Conroe boards: spi flash device will know about oc

[kiwi]

Many new motherboards supporting Conroe cpus don't come with regular bios chips anymore. Instead, the are using spi flash device to store bios and other settings.

Now if your board refuses to boot in normal mode after overclocking, your previos settings will be saved and you won't be able to reset them normally, even after removing battery. SPI is soldered to the board and you can't simply take it out and flash new bios.

This means, if your board is good enough to enter bios config mode using jumper, all your settings will be shown. So, this might be interesting if you would like to RMA your board

[Haltech]

Than why would they bother to allow overclocking? Especially when they are claiming it in their product description? I can see heavy hitting mb companies doing this with enthusiast boards, unless they want to lose customers.

[Cooper]

So you mean there won`t be any CMOS clearance options ? Sounds kinda silly.
SPI isn`t new chip - it`s just new interface instead of FWH. Chips themself still using flash memory. Perhaps there`s an option allowing to safe new settings even w/o checking them, but I highly doubt that. I remember about a year ago some info about new BIOS chips from Intel.


Most surprisingly, however, Intel apparently rethought the way how BIOS is implemented into the motherboard and how the system accesses it. While the BIOS today is stored in ROM or NOR Flash chips, the ICH8 will be able to connect to a BIOS stored in NAND Flash: In addition to simply holding the BIOS, the memory will be programmable and even be capable of holding applications and control more features of the motherboard. Think of it as much more functional core software that not only initializes hardware components, but takes over more system features. In this light, Intel's decision to create a NAND Flash joint venture with Micron begins to make sense - as Intel said that it intends to use the NAND Flash not only to supply Apple, but also for its own devices.

Kiwi
Any more info on your statement would be greatly appreciated.

[XS Janus]

I would be very sorry if that was true as 60% of all hardware PC problems are "repaired" by Clear CMOS :(

However wouldn't this mean that they could make BIOS more error proof, something like a dual bios that would alow you to pick from a couple of past settings or restore points if you will??
________
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[zert]

I remember about a year ago some info about new BIOS chips
isn't that the discription of EFI ?

[Cooper]

isn't that the discription of EFI ?

Yeah something like that.

[Helmore]

I thought EFI wouldn´t work with win XP, you need Vista of the Apple thingy for it. Oh and EFI would completely eliminate the need for a bios, as it will be managed some other way. This will decrease boot times and make it more flexible. At least thats what I heard.

[iboomalot]

Iam thinking of Conroe on next system but if they start the big brother approach then I might stick it out till K8L hits.

Iam not a fan of restrictions "cold bug" thus thinking of switching to Intel

[mesyn191]

Wow that is spectacularly retarded of them....

So any time you OC to much and the PC refuses to boot its RMA time....

[theteamaqua]

wait so deos that mean no OCing for Conroe?? without clock gen ..

what about MSI paltinum 2.b and 975 XBX???

[kurg]

Crikey, he's not saying you can't OC. That would be retarded.


He's saying if you OC and then can't get the board to boot, they would know (when they got the broken board) that you tried to OC it (hypothetically).

Really not a big deal, in fact pretty meaningless.

[brandinb]

Crikey, he's not saying you can't OC. That would be retarded.


He's saying if you OC and then can't get the board to boot, they would know (when they got the broken board) that you tried to OC it (hypothetically).

Really not a big deal, in fact pretty meaningless.

yeah if they give you the option in the bios what are they going to say about you using it rofl!

[jdam]

yeah if they give you the option in the bios what are they going to say about you using it rofl!

they also say it isnt their fault if anything goes wrong and you destroy something. At own risk. I don't think it will come that far that they will actually use thins against the customer, they will dig their own grave if they do.

[kiwi]

Yes, OC options are there but if you use them manufacturer does not warranty.

Look at this OC options screen (made by OPB :D) of Intel 975 board bios, half page warning :D
http://www.ocxtreme.org/onepagebook/i975xbxoc/i975xbx06.jpg


So you mean there won`t be any CMOS clearance options ?
Kiwi
Any more info on your statement would be greatly appreciated.

There are 3 options using one jumper
* normal mode
* config mode (same as temporarily reset bios)
* rescue mode


You can always get in config mode because bios loads defaults and you can change values back and save them. But that does not always work and if that is the case all options remain there and there is no easy way to reset options.

This has happened to me already with my Conroe. I then put celeron cpu, another ram, psu etc and guess what do I see in config mode, my old oc settings, all of them :D And I was not able to change them back with celeron either

[Cooper]

So this applies to Intel chipset based boards only ?
Or ATI and NV have same issue ?

kiwi you have badaxe board ? And now you can`t change any option in BIOS ?
There must be a way to eliminate this proble. All of those already set records on Conroe - I highly doubt they were done w/o several cases when board refused to boot.

[kiwi]

I think it depends whether they use regular bios chips or spi, maybe some chipsets can't use spi, I don't know really but Intel chipsets certainly use it



Yep, I have bad axe and can't change anything after board failed to boot normal
If you have no post at all due to oc settings, then usually you can reset to normal. But if you have a post but stuck at some point, in my case post code 5A (Resetting PATA/SATA bus and all devices) then clearing bios options might be a big problem.

[mesyn191]

Isn't there some way to use rescue mode with the ITK to reset the BIOS? I could've sworn FCG mentioned it somewhere...

[jVIDIA]

But this is only in the Intel brand boards or is it going to be also in ALL intel chipset boards like the Asus P5B Deluxe ?

If so this is stupid because of the news Asus feature is the new mobos :

O.C. Profile

Conveniently store or load multiple BIOS settings

Freely share and distribute favorite overclocking settings

The motherboard features the ASUS O.C. Profile that allows users to conveniently store or load multiple BIOS settings.

[mesyn191]

So far its only on the Bad Axe rev. 304 but I'd expect more of them to do it.

[steelballzz]

On a side note.... so what if they do? You take a chance when you overclock, sometimes even violate the terms of the warranty in the process. So the people who are :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:ing are basically saying "With this in place I can't lie about what I've done with my system when I try and get them to replace it for free, even though blowing up the system was the risk that I took.

man...i tottaly disagree
how many times do u have to clear cmos.....
could this means that when i fail a setting in bios i will void my warranty....or the manufacter can deny rma of a product....cause i was 20 mhz above stock

this false moralism gets into my nerves

[steelballzz]

i am sorry man
i thought i was on extreme systems.....where overclock is the king....and this could be a major concern...to those who overclock

my mystake

[freecableguy]

First.... just cause this this an "overclocking" site, doesn't mean that you are beyond the "law," for lack of a better phrase. Being an enthusist doesn't give you a pass on responsibility for your actions.

Second... the only thing that companies may start doing is logging your settings. If Asus, Abit, etc give the option to overclock, they aren't going to make it so you can't change the settings or clear CMOS. They would just get rid of overclocking options at this point since you always have to do this while overclocking. If the only thing they do is log your information, possibly for warrenty denial, are you going to argue that they shouldn't deny your RMA if you fry the board becuase you put too much voltage to the MCH?

board makers should not allow options to be selected that can cause a board to fail. example, you build a stereo system and you allow the volumn knob to be turned to a point where the speakers blow out. who's fault is that? the user's or the designer's. my answer, the designer's. moral of the story, don't sell something you aren't willing to back, especially if you plan on marketing it as an "enthusiast overlocking" board.

-FCG

[Cooper]

I don`t understand where you`re pointing at Poncho, but this is trouble for us OCers. And we do need to get this issue fixed.
Boy I thought there`s already some reasonable explanation on this matter and probably a fix, but all I found is useless discussion about some sort of "logging settings" which really sounds pointless from any side.
And this is NOT "an "overclocking" forum" - this is XS.

[steelballzz]

doesn't mean that you are beyond the "law," for lack of a better phrase. Being an enthusist doesn't give you a pass on responsibility for your actions.

ok
now i am an outlaw
lol
ok mister i-will-not-change-a-single-setting-in-bios
no one said the i will pass my responsability.....but as you know....i hope....sometimes doesnt need a big overclock...or even overclock at all to screw up ......just a simple ram changing could need a clear cmos.....if you cant do that...and need to sent it back to rma....doesnt sounds like a good thing to me....but i am an outlaw:D
dont get so "by the book";) ....just talking about a feature that can cause troubles to overclokers
dont go calling "outlaw"....its not nice :stick:

best regards

[freecableguy]

Regarding your analogy, the speakers are NOT a part of the head unit/amp so if you go beyond the recommendations of the speakers, then it's your fault. Now, if the speakers are within spec of the head unit/amp and they blow, sure they get replaced.... and they usually do. Beyond that... this is an apples and oranges comparison.

You and I both know that some of the options that board makers give you can and do push the limits of the parts, they do this so people like you can get to the extreme limits of the CPU, Memory, Etc and most of these settings have HUGE disclaimers on them, limiting the liability of the manufacturer. You agree to this when you buy the board... don't like it, buy one that doesn't limit your actions should you break your board.

why are you nit-picking what i said? look, forget the head unit/amp/speaker example that you seem to think that i am talking about. a freaking boombox, whatever you want it to be. or how about the STOCK unit in a car. STOCK speakers, STOCK head unit, STOCK amp, whatever. you get the picture. i thought i made that pretty clear...way to tap dance around my simple question.

[Torin]

I think all Poncho is trying to say is that if you push any piece of hardware beyond it's specs and break it, you should take responsibility for your actions and not try to RMA a board that you broke. If you are taking responsibility for your actions, and this is a moral decision every person has to make, then you have no need to worry about whether or not settings are stored in the BIOS. A lot of computer part manufacturers understand that hardware is going to get pushed beyond spec, and will even let you RMA their hardware if pushed past spec and broke, but there is a line to be drawn between moderately past spec and so extremely past spec that the mosfets blew up. If you try to RMA a board that you abused and were personally responsible for breaking, then you deserve to have them look into the BIOS, see that you had the CPU voltage set to something crazy retarded, and not give you a free board.

No one is advocating that here of all places, that people should not overclock or change BIOS settings beyond spec, just that you should take responsibility if you broke it, rather than claiming it is faulty hardware.

But being reasonable about it, if you pushed a board 10% past spec in CPU voltage and somehow fried the socket, then you'd probably be within your right to call that faulty hardware and RMA it. This is all a big gray area, and I've yet to hear of any hardware company not honor an RMA because of something like this. You return a board that has no physical signs of abuse, and you should be fine. You return a board with burned out MOSFETs, then expect for them to return it back to you. :) People need to keep in mind that O/Cing, especially extreme enough OCing to break a piece of hardware (not through ignorance... like duh, I didn't know I wasn't supposed to put 2.3V through my Opt 165) accounts for such a small small small small small percentage of RMAs, that most if not all hardware makers would just take the loss to preserve their rep. They probably don't care about replacing 1 in 2000 boards because some overclocker was pushing trying to push his memory to 1400Mhz and accidentally fried a VDIMM capacitor. :)

[Cooper]

This is going total offtopic.
Poncho if you want to discuss that farther take it to computer related open discussions.
Back to the topic. Anyone else with BadAxe noticed this strange behaviour ? Perhaps there`s simple solution to this problem ? We do need our board back :D And imo many others would also like to know the cause of this

[^don.k's^]

I don't think that using something for what the board was designed would void warranty. End of story.

One thing is overclocking, and another is vmod, vmod voids warranty, isnt moral to void warranty if bios allows that from stock...

[kiwi]

I think people are making a bigger deal out of it then they should. Somebody heard a rumor that you won't be able to clear CMOS with SPI devices. Guess what... that's NOT true. SPI isn't some type of big brother TPM/DRM locking you out of your MP3s, cook your nuts while you sleep device. It's a flash part, with higher capicity, but a flash part nonetheless. Clearing CMOS will still be there. If the board allows overclocking then you'll still be able to overclock, and clear CMOS if it locks up. I'm simply stating that what MAY, and I stress MAY, happen is some type of data logging to assit in RMAing, or denial of RMA as the case may be.

I have a real world example where board does not allow to clear cmos permanently and all my settings can be seen :) Sure, you can easily clear it as long as board is normally functioning

[mesyn191]

You're full of crap Poncho. How in the hell can you defend a design decision that means you're out $200+ if you screw up a little bit in config. the BIOS which is all to easy to do if you don't know the limits of your chip or the mobo? You work or get paid by Intel to write crap like that?

They could've implemented some sort of command logging feature with a regular BIOS and still allow clearing the BIOS by putting the SPI flash device seperate from a standard BIOS chip if they were so concerned about thier warranty.

Having a clear CMOS feature is damn important on a OC motherboard as its very easy to make one non-bootable during testing but not physically damage the mobo.

[mesyn191]

You wanna point out exactly where that clear CMOS option is on the Bad Axe rev. 304?

[steelballzz]

Bottom line... people are panicking and getting their panties in a bunch over a non-issue.
as far as i can remember no one is panicking......
a forum member brought the issue to discussion...and we were doing it.....until someone came and told us ....ppl who overclock....that if we do it we void warranty and stuff like that.....
i wonder if in one of your lockups the mobo didnt boot again no matter what if you will do the rma anyway

;)

enough off topic for me

[alexio]

If the board dies and you know it wasn't your faulth just kill the EEPROM with static electricity. Use the shock thing from an electric lighter and give a shock to one of the pins, or more to be safe.

Atleast this is what i would do if they advertise with overclocking, but the warranty doesn't cover it.

[freecableguy]

Ummm.... I've locked up my Bad Axe overclocking easily 30+ times and never once not been able to get out of it. Granted, it's a bit annoying to have to move the jumper, but not life or death.

Here's what you do if it didn't like your settings....

-power down and move jumper
-start back up and change settings
-power down and move jumper back
-rinse and repeat

Oh... and before you say anything about me not going far enough on my overclock to be an issue, I had EVERYTHING on max voltage and was still able to go back to normal.

Bottom line... people are panicking and getting their panties in a bunch over a non-issue.

The clear CMOS jumper does not exist on the Bad Axe. What you are describing is entering Maintenance Mode which, as we all know, simply allows you to boot with all DEFAULT settings temporarily so that you can change a setting that prevented boot.

Actually, if you want to be technical, immediately to the right of the battery you will see an empty set of three solder pads marked "CLR CMOS" where a 3-pin header (for jumper) could be installed to allow for quickly clearning the CMOS. Right now the only way to do this is to either short those two points for a few seconds or to remove the battery.

Seems this option was intended for lab testing only as it is just like the "OC DEBUG" header....component install area is there but nothing is inserted in the final production board.

-FCG

[gone_fishin]

Simple, if you want to RMA and are paranoid about hidden data in the newer huge memory area of this newer BIOS, simply pull the battery before returning.

[alexio]

And I'm curious as to how you would know what caused the board to die? How would you know that it wasn't your fault? Believe me.... most, not all but most, of the problems with dead hardware can be attributed to user error in some way.

I said "if you know", not "if you think". If the board dies with a moderate overclock and "safe" voltages while playing a game, then in my opinion it isn't your fault.

I NEVER RMA anything if I'm not 100% sure it wasn't my own fault. If a company advertises with overclocking the board should be able to handle this, unless ofcourse when you are running on the edge with high voltages.

[sparkie34]

Actually, if you want to be technical, immediately to the right of the battery you will see an empty set of three solder pads marked "CLR CMOS" where a 3-pin header (for jumper) could be installed to allow for quickly clearning the CMOS. Right now the only way to do this is to either short those two points for a few seconds or to remove the battery.


-FCG


Exactly what I was thinking. I've cleared my cmos a couple of times this way. I don't see what the issue is.:confused:

[mesyn191]

Ummm.... I've locked up my Bad Axe overclocking easily 30+ times and never once not been able to get out of it. Granted, it's a bit annoying to have to move the jumper, but not life or death.

Here's what you do if it didn't like your settings....

-power down and move jumper
-start back up and change settings
-power down and move jumper back
-rinse and repeat

Oh... and before you say anything about me not going far enough on my overclock to be an issue, I had EVERYTHING on max voltage and was still able to go back to normal.

Bottom line... people are panicking and getting their panties in a bunch over a non-issue.

Have you even been reading the same thread as us?

We're talking about what happens when the mobo is rendered unbootable, if you can't even boot it how in the hell are you going to be able to change any settings? Wether or not you had everything at max and/or the board locked up on you is a non sequiter, we're talking about the board being unbootable, or do you not understand what that means? Having everything at max settings doesn't even come into it...

I also don't see where you get off making it out as if I'm whining about moving a jumper, ecspecially since this whole argument centers around being able to clear the CMOS which requires that you move a jumper in the first place.

[mesyn191]

Exactly what I was thinking. I've cleared my cmos a couple of times this way. I don't see what the issue is.:confused:

From what OP has said in the original post it appeared that you couldn't clear the CMOS no matter what. If all you have to do is remove the battery than yea that is no big deal and I'd retract any statements I've said so far, but not the argument that being able to clear the CMOS is important and necessary to have on all mobos, ecspecially ones that are used for OC'ing.

[sparkie34]

I quoted FCG because he said you can short the cmos pins manually. That is what I have done personally. The OP said he pulled the battery, he said nothing about trying to short the clear cmos solder points on the main. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[Johnny Sack]

How about the customers always right? Remeber all those years the mobo makers screwed over everyone with bad caps? I think we need better Q&A with the BIOSes before they ship. Why do we get updates years later?

[sierra_bound]

Removing the battery for 30 seconds will clear everything in the BIOS, including the date and time settings. At least it does on my board. Maintenance Mode takes some getting used to, but I can see the advantages of having it.

I'm not sure what's causing kiwi's problem. Could be a partially corrupted BIOS. So far, I haven't experienced any problems going from Maintenance to Normal Mode.

[Tony]

There will be a way to clear cmos, or write all zero's to it. Also cmos is not on the bios chip, it is usually on the SB or chipset so clearing this from safe mode needs nothing more than a dos app.

[ea6gka]

Removing the battery for 30 seconds will clear everything in the BIOS, including the date and time settings. At least it does on my board. Maintenance Mode takes some getting used to, but I can see the advantages of having it.

I'm not sure what's causing kiwi's problem. Could be a partially corrupted BIOS. So far, I haven't experienced any problems going from Maintenance to Normal Mode.

in my BAD axe even if i remove the battery for 5 mins it keeps all the settings but the date and time. its a 304 rev.

i am thinking to solder 3 pins in the CLEAR CMOS and use a jumper there , just like i did to inlock the bios...just for ease of use tbh