Water Cooled Condenser

[epion2985]

I was wondering what was the point in a water cooled condenser. In water cooling vs air on computers you accomplish 2 things. One you move the heatsink which is now your radiator off the cpu. And two you make it much bigger since you are not limited by space as much since you moved it.

With a condenser, well the placement is pretty flexible already and the size is alredy the size of a decent radiator. So what exactly would you acomplish by adding a radiator and move the heat to it for dispertion, unlese you make it much bigger then the condenser. I see that being as the only plus since oversizing your condenser is ussualy not a good thing. But you would need to use a huge radiator.

Is the reason its not really common here because it doesnt really help anything much unlese you have a large radiator larger then the condenser?

[GuuZ]

Unless the condensor you would try to use has not enough capicity, using watercooling to condense shouldn't have any value above normal condensor. It's all about the amount of capicity the normal condensor and the watercooling radiator have.

[aussie_guy00000]

Well water is a lot more effective at removing heat then air (Higher thermal conductivity and thermal capacity), therefore the HX for the water to refrigerant can be a lot more compact and smaller then a conventional condensor coil. But it's of no real use to us in the computer cooling respect, as it only adds bulk to the system and we don't really produce much heat anyway. The guys who work in the industry could give better examples of where it is most effective and useful so i'll leave it up to one of them :D.

[Ssilencer]

I'm Planning to use a watercooled desuperheater instead of a condenser in my next build, and also a SLHX to cool my GPU with water, why? because I'm bored :D
I hope I will start making it in a pair of weeks.
I will use a 1/3hp comp with r402, I thought about using r410, but I think I will not get nothing better than r402.
Maybe I can do some blend, any advices?
I already has my little custom made radiator mounted on the case, so I only need another water pump.


http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1108/ipodnano0091re.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/428/ihs027small25zy.jpg

[epion2985]

Well water is a lot more effective at removing heat then air (Higher thermal conductivity and thermal capacity), therefore the HX for the water to refrigerant can be a lot more compact and smaller then a conventional condensor coil. But it's of no real use to us in the computer cooling respect, as it only adds bulk to the system and we don't really produce much heat anyway. The guys who work in the industry could give better examples of where it is most effective and useful so i'll leave it up to one of them :D.


well it doesnt matter how well water moves heat sif you cant get rid of it at where ever you are moving it to. The water would just heat up and stop cooling the condenser. So you would need am equal or larger in terms of heat dissipation radiator to have gains, which doesnt make much sence since you can just make your condenser bigger. Only here it does make a little sence since making one too big for your system is not a great idea. So I guess I amswered my own question? lol

[Ssilencer]

I think the question will be answered once we see mine running
You forgot something, water has a lot more capacity , and a good radiator is a lot better than a simple condensor (3 pases, all copper, much more surface per cm)

[Xeon th MG Pony]

you guys are forgeting some thing! In industry we dont wast time with a radiator, cold water comes in from the mains then out to the drains, Or cooling tower, you need a very small flow to achieve alot this way as there is very litle pre-existing heat in there.
For a home user this is totaly pointless and non functional, Unless perhaps you live by a river then using only piping and gravity will get plenty of flow to cool the condencer without needing any pump or Fan!

[Ssilencer]

We will see...
You don't use a watercooled condenser comercially under a freezer...

[quintus]

if u can put the condenser somewhere where is chilly i think is super.
My ideea is to use a desuperheater in place of the normal condens. Cooled with water runing thru cu pipes half meter in the ground and ''casted'' in cement concrete beton!
gr,q

[Xeon th MG Pony]

with freezers no, but where I have come accross water cooled unites they where fore lage industrial systems at a hydro dam and such and even then very very scarcly, simply not much call for it from what I gather...

[Ssilencer]

So, not near to our application, at all.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

No, but hey if you live near a Creak or stream why not? It'll be dead quite as gravity will move the water for you and since there are no additional pumps! But if not then there is zerro gain, infact you'll be going in the negitive as now you have more potential failur points and using more power and generating more noise (Well unless you hook it up to a tap and let the water flow though to the drain).

[Ssilencer]

More noise? the same 120mm fan that was on the conser will be on the radiator.
Failure points? yes, the water part, more power? a 12v pump?
We have a say here, "Zapata, si no la gana, la empata..." :D

[Xeon th MG Pony]

well every thing I've been trained to do since day one is to minimize power usage and failure points but get max function and capacity, so every watt is counted, every moving part attempted to be removed, even solder joints are counted! On boats or heavy machinery a failur or loos wire can't be tollerated same with the logging camp, at any point some one with no clue must be able to some what fix it, that should explain why I mention the power usage, the noise part is I'm a silence fannatic.

[Ssilencer]

Well, I respect you trained thinking, but I do this just for fun, and I don't want to minimize that. :D

[Xeon th MG Pony]

I do it for fun to, but it's a very hard habbit to break, hell took me 2 years to not say "Over" when using the mike in day of defeat!

[epion2985]

lol

[quintus]

Well, I respect you trained thinking, but I do this just for fun, and I don't want to minimize that. :D

ur so damn right:slapass: :toast: lol
@ Xeon th MG Pony i will be runing water from my mains....
thinking atm how to col the compressor! any1? watercool offcourse!

regards,
q

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Simply run the condencers exuast water over it, you'll still have plenty of unused capasity in the water, so it will keep the compressor well within opperating temps.

[illmatik]

No, but hey if you live near a Creak or stream why not? It'll be dead quite as gravity will move the water for you and since there are no additional pumps! But if not then there is zerro gain, infact you'll be going in the negitive as now you have more potential failur points and using more power and generating more noise (Well unless you hook it up to a tap and let the water flow though to the drain).

If you live near a steam with enough flow, you might as well make a microhydro power system to power your computers so you can forget about condenser cooling and just run a monster unit ;)

[Xeon th MG Pony]

That Too. Thats my master plan is to try and rent a place near a good creek and make a nice moduler cross flow turbine with an axial flux Alternator.

[gclg2000]

IMO...these are not needed for the things we do....A good example in the real world, would be a larger condensing unit where a fan is not applicable.....or several "water cooling condensers" in a row looped together to cool multiple condensing units. All leading to a radiator blowing off the heat...

Keep in mind, the heat in the water is still heat and needs to be blown off by a fan....

And a final note, high side pressures and air cooling condensers is what really makes the difference.....its the pressure....

You'll maybe gain a couple degrees in the temperature of the high side liquid...but for what??? Your still condensing the gas to liquid and metering it from that point.

the only thing these should be used for, are very large cascades, multiple single stages or interstage HX's on cascades.

[gclg2000]

ur so damn right:slapass: :toast: lol
@ Xeon th MG Pony i will be runing water from my mains....
thinking atm how to col the compressor! any1? watercool offcourse!

regards,
q

There is a good chance that if you cool the compressor to much, you may start liquifying (or a saturated vapor) the gas in the discharge lines running to the condenser....

What's gonna happen when you have high pressure gas that is at room temp....(very openly speaking)... ?

[n00b 0f l337]

Why not just run a swamp cooler.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

That's true, you want your compressor to be hotter then the condencer, I failed to think of that part, thank you for picking up the slack gclg2000.

and I have pointed out water cooling isn't even used in thoughs cenarios, they simply rout the discharge lines to a manifould and out to one BIG condencer and then to a distrobution manafold to the diferant circuits, there just realy is no use for water cooled condencers cept for cryogenic units and so fourth.

But hey if he wants to experiment or do so theres no harm in it, franky I find DD system funny becuase there is zerro practicality in them, chillers you can make them do lots of functional work and cool the PC or house or what ever, but DD system is like a nifty toy. So why not make it water cooled?

Hell why not make a cooling tower? I've don that back at camp using a 45Gall barrel an Old screen door and a wire cage fan! and a shower head, using the float from a toilet to automate the water filling.

[Ssilencer]

Now I have a question, how eficient is to use a valve 30cm away from the evaporator and what kind of copper tube to use, 1/8? some big cap tube?
I will have to run a valve if I wish to use a slhx to cool water for the vga and get just ambient temp, or it will be a pita to tune it for that.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

? Can you clairify?

Are you asking if you should use a TXV for the evap?

Idealy it should be as close as possible, that or the tube be increadibly well insulated.

The velve use a 1/2" flare to connect, I made a 1/2' to 3/8' Converter
And I figure that should be well off.

[Ssilencer]

Are you asking if you should use a TXV for the evap?
Yes :D
And yes, I know that ideally the valve has to be near the evap, but some guys built units with the valve away from the evap.
Incredibly well? I was thinking about sending the tube inside the flex line or at least around it, so, insulation will be the same as the flex line, 19mm thick armaflex hose.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Hmmmmmmm, I do know for when using multiple evaps, they use a distrobuter using 5/16 or smaller, and they work well enough, but due to pressure drop you'll need an externaly compinsated one.

[gclg2000]

what about accounting for the load from the SLHX for the water GPU idea...

The sense bulb will need to be placed after that.

[Ssilencer]

I thought about using a manual valve

[quintus]

tomorow i'll start the :banana::banana::banana::banana: i have to think if i'm gonna cool the compressor too. Will be using tap water flow around 20l per minute temperature 10c.

Where can i get some jpgs with presure temperature charts for -50 -100 freons? i have till 410 but lower not.
q

[gclg2000]

i don't think cooling the compressor that much would be a good idea.

[epion2985]

I know its all about the split but with a lower high side I can be pulling more vacuem so I can still keep the split. From the math we did it looks like to get the same split I could with a water cooled condenser from the mains my high side would have to be over 400psi. And I dont know many compressors that would like that pressure.

[quintus]

done it i got only 1 pic my tester, blew up!
water cooled evap temp -47 air cooling -36
see ya,
q

[Ssilencer]

I don't understand, you have one pic? can you show us?
Water cooled evap temp you mean watercooled conderser,evap temp -47; air cooled condenser evap temp -36?

[epion2985]

I am confused too

[[XC] gomeler]

I have a question in relation to this. I plan on sealing my entire compressor in some form of sound absorbing material, meaning it will get zero airflow. I am doing this to try and cut down on some of the noise produced by this monster compressor, however would winding a few loops of 1/4"-3/8" copper around the compressor and running them through my waterloop do the trick of keeping the compressor "cool"? Compressors operate between 60 and 70 celsius correct?

[epion2985]

I dought you will get even close to enough contact area for that to work.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

AHK NEIN! I lost my tape messure!

[[XC] gomeler]

That was what I was worried about Epion, I just need to find a way to silence this compressor, maybe I could increase charge in the system, A64's don't need super low temps.

[epion2985]

Try to attach vibration dampning devices used on compound hunting bows. I have some on my bow and I attached them to one of my compressors (it has a weird clip on top) and it helped.
http://www.yeoldearcheryshoppe.com/simms-extreme-limb-saver-system-p-31.html

You can also try to find one of those metalic flexible cooling bags, and pump water though it. It should be soft enought o conform to the compressor shell and with some arctic silver could keep it at a decent temperature. Have no idea where you would find one though. last place I remember seeing them in the Koolancses hard drive cooling solutions:
http://www.xoxide.com/koolance-hd-50-l06-cooler.html

[gclg2000]

done it i got only 1 pic my tester, blew up!
water cooled evap temp -47 air cooling -36
see ya,
q

bigger condenser.

[quintus]

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/8954/img75120nu.jpg

that temp is what water does to my system :D
only this pic, low battery and my tester blew up and i got pisse.....
sorry for my :banana::banana::banana::banana:y writing
on air evap is around 30something, under shower is under 40, with minus.
i thik is posible to make a ss that could reach -100 no load with water.
i know is crap like that but can be done much nicer with a HX.
water flow around 13l pe minute
regards,
q

[Xeon th MG Pony]

haha thats one way of doing it. For the most part though it's a spiraled Tube within a wet jacket.

The wet jacket (The bigger tube) is flooded with water that flows through the inner coiled tube, due to the capasity of the water you don't need as large as a condencer as you would with air, size is another point to use a liquid cooled condencer (Thats why they are favoured in industries that need high cooling but restricted floor space or roof area)

[Ssilencer]

So I'm right, please, stop describing my watercooled condenser mister, lol!

[quintus]

So I'm right, please, stop describing my watercooled condenser mister, lol!

im thinking of a box for the compressor too............
i know its looking getto style but does the job!
maybe tring to condens some nice freon mix with -60(bp)......
see ya

[Xeon th MG Pony]

one thing I forgot to mention, IT IS IMPERITIVE to never have any brazed, solderd or other wise bonded pipes within the wet jacket, IE no joind pipes should be exposed to moisture within the wet jacket. Out side brazed, solderd, bonded joints are fine.

[gclg2000]

rofl!!!

That's awesome!

lol lol lol

[Ssilencer]

one thing I forgot to mention, IT IS IMPERITIVE to never have any brazed, solderd or other wise bonded pipes within the wet jacket, IE no joind pipes should be exposed to moisture within the wet jacket. Out side brazed, solderd, bonded joints are fine.

no problem, you have to braze/bond the jaquet, but you can get the coil join outside the jacket.

[[XC] MarioMaster]

And with a cooling tower mounted outside the cooling system wouldn't heat up your room.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

The reson is should thermal cycling cuase a crack you wont get moistur into the loop which would be fatal to the system. Brazing any where ells dosn't mater or the brazing on the wet jacket.

[[XC] gomeler]

Wow that is really interesting, I wonder if I could coat my compressor in a layer of waterproof paint, and then do something similar, I just don't feel safe with it running at such high temps. Wouldn't the oil start to fall apart, like engine oil does?

[Xeon th MG Pony]

yup from what I understand and heard.

[epion2985]

hey Ssilencer, is your setup running yet? :)

[Ssilencer]

hey Ssilencer, is your setup running yet? :)

Not yet, I'm reallt bussy right now, we have a mayor controller release on hands now, 4 new different controllers at better prices and features... :woot:

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Making a 1Ton Helical Axial counter flow Water cooled unit (IE: Big spiral tube with water going in where refrigerant comes out and the tube is inside the big one)

[quintus]

uuuuuuuuuuuu any1 anything???

[Thrilla]

I was thinking of wrapping copper pipes around the compressor to lower it's temperature lol, but then learned the refrigerant and oil in the suction line can cool it, there's no need really.

[[XC] MarioMaster]

it would be nice if rotaries had oil cooler ports, would help keep temps down

[best [486]]

i am going to do this on my auto and the 2 ss's i'm putting in my case mostly to put the heat outside my room, it heats up to 100F in 3 minuites, and space constraints, so the water hx condensor and i will make a guide now that i can post pics

[Xeon th MG Pony]

We will see...
You don't use a watercooled condenser comercially under a freezer...

Good to see this thread alive. I found a freezer thats water cooled.