New Project, Need Help/Suggestions!

[Jatku]

Hey guys,

This is my first post so hopefully I won't make myself out to look like a total tard :) .

I'm starting up a new project, a BIG project, and I want to make sure everything is done the "Optimal" way. Like many of you other overclockers out there I can't stand letting that last mhz/3dmark point escape me!

(So far) Here's the cooling equipment I'm planning to use:


------Phase Change------

2 x Chip-Con Prometeia Phase-Change Coolers W/ Pilsy's Fitting Mod (http://www.xtremesystems.org/mricee/images/Modding%20the%20Prometeia/Prometeia%20mod.htm).


------Liquid Cooling------

Ehiem 1260 - 600 GPH Pump
*Custom Water-Chiller/Reservoir
2 x Black Ice Micro Radiators W/ 80MM Papst Fans

*I'm going to be using a custom aluminum reservoir of aprox 550ML capacity as a base for the home-brew chiller. The actual "chilling" will be handled by a twin peltier stack (unsure of wattage atm) w/ a solid copper heatsink epoxied to it's bottom/cold side, and a HSF unit epoxied to it's top/hot side. The entire assembly will mount to the top of the reservoir with the bottom heatsink 90% submerged. Great care will be taken to properly insulate and leakproof the reservoir once the chiller assembly is mounted. The chillers pelts will be run off a temperature control unit, and powered by their own independent power source.

Note: I will (In all probability) be using an Enermax EG851AX-VH
650W P-Supply w/ Attached Chip-Con ATX-Power Conditioner (http://www.chip-con.com/details.asp?prodid=100112&cat=5&path=5) to power the other PC components.


Ok, here's my first run of questions:

-What combination of pelts would I need to keep the water at a constant temp of around 1-2c with the system under load?

-Would it be better to go with one more powerful peltier than a pair of lower powered ones?

Note: I know if I do end up using twin pelts it's best for the peltier closest to what's being cooled to be of a lower wattage than the peltier mounted on-top of it.

-I may end up going with a dual proc rig (more on that later), but for now assume that this is a single CPU system... how would you put the two promie's to best use?

-The largest opening I can cut in the top of my reservoir is 3 inches squared (just over 70mm squared), does anyone know of an after-market heatsink that would fit inside these dimensions? ...I rather not have one custom made if I don't have to.

-What HSF combo would you recommend for dissipating the heat built up by the chiller's pelts?


Depending on how I end up using the Promies, I may use one to directly cool the GPU of my graphics card. If not I'll be using a Combination of a Danger Den Water-Block + Cold Plate & Peltier on the GPU/front side GFX Memory, and a small custom water-block to cool the cards back-side GFX memory.

For now I'm just trying to worry about cooling the areas of the PC which are important for performance/overclocking, as I've stated I'm not sure how/wear the two Promies will be put to use yet (although one on the CPU is practically a given), so I have a bunch of liquid cooling equipment to cover my basis.

Here's the blocks I currently own:


------Water Blocks------

Danger Den Maze 3 Series Water-Block (Intel CPU)
Danger Den GPU Water-block (Radeon 9700)
Danger Den "Z-Chip" Northbridge Water-block
2 X Custom Aluminum Water-Blocks For my RIMMS


Allot of the details are still up in the air, as I'm having trouble deciding on certain things (this is one of my prime reasons for posting this thread).

In the end I plan to have practically everything in the system (that's not directly vapor-phase cooled by the prommies) water-cooled, Including my HDD's and perhaps even my Power Supply (http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/content.asp?request=liquidenermax550w&page=1) .

Sense the majority of the components for my liquid-cooling system have 3/8" OD barbs/connectors I was planning on connecting the majority of it with smaller 3/8" ID tubing, and making custom acrylic splitter manifolds to tie everything together... just like Bladerunner used here (http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/largepic.asp?pic=xp750wc078l&ext=jpg) (I'm a big fan of his work).

Note: Bladerunners site (http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/) is a great read if you've yet to check it out... though his project is based around ataining ultimate PC silence, not ultimate PC performance, it's still a great resource for any overclocker that uses or plans on using liquid cooling

So, I was all for the above idea when I started to read about the big performance hit people were experiencing when moving to tubing with a smaller inner diameter.

This brings me to my next question:

-Do you think I'll be taking a huge performance hit if the majority of my system uses 3/8" ID tubing, even though I'll have a strong pump and use 1/2" ID on the "main" lines?


I still have a hand-full of other questions I'd love to ask but it's late, I'm tiered, and this post is bordering on annoyingly long (if it's not there already) so I'm going to cut it off here. I'm sure you guys have a ton of great comments/suggestions, hopefully well be able to go back and forth on things as I plan out / put together everything.

ANY suggestions, comments, and ideas are 110% welcome!

PS: Great forum you folks run here :cool: !

Thanks in advance!
-Jatku :banana:


"I'd never like to wake up as someone else, If I did... my pants wouldn't fit" -BM

[RoydRage]

That sounds like quite a project! It seems like you are really going all out... So the first thing I can spot is; Why Scrimp on the PSU? It is your first most important step.

Now the EM is no slouch but you can do better, albiet for more money But with all you are already spending, how can you hold back for a $200?

Go with the PC Power & Cooling 510 Turbo Cool With external Pots. It will put out way more current, and at Temperature more watts too than the EM. Plus the built quality is much better, there is power conditioning, and the power is much more stable. The pots are one of the things that like you say will "give you that last little bit" in getting the highest O/C possible.... It was worth 40MHz on my rig!
http://www.pbase.com/image/11852457


Here's a shot of the extrernal pots mounted in my Prom/Lian-Li Pro: http://www.pbase.com/image/11567865

E-mail Bob Roark over there, and tell him Tony Sent ya' gm@pcpow.com

Good luck with the project!

and P.S. As far as I understood ChipCon is no longer offering the Power Conditioners...

RoydRage
http://www.maximumoc.com/guides/promli.html

[Jatku]

Hey,

Thanks for the heads-up Royd I'll definitely look into that power supply :D! Do you by any chance have instructions for the external pot mod? I wonder if it's possible to perform a similar mod on the Enermax units... I'm kinda partial to the gold 650W unit I had picked out. Despite the bad rap Enermax garnered with the OC'ing crowd awhile ago (after the discovery of certain shoddy parts, and fluttery electronics) the new units are rather solid. Even Macci was impressed with the 550W Enermax unit I had thrown his way to power some test components he was graciously aiding me in moding. Well that, and my friends company does really swank mods on Enermax PSU's ;), heh.

As for the rest of you, WHAT GIVES!? You guys normally seem more than apt to offer up an opinion, and/or answer a question or two... I can't believe that NO ONE else has any recommendations!

:help: C'mon guys I really do need the help...
-Jatku


"Living is killing me, MAKE IT STOP!" -JH

[RoydRage]

Originally posted by Jatku
Hey,

Thanks for the heads-up Royd I'll definitely look into that power supply :D! Do you by any chance have instructions for the external pot mod?
I'm kinda partial to the gold 650W unit I had picked out.

jatku,

PC Power Does The Mod for you... So I do not have instructions.....

I have a pretty good electronics background, and my friend DaHong Seeto is an electronics genuis who builds his own recording equipment with which he won a grammy! We tested both the latest enermax, and the Turbo Cool 510 in his lab, and the 510 wiped the floor with the EM, It's power is cleaner, and much more stable PERIOD.

The parts in the PC Power & Cooling unit are much more robust, and the built quality is in another league.

Regards, RoydRage
http://www.maximumoc.com/guides/promli.html

[Jatku]

...


We tested both the latest enermax, and the Turbo Cool 510 in his lab, and the 510 wiped the floor with the EM, It's power is cleaner, and much more stable PERIOD.

The parts in the PC Power & Cooling unit are much more robust, and the built quality is in another league.


Ok, ok, down boy! The PC Power & Cooling PSU (w/ Mod) has now FIRMLY replaced the Enermax unit on my components list ;) .


So what's up with the rest of you :mad: ...was it something I said :confused: ?

Too many questions?
Questions not detailed enough?
I have bad Forums Feng Sui :eek: ?
My posting Ju Ju is a bit, "off" ?

I greatly appreciate all of Royd's greatly detailed advice on PSU selection, however I can't believe that only he has any interest in my project/anything to say :( .


Lets try this, a FEW, more DETAILED questions:

-At what (chilled) water temperature should I begin to worry about condensation?

...my goal is to have the water at the lowest temperature it can be w/o condensation, and to add additional peltiers at the cooling sites (GPU, NorthBridge, Etc...). That way I can have temperatures at the cooling sites in the negative C temps , yet not have to insulate the cooling systems hosing (Only the areas around the water-blocks)

-What wattage peltier, or combination of peltiers should I use in my custom chiller to reach the above (questioned) temperature?

...although Ill be using a temp control unit, I'd like to use pletiers with the proper power to reach my desired temp. No reason to waste any extra juice ;) .

-How would you guys recommend putting the two Prometeia units to best use, perhaps some sort of cascade system?

...I've been considering a cascade system using the liquid cooling system and the Promies, or perhaps one using the two Promies together (to achieve the coldest possible temps on the CPU). Whatever I decide I'd like to insure all possibilities have been exausted, and that the chosen method makes use of all the potential cooling ability this rig has to offer.


Please guys :stick: I could really use your help/suggestions :D !

-Jatku


"Don't eat food you don't like just because you ordered it" -JH

[Tweaked!]

Jatku, Welcome to Xtreme:D

Weekends get a little calmer around here for the most part. Some of the 56kers might have to wait a little longer for your post to load too;) You would probably have better success to your inquireries if you split them up into better catagories, like posting the pelt and water chilling questions in the phasechange/ cooling forums. Some of those peoples don't ever emerge out here to the regular life sometimes;)

Roydrage was right too with the psu, PC power and cooling makes the best if you can afford it.

The 3/8" tubing will put a restriction on the rest of your setup, but running the 1/2" the most you can will definitely give you more than running the 3/8" for the whole setup.

And you might wanna try comparing the results of using the Black ice radiator to using a heater core from a chevette. I hear the heater cores perform really well, and probably a little cheaper.

And if I understand you correctly, you're wanting to use watercooling, peltier action, and promie all in one rig? You'll probably be better off running several psu's

[twiztdskatr]

i would use a prome on t3h vid card and one on the cpu

EDIT: your gonna need one for the bios chip, that mofo gets hot as hell ;)

[Jatku]

Thanks for the welcome :toast: ...




You would probably have better success to your inquireries if you split them up into better catagories, like posting the pelt and water chilling questions in the phasechange/ cooling forums.
You make a good point my friend, Ill definitely have to do that :) .



And if I understand you correctly, you're wanting to use watercooling, peltier action, and promie all in one rig? You'll probably be better off running several psu's.
Yeah, I was figuring on that... the Promie's will be powered independently (from the wall), and the pelts will draw from dedicated drive-mounted PSU's. Leaving only the PC components on the main ATX power supply.


I appreciate your input on the system's tubing. I haven't yet decided what sections will be run with which size tubing. Initially I had planned on the only 1/2" tubing being on the main inlets/outlets going to/from the pump and radiators to/from the rest of the system... however now im questioning my logic ;p .

PS: Over the week I'll attempt to break up my topics, and post in the resulting information in the corresponding forums ;) .

Thanks for the input guys, keep it coming :banana: !
-Jatku

[Professor12]

Well from what i have read (I have no actual experience when it comes to "extreme" cooling) the idea of using a peltier to cool the radiator is bad. It has been tried before and it has been shown to be not nearly as effective as just putting the pelt on the specific item you want to cool. From what i have garnered, your best bet would be to get something like a mini freezer, old refrigerator, or a small ac condensing unit and use it to cool your water. By taking out the evaporator and using a resevoir that forces the water to run over it (check out this post http://www.phase-change.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75) you will achieve much much better temps than with trying to peltier cool your radiator (which if you use a water chiller you won't even need). Condensation is a problem obviously as running the coolant at -20 C can cause water to condense so you will need to use closed cell foam/neoprane to insulate stuff, inlcuding your lines if they start forming too much ice on them. Using 3/8 will restrict your flow obviously but you have quite a powerful pump there so i wouldn't think it would be a problem. Personally that is what i would do (and am planning on doing) and use a pelt on the object (like your nb) that you're planning on cooling. Oh and another thumbs op for the p&c power supply :)

Oh and with your prommies i would definatly suggest using one on the cpu and one on gpu. Cascade systems are usually only used if your using exotic refrigerants like r14 or argon which need cooler condensor temps in order to condense. YOu woulnd't benefit nearly as much by a few degress colder on teh cpu as you would by have both your cpu and vid card at less than -30 at load :banana:

[GVCryan]

Welcome to the Xtreme, you sound Xtreme enough for anyone:toast:

Now I am by no means a guru:( but I have a couple ideas that could help (or prove fruitless).

For your water rigging, WS_JP is the man.JP's site (http://jpiperformance.com/)
He puts out the best stuff, and AFAIK is the only way to get Cathar's Blocks without going straight to the scource. (even though that has no bearing on your situation.)

Nohto has some links to some good tec psu's in the pelt forum, check it out. I would go PCPC as well.

Now the rest of this is just some ideas (take with a grain of salt).

I have no clue how to do a cascaded vapor phase system, but find a qualified fridge guy in your area and start asking around.

I take it from your post your trying to set up a pelt cooled water chiller, most likely cooled by an air tec? If you have your heart set on that setup, the Vantec Aeroflow is about 70X70.

I myself would find a watercooler (like in the office) and just run water from that into your res, or even go closed circuit. It is more like 10c than 2c, but it is still pretty good without the hassle.
Some on Ebay (http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?query=water+cooler&newu=1)

Like I said, take it with a grain of salt.

Hope it helps:banana:

[Jatku]

...

Well from what i have read (I have no actual experience when it comes to "extreme" cooling) the idea of using a peltier to cool the radiator is bad. It has been tried before and it has been shown to be not nearly as effective as just putting the pelt on the specific item you want to cool.
I completely agree, I'm not planning on using a plet in conjuction w/ the radiator. what I had in mind is this:

Liquid cooling: section #1

Ehiem Pump(out)-->Chiller/Reservoir-->Splitter Manifold Set(A&B)-->Black Ice Micro Radiator #1-->Black Ice Micro Radiator #2-->Ehiem Pump(in).

Chiller/Reservoir:
The Chiller will be comprised of a custom 550ML aluminum reservoir w/ attached peltier "cooling stack", The pelteir cooling stack will look something like this:

(hot)

[ HSF UNIT ]
[------------- }Peltier(s)
[ Heatsink ]

(cold)


I take it from your post your trying to set up a pelt cooled water chiller, most likely cooled by an air tec? If you have your heart set on that setup, the Vantec Aeroflow is about 70X70. :toast: Cheers, thanks for the heads-up! I'll need to double check the exact measurements of my maximum opening, as long as that checks out it looks like I''ll be using it.

The bottom heatsink will sit 75-85%% submerged in the liquid coolant inside reservoir, while the rest of the "cooling stack" will protrude from the top of the reservoir wear it will be properly secured and insulated.

Note on condensation: I'm hoping to use a temperature control device to keep the liquid temp just above the point wear condensation would form, I'm still looking for input as to what temperature this might be... I'll attempt to push this point (of condensation) a bit lower/colder than normal through anti-condensation chemicals in my liquid cooling solution. This way I should only have to insulate the sites that have direct peltier cooling, and the single hose which runs between my "2ndary Chiller" (see below), and the Mobo's Memory. Of course the Memory Modules themselves will need to be insulated as well.


Liquid cooling:section #2

Splitter Manifold Set:

Section #1:Chiller/Reservoir-->Splitter Manifold A(In)
Splitter Manifold A(outlet 1)-->NorthBridge
Splitter Manifold A(outlet 2)-->MB Ram Section
Splitter Manifold A(outlet 3)-->GFX Ram-Block#1(front)
Splitter Manifold A(outlet 4)-->GFX Ram-Block#2(back)

NorthBrige-->Splitter Manifold B(inlet 1)
MB Ram Section-->Splitter Manifold B(inlet 2)
GFX Ram-Block#1(front)-->Splitter Manifold B(inlet 3)
GFX Ram-Block#2(back)-->Splitter Manifold B(inlet 4)
Splitter Manifold B(out)-->Section #1:Black Ice Micro Radiator #1

NorthBridge:

The NorthBridge will be in the typical Waterblock+Peltier config:

(hot)

[ DangerDen "Z-Chip" Block ]
-------------------------------------} Peltier
=====================} Cold-Plate
[ NorthBridge ]

(cold)

MB Ram Section:

Splitter Manifold A(outlet 2)-->2ndary Chiller--(Insulated Tubing)-->Y Adaptor--(Insulated Tubing)-->MB Ram Modules(1&2)-->Y Adaptor-->Splitter Manifold B(inlet 2)

Note: I have custom made water-blocks for both my RIMMS

2ndary Chiller:

The secondary chiller, or "Ram Chiller" will simply be a waterblock bolted to a HSF unit with a peltier sandwiched in-between them: [/SIZE]

(cold)

[ Water-Block ]
--------------------} Peltier
[ HSF Unit ]

(hot)

I plan to mount this some-what makeshift contraption on its side with the fan blowing out the side of the case... this would seem to be it's ideal positioning.



Oh and with your prommies i would definitely suggest using one on the cpu and one on gpu. Cascade systems are usually only used if your using exotic refrigerants like r14 or argon which need cooler condenser temps in order to condense.


i would use a prome on t3h vid card and one on the cpu

Point(s) well made, I suppose that would be the best/most obvious way to go about it. The last (alternate) idea I was kicking around was using one of the Promies as the chiller, while I'm not experienced enough to have the Prometeia directly connect to the reservoir (similar to what the much more skilled fellow in your link did), I could have it connect to a heatsink which sat in the reservoir. Of course that would require some re-working to my above plans, but than again that's what the design phase is all about :) .

PS: :eek: Sorry for the long post again, and I apologize for my rudimentary text diagrams but their allot faster/much neater than the dribble I would of scrawled in MS-Paint :p .

Have a good night (:eek: err morning).
-Jatku


Living is killing me, MAKE IT STOP!" -JH

[Jatku]

I've been continuing to refine my "plan of attack", I still have a bit more time to spend in the design phase before I start ordering what I don't already have, and begin to strap this all together.

I was reading one of bowman's rather informative post's which brought up a new concern, one I hadn't even touched on...

:confused: Will the 2ndary Prometeia's Evaporator function properly when mounted (upside down) to the graphics board's GPU?


As for the liquid cooling side of things it looks like I'll be revising the system to include a 2ndary loop to cool the chillers peltier stack (in place of the HSF unit). That way I should have no problem maintaining 10-15C below ambient.

Speaking of which...

I'm still trying to figure what wattage of peltier / combination of pelts to use in the "chiller stack" to insure my desired water temps, what would be your recommendations here? I was considering a 150+ wat pelt on-top of a 80-100 wat pelt.

:toast: as always your thoughts are most appreciated!

-Jatku


"Bigger Guns, we need bigger f___ing guns!

[GVCryan]

Well, I'm just guessing on most of this stuff, but...

I don't see why the Evaphead would function differently if mounted vertically. If anything, since the chip would be mounted parallel to the compressor, it would remove the twist from the hose, thereby improving performance.

More than anything, I would be worried about the card not producing enough heat to evaporate the R134a (should be easy) or the r404 (takes alot), and thereby pumping liquid back into the Compressor. Probably not too big of a worry anyway.

My minifridge works on its side, so therefore your second evap head should too. (not the best of analogies but oh well).

Now with the Pelt stack, let me try and understand. I have never seen a dual stack.

You want to go water,pelt,coldplate,pelt,waterblock.

or water,coldplate,pelt,pelt,waterblock.

I would go with an 80, and a 176 on the top theory, or a single 226 on the bottom theory.

Remember, your 2nd pelt will have to remove all of the wattage, + all of the wattage of the water just to break ambient if you go for the top plan.