how do u build a cascade

[matt samoohi]

I see all these people with crazy benhmarks with subzero cascade coolers? Now my question is how do u build them? Is it hard? How much is the cost? Who would make one and sell it. From my view it looks like dry ice and a toob so it shouldent be that expensive is it?

[madgravity34]

This really shouldnt be in this section, but a cascade is not a tube and DI, its a series of compressors like multiple SS put together to combine thier cooling power (I think). They arent that cheap but if you want one built then pm Chilly1.

[racinjimy]

go to the phase change forum and start reading.............................

[FragTek]

I see all these people with crazy benhmarks with subzero cascade coolers? Now my question is how do u build them? Is it hard? How much is the cost? Who would make one and sell it. From my view it looks like dry ice and a toob so it shouldent be that expensive is it?
Check out the cooling forum for answers to all of your questions...

Dry ice and a tube = exactly that. AKA DICE Cooling.

Cascade = Phase change consisting of 2 or more compressors with different gasses in each stage which compliment each other greatly enough to reach uncanny temps :)

[M.Beier]

I see all these people with crazy benhmarks with subzero cascade coolers? Now my question is how do u build them? Is it hard? How much is the cost? Who would make one and sell it. From my view it looks like dry ice and a toob so it shouldent be that expensive is it?

From 1500 to 8000$ Depending on how high quality..
Tom Holck's well known cascade is 8000$+......... - Its also extreme cool as well as cold :D :toast:

[LukeXE]

Who would make one and sell it

If you want cascade just give me PM.

but maybe start with Single stage system ;)

[n00b 0f l337]

If you need to ask how much you either do not have a use or cannot afford.

[the_new_guy]

hey dude i think you should read up and all, i think what you want is just a single stage and not a cascade.

a ss is not too expensive u can get on for 400-800$

[Movieman]

If you need to ask how much you either do not have a use or cannot afford.
After the stuff that just went on with Stephen, why don't we all cut each other a bit more slack. There are subjects that we all know well and subjects we know nothing on. The guy asked a legit question. Sure, maybe he should have used the search button. I'll grant you that.Maybe give him a link or point him to the right section of the forum.
I just think a bit more courtesy and understanding would be beneficial to all.

[n00b 0f l337]

Sorry the, AK Boy's been getting to me. I suggest reading VR zone over on single stages. Once you've figured out a single stage you'll manage to figure out a cascade.

[runmc]

Sorry the, AK Boy's been getting to me. I suggest reading VR zone over on single stages. Once you've figured out a single stage you'll manage to figure out a cascade.

You originally discribed a container which you put either dry ice or LN2 into to cool a cpu or video card.
We have a section for dry ice and ln2 in this cooling forum.

Cascades use two compressors and are expensive to buy or build. I would say $1500 and up. They are dangerous and a bad idea for a first build.

You could give dry ice a try first and then maybe build or buy a single stage direct die vapo cooler. Do lots of reading and good luck.:D

[n00b 0f l337]

May want to start with a chiller before a DD even.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

think of a cascade as a multiplier, it takes the temp of the first system then multiplies it by X amount and each aditional compressor multiplies it, it does this by using a diferant gass at each level, they are totaly Non practicle and a HUGE drain on power and pose NO benifit to an average or even above average user, same with DD systems, if all you do is game and want reasonable temps, water cooling or high end air cooling will do this for you nicely.

The only reason to go into phase systems is if you want to push the proverbial envoloup on overclocking and the like, or you just enjoy messing with it.

The gasses used can be deadly if miss handled and dangeruse pressures. First thing you'll need to do if you wish to enter the field is learn about safely handling gasses, and electricity (You'll be dealing with raw line voltages) then learn about compressors and the like.

This is a very harsh field for a newb to just "walk" into, it can kill you in a heart beat if you mess up badly, do NOT under estimate the danger, but like any thing, this danger shrinks as you learn to handle it properly (We have a saying in the explosives industry, Nitro is as safe as any thing, it's the idiots handling it you need to fear!) what that means is, if you know what your doing it is safe..

It is a complex field but that is what we are here to do, is help initiate the Newbs and hope that they may come to our level or bestow the greatest honor a teacher can have, and that is exceed us.

[Bergo]

think of a cascade as a multiplier...

Each phase in the cascade exponentially increases your chances to badly hurt yourself and your computer =)

[ak_47_boy]

Sorry the, AK Boy's been getting to me.

Dont blame me...

[n00b 0f l337]

You got a problem PM me ak.

Best explanation of a cascade I think is...

Some gases we cannot use to cool our computers. So we cool the gases first with a single stage like setup and then get a colder result on our computers.

Its a normal single stage for the high stage except for a larger evap. The 2nd stage replaces its condenser with the evap of the 1st stage.

[epion2985]

Is it just me or is there a trend for people that dont have expirience to come and try to ask how to make a cascade or something even more dangerous. Maybe its just me :confused:

[Movieman]

Is it just me or is there a trend for people that dont have expirience to come and try to ask how to make a cascade or something even more dangerous. Maybe its just me :confused:
No, your not confused. BUT if you were researching what was the best way to do anything, wouldn't you ask where the "best" hung out?
Where do you get experience except by "trying"..
Don't resent the new guy that asks what you perceive to be a dumb question, give him the benefit of your knowledge! Make sure that he knows that building a cascade is dangerous and maybe save his backside..

[Xenogias]

go for a single stager I say. First thing would be to locate a refrigeration shop in your area and talk to the people there. Tell them basically what you want to build, don't be shy about telling them its for a computer. Most refrigeration guys I've talked to will be intrigued (if you sound serious enough) and will want to help you. This is important because most of the gasses used in phase change systems cannot be purchased by non-HVAC techs and if you can get a shop to fill a system for you, it's one less step you'll need to deal with.

I feel like I know enough to build a cascade myself but i probably wouldn't ever do it because I wouldn't be able to charge it myself and tweak it when i want. Much tweaking is involved with a cascade and probably several rebuilds and complete regasses to get it right and do proper leak testing, evacs etc. Another thing is the sheer amount of equipment you will need to make the thing. Most of the stuff applies to making a single stager too. but you will need about $400 in equipment in addition to the parts of the thing.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

400? just a high quality vacuum pump costs that!

[eshbach]

400? just a high quality vacuum pump costs that!

yea but a decent rotary compressor costs $50 and works just as well for these small systems.

[epion2985]

No, your not confused. BUT if you were researching what was the best way to do anything, wouldn't you ask where the "best" hung out?
Where do you get experience except by "trying"..
Don't resent the new guy that asks what you perceive to be a dumb question, give him the benefit of your knowledge! Make sure that he knows that building a cascade is dangerous and maybe save his backside..

I would think new people would show more reserve, reason and humility in respect to this activity. If you tell your local friendly hvac guy you want to make a 4 stage cascade to cool your neon and strobe filled computer to be l33t he would rpobbaly laugh at you. I know so because my fiances father is an hvac engineer and I show him an occasional thread and he has some good laughs. Kids these days :cheer2:

[SexyMF]

400? just a high quality vacuum pump costs that!

I second eshbach. Don't knock a compressor. You don't need a near perfect vacuum for a system to function just fine.


I'll have a crack at what I understand:

A first stage gas might condense at 30C (ie at above ambient temp) and boil at -40C. So you can easily cool the gas enough with force air cooling on the condensor to make it turn into liquid. A second stage gas condenses at a much lower temperature (ie way below ambient) and boils at an even lower temp. So forced air cooling doesn't work to make it liquid. So you use a heat exchanger. The evaporator of the first stage sucks away heat from the second stage gas so it can turn to liquid (so you need a large first stage condensor to handle the large amounts of heat). Effectively you are making a phase-change cooled condensor for the second stage of the unit. Then your system enjoys very low boiling point gas. You might make the -100C club.

Danger points are that any gas which has a low boiling point will have a rather high pressure at ambient - ie when the system is off and warms up. So brazing skills are important. Some gases are flammable so I'd think there is a flash danger if the system splits. You also need slightly fancier control (or 2 switches and patience) so you don't start the second stage before the first stage has cooled the gas down. Otherwise it's hard work for the second stage compressor.

{inserts 2c}
{steps down from soapbox}

[Movieman]

I would think new people would show more reserve, reason and humility in respect to this activity. If you tell your local friendly hvac guy you want to make a 4 stage cascade to cool your neon and strobe filled computer to be l33t he would rpobbaly laugh at you. I know so because my fiances father is an hvac engineer and I show him an occasional thread and he has some good laughs. Kids these days :cheer2:
The problem with that thinking is that "kids" are passionate! They want to do it now. They read about so and so taking a P4 to 7500+mhz and go " OHHHH Baby I want to do that"..The smart ones come here and ask. They may not know the exact right questions to ask but they are asking for guidance. You are the people who know the costs,risks and dangers. Imagine it was your kid asking and you knew nothing. Wouldn't you want someone to point out all the potential risks and dangers along with the cost factors? maybe suggest a WC setup with a chiller to start instead of a cascade. Thats my point, wasn't meant at all to bash anyone. There are some incredibly talented people here and above in this thread Xeon the MG Pony said it much better than I can:
"It is a complex field but that is what we are here to do, is help initiate the Newbs and hope that they may come to our level or bestow the greatest honor a teacher can have, and that is exceed us."

[epion2985]

:up:

[Hound]

hey, lets put it this way, i am a newb, atm im pondering weather i should grab a 22000 btu compressor, and make a dual head phase change system, atm, i look at the numbers and go....wtf? now what im building is probably unrealistic and stupid and all the rest of it, but the point is, he came here asking for help, plz make it easier for us newbs, were interested in learning, not an education in flaming

[FragTek]

yea but a decent rotary compressor costs $50 and works just as well for these small systems.
$50? Try a $12 rotary :D hehe

[epion2985]

I am sure n00b 0f l337 wasn’t meaning to be offensive. But you have to admit after a few quick read that everyone should do before asking (so they better know what to ask for > so in turn they can get better answers) it becomes apparent that a cascade is no "first try" project. And then asking for advice on how to make something like that, well that’s just arrogant. And most of us know where arrogance leads when dealing with potentially dangerous and deadly projects. If anything a rude discouragement from even trying a cascade is better then a polite hit that its not a great idea. I am sure some flames in their times probably saved a lot of lives :slapass:



hey, lets put it this way, i am a newb, atm im pondering weather i should grab a 22000 btu compressor, and make a dual head phase change system, atm, i look at the numbers and go....wtf? now what im building is probably unrealistic and stupid and all the rest of it, but the point is, he came here asking for help, plz make it easier for us newbs, were interested in learning, not an education in flaming


My hat is off to you. When I see someone realize something is over their heads thats a clear sign of a level headed person who is rational and intelligent. Which in turn makes me for one try alot harder to help a person like that out because I know my words wont be a complete waste of time, nor will they help someone end up dead. cheers Hound :toast:

[best [486]]

$50? Try a $12 rotary :D hehe

holy $#!T!!! $12 on a compressor!!! i can get 1HP compressors that only need a oil change for free!!!:D

and my single stage only cost $100 [I didnt have to pay for a compressor, condensor, refrigerant or oil]
and my first attempt at a cascade resulted in a loud hiss and i'm glad i tried argon as 2ns stage refrigerant or i might not be able to tell you this. do a single stage first

[eshbach]

$50? Try a $12 rotary :D hehe

$50 is a good price for a brand new 1/2 hp rotary, and not hard to find. $12 is hardly a gauranteed deal, and i'm guessing a $12 compressor doesn't include the electronics required to run it.

[n00b 0f l337]

Electronics were $8 more. The rotarys are petty good. $20 total.

[Hound]

cheers epion2985

best [486] do u happen to live somewhere in aus? because i want to start building a water chiller project b4 i go to direct die, because if you do, a 1hp compressor can come in handy

[best [486]]

sorry but i live in minnasota in the US otherwise id be glad to help:(
but try asking appliance stores for broken a/c window units, they are usually free and just have a thing wrong like a tube corroded thrugh and the compressor's fine but needs an oil change:D