Nitrous Oxide as Refrigerant?

[fhpchris]

I was browsing some P-T graphs, lookig @ co2 and other common things, and thought of N20:

Here is Co2:

http://www.airliquide.com/en/business/products/gases/gasdata/images%5CVaporPressureGraph%5CCarbon_dioxide_Vapor _Pressure.GIF

N20:
http://www.airliquide.com/en/business/products/gases/gasdata/images%5CVaporPressureGraph%5CNitrogen_Oxide_Vapor _Pressure.GIF

They seem very similar, Is there a reason why this gas is not used?

I know automotive grade N20 can be had for ~3$/lb

[n00b 0f l337]

Lets see...
Its flamably explosive.

[fhpchris]

Lets see...
Its flamably explosive.

It is not a fuel like Propane, it is only an oxidiser.

DOT Hazard class (USA) : Non flammable Gas

[n00b 0f l337]

Your reading something wrong. Nitrous Oxide has already been used as arefrgerant, and it had a vent out of the computer as a flame thrower.

Nitrous is one of the most flamable gases next to ethylene and a few others. Its not really flammable, but you cannot keep it away from oxygen. Its just not possible.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

It's an OXIDISER.

Oxidiser + OIL + Heat & Pressure = KER-F*CKING-BOOM

Guess what all three things we have inside a compressor!? and guess which is the fourth and finale ingreadiant to BOOMage

[Carlz0r]

Your reading something wrong. Nitrous Oxide has already been used as arefrgerant, and it had a vent out of the computer as a flame thrower.

Nitrous is one of the most flamable gases next to ethylene and a few others. Its not really flammable, but you cannot keep it away from oxygen. Its just not possible.
Yea. Pure nitrous oxide is not flammable on it's own, it's just a damn good oxidizer.

[fhpchris]

Yea. Pure nitrous oxide is not flammable on it's own, it's just a damn good oxidizer.

I do not think that having an oxidiser in a system would be any worse than having flammable gasses, but In no way would I build a propane-nitrous oxide autocascade, it would just be an accident waiting to happen.

However, if someone used a non-flammable gas, and kept the oil from starting a fire, I would imagine everything would be fine. I only wanted to see what the professional HVAC engineers had anything to say about this.

[Tyrou]

the issue is that, you have oil in your compressor (flammable), if you add some NOS, you'll have a very nice fuel/oxidizer mix, moreover it's well compressed...

The ONLY thing that needs to fire up is a spark, and just a spark, your compressor is mostly an electric motor, where sparks occur very often :D

the oil will burn in the NOS atmospher, producing a huge volume of combustion gases (CO2 + some others), building the pressures up, until a joint cracks...

I've asked that question when I started my first cascade, an I'm glad I've stuck to CO2, even Ethylen is way safer in a compressor than NOS ;)

[masterofpuppets]

There was a sticky about this a loooooong time ago from chilly1 warning people not to use nitrous oxide. Boom!

[Unknown_road]

indeed flammable gasses are 100 times safer as Nitrousoxide. Nitrousoxide is far less stable as CO2. when temperatures rise above a certain point nitrousoxide will fall apart in nitrogen and oxygen. a spark will cause enough heat for it to fall apart. the oil mist + oxygen + spark = fire.

flammable gas+spark= short ionisation that will fall back to it's ground state pretty fast and doesn't cause damage because there isn't any oxygen.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

NO NO NO! You do NOT NEED A SPARK FOR IT TO GO BOOM

PRESSURE PLUS OXIDISER = BOOM! The heat of compression just makes it go faster!

Now explosives I know well :D and got in much truble due to knowing them well :( But I assure you, you use it, it will expload and if you live you WILL regret it, same reason liquid oxygen isn't used ;)

[n00b 0f l337]

Now explosives I know well and got in much truble due to knowing them well But I assure you, you use it, it will expload and if you live you WILL regret it, same reason liquid oxygen isn't used

Welcome to my world. :) Basically NOS + Oil + Compression is the same effect as a fuel air bomb. A large detonation explosive wrapped into a small package. The copmression just makes it so much worse. Every ATM over 1 is almost a multiplier to the explosion.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

yuppers :D

And I bet you and I could make a sveet demo! muahahahahaha! lol.

[n00b 0f l337]

Actually I've considered an Oxidiser Flamethrower...
No pilot light, just an oil and kerosene shot thru a NOS compression chamber with tiny holes for injection hooked to a pressurized propane vessel. ;)

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Oooo prob is you'd mealt the Muzle of it and the IR released you'll need a good heat shield.

I've been trying to design a micro fuel / LO2 Missile hehe, be a sweet toy for shure. Its the detonating core thats been the tricky part, to achive a perfect mix and simutanious ignition.

[lma01]

Sounds like kinda bad idea. Charging a compressor with N2O wouldn't probably be, but WILL SURELY be painfull for ya!!

[n00b 0f l337]

YGPM Xeon

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Ygpm??

[Jort]

you got a private message ;)

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Ah Dank!

[Unknown_road]

NO NO NO! You do NOT NEED A SPARK FOR IT TO GO BOOM

PRESSURE PLUS OXIDISER = BOOM! The heat of compression just makes it go faster!

Now explosives I know well :D and got in much truble due to knowing them well :( But I assure you, you use it, it will expload and if you live you WILL regret it, same reason liquid oxygen isn't used ;)

in some cases your right but I don't think your right in this case. pressure alone doesn't make NOS fall apart, it's not like acethylene. That's why NOS doesn't need special cilinders with porreus material inside. NOS is stored liquified at high pressures and believe me it is stable inside. stable elements can't react untill they have a reason to fall apart.

[n00b 0f l337]

It is an oxygen non-reduction (cant remember word) reaction. It doesnt need the spark or light.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Inside a cylinder there are no reactants, so it is not that it is stable there is nothing to react with. Learn your chemistry befor you kill your self, the reaction is on a moleculer scale it dosn't "fall" apart, it exchanges particles with the hydrogen within the oil, or the Chlorine, or Flourine, all three combust very very well producing leathal decompisition products.

It's like burning R-12, it basicly mealts the lungs, you're safer hufing Phosgen then you are using N1O2 in a refridgeration loop with oil, hot N1O2 under pressure with oil will trigger a very nice cascading detonation wave that will quickly go from ignition to deflaguation to detonation.

You can try it, but please give me all the info so I can put a 1Million life insurance policy on you :D and beter make shure your family does too. But personaly, I'd recamend NOT doing it as they dont award insurance to suicide (Which I imagine they'd clasify it as)

[n00b 0f l337]

But if you want to prove Xeon wrong, go ahead, I'll nominate you for a Darwin.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

well there is a very slim chance he "may" get away with it, but the question is How long.

Hmm this may be a fun experiment, get an old compressor make a junk system make a 100' charging hose get behind a bunker, charge the system with N1O2 and turn it on and see what happens, I wonder how long it takes befor detonation :D

Any one with a realy realy realy big yard and some good cemant blocks?

[.sentinel]

Okay who wants to be nomanitated for a Darwin?

[Carlz0r]

If I can find a crappy old compressor, I'll do it, make a nice thick shelter for it, and post back with results. Oh yes, and I'll video tape it from 100+ feet away.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Oooooo goody :D

Mix up some POE, AB and MO oil and tos the slury in the compressor (Might as well try em all out)

This is going to be neat.

[Carlz0r]

Oooooo goody :D

Mix up some POE, AB and MO oil and tos the slury in the compressor (Might as well try em all out)

This is going to be neat.
Well, if I can go raid the local dump, we may have multiple explosions. NO2 should be easy to get, I can probably get it from a car store nearby :D

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Hehe, remake the Symphony of Fire with NO2 and compressors!

[Golden_Eagle]

I like explosions!! send me that video when it´s done!

do u need a detonator?? hehe, count on me with that one. ;)

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Come over to my place and I'll show you how to make em!, just right now I have now where to play with that stufe (and I realy dont want the police and CSIS at my front door!)

FYI the compressor IS the detonater!!

[mtl_hed]

Well, if I can go raid the local dump, we may have multiple explosions. NO2 should be easy to get, I can probably get it from a car store nearby :D


The you will get n02 from automotive suppliers will have sulfur in it. They use this to prevent it from being used in medical/recreational purposes.

Will this have any affect on this (stupid) experiment?

[Xeon th MG Pony]

why call it stupid? simply put if you lack the skills to mount a fun "experiment" quite simply don't, we know the dangers and know how to handle it, we just want to validate our hypothisis.

and it will be fun to do so, as for the sulfure it will not effect any thing.

[Slayer2k3]

Oxidiser + OIL + Heat & Pressure = KER-F*CKING-BOOM

This is the best explination I have ever read..........evar!!!:D

[mtl_hed]

why call it stupid? simply put if you lack the skills to mount a fun "experiment" quite simply don't, we know the dangers and know how to handle it, we just want to validate our hypothisis.

and it will be fun to do so, as for the sulfure it will not effect any thing.

Well it is kinda stupid, but stupid can be fun. I'd gladly watch somebody blow something up. Preferably in a controlled situation

[Carlz0r]

Well it is kinda stupid, but stupid can be fun. I'd gladly watch somebody blow something up. Preferably in a controlled situation
And that is what I plan to do :D

[boardy]

Ok this looks like it could be interesting. I'm watching this one :D

Boardy

[Unknown_road]

people misread my posts allot @ XS. I'm not doubting if NOS can explode in a compressor. I never said I wanted to try it out, I'm asking why nos will react with oil by just pressure. No one here gives a good explanation what the chemistry involved is, but people call me stupid for asking info. My chemistry knowledge isn't that low although I'm actually a physicist.

@ XEON: almost every chemical reaction happens in stages. In between those stages molecules fall apart for a very short time making it capable of accepting other atoms into the molecular bonds. That's why 2 N2O can react to 2 N2 and 1 O2. It is not like 2 molecules collide and they suddenly are 3 molecules. This goes in stages. I did some research and under pressure NOS needs 300*C for it to break apart into nitrogen and oxygen.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

It has to do with atomic proximities, when you machanicly force two vapours through a small velve the acceleration and compression generate heat and IONs of the working substances, thees Ions will react and cascad to an ever more intense reaction to the point it hits a criticle mass and goes boom. So at the velve is where they "Fall apart" you have to under stand at that velve there are extream forces acting upon the oil and gas, and Nitruse is quite adept at reacting given the slightest push and in the pressens of oil it has all it needs.

I know the chemistry well mate, but for practicality we don't call it falling apart, becuase some times the echangers are don instataniously IE the two molaculs clomp together then break apart, the physics of such a reaction are very hard to explain, I grew up around this stufe, it was my life, my reality as a child, I do not even know how to teach it as it all ways was.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

300C? Ok then do some math, take you Condencer pressure multiply it by say 2 (We want to have alote of Oh sh*t space here) so if it's 40C well call the distarge velve temp 80, Now we are firing High pressure and high volocity gass under pressure through an 80C velve that will most likly have a descant static charge. So if head pressure is 120PSI at the velve orifice it will probly be seeing (Again well just call it a multiple of 2) 240PSI for X milliseconds as it rushes through with a static charge cuasing ionization and heat.

Now this is very loos calculation but it gives you a basic idea of the physics the gass is experiancing in there eh? If you want to take the time to calculate every lil stage and gurantee it never reaches criticle pressure n tempiture (In the chemistry term criticle) All power to you and you'll have a very unique system, and I'll still only look at it behind a bunker lol

[Unknown_road]

It has to do with atomic proximities, when you machanicly force two vapours through a small velve the acceleration and compression generate heat and IONs of the working substances, thees Ions will react and cascad to an ever more intense reaction to the point it hits a criticle mass and goes boom. So at the velve is where they "Fall apart" you have to under stand at that velve there are extream forces acting upon the oil and gas, and Nitruse is quite adept at reacting given the slightest push and in the pressens of oil it has all it needs.

I know the chemistry well mate, but for practicality we don't call it falling apart, becuase some times the echangers are don instataniously IE the two molaculs clomp together then break apart, the physics of such a reaction are very hard to explain, I grew up around this stufe, it was my life, my reality as a child, I do not even know how to teach it as it all ways was.

I doubt you even realise that you just supported my point. You say you need heat, that's my whole point. pressure alone doesn't do it. Although pressure can cause friction and thus heat, the pressure itself doesn't make it react.

[mtl_hed]

So if I'm reading you guys correctly...

The n20 would most likleyreact in the "highest pressure" part of the system. For instance the beginning of the cap tube?

So Carlz0r: your gonna tape this with a high speed camera to determine the point of reaction? lol. I dont see this happening but I would still like to see it blow up on any recording.

[Unknown_road]

or in the compressor itself.

[wdrzal]

people misread my posts allot @ XS. I'm not doubting if NOS can explode in a compressor. I never said I wanted to try it out, I'm asking why nos will react with oil by just pressure. No one here gives a good explanation what the chemistry involved is, but people call me stupid for asking info. My chemistry knowledge isn't that low although I'm actually a physicist.

@ XEON: almost every chemical reaction happens in stages. In between those stages molecules fall apart for a very short time making it capable of accepting other atoms into the molecular bonds. That's why 2 N2O can react to 2 N2 and 1 O2. It is not like 2 molecules collide and they suddenly are 3 molecules. This goes in stages. I did some research and under pressure NOS needs 300*C for it to break apart into nitrogen and oxygen.


your correct it can seperate but is a strong oxidizer as it is, A oxdizer like no2 or o2 can cause Spontanious combustion when mixed with a fuel under pressure.

[wdrzal]

You guys are lucky I don't have a BAN button my pc. This is supossed to be a cooling site exchanging knowledge about refrigeration and thermodynamics as applied to pc's and overclocking.

lately all I see is a bunch of B/S being posted and these wild schemes. if you want to build a bomb go the the ,idiot site, many young people read this site and it should be keep to the topic is was intended for..........

This site is for people who don't know cooling to ask question. And for those who do have the knowdlede to pass it on RESPONSEBLE. And the most important thing is to work safe and promote safety along the way.

As Pythogoras's sig used to say: " Lets all be good teachers ".

Lets all make a effort to get the XS cooling forum back to factual information instead of posting a lot of worthless crap.

This of course is my personal opinion only. But I would hope other agree.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

exactly pressure ALONE WILL DO IT, the heat is just a bonus.

You know enough to be dangerus, learn some more, just as you are now, to be exact it will hapent right at the discharge velve where pressure is the most extream alonge with heat and ionization.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

thats what we are doing mate, and to further prove and to deepen the dire safety warning we wish to show the resualt of an accident, some things text simply failes to convay, and if he films it, that will show just how serious such an accident can be.

Two ways to learn, by seing it or doing it, we want them to learn by seing it, as we know how to do it safely.

[Unknown_road]

exactly pressure ALONE WILL DO IT, the heat is just a bonus.

You know enough to be dangerus, learn some more, just as you are now, to be exact it will hapent right at the discharge velve where pressure is the most extream alonge with heat and ionization.

do you only read pieces? I already said 3 times that I don't want to try anything with nos!!

[Jort]

thats what we are doing mate, and to further prove and to deepen the dire safety warning we wish to show the resualt of an accident, some things text simply failes to convay, and if he films it, that will show just how serious such an accident can be.

Two ways to learn, by seing it or doing it, we want them to learn by seing it, as we know how to do it safely.


XS is not what it used to be, in the better times i enjoyed reading on XS.
Now i only watch dumb threads because quality is going back like lightspeed...

:rolleyes:

[Xeon th MG Pony]

I wish Phase change.com was still full, I'm not realy intrested in making cute toys, I'm more into the industrial scale stufe, but hey I take what I can get

[runmc]

This is not the place to experiment with controlled explosions.:stick: Thread closed.