View Full Version : MCW60 block became dirty AFTER vinegar
I cleaned my block (copper part) by running it through distilled and then submerging it in vinegar. When the block came out, it was as shiny as a new penny (or as shiny as a penny after you run it through ketchup). Ran it through distilled and brushed it gently with a new brush that I also ran through distilled. I reassembled the block and put plastic wrap on the bottom (the copper part where the die makes contact) so that my fingers wouldnt be able to touch it when I put the block back together. I left the plastic wrap on to prevent anything else to contaiminate the bottom copper. The next day (today) I looked at the block and its maybe as dirty or even dirtier than it was before I cleaned it with vinegar!
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/9346/dsc009736ik.th.jpg (http://img366.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc009736ik.jpg)
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9237/dsc009704yu.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc009704yu.jpg)
Is this normal?
EDIT: Sorry about the second pic. With the flash on, the light would reflect off the block and the picture would just show the flash. Without the flash the picture would always come out blurry.
yes, that's normal just copper oxidizing
Reinvented
06-23-2006, 12:20 PM
It will not hurt performance at all. :) If you are really worried about it, you can clean it with ketchup...but just don't RMA it like that one guy...
n00b 0f l337
06-23-2006, 12:24 PM
Ketchup will work, just pour it on and scrub with a tooth brush for 10-30 minutes. When I clean blocks I immediatly then put them in a zip lock baggy with distilled water to prevent this.
It will not hurt performance at all. :) If you are really worried about it, you can clean it with ketchup...but just don't RMA it like that one guy...
Id rather fix my own problems than paying shipping charges.
Is there anything wrong with the plastic wrap, can I keep it on there? Also, there seems to be some droplets (like 2 or 3 small-medium sized) that stained the bottom copper that makes contact the die area during the machining process. After I cleaned with vinegar (the point of great shiny-ness) the droplet stains didnt come off. I didnt want to scrub because I was afraid of tarnishing the flatness of the block. This wont hurt performance will it?
Ketchup will work, just pour it on and scrub with a tooth brush for 10-30 minutes. When I clean blocks I immediatly then put them in a zip lock baggy with distilled water to prevent this.
How long do you keep it in the bag?
Trice
06-23-2006, 12:38 PM
Here's my NEW MP-1 after ketchup
http://www.dmp-racing.com/king/mp1.jpg
Reinvented
06-23-2006, 12:40 PM
Until you need it usually.
Nothing is wrong with plastic wrap, but if it's not dried, the air cought between the plastic wrap and the base will get trapped and oxidization will occur. I cleaned mine with ketchup also...i disassembled them all, and soaked the bases in ketchup overnight, and they became spotless. It doesn't harm it, so when you are ready, you can just rinse it off, dry with a paper towel, and you'd be done. And again, it doesn't hurt performance, as it IS just tarnish...
Sneaky
06-23-2006, 03:22 PM
the block isn't dirty at all - the copper has just become oxidized
its nothing to worry about, any high-grade peice of high-purity copper will oxidize quickly like that, expecially if you wash it off with water and don't dry it off ASAP - it will react with the bare surface extremely fast if there is any air trapped near the water
but in all honesty, coming from the mouth of Cathar himself, the undisputed god of waterblocks, tarnish DOES NOT hurt waterblock/heatsink performance at all, so its fine to leave the tarnish there without cleaning it off, unless you're anal about aesthetics... even if the waterblock base points down ;)
ReD.SkY
06-23-2006, 04:40 PM
OT, but does silver do this too?
Bloody_Sorcerer
06-23-2006, 04:43 PM
silver tarnishes.
AFAIK, gold is the only metal that does nothing
Sneaky
06-23-2006, 04:55 PM
yes, silver tarnishes as well
ghent915
06-23-2006, 05:12 PM
Another option is to get a tupperware container, and some silica dessicate. You can find it at Spencers as amazing goo, or something like that.
Basically, you seal the newly cleaned block in the tub with the dessicate. The dessicate absorbs all the water that is in the sealed air, keeping your block dry, and un-tarnished until you're ready to use it.
And yes, as rediculous as it sounds, ketchup works quite well for cleaning copper.
-Ghent
n00b 0f l337
06-23-2006, 05:14 PM
Ketchups accidic I beleive, not that rediculous. Ducks can eat tree's for instance.
Gold doesnt tarnish, neither does aluminum.
I do not doubt the cleaning powers of ketchup on copper. Mainly because I always thought it was the acidity of the vinegar and salt in the ketchup that cleans the copper.
Only vinegar and salt helps clean copper (http://www.cruftbox.com/cruft/docs/cleaningcopper.html)
EDIT: Reading my own link answers my question.
Any university library will have the hard copy publication, if you are really interested in reading it. (Or I could send you a reprint.) But it is written for chemists, so you might not get much more out of the longer version than the abstract.
In water, under any conditions, salt breaks down into sodium ions and chloride ions. (Even in the solid, it is in that form, so it would be better to say that the water just allows the ions to separate.)
It's a little more complicated than that. The copper in the tarnish would be in the 2+ form. Chloride ions do not bond strongly to this form. However, they do bond fairly strongly to the 1+ form. A reaction that would be unfavorable in the absence of chloride ions, Cu + Cu2+ *--> 2Cu1+, becomes favorable when the chloride is present to tie up the Cu1+ form (as [CuCl2]-).
The first process can be viewed as transfer of an electron from Cu (metallic copper) to Cu2+. This is followed by reaction of the Cu1+ with the chloride. The resulting copper-chloride complex is soluble in water. It's the electron-transfer aspect of the chemistry (the conversion of metallic copper and the Cu2+, to Cu1+) that makes the role of the salt a little surprising.
It looks like vinegar + salt is the best mixture to get rid of tarnish. Would anyone discourage the use of this solution (vinegar + salt) on water blocks?
safan80
06-23-2006, 06:31 PM
...but just don't RMA it like that one guy...
the difference is he wasn't expecting this.. the problem I had was not a normal tarnish situation. DD had left the oil on it after drilling the SLI plugs. your just being a jerk. DD had send me out replacements before I woke the next day without me asking them to do so.
the thread is here
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=96882&highlight=customer+service
Id rather fix my own problems than paying shipping charges.
I didn't have to pay shipping changes DD sent shipping labels for me to use.
the thread is listed above.
I think I made it worse...
I put the block back into vinegar for a few hours and washed off with distilled and put it in a bag full of distilled water. The tarnish is VERY BAD. The bottom looks like if its corroding and the top is very dark. Sorry, no pics yet. I think I will keep it in the baggie and put it in the vinegar salt solution when I need it.
Reinvented
06-24-2006, 08:32 AM
Heh, you did so at your OWN risk, by not listening to us. That's okay...now you can probably fix it if you want by using ketchup...
Oh yes, Safan80, i'm just being a big 'ol mean jerk. Wasting DD's time with a simple tarnish problem you could have cleaned yourself. Your just lazy. And stop putting the blame on DD man. You contacted them about it, and complained because you didn't know what the heck it was.
Sneaky
06-24-2006, 09:53 AM
Gold doesnt tarnish, neither does aluminum.
aluminum does tarnish if its a raw surface... the surface oxidizes extremely quickly, thus why it doesn't look like it tarnishes unless you have polished a raw peice and then touch it with oily fingers
otherwise aluminum is often anodized, so that the raw aluminum surface isn't directly exposed, so tarnish can't occur to that
and DO NOT use salt and vinegar with high-purity copper blocks, did you know the salt reacts with vinegar to inhibit corrosion? especially iodized table salt, which has traces of aluminum in it (sea salt is pure salt without impurities)
just soak the block in vinegar for a few hours, or just ketchup, then wash it off in your sink with the hottest tap water that can come out, and then when its clean, just pat dry it on a towel, and use canned air to blow any excess water off of the block - the metal has become heated from the water, so the rest of the water will just evaporate off the surface
thats what soviets did with their AK's - they filled a bathtub of hot ass water, threw the guns in, washed them off, and pulled em out, shook off the water, and the rest evaporated because the metal was heated from sitting in the hot water bath
but to get ALL the crap on the block thats formed because of the use of salt and vinegar, I suggest you get some "bar keepers friend" which is similar to ajax, pour a bunch on the block, add a bit of water so that it forms a paste, and use a hard toothbrush to work it in and clean the block, let it sit for 10 minutes with the paste on it, then scrub some more, and wash it off using the hot water method above
and as far as the DD blocks with tarnish, I hate to bring this back up, but according to you "its not normal for blocks to be tarnished when you buy them"
well, when you buy a car, is it "normal" to have a few rust spots on the chassis of the car? yeah!
Sneaky,
I did not use the vinegar and salt solution. It looks like everytime I put it into vinegar (sit in vinegar for a few hours and wash off with distilled), the worse and worse the tarnish gets. However, I only did this twice.
ReD.SkY
06-24-2006, 03:34 PM
what vinegar u using?
Trice
06-24-2006, 04:09 PM
Use distilled white vinegar....
ReD.SkY
06-24-2006, 04:11 PM
i used that and my block are nice and shiney
Sneaky
06-24-2006, 04:43 PM
if vinegar has failed, then definitely try the Bar Keepers Friend technique I posted above
I have been using distilled white vinegar from safeway.
I dont think I am going to try anything else until I need the block. Most of the oxidation occurs, at least for me, overnight. If I use/mount the block right when I finish cleaning it the oxidation wont occur or I wont see it. What I dont see cant hurt me, especially since Cathar knows that tarnish wont hurt temperatures.