Better thermal interface for extreme coldness.

[jinu117]

Some of you do know that I have load tester with k-type in it between surface and heat element (about 1mm away from surface and 1mm away from heat element).
Under typical single stage I see delta of 3c between this and evap for 50w load (what I project as windows idle). Once I kick up to 150w this delta goes to 9-13c (what I would consider as extreme overclocking temperature)
Now on cascade, this delta gets even bigger... 50w was about 8c, 150w about 25c. It's amazing how inefficient the tim I am using when temp gets colder and colder. (Ceramique for time being)
Anyone familiar with better tim than this?

[epion2985]

there was a strange german compound posted a while back, I think it was in the water cooling section. After testing though a few things were discovered. It does work better but it eats though aluminum like acid and it does etch itself in to the copper block and the cpu IHS. Kind of a permanent solution and it doesnt like aluminum. Forget where the thread is, but maybe you can ask Maxxracer, he might remember he posted in that thread.

[jinu117]

there was a strange german compound posted a while back, I think it was in the water cooling section. After testing though a few things were discovered. It does work better but it eats though aluminum like acid and it does etch itself in to the copper block and the cpu IHS. Kind of a permanent solution and it doesnt like aluminum. Forget where the thread is, but maybe you can ask Maxxracer, he might remember he posted in that thread.

Actually I do know what you are talking about. it is a liquid metal thermal interface material basically. I forget the name but certain compostion of this metal makes it very soft under high temperature... molds into shape (filling groove) and once it sets in, very efficient compared to most thermal paste we have. It was discovered though, it hates aluminum like there is no tomorrow. Not sure how brittile it gets in extreme temperature though. Maybe I should give it a shot with some old cpu I have here... since there really isn't aluminum on evap. (yes I seem to spend too much time researching new things... overclockers.com was the first place to mention about it IIRC while back in last year)
Is there something more traditional around though?

[wdrzal]

could be the copper, thermal conduction drops as the temperature drops while electrical conduction rises. IIRC;)

[epion2985]

Chilly needs to make a silver evap. Not a huge improvement but it helps.

[wdrzal]

Chilly needs to make a silver evap. Not a huge improvement but it helps.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=73257&highlight=silver+evap

[epion2985]

Yeah I know, but that really never went anywhere. Still waiting to see any updates or any progress.

By the way Walt, does silver's thermal conductivity decreases as bad as copper's as the operating temperature drops?

[wdrzal]

you would have to consult its gradient but I would suspect it would be relitive since they are liner

[Jort]

Yeah I know, but that really never went anywhere. Still waiting to see any updates or any progress.

By the way Walt, does silver's thermal conductivity decreases as bad as copper's as the operating temperature drops?

wait a little longer;) it will be worthed:)

:D

[Dumo]

Heres ask for samples....http://www.aosco.com/products/heat_sink/nonsilicone_chart.shtml

[n00b 0f l337]

Try out the heatsink compound at radioshack. Worthless for hot temps, but great for cold.

[s7e9h3n]

Indium

[Weee]

Indium

Yeah, we use indium foil or an alloy called grafoil from lakeshore. When sufficient pressure is applied (I think it's like 300 psi) the foil liquifies at room temp and does a good job filling the groves. It takes a special spring loaded screw down crush plate to apply sufficient pressure, with appropriate standoff height so as not to break the ceramic package.

We use this in our LN2 dewars as an interface between the cold finger and DUT at work. Gives us imagers operating at some <90K temps, pretty fun.

[wdrzal]

IIRC the best thermal conduction substance in the world is a isotope of helium. I thinks its hellium II as a supercritical fluid. IIRC it only exists at at a few kelvin.

[n00b 0f l337]

helium2 = tritium I beleive.
2 xtra neutrons. Its 500,000$USD for a gram and is used in hydrogen atomics (h-bombs) and double stage nukes.

[Weee]

sorry, hydrogen != helium...

borrowed from wikipedia


Helium I state
Below its boiling point of 4.21 kelvins and above the lambda point of 2.1768 kelvins, the isotope helium-4 exists in a normal colorless liquid state, called helium I. Like other cryogenic liquids, helium I boils when heat is added to it. It also contracts when its temperature is lowered until it reaches the lambda point, when it stops boiling and suddenly expands. The rate of expansion decreases below the lambda point until about 1 K is reached; at which point expansion completely stops and helium I starts to contract again.

Helium I has a gas-like index of refraction of 1.026 which makes its surface so hard to see that floats of Styrofoam are often used to show where the surface is. This colorless liquid has a very low viscosity and a density 1/8th that of water, which is only 1/4th the value expected from classical physics. Quantum mechanics is needed to explain this property and thus both types of liquid helium are called quantum fluids, meaning they display atomic properties on a macroscopic scale. This is probably due to its boiling point being so close to absolute zero, which prevents random molecular motion (heat) from masking the atomic properties.

[edit]
Helium II state
Liquid helium below its lambda point begins to exhibit very unusual characteristics, in a state called helium II. Boiling of helium II is not possible due to its high thermal conductivity; heat input instead causes evaporation of the liquid directly to gas. The isotope helium-3 also has a superfluid phase, but only at much lower temperatures; as a result, less is known about such properties in the isotope helium-3.


Helium II will "creep" along surfaces in order to find its own level - after a short while, the levels in the two containers will equalize. The Rollin film also covers the interior of the larger container; if it were not sealed, the helium II would creep out and escape.Helium II is a superfluid, a quantum-mechanical state of matter with strange properties. For example, when it flows through even capillaries of 10-7 to 10-8 m width it has no measurable viscosity. However, when measurements were done between two moving discs, a viscosity comparable to that of gaseous helium was observed. Current theory explains this using the two-fluid model for Helium II. In this model, liquid helium below the lambda point is viewed as containing a proportion of helium atoms in a ground state, which are superfluid and flow with exactly zero viscosity, and a proportion of helium atoms in an excited state, which behave more like an ordinary fluid.

Helium II also exhibits a "creeping" effect. When a surface extends past the level of helium II, the helium II moves along the surface, seemingly against the force of gravity. Helium II will escape from a vessel that is not sealed by creeping along the sides until it reaches a warmer region where it evaporates. It moves in a 30 nm thick film regardless of surface material. This film is called a Rollin film and is named after the man who first characterized this trait, B. V. Rollin. As a result of this creeping behavior and helium II's ability to leak rapidly through tiny openings, it is very difficult to confine liquid helium. Unless the container is carefully constructed, the helium II will creep along the surfaces and through valves until it reaches somewhere warmer, where it will evaporate.

In the fountain effect, a chamber is constructed which is connected to a reservoir of helium II by a sintered disc through which superfluid helium leaks easily but through which non-superfluid helium cannot pass. If the interior of the container is heated, the superfluid helium changes to non-superfluid helium in order to maintain the equilibrium fraction of superfluid helium. Superfluid helium leaks through and increases the pressure, causing liquid to fountain out of the container.

The thermal conductivity of helium II is greater than that of any other known substance, a million times that of helium I and several hundred times that of copper. This is because heat conduction occurs by an exceptional quantum-mechanical mechanism. Most materials that conduct heat well have a valence band of free electrons which serve to transfer the heat. Helium II has no such valence band but nevertheless conducts heat well. The flow of heat is governed by equations that are similar to the wave equation used to characterize sound propagation in air. So when heat is introduced, it will move at 20 meters per second at 1.8 K through helium II as waves in a phenomenon called second sound.

[wdrzal]

helium2 = tritium I beleive.
2 xtra neutrons. Its 500,000$USD for a gram and is used in hydrogen atomics (h-bombs) and double stage nukes.


Wonder what the Tritium I wear every day is worth???? Hope it dosen't blow up :eek:

any guesses what it is???? ;)



Hint: its not anysort of medical device.

[s7e9h3n]

helium2 = tritium I beleive.
2 xtra neutrons. Its 500,000$USD for a gram and is used in hydrogen atomics (h-bombs) and double stage nukes.
Tritium = Hydrogen3 ;) (not helium...:P)

Walt keeps a bit of tritium in his watch so he can read it @ night :p:

[wdrzal]

Tritium = Helium3 ;)

Walt keeps a bit of tritium in his watch so he can read it @ night :p:


yep:toast:

All Luminox watches feature:

· The ultimate illumination system
· Glows continuously for more than 25 years
· Glows 100 times brighter than other luminous watches
· Swiss illumination system is self-powered
· No need to push button or expose to light to activate illumination system
· Illumination guaranteed for 10 years
· Entirely Swiss made with multi-jewel Swiss quartz watch movement
· Water and Shock resistant



What Are trazers?


The technical term for a traser light is a Gaseous Tritium Light Source (GTLS) These low level light sources have unique properties, they are unaffected by water, oil and most corrosive materials and require no external power source or exposure to light in order to work. They remain fail-safe and maintenance free and have a useful life in excess of 10-20 years.

Each traser light is a laser sealed borosilicate glass vial which has been coated internally with phosphor. In one single process the traser is sealed by a CO2 laser and injected with gaseous Tritium. The low energy electrons emitted by the Tritium, excite the phosphor and this creates a cold energy which produces a low level light without filaments or heat dissipation and no risk of fire or explosion.

here a pic I took in complete darkness. sorry to get off topic but some intersting science.

[Vapor]

I thought tritium (two neutrons) and deuterium (one neutron) were hydrogren isotopes, not helium. :confused:

He2 is certainly interesting stuff though. Dangerous as all get out, and wayyyyyy too cold (in any sort of non-vapor state) for even Intel CPUs :p:

More practically though, I think lumiere is slightly better than ceramique under the cold (heck, it says "keep refridgerated" on the tube :lol: ), ask Arctic Silver for a sample :)

Walt, wasn't talking about you :)

[wdrzal]

I didn't say that

I meant yep about the watch

stephen said tritium = helium 3 , its a isotope of hydrogen

noob and stephen need to get their isotopes straight

after noob mentioned tritium I thought about my watch

[s7e9h3n]

Oops...I misspoke - I was readig noob's post while I was typing.....I'll correct it now...

[n00b 0f l337]

Yah sorry my mistake.
Sorry I got bombs on the mind.

[wdrzal]

fuse the 2 isotopes of hydrogen, deuterium+tritium and you get helium.

Do this and your wealth will surpass bill gates.

[n00b 0f l337]

Um, walt, don't you mean fission a helium and manage to get deuerium + tritium and you'll be rich.
Tritium to helium is easy, just wait 12-14 years.
Its one of the reasons hydrogen bombs take so much money to maintain. The tritium needs to be filtered from the helium less you get a fizzle.

[wdrzal]

Unless my memory is way off, deuterium and tritium plus fussion give off helium and masses amouts of energy. this is how the sun and stars work.

bombs wok thru fission not fussion,

[n00b 0f l337]

Oh you mean for energy. I meant for tritium, at $500,000 a gram I think selling material would make you more money.

[wdrzal]

we are starting to get way out of my league. I only know some of the basics

[n00b 0f l337]

we are starting to get way out of my league. I only know some of the basics
And way off topic. I can't build atomics, I just know how they work.
[END OFF TOPICNESS]
Okay back to TIM's.
I honestly have found the radioshack paste to be the best stuff.

[wdrzal]

is the chemical compound of the tim's on the market known? or are they rated in any standard way?

[best [486]]

actually the H-bombs start fusion with fission a-bombs so fusion has HUGE power once you get it started, [believe it or not this was learned by reading lots of books in kindergarten {I was 5}]

[Thrilla]

http://www.unitednuclear.com/tls.htm
they're like $10 on ebay too.

Anyone tried using carbon as TIM yet?

[Jack]

Anyone tried using carbon as TIM yet?
Ofcourse the Japs have :)
New Beetle uses a graphite sheet.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98944

i believe PRTeamJapan posted info about it once.

[wdrzal]

http://www.unitednuclear.com/tls.htm
they're like $10 on ebay too.

Anyone tried using carbon as TIM yet?


I was thinking about that as I was takeing care of the hard coal (anthracite) boiler at the shop. its around 92to 98 % carbon ,one stage before graphite.I also have a box of pure grafite powder somewhere in the shop. could make the dust into a paste.

Anthracite coal gives off propane,methane,butane when heated.To all be traped togeather it must be a zerotropic mix. Maybee mother nature is giving a hint for the perfect refrigerant??????

[ooztuncer]

there was a strange german compound posted a while back, I think it was in the water cooling section. After testing though a few things were discovered. It does work better but it eats though aluminum like acid and it does etch itself in to the copper block and the cpu IHS. Kind of a permanent solution and it doesnt like aluminum. Forget where the thread is, but maybe you can ask Maxxracer, he might remember he posted in that thread.

Could it be this one http://svc.com/coolab.html

If yes, there are couple of threads also in dfi-street:

http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50630&highlight=liquid+pro

http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51189&highlight=liquid+pro

And another one (with links to others): http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98724

[placebo]

Could it be this one http://svc.com/coolab.html

If yes, there are couple of threads also in dfi-street:

http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50630&highlight=liquid+pro

http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51189&highlight=liquid+pro

And another one (with links to others): http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98724

Yep, thats it... I remember the 'junkie- syringe'... :eek: lol

It's kinda a pain to work with though... My sample may have been old/messed-up, because there is no way in hell I could have spreaded it around this nicely -> http://svc.com/coolab.html (4th pic on the left)

Mine acted a bit like mercury/quicksilver.... :(

JIN: Congrats on these results and findings! Its amazing how much a load- tester will tell you :) :toast: