Condensing Argon, A few questions...

[ak_47_boy]

Does argon have good heat capacity?
What kind of pressures are needed to condence argon at: -20, -70?
I live in canada so refrigerants are limited, how about the folllowing:
1st stage: r123a
2nd stage: r123a/co2 (50/50?)
3rd stage: co2
4th stage: argon

or

1st stage: r123a
2nd stage: r123a/co2 (50/50?)
3rd stage: co2/argon (60/40?)
4th stage: argon

or.. any sugestions

[ak_47_boy]

Thease are all the refrigerants i can get:
co2
argon
propain
isobutain
r134a

oh and what size compressors would i need on the stages?

how would i use thease in a cascade to condence the argon?

p.s. im not actualy thinking of doing this, i was just wondering if it is a possible future goal :)

edit:
sorry for double posting i thought it automerged...

[n00b 0f l337]

Co2 wont condense argon.

[ak_47_boy]

Will co2 condence a mixture of argon/co2 or argon/r134a or argon/propain witch will in turn condence the argon?
will r134a condence co2?

[n00b 0f l337]

Not all mixes mix... R134a will condense Co2 not easily. Co2 also has dice problems. Argon is not going to mix with anything if I remebmer correctly. So you'll only condense what you mix with it.

[ak_47_boy]

does methane mix with anything?
oh and what is critical temp? I read argon has a critical temp of -120..

[n00b 0f l337]

Methane is relatively stable. I doubt you'll get it to mix without a refrigerant you cannot acquire.

[Carlz0r]

Have you even made a single stage yet?

[n00b 0f l337]

I dont think hes lit a torch.

[ak_47_boy]

p.s. im not actualy thinking of doing this, i was just wondering if it is a possible future goal.
... not again ... please ...

I dont think hes lit a torch.

haven`t had time.. iv been working on this asome pluse jet(gave myself a early sunburn with the welder :P) like this one exept alot smaller: http://www.beck-technologies.com/images/gallerylockwood15lb1.jpg
im gona get more propain next week and ill post some pics.

so methane and argon dont mix with other gasses?
is an autocascade an option?

again im not going to do this in the near future, im just looking in the distance.

[n00b 0f l337]

You really cannot fathom the difficulty until you've tried, we cannot answer these questions for you.

[ak_47_boy]

so it just doesen't mix or it doesen't condence... please be a bit more specific. I dont want to pointlessly screw around when somone elts already has a conclusion.

[Carlz0r]

so it just doesen't mix or it doesen't condence... please be a bit more specific. I dont want to pointlessly screw around when somone elts already has a conclusion.
If you read his previous posts, he states that it wont mix or condense. You will need a refrigeration license to purchase the gases needed to condense argon.

[Freez]

Anyone else foresee a casualty?

[Xenogias]

woah, what does that huge glowing thing do??? =]

[Tonic]

It's a Lockwood turbo jet engine.

Have you got thing working? :D

[wdrzal]

right ,minus the turbo, there are no turbines or compressors. Pulse jets only moving part is a flutter valve.

[epion2985]

woah, what does that huge glowing thing do??? =]

pluse jet engine, a simple mans jet engine. Just a hollow pipe with a spark plug and an injector.

Anyone else foresee a casualty?

Well lets not be so harsh. Maybe or maybe not. I think this might end up lilke the "mother of cascades" project, costing alot, looking impressive but never really working well.

[ak_47_boy]

Ill it took was some different size fence posts and a camping style propain tank. Iv got a few pops out out of it and it ran for a second but its not getting enough propain(i was using a small tank) im gona go fill my big one and give it another shot.

[Comp-Freak]

oh and what is critical temp? I read argon has a critical temp of -120..It means that if you want to condense it, the temp needs to be lower than -120. Above, you can put as much pressure on it as you want, but it won't condense. But even @ -120, pressures will be very high. I don't have the P-T chart, but I think you'll need to be around -160 for reasonable pressures. (just a guess)

[ak_47_boy]

ok thanks

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Ak, I started off like you wanting to do big stufe off the bat, BUT every step teaches you more then a million questions. Build your self a small room A/C unit, as you build that, the questions you'll come up with will be more practicle and down to what you need to know. Once you've made the single stage A/C, Move up to a tube in tube water chiller (This will be the closest thing to a cascade Heat echanger) Once you make one leak free and tune it, you'll be at a level you can "Attempt " a Normal cascade, though you will greatly benifit by taking the time to learn about all the gasses, the pressure Vs Temp charts, Basic physices of the gasses and how the system opperates.

What you are doing is walking into an explosives manufactering plant and asking to work on the nitro line with no experiance, and I prommis you it only ends in one way. Here's a hint it begines with a B ends with an M and has two Os in the middle.

You simply can't build a roof with out a foundation, thats what you are doing right now. You can try, it may or may not work at best, at worst I hope the local corner has lots of spunges and gets good over time! (Realisticly it wont be that messy but arosolized blood is a pita to clean up, gets every where, Industrial accidents aren't pretty and Cascades is an industry type system)

Just take it slow, and remember this saying: Do it right, do it therough, do it quality, and assume you all ways made a mistake and check the system when your don as if you had.

What that means is, when you build some thing scrutinize it, and check every single joint and bend for any cracking or cold solder joints and the like.

[404Power]

graphs of methane and argon! ^^ :)

[Xeon th MG Pony]

and keep in mind this is when the system is running! You have to do some thing to deal with the pressure when it's NOT!

[ak_47_boy]

I FOUND A ROOM AIR CONDITIONER. Someone was throwing it out on my street! YESSSSS

edit: nevermind the compressors ruined, condensers is pretty good...

Anyway, i was looking on praxairs website at different gasses, can you tell from the boiling point, critical temp, and critical pressure if it would be a good refrigerant? I found a gas called silane it has propertys similar to ethylene exept it has a lower boiling point.

[404Power]

With a scroll/rotary comp? ^^ :)
If it runs proberly, you're rly lucky! ;) :)

[n00b 0f l337]

NIce find, snap some pics and upload them. Dealing with the pressure when off isnt that bad, a large expansion tank solves the problem.

[404Power]

@ n00b of l337:

Do you have a drawing or a pic where I can see how to connect an expansion tank? :)
Would be rly helpful! :)

[n00b 0f l337]

HEre you go.

Basically its just a large area on the suction line. Since pressure is based on volume, this large volume adds a large area to help reduce the overall PSI.

[404Power]

OK ... big thx! ^^ :)
That rly helps a lot! :)

[Xeon th MG Pony]

ya, we use em on boilers too though they are more or less to dampen the kick back when a velve snaps shut.

[star882]

HEre you go.

Basically its just a large area on the suction line. Since pressure is based on volume, this large volume adds a large area to help reduce the overall PSI.
One slight problem with the picture: the pipe should connect at the bottom of the tank or oil may collect in the tank and get trapped. If it's connected to the bottom, the oil will just get sucked out once the compressor starts.

[404Power]

@ star882: Thx btw. for that lil advice! ^^ :)