How would these cooling setups compare?

[vegabros]

Just wanted to know how much more effective water-cooling is to air-cooling. Since I build (starting to) PC for customers, I wanted to know how highly I should be recommending WC'ing over AC'ing.

How would these two setups compare?

1) Water Cooling Setup: Apogee, MCW60, MCW30, MCR220, DDC12Pro = $300

2) Air Cooling Setup: Zalman CNP9500, VF700-Cu, Heatsink (for NB chipset) = $110

Without OC'ing, would there be a big difference in temps? If so, estimate by how much.

What about noise, would it be a big difference too?

Thanks!
Leo

[timpanogos]

Without OC'ing
3) stock HSF = 0$

spending a fortune on your rig ---- almost priceless

[Grinch]

I went from air to water a couple of months ago and I can tell you that to me as an overclocker it is 100% worth it..the difference between idle and load on air is 25-40F...on water it is 10-15F....and best of all quiet. Water is harder to do than air but the feeling of satisfaction you get when the project is complete is priceless. If I were you I would go with the Storm block versus the Apogee...some website show them being equals...but that is not the case. Anyways I don't know if i helped you at all but the bottom line for me...air vs water.....water wins.:woot: :toast: :banana: :clap:

[timpanogos]

vega, don't get scared off the w/c. If you are building a system for pure quite and don't care about oc (i.e. home entertainment center) - your answer is water. If you want to oc - your answer is water. If you just want a stock home computer - no oc - no hassels - dell is your answer. If you like to build your own, want to save some money - but not oc - stock hsf.

[Fresh Daemon]

Since I build (starting to) PC for customers, I wanted to know how highly I should be recommending WC'ing over AC'ing.

Waitaminute. This is for customers? Don't let them go to watercooling. If they're letting someone else build a rig for them, that means they don't know much about computers, so they certainly won't be able to bleed and clean the loop every 6 months - 1 year, so it's going to break down, leak, and they're going to blame you.

When building rigs for others, stick to air. If they were capable of handling water they would have built their own.

[Jochenp]

Well, what about kits like the Zalman Resorator? I know they suck, but it's better than air, and rich pc noobs could have some use from them (dead silent and that stuff).

[andersson.j]

vega, don't get scared off the w/c. If you are building a system for pure quite and don't care about oc (i.e. home entertainment center) - your answer is water. If you want to oc - your answer is water. If you just want a stock home computer - no oc - no hassels - dell is your answer. If you like to build your own, want to save some money - but not oc - stock hsf.
If you want silence or silence and OC water is the way to go. But if OC is the only thing that matters phase change is the way to go. Phase change would also be better to sell to customers since it doesn't require as much maintenance.

[vegabros]

Yeah, as for my rig, I don't care. But I kept thinking about my customers. I have a few who want "super gaming" systems, but I wasn't sure about recommending water. Like Fresh mentioned, how will they maintain it?

Unless I offer a $$ maintenance plan :)

But then they are going to ask me, "is it SUCH a big difference going from air to water?". And I wouldn't know what to tell them.

I did build a stock PC and with 3 nice fans, it was nice a warm inside. So I will definitely go pro-air cooling or water cooling.

[Hystrix^]

Why would you buy watercooling for non oc'ing pc?Btw what's your system info?

[andersson.j]

You could design a wc system that's easy to maintain. Something that indicates the current water level (a tank) so they know when they have to top it off, and a filter between the loop and fillport so no crap end's up in the loop. Maybe an "emptyport" at the bottom for easy emptying. If you clean all the components, or at least the radiator you won't need to do any major operations like changing hoses for a couple of years. Include a manual and 5 liters of premixed destilled + zerex and nothing can go wrong!

Altough I bet you will see a lot more RMA claims if you sell prewatercooled computers. :)

[-aDaM^]

Just wanted to know how much more effective water-cooling is to air-cooling. Since I build (starting to) PC for customers, I wanted to know how highly I should be recommending WC'ing over AC'ing.

How would these two setups compare?

1) Water Cooling Setup: Apogee, MCW60, MCW30, MCR220, DDC12Pro = $300

2) Air Cooling Setup: Zalman CNP9500, VF700-Cu, Heatsink (for NB chipset) = $110

Without OC'ing, would there be a big difference in temps? If so, estimate by how much.

What about noise, would it be a big difference too?

Thanks!
Leo

Tisk Tisk.... :slapass: I wouldn't want somone building me a computer that didn't know this stuff :nono:

[Fresh Daemon]

Have you thought about using Koolance? They are designed for what you are looking for - maintenance-free operation for years, with no maintenance necessary beyond blowing the dust out of the rad every so often. If you were doing this enough you could probably arrange a bulk discount on their kits and cases.

No, it isn't going to perform as well as a custom rig, but Koolance will still perform as well as or better than the best air-cooling and also be quieter. But a custom rig needs a lot more work.

[Torin]

A properly built W/C system does not need much maintenance. Long term, the only maintenance you will need to do is blow dust out of the radiator, and keep the loop full. Over long periods of time, water will evaporate out of your loop, and will occasionally need to be refilled. My loop has been going for about 2 years now, and I've had to refill water in it once, and clean dust out of the rad 3 times. These are all easy things to maintain, something anyone could do, but the client needs to be comfortable with that.

Another thing to consider is that upgrading when you have W/C takes a considerable bit more planning to do. It is not as easy as air where you can take out video card out and pop another in. Same with the CPU. Since you have a block attached to it, and that block connects to hoses and whatnot, some care needs to be taken. The client should be aware of this too.

Overall, assuming no upgrading is being done by the client, maintenance is very minimal if constructed properly.

And on the topic of noise, a W/C setup can be significantly quieter. Both setups will use fans, but you can use very big, thick, quiet fans to cool the radiator, rather than a noisy 90mm. Plus, with an air setup, you get compounded noise from the CPU, case fans, GPU fan(s), etc. With water cooling, you can get by with just the fan(s) on the radiator... all depends on how you set it up.

Another thing to keep in mind is the portability of a W/C'd computer, as obviously they are more fragile to move, and weigh more. All concerns you should relay to a client before getting them involved in W/Cing.

[vegabros]

Tisk Tisk.... I wouldn't want somone building me a computer that didn't know this stuff

Well I did say I was just STARTING... I can build PC's with ease, but seting up a water-cooled setup is a different story.

What pushed me into it was seeing how Alienware and a few others use water-cooling. So I figured I best get up to speed with the latest tech.

I definitely want some kind of better cooling for the GPU. A 7600GT running a stock HSF and in a well ventilated case was idling at 53C. I can just imagine the load temp. Plus the fact that many people want the 7900GT (which can get even hotter) has pushed me into this direction.

I wonder how Alienware does it, do they expect there customers to actually change the tubes atleast once a year and clean the blocks?

As far as my system info (here's mine, but obviously it will vary on customer needs and budget):

AMD Athlon 64 3500+
Asus A8N-SLI Premium
2 GIG Corsair XMS
eVga 7900GT
Sony Combo Drive
80 gig Seagata SATA II
Antec TruePowerII 550W

The problem with koolance is the price. The radiator/pump is $300 with zero blocks. So add the blocks and some misc stuff and we're passed $400.

Now, why would a Koolance require less maintenance? Unless it uses filters and such.

Torin: Thanks for the info. So with quality tubing like Tygon, you don't see the need to change the tubes once a year? And when you say clean the dust from the radiator, thats just using a air can right?

[creidiki]

Why would you buy watercooling for non oc'ing pc?Btw what's your system info?
For silence? I know i wouldnt have bothered with water if it wasnt for the noise factor.

[Torin]

I wonder how Alienware does it, do they expect there customers to actually change the tubes atleast once a year and clean the blocks?
Something similiar to Koolance, if not Koolance.

You don't need to change tubes or clean blocks if you use clean water in your loop and have no way for dust and other crap to enter your loop. Like I said, the only maintenance you could need is to add water to replace what has evaporated, and to dust out the radiator.

Koolance is probably the most maintenance free option, but doesn't offer much better cooling than air. A custom water setup would, but has some minimal maintenance.

[creidiki]

All watercooling has maintenace, its just that the people who buy koolance dont know better and dont realize whats happening when their :banana::banana::banana::banana:ty loops start cooling worse than air after 2 years =p

[andersson.j]

Non transparent tubes, water with enough additives to kill a horse, a reliable pump and a tank with a fair amount of water which act as a buffert so you don't need to refill very often shouldn't need any maintenance for like three years. No corrosion, no algee and very few top offs.

Hardline it like intel and you won't have to top off. ;)

I wouldn't count blowing the air out of the rad as a wc only problem since you need to do the same thing with aircooling.

[vegabros]

Something just occured to me...

Since my cpu is not over-heating (with the stock fan I was getting like 32C idle) and I'm not OC'ing it. Would it be wise to just slap on a Zalman 9500 and just water cool my gpu (the main heat issue)?

Wouldn't this require a simpler system?

I would use a single rad with 3/8" tygon tubing with a Swiftech MCR60 block. The pump can be a DDC12Pro or water.

Although it probably wouldn't make it any easier to maintain lol...

BTW, don't those additives end up gunking up the blocks?

[JoeBar]

WC both and get rid of air cooling...

[andersson.j]

BTW, don't those additives end up gunking up the blocks?
A GPU only loop wouldn't be much easier to build nor maintain than a CPU + GPU loop. If you want better cooling for your GPU but don't want to go wc, why not use a VF900 or some other aftermarket cooler? High end aircooling should be enough for gamers. It's overclockers and silent freaks who need water.

Many additives tend to sepparate from the water, especially when jusing blocks with jets like storm, mp-05 and nexxxos xp. Zerex seems to work fine, although if you use too much it will probably clog too.

[creidiki]

Yeah, dont use more than 5% zerex in an all-copper loop and 15% in a mixed-metal loop.

[vegabros]

I'm using all swiftech blocks (Apogee, MCW60, MCW30) and either a BIGT220 or a MCR220. I'm assuming that is a all coper loop correct?

[creidiki]

Yes

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

any properly built loop will be maintenance free, at least for a very long time. Heck, my loop, which isn't so properly built (i didn't clean the rad as is now common; this was before maxxx had his radiator revelations) hasn't needed any maintenance yet... i built it last august. thats what, 9 months? i haven't even changed the water or anything!

[creidiki]

9 months is once thing, 2 years is something else. Especially with the koolance pumps.

with an iwaki i wouldnt worry about letting it go for 12 months.