forums. The price for this comes in at about $125 for pump and top. Is there any good reason somone would recommend the DDC over the Iwaki WP-IKWMD20RLZT (American motor) for the same price?

[ReD.SkY]

the only reason to get the DDC is cuz its

Quieter
DC
Small
Less heat dump

[AMDfreak]

That's what I was thinking but wanted to make sure. I think I'm going with the Iwaki since I'm using a PA 120.3 which should handle the heat and I don't mind a little extra noise for better performance. Room isn't going to be a problem with my U2-UFO.

[ReD.SkY]

good choice

[Turok]

Im a bit unaware of what's happening in the watercooling world for about a year :P
Im planning on updating my 50z to a Iwaki MD20 or something about the same performance.

So 2x Swiftech DDC / MCP350 perform about the same as a Iwaki MD20RZT and combined run more silent and produce less heat than a single MD20RZT? Which one performs better, tho?

I see the DDC gets a much higher performance when modded into a L shape instead of the default U shape, but Im a bit woried that if I mod it I may do something wrong. Is there someone who can sell me the blocks cheap already modded?
Do you think its worth it or is it easy enough that I should do it for myself?

[ReD.SkY]

2 x DDC perform better than a MD20... almost as good as a RD-30 pressure wise

and in theory even better temperature wise.

you can get the custom tops for the DDC

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4506
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4509

[SiGfever]

That's what I was thinking but wanted to make sure. I think I'm going with the Iwaki since I'm using a PA 120.3 which should handle the heat and I don't mind a little extra noise for better performance. Room isn't going to be a problem with my U2-UFO.
I just got my U2-UFO on the 28th. I live in Chesterfield. :toast:

[nealh]

get Iwaki made in japan..they are quieter than ones made in america

DDC pumps are smaller and Iwaki my not fit well in a given case

2 x DDC+ w/ radical tops will run $200-$300(pumps $80-100 + 2 radical tops close to $50..if you go with 2 alphacool tops...$220)

Iwaki is better pump for flow and head pressure, probably longer life too
http://www.aquadirect.com/store/home.php?cat=239
the specs are amazing..BTW they have HD20...supposedly same as american made MD20
http://www.aquadirect.com/store/product.php?productid=495&cat=224&page=1 $110

Question is do need the performance vs cost

I am pretty sure a triple rad with storm rev 2, mcw60 block(or 2 in sli) will get excellent performance with a single DDC+ w/modded top

[ReD.SkY]

get Iwaki made in japan..they are quieter than ones made in america

DDC pumps are smaller and Iwaki my not fit well in a given case

2 x DDC+ w/ radical tops will run $200-$300(pumps $80-100 + 2 radical tops close to $50..if you go with 2 alphacool tops...$220)

Iwaki is better pump for flow and head pressure, probably longer life too
http://www.aquadirect.com/store/home.php?cat=239
the specs are amazing..BTW they have HD20...supposedly same as american made MD20
http://www.aquadirect.com/store/product.php?productid=495&cat=224&page=1 $110

Question is do need the performance vs cost

I am pretty sure a triple rad with storm rev 2, mcw60 block(or 2 in sli) will get excellent performance with a single DDC+ w/modded top

how is an iwaki with 20ft head better than 30ft head of dual DDC?
remember, a bigger number is better in this case.

flow is better tho, but as always, the head is mroe important than flow... thats why u should always base your desicion on a PQ curve chart of a pump.


a single DDC has mroe head than that blueline HD20 lmao

[AMDfreak]

I just got my U2-UFO on the 28th. I live in Chesterfield. :toast:

:toast: Me too! Livin' in Deer Run....

Back to the pumps...also note guys that I'm looking at the Iwaki "Z" version with a max head of 22.6 ft.

As far as noise between Japanese and American motors, is it enough of a difference in noise to justify a $55 premium for the Japanese version?

[nealh]

how is an iwaki with 20ft head better than 30ft head of dual DDC?
remember, a bigger number is better in this case.

flow is better tho, but as always, the head is mroe important than flow... thats why u should always base your desicion on a PQ curve chart of a pump.


a single DDC has mroe head than that blueline HD20 lmao

where did you see a dual DDC has 30ft of head? was this for dual DDC+ modded top.....looks like an overvolted pair of DDC give 30 ft head pressure
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10825

Ok..I blew head pressure HD20 is 13 ft vs 14 ft on DDC+ unmodded,...:slapass:

But you can get a MD20 for $160 vs $50-100 more for 2 DDC+ modded pumps...look I like a DDC+ plus modded top, I bought one..looking forward to using it though I doubt my performance will be much better vs D5

[ReD.SkY]

true...

but i personally think dual pumps are overkill for an average setup...

so just get one or the other :)

[t1no]

Dual D5 better than md20?

[Turok]

true...

but i personally think dual pumps are overkill for an average setup...

so just get one or the other :)

In my case I will need the power, I think.
Im planning on running these pumps with a 1/2" loop with a T-line, probably a Storm G5 CPU block, 2x custom 7950GX2 GPU blocks, and a Monster Core.

I will probably have to mod those pumps myself, since buying a pre-moded version or a single MD20RZT will cost a lot of money.
2x DDC will cost about $140, and the fittings and the glue should be pretty cheap.
I have a dremel, so I can mod it. What wories me the most is opening the pump, since Ive never done it before.

I will need to learn more about the interior design of pumps to know what Im doing. This review on Maxxx's sticky could also guide me to modding this.
http://www.systemcooling.com/mcp350_mod-01.html
If I get the two pumps, Ill probably post a thread so people can walk me through the modding process carefully.

EDIT: Only problem I see is that the outlet fitting will be too small. I will probably have to buy some 3/8” tubing and stretch the tube to the first 1/2" fitting it comes in contact.

[ReD.SkY]

you need the power for it then....


no modding needed:

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4506
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4509

but yah its cheaper to do it urself

[aMp]

How can this sentence...


I will probably have to mod those pumps myself, since buying a pre-moded version or a single MD20RZT will cost a lot of money.

...logically follow this one?


Im planning on running these pumps with a 1/2" loop with a T-line, probably a Storm G5 CPU block, 2x custom 7950GX2 GPU blocks, and a Monster Core.

Quad-SLI and a hundred bucks either way on the pump is going to break the bank?

[epion2985]

if you are going to go though the trouble of getting an iwaki pump you might as well get the RD30, getting am MD20 makes no sence.

[Thomas FJ]

I would go for an Ultra with plexi top and using the top inlet...
I have heard from a VERY reliable source that it has nearly 50% higher pressure and flow rates, than the DDC Basic PRO also using top inlet...

It could be an IWAKI killer, but defiantly in series :)

The data will be published in 2-3 weeks due to holidays, but be prepared to be surprised because the ultra is a MONSTER :)
/Thomas

[Turok]

How can this sentence...

...logically follow this one?

Quad-SLI and a hundred bucks either way on the pump is going to break the bank?

Im on a budget, so I have to crunch my update within the money I earned for a year (Im a student not working atm).

My current setup is a Monster Core, TDX CPU block, AQ 50z, 7/16" tygon on 1/2" fittings, and a T-Line.
All Im going to do is but 2x 7950GX2 custom blocks for a single 7950GX2 (NOT QUAD BLOCK AND QUAD SLI)
I already ordered a single XFX 7950GX2 (520/1300) for $540.
Im going to sell my 50z and TDX, which will help me get the CPU block and the dual pump solution without wasteing so much money.

My watercooling updates will cost about $250 afther selling the 50z and TDX, so its not as high as you think.


I would go for an Ultra with plexi top and using the top inlet...
I have heard from a VERY reliable source that it has nearly 50% higher pressure and flow rates, than the DDC Basic PRO also using top inlet...

It could be an IWAKI killer, but defiantly in series :)

The data will be published in 2-3 weeks due to holidays, but be prepared to be surprised because the ultra is a MONSTER :)
/Thomas

So the links ReD.SkY posted is the Ultra and the top?
Is there a cheaper way to go? $236 afther shipping is a lot of money for me :(
Ive seen people here do some custom acrylic tops on their DDC or MCP350. Ill have to PM them when I buy these pumps.

BTW, how does this top work? You say it performs 50% better, but I dont see how the water goes in from the top. The top looks like where you connect the reservoir and the inlet looks like it enters on the side making the U shape of a stock DDC.

How will this perform better than a custom 1/2" inlet from the top? If you have a larger fitting on the top, the pump will starve less for water and by making it a L shape it will have less resistance when entering the pump.

Even if you can replace that cap on the top of the Alphacool Laing top for a fitting, the bottom chanel is still open and may cause some turbulence if its not sealed with glue from the inside.

I dont see how this expensive block...
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/images/products/LAING_DDC_ULTRA_01.jpg

...will perform better than this simple mod:
http://www.systemcooling.com/images/reviews/LiquidCooling/Swiftech_MCP350_Mod/image7big.jpg

[Thomas FJ]

Im on a budget, so I have to crunch my update within the money I earned for a year (Im a student not working atm).

My current setup is a Monster Core, TDX CPU block, AQ 50z, 7/16" tygon on 1/2" fittings, and a T-Line.
All Im going to do is but 2x 7950GX2 custom blocks for a single 7950GX2 (NOT QUAD BLOCK AND QUAD SLI)
I already ordered a single XFX 7950GX2 (520/1300) for $540.
Im going to sell my 50z and TDX, which will help me get the CPU block and the dual pump solution without wasteing so much money.

My watercooling updates will cost about $250 afther selling the 50z and TDX, so its not as high as you think.



So the links ReD.SkY posted is the Ultra and the top?
Yes, it's the Ultra and the PRO top...
There are 2 DDC pumps:

DDC - Normal/Basic
DDC - Ultra/Plus/+

Both pumps can have a PRO top (http://www.alphacool.de/xt/product_info.php/products_id/3313/cPath/5_26_267/laing-pumps/pum-laing-ddc-alphacool-attachment.html) on, the plexi one with optionale fittings.


On top of that they can have the reservoir:
http://www.alphacool.de/xt/product_info.php/products_id/3345/cPath/5_26_267/laing-pumps/pum-laing-ddc-alphacool-water-tank-and-attachment.html

Then they comes with different bards etc.

See all the versions here:
http://www.alphacool.de/xt/index.php/cPath/5_26_267/category/laing-pumps.html


Is there a cheaper way to go? $236 afther shipping is a lot of money for me :(
Ive seen people here do some custom acrylic tops on their DDC or MCP350. Ill have to PM them when I buy these pumps.


BTW, how does this top work? You say it performs 50% better, but I dont see how the water goes in from the top. The top looks like where you connect the reservoir and the inlet looks like it enters on the side making the U shape of a stock DDC.
It works in 2 ways.
1. Both inlet and outlet in the front
2. Inlet in the top (where the plug is) and outlet in the front

"2" has profen to be the best way to use the pump, as per it gives higher performance than using "1"

The ~50% performance increase is between the DDC Normal/Basic to the DDC Ultra BOTH with Pro top and "2" barbs mounting option

How will this perform better than a custom 1/2" inlet from the top? If you have a larger fitting on the top, the pump will starve less for water and by making it a L shape it will have less resistance when entering the pump.
The water comes more optimal into the pump from the top inlet, which gives the better performance

Even if you can replace that cap on the top of the Alphacool Laing top for a fitting, the bottom chanel is still open and may cause some turbulence if its not sealed with glue from the inside.
You just unscrew the cap, and use it in the front instead :) :)

I dont see how this expensive block...
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/images/products/LAING_DDC_ULTRA_01.jpg

...will perform better than this simple mod:
http://www.systemcooling.com/images/reviews/LiquidCooling/Swiftech_MCP350_Mod/image7big.jpg

When you are into DIY that will give you nearly the same results... Just get the Ultra version :)



Comments in red
/Thomas

[Turok]

...When you are into DIY that will give you nearly the same results... Just get the Ultra version :) Comments in red
/Thomas

ok, so since the performance should be the same, then I can mod it myself.
The price will drop from $236 to about $150-$160 by doing this.

I just noticed there are two versions of DDC before you posted :p: was a bit consufed
Looks like Swiftech sometimes ships old and new DDC version randomly.
The old one runs at 10v and the new one runs at 18v.
All I know for now is that the pump with the red/orange impeller is the 18v version.

So the Swiftech MCP350 = DDC 10v, which leaves me only with the DDC 18v.

Danger Den has the DDC Plus (18v)
http://www.dangerdenstore.com/product.php?productid=135&cat=23&page=1
I will have to check for the impeller when I buy it.

[AMDfreak]

Then they comes with different bards etc.

That's music to my ears! :p: :banana:

[Thomas FJ]

ok, so since the performance should be the same, then I can mod it myself.
The price will drop from $236 to about $150-$160 by doing this.

I just noticed there are two versions of DDC before you posted :p: was a bit consufed
Looks like Swiftech sometimes ships old and new DDC version randomly.
The old one runs at 10v and the new one runs at 18v.
All I know for now is that the pump with the red/orange impeller is the 18v version.

So the Swiftech MCP350 = DDC 10v, which leaves me only with the DDC 18v.

Danger Den has the DDC Plus (18v)
http://www.dangerdenstore.com/product.php?productid=135&cat=23&page=1
I will have to check for the impeller when I buy it.


Just have in mind, that the moded one on the systemcooling picture is a 12mm OD barb, and the front is still 10mm OD...
This means you will have to run with different tubing sizes, if you chose to use a 12mmOD...
If you use a 10mmOD bard the performance increase wouldn't be the same...
/Thomas

[tw33ter]

ok, so since the performance should be the same, then I can mod it myself.
The price will drop from $236 to about $150-$160 by doing this.

I just noticed there are two versions of DDC before you posted :p: was a bit consufed
Looks like Swiftech sometimes ships old and new DDC version randomly.
The old one runs at 10v and the new one runs at 18v.
All I know for now is that the pump with the red/orange impeller is the 18v version.

So the Swiftech MCP350 = DDC 10v, which leaves me only with the DDC 18v.

Danger Den has the DDC Plus (18v)
http://www.dangerdenstore.com/product.php?productid=135&cat=23&page=1
I will have to check for the impeller when I buy it.



They're 10w and 18w, not volts lol

[ShoNuff]

I would go for an Ultra with plexi top and using the top inlet...
I have heard from a VERY reliable source that it has nearly 50% higher pressure and flow rates, than the DDC Basic PRO also using top inlet...

It could be an IWAKI killer, but defiantly in series :)

The data will be published in 2-3 weeks due to holidays, but be prepared to be surprised because the ultra is a MONSTER :)
/Thomas

Thomas the results you referenced above are consistent with what I have been able to find. Can you tell us where we can expect to find these results when they are published?

If you have any influence on the testing it would be nice to see results for the tops (i.e., Radiical) with modded or 1/2" outlets and inlets.

[Thomas FJ]

Thomas the results you referenced above are consistent with what I have been able to find. Can you tell us where we can expect to find these results when they are published?

If you have any influence on the testing it would be nice to see results for the tops (i.e., Radiical) with modded or 1/2" outlets and inlets.

Well, I'm ahead of the news section on a Danish watercooling webstite www.h2okoeling.dk and we are so lucky that our owner, "MaGiX", who just have spent a decent jumb of money on test stations for watercooling.

We are working on getting our tests translated into English, but it takes time...
In any case here is a test with the DDC Normal/Basic in all it's formats:
http://h2okoeling.dk/?site=show&id=379

Same source the DDC Ultra test will come from :)
/Thomas

[Turok]

Just have in mind, that the moded one on the systemcooling picture is a 12mm OD barb, and the front is still 10mm OD...
This means you will have to run with different tubing sizes, if you chose to use a 12mmOD...
If you use a 10mmOD bard the performance increase wouldn't be the same...
/Thomas

Im aware of that.
I may take advantage of the limited space between the 7950GX2 to change the design from 1/2" fittings to 3/8" fittings for each blocks, and afther they exit, the tubes changes from 3/8" fittings to 7/16" or 1/2" fittings before entering the CPU.
On the first pump afther the T line, I will put a 1/2" fitting so its overwhelmed with water from the T-line and the MonsterCore. Then the outlet exits through the normal 3/8" tube. The second pump is connected with the outlet of the first one with a 3/8" tube and the second pump has a inlet fitting of 3/8". The outlet then goes on in a 3/8" fitting to the GPU blocks and becomes a 1/2" fitting when it reaches the CPU block until it reaches the 1/2" fitting MonsterCore.

9.5mm = 3/8" (DDC's default fitting)
11.1mm = 6/17" (The tubing I use for my loop)
12.7mm = 1/2" (My loop's fittings)

The loop will look something like this:

(Start)MonsterCore(1/2") -> 7/16" tube -> (1/2")T-line(1/2") -> 7/16" tube -> (1/2)DDC#1(3/8") -> 3/8" tube -> (3/8")DDC#2(3/8") -> (3/8")GPU#1(3/8") -> (3/8")GPU#2(3/8") -> 3/8" tube stretches to 1/2" -> (1/2")CPU block(1/2") -> 7/16" tube -> (1/2")MonsterCore(End)

I may change the CPU fittings from 1/2" to 7/16" if I find the fittings, so the change isnt so drastic.

I will have to buy thicker tubes for 3/8" so they look more like 7/16" tubes :p:
The only problem with this is that they will be very hard to bend :(
I will probably have to buy them just a bit thinner than the total diameter of the 7/16" tubes.

[kemist]

Turok, its very simple to pseudo mod the outlet to 1/2", just cut the flared part of the barb off (not the entire outlet barb just the flared part) ==|> cut where the | is on the diagram of the barb. Then at home depot you can find brass 1/2" dual barbed connectors that look like <<<|>>> which are made to connect two pieces of hose, the barbs ID matches the OD of the rest of the barb and will slide over the barb, if you put a bit of epoxy on the outside of the 3/8" ddc barb then slide the 1/2" barb over the ddc barb you will be good to go. Its been rumored its good to keep the outlet 3/8" as it is supposed to build head pressure. This mod keeps the 3/8" for pressure but for convenience hooks up to 1/2" tubing. Let me know if that needs clarified.

pics:

[nealh]

Well, I'm ahead of the news section on a Danish watercooling webstite www.h2okoeling.dk and we are so lucky that our owner, "MaGiX", who just have spent a decent jumb of money on test stations for watercooling.

We are working on getting our tests translated into English, but it takes time...
In any case here is a test with the DDC Normal/Basic in all it's formats:
http://h2okoeling.dk/?site=show&id=379

Same source the DDC Ultra test will come from :)
/Thomas


did you guys test a Radiical top for the DDC??

[Turok]

Turok, its very simple to pseudo mod the outlet to 1/2", just cut the flared part of the barb off (not the entire outlet barb just the flared part) ==|> cut where the | is on the diagram of the barb. Then at home depot you can find brass 1/2" dual barbed connectors that look like <<<|>>> which are made to connect two pieces of hose, the barbs ID matches the OD of the rest of the barb and will slide over the barb, if you put a bit of epoxy on the outside of the 3/8" ddc barb then slide the 1/2" barb over the ddc barb you will be good to go. Its been rumored its good to keep the outlet 3/8" as it is supposed to build head pressure. This mod keeps the 3/8" for pressure but for convenience hooks up to 1/2" tubing. Let me know if that needs clarified.

pics:

Wow, Thanks a lot man :up:
that will make things a lot easier for me :P
Good idea, since the OD from the fittings should be close to the ID of the fitting.
So I guess Ill make everything 1/2" fittings this way.

[AMDfreak]

get Iwaki made in japan..they are quieter than ones made in america

Any more insight as to the difference in noise between an American and Japanese version Iwaki?

[Hassan]

Do you think its worth it or is it easy enough that I should do it for myself?

Worth it and very easy with basic tools.

[epion2985]

no thats mostly it, the impeller housings are different and the americal one makes more noise. Or thats what an iwaki dealer told me. I was told by a few people that the american once run hotter, motor may be the same but it might be due to a less efficient design nuance somewhere, I dont know.

RD30 for the win.

[ReD.SkY]

bah us americans cant do nothing right ;P :p: :D

[Thomas FJ]

did you guys test a Radiical top for the DDC??

Nope, not yet but hopefully one day :)

But we have tested the Watercool Dual top here:
http://h2okoeling.dk/?site=show&id=440
/Thomas

[tw33ter]

That's cool, but they left the inlet with that 90 degree angle :slapass:

[Thomas FJ]

That's cool, but they left the inlet with that 90 degree angle :slapass:
What do you mean? :)
Linky please
/Thomas

[Turok]

What do you mean? :)
Linky please
/Thomas

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/630/dualddctop90degree1gt.jpg

Original pic:
http://www.h2okoeling.dk/images/articles/Dual_DDC_store/DSCF1964.JPG


They should of made it something like this:

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7100/ddcdualturok3kz.gif

[Thomas FJ]

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/630/dualddctop90degree1gt.jpg

Original pic:
http://www.h2okoeling.dk/images/articles/Dual_DDC_store/DSCF1964.JPG


They should of made it something like this:

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7100/ddcdualturok3kz.gif

Thanks for the explanation :toast:

Your suggestion is more or less a normal series config, which we also have tested here:
http://h2okoeling.dk/?site=show&id=461
CSP 750 Mark II, DDC Normal and DDC Normal Pro tested in series and parallel :)
/Thomas