"Custom made" OS, is that cheating? [Archive]

AKURA

02-24-2006, 03:39 AM

Ehmm, I have a "special version" of W2K that I did throw together...it has a footprint of 98mb and pulls only some 18mb ram virgin...if I used that for my benches...would it be considered "cheating"?

What are the rules for this?

Why would it be cheating, if you tweaked it to the max:D

So what are the differences between your tweaked/untweaked O/S in benchmarks?

Clint

02-24-2006, 03:48 AM

Why would it be cheating, if you tweaked it to the max:D

So what are the differences between your tweaked/untweaked O/S in benchmarks?

0-3% depending on what bench I do..

AKURA

02-24-2006, 03:59 AM

0-3% depending on what bench I do..

Do you also have a tweaked up winxp? If you do mind sharing it:D :D

Clint

02-24-2006, 07:34 AM

Do you also have a tweaked up winxp? If you do mind sharing it:D :D

That would go against both laws and board rules I'm afraid :rolleyes:

[XC] Lead Head

02-24-2006, 07:39 AM

Not if you don't give a serial key:rolleyes: Look at the other threads where people share tweaked XPs

SamHughe

02-24-2006, 07:47 AM

yeah you can just tell us how you tweaked it.

zentrad

02-24-2006, 09:09 AM

yeah you can just tell us how you tweaked it.
Yep...tell us how you do it?

Clint

02-24-2006, 09:43 AM

Yep...tell us how you do it?

Oh, that would take ages...the apps I use is only the start and then I have edited the crap out of quite a few reghives and been at the .dll's cleaning them up as well...thrown in some XP styled icons in the "front"..that demanded some editing as well.
Currently working on (when time permits) exchanging that old DX8 with DX9 directly on the install source...it's working now but still has a couple of issues to deal with.
Kinda annoying to see the install grow from 98mb to a whopping 150 after installing DX9 postinstall...:rolleyes:

[XC] moddolicous

02-25-2006, 01:53 PM

In short, it isnt cheating. The smaller & faster you can make a windows install, the better. Hmmm, a 98mb win2k iso w/ only 18mb ram usage?? That would be really handy to us Dimers. YGPM.

Clint

02-25-2006, 07:52 PM

In short, it isnt cheating. The smaller & faster you can make a windows install, the better. Hmmm, a 98mb win2k iso w/ only 18mb ram usage?? That would be really handy to us Dimers. YGPM.

You misunderstand, ISO is only 46mb big..(fits on a 50mb CC disc)
The installed footprint is 98mb...;)..and that has not been done before...at least not on a regular installable Win2K OS.

[XC] moddolicous

02-25-2006, 07:55 PM

Alright, I understand now. YHPM.

masterofpuppets

03-02-2006, 12:48 AM

I'm quite interested in manually tweaking Windows ISO's, got any guides? Or will I have to go on MSDN and learn the internal workings of how the Windows installer calls cabs so I don't end up making a broken installation? :P

Clint

03-02-2006, 09:13 AM

There is plenty of info over at MSFN ...I've been lurking there for a while;)

I did plug in my ripped W2K3 this morning and did gain a good 30MHz, and lowered .025volts compared to my full XP install...can't swear it's only coz my OS build...but I'm pretty sure it does help to have an OS that are "tipping on it's toes" and not pulling to much resources.

[XC] moddolicous

03-02-2006, 01:34 PM

The only guide I can find on MSFN is to use nlite. I cant find anything with cabs or what-not.

Clint

03-02-2006, 08:41 PM

Well, it has stagnated somewhat...used to be quite popular and buzzing..the info is there, it has just maybe been buried a bit deeper.
I guess ppl are leaning on Nlite a bit more these days.

Nlite is a good "shovel" to get the first bits and pieces out, but the author of that program are keeping it quite general so to speak...meaning not extreme in any sense.

Whatabout I fix us up with a "Xtreme Systems" customized W2K3 that are dedicated to benches only?
It can be done very extreme, if we use dual boot there is no security and network concerns.
I need to have it Ok'd by an Moderator or Admin here first, and it will prolly take me a couple of weeks due to lack of free time.

wwwww

03-02-2006, 08:50 PM

Ehmm, I have a "special version" of W2K that I did throw together...it has a footprint of 98mb and pulls only some 18mb ram virgin...if I used that for my benches...would it be considered "cheating"?

What are the rules for this?

I wouldn't call it cheating.

I have a "3d01 mode" on mine - basically will close all unneeded processes, enable LOD 2, etc for the first 6 tests then enable LOD 3 and allow 01 to only process on on 1 thread for nature.

Though some ppl say LOD is cheating :P but yeah, only gives like 500 points, the threading thing on nature gives up to 2000 (depending on FSB).

Clint

03-02-2006, 08:54 PM

I wouldn't call it cheating.

I have a "3d01 mode" on mine - basically will close all unneeded processes, enable LOD 2, etc for the first 6 tests then enable LOD 3 and allow 01 to only process on on 1 thread for nature.

Though some ppl say LOD is cheating :P but yeah, only gives like 500 points, the threading thing on nature gives up to 2000 (depending on FSB).

LOD?

I really don't follow there, could you give a hint?

alpha0ne

03-02-2006, 09:37 PM

Looking forward to your input Clint :toast:

I, like many, use nLite and my ISO for an average user fully functional is only 138MB though that could be easily cut in half :)

masterofpuppets

03-03-2006, 12:59 PM

I use nLite often to trim the useless crap from my Windows CD's, but I wouldn't say it's extreme. I'll look through MSFN for some info on manually cutting down Windows...

Marvin_The_Martian

03-03-2006, 02:17 PM

LOD?

I really don't follow there, could you give a hint?

LoD = Level off Detail, it's a driver setting. Using the performance sliders in the control panel you're adusting it, and with rivatuner you can adjust it even more.

[XC] moddolicous

03-03-2006, 02:56 PM

I use nLite often to trim the useless crap from my Windows CD's, but I wouldn't say it's extreme. I'll look through MSFN for some info on manually cutting down Windows...
I'll try also. Ever since Dimes has come along, I've been really interested in finding a way to make windows installs smaller and faster.

kiwi

03-03-2006, 04:03 PM

That would be really handy to us Dimers. YGPM.

Isn't linux/unix better for DIMEs etc projects? You can compile any kernel that suits your needs.

Sorry, not the fan of DIMING/Folding...

masterofpuppets

03-03-2006, 04:07 PM

I'll try also. Ever since Dimes has come along, I've been really interested in finding a way to make windows installs smaller and faster.
If you wanna trim the drivers without nLite, I think it's as simple as unpacking driver.cab in the I386 folder, and removing certain files from the cabinet, although I'm not sure if there is more to it than that. I've got vmware installed right now, I'll do some testing.

EDIT: Also, apparently Media Centre Edition (minus the mediacentre crap of course) is just a recompiled/optimized version of XP Pro SP2, I'm not sure on this. But I've got it installed on a vm and it's coming up as "Windows XP Professional". Apparently there is a special build of Windows XP called "Windows Nemesis" or something like that on MSDN, but Microsoft never released it because people would choose it over 2K3, not sure if that is just a rumour though. Anyone with an MSDN Subscription care to check this out?

[XC] moddolicous

03-03-2006, 04:54 PM

Isn't linux/unix better for DIMEs etc projects? You can compile any kernel that suits your needs.

Sorry, not the fan of DIMING/Folding...
Linux seems hard to configure, but I'd give it a shot. Also, if you have linux, you cant manually turn off the comp, you have to shut it down or else it doesnt un-mount.

masterofpuppets

03-03-2006, 06:56 PM

Clint

03-03-2006, 08:12 PM

Been doing a bit of reading on MSFN now, and all the info seems to be under the unattended installation section. Playing around with inf files. I've cut my disk down to 300MB so far, still got alot of stuff to delete though, I'll see how cut down I can get it without breaking anything.

Great!
Now we are getting somewhere, play around with it.:)
Much easier for me to help out if you have some meat on your legs first.

For more info on those systemfiles, go to this dude:
http://www.bold-fortune.com/forums/index.php?showforum=13

He has been around for a long time, not that he knows that much in specifics but he has done all the hard work indexing the dll's and their functions.

masterofpuppets

03-03-2006, 09:04 PM

Thanks, some nice info in there :) I'm gonna goto sleep now, but I'll read up more tomorrow. Should get something usable tomorrow :) I'd probably be better off tweaking Win2K or Server 2K3 than XP for benching, but at the moment I'm doing this for my daily usage, and WinXP does that better than 2K and 2K3. I've got a Win2K disk here to make an image of and I could "obtain" 2K3 for tweaking another time.

Clint

03-03-2006, 09:19 PM

Maybe I should do a minipoll..

Can you please give me indications on what needs to be operational on a pure benching OS?

I mean in terms of very basic functionality, no gaming or webbrowsing or similar...I'm thinking a secondary boot OS that will have no connection with the outer world except providing numbers and screenshots that can be picked up by your primary OS.

I'm pretty new to the OC scene so I need you to provide me with info on the apps used and what they are supposed to be able to do...if they need to have connectivity to databases or the net or such things.

something like this:
1. Sisoft Sandra - Jet Database, Internet
2. CPU-Z - Internet

..and so on.

To make this fly I need input..(and time stealed from other projects)

EDIT:
I saw you have added to your previous post...
W2K3 can be used for pretty much anything, all you need is a tool that MS provides for free, Application Compatibility Toolkit emulates any OS within W2K3 so you can install those things that has a OS checker in denial.

masterofpuppets

03-04-2006, 02:59 PM

Somebody is sending me an ISO for what is supposedly "Windows XP Nemesis". It is apparently a special build of Windows XP with an optimized kernel. I'll give it a shot and strip it down for benching :)

nn_step

03-04-2006, 03:20 PM

just bittorrent search it man

masterofpuppets

03-04-2006, 03:27 PM

Only one on *insert bittorrent site here* and 0 seeds. Bleh. This is starting to breach rules, no more talks of piracy...

nn_step

03-04-2006, 03:33 PM

it isn't piracy if we all own a copy of XP pro

masterofpuppets

03-04-2006, 04:40 PM

And who said that I own a copy? *ahem*

Let's not drift off topic here!

nn_step

03-04-2006, 07:06 PM

And who said that I own a copy? *ahem*

Let's not drift off topic here!
then just pretend like you do and shut your mouth..:rolleyes:
basically we only need a few benchmarking tools and a way to report our CPUz scores

Clint

03-05-2006, 04:26 AM

basically we only need a few benchmarking tools and a way to report our CPUz scores

So, what are you waiting for..?
I asked you guys what tools and benches you considered needed..and what they are supposed te be able to connect to...

If I don't get any feedback I will not bother...:p:

[XC] moddolicous

03-05-2006, 08:11 AM

Tools:
3dmark 01, 03, 05, 06; Aquamark; Super Pi Mod 1.4; Sisandra (maybe); CPUz; Rivatuner (for Nvidia) or ATItool (for ATI) and there are probably a few others I cant think of. As far as what it connects to, I dont think we need internet, plug & play MAYBE because we can save the files to jaz drive, no printer, no UPS, and anything else that we dont need for the computer to function can be turned off.

alpha0ne

03-05-2006, 08:54 AM

I think you need internet for Futermark scores :)

A64 Tweaker and Clockgen would be a must and Prime95 v24.24

Marvin_The_Martian

03-05-2006, 09:04 AM

FM scores can be saved to upload it later ;)

I find no internet helps cutting down running services thus helps scores, all bits help I suppose :)

Clint

03-05-2006, 10:13 AM

FM scores can be saved to upload it later ;)

I find no internet helps cutting down running services thus helps scores, all bits help I suppose :)

Also a lot of network-related services that are hidden in the registry that can be taken out.
;)

Marvin_The_Martian

03-05-2006, 11:09 AM

Also a lot of network-related services that are hidden in the registry that can be taken out.
;)

I usually just disable things from within msconfig/services but that's because atm I don't have seperate benching partitions...

So when ur done, I'll dl the iso and make one :D

Edit:

Would be even better is there was a muli install iso, with 2k sp4,03,xp sp2,x64 all tweaked and filled with the necesarry programs. But idk would be hard to sell everyone who would dl it having a lince for all versions. Btw, never realised untill now but doesn't the installation agremeent say that you can not alter instalation files? Idk would mean nlite is always illegal to which doesn't make sence to me but idk...

nn_step

03-05-2006, 11:49 AM

actually completely remove Internet functionality and keep USB ports working.. then we can just use a thumb drive.. as for the future mark scores.. we could set up Dillo.. it would only take about 1.2mb of space

[XC] moddolicous

03-05-2006, 11:50 AM

I think you need internet for Futermark scores :)

A64 Tweaker and Clockgen would be a must and Prime95 v24.24
Like everyone else said, FM scores & CPUz.cvf files can be saved, so no need for internet. A64 tweaker is a must, but Prime 95?? It isnt a daily install, just a benching install.

masterofpuppets

03-05-2006, 11:55 AM

Argh didn't finish downloading Nemesis, I'll get it downloaded at some point, should be a pretty good benching OS.

[XC] moddolicous

03-05-2006, 06:15 PM

I googled nemesis and all it said was that it was a version of XP that included stuff like ad aware pro, dvd software, and a few other goodies, but no input about it being a faster OS.

nn_step

03-05-2006, 07:07 PM

nemesis windows isn't anything special.. just different TCP/IP handleing.. my thoughts are more towards a heavily stripped version of Windows XP Corperate..

Clint

03-05-2006, 08:48 PM

I usually just disable things from within msconfig/services but that's because atm I don't have seperate benching partitions...

So when ur done, I'll dl the iso and make one :D

Edit:

Would be even better is there was a muli install iso, with 2k sp4,03,xp sp2,x64 all tweaked and filled with the necesarry programs. But idk would be hard to sell everyone who would dl it having a lince for all versions. Btw, never realised untill now but doesn't the installation agremeent say that you can not alter instalation files? Idk would mean nlite is always illegal to which doesn't make sence to me but idk...

You can't reach all the underlying services from msconfig anyhow...
Open regedit and look here:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Servic es
...there is a few, and there is more.

As for the Eula regarding alteration of the source it is borderline, but I refuse to fold for that...if I have bought a copy of XP I will alter it as much as I want...basta!:mad:
At some point we must put the foot down...anyway, MS are aware of Nlite's existence and have not done anything against it. I mean, there are a zillion of apps/utils that removes or alters lotsa files anyhow.

A multiinstall would only complicate things, when going this extreme we are seeing the differences between the OS's to well, and it will only hinder each of theme of their extreme potential..if you know what I mean.

As for the programs, I suggest WPI..a very nice util that kicks in after the install and you can choose wich drivers and utils you wanna plug in...in that way we can avoid bloated drivers and such...maybe even favorize specially tuned drivers for benching, I'm sure there is some out there.:rolleyes:

Clint

03-05-2006, 08:51 PM

Oh, and I'm working with W2K3 for the moment...I believe it's the best OS to use for this.

What do you think?

nn_step

03-05-2006, 08:52 PM

actually what do you say we strip out all the drivers we wont need for install.. Use a very slim browser and see if we can we can strink it to 50mb ISO
and sounds good Clint

Clint

03-05-2006, 09:04 PM

actually what do you say we strip out all the drivers we wont need for install.. Use a very slim browser and see if we can we can strink it to 50mb ISO
and sounds good Clint

There is a lot more than the drivers to take out to reach 50Mb, only remove drivers will not give us any lower systemload...but basically thats right, remove stuff we don't need.

nn_step

03-05-2006, 09:07 PM

So do you think 50mb, benchmarkable/foldable version of windows is reasonable?

Clint

03-05-2006, 09:30 PM

Yes, if we are talking about the iso.
The installed footprint will be harder to get that low, maybe 100-120Mb without pagefile.

..it can be done much smaller, but that will not be possible to boot and install the traditional way...

alpha0ne

03-06-2006, 12:48 AM

I have an XP Pro SP2 Iso without internet that is 96.4MB thats works well, though I only have a licence for XP Pro and 2000 Pro :)

Clint

03-06-2006, 01:02 AM

I have an XP Pro SP2 Iso without internet that is 96.4MB thats works well, though I only have a licence for XP Pro and 2000 Pro :)

I assume it's a Nlite.
The iso is not really of much importance...it's the installed footprint and the resources used when running.
How big is the installed windows directory and how much does it draw in memory when fresh installed?

Nlite is a nice tool to scope out the first set of things, but I think very far from what we are doing here.

About license, we can download an evaluation of windows 2003 that is valid for 3 months...so that shouldn't be any problem ;)

[XC] moddolicous

03-06-2006, 05:59 PM

nn_step

03-06-2006, 06:02 PM

Clint

03-06-2006, 09:01 PM

Just a quick input, is there any chance that you could get Windows 2k3 server 64-bit?? If you look at this thread:http://www.goreblast.com/superPI.htm Windows 2003 server 64-bit was fastest in a couple.

Yes, I did know of the difference but hadn't seen it done like this yet..:clap:

The x64 version it is then, that is actually more interesting beacause I haven't poked in that yet:p:
It's also available as trial:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/evaluation/trial/default.mspx

But I believe we should stick to the older version, my guess is that R2 has more of the DRM/TC technology implemented and are only bound to make it more complicated.

Clint

03-29-2006, 11:32 AM

Errr, I've not been that busy on the assignment...lotsa other things has called for attention.
But after nn_step kindly enough are helping me out with my new 9700gt, I really feel the pressure of getting back on it.:D (thanks bro!)

..after next weekend things will calm down a bit...

nn_step

04-13-2006, 10:00 AM

phelan1777

04-15-2006, 03:24 PM

Msfn?

Clint

04-15-2006, 07:52 PM

Msfn?

http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php ;)

[cTx]Philosophy

04-21-2006, 12:30 PM

I just might have to try nns version one day

Wut all drivers are required?
Meaning are all drivers hacked out?
or the worthless ones never used by 90% of us?

nn_step

04-21-2006, 12:31 PM

I just might have to try nns version one day

Wut all drivers are required?
Meaning are all drivers hacked out?
or the worthless ones never used by 90% of us?
treat it exactly like you would use a normal version of windows

jrw

04-23-2006, 07:28 AM

Im getting it now nn_step. Nice initiative.

We need seeds though :(

Oh, btw. Make a fresh thread for this project :)

EDIT: What CPU is that in your avatar?

nn_step

04-23-2006, 12:09 PM

We have 8 seeds and only one leech..
And that is my first Venice
and please tell me you didn't try to install overclocked...

MikalCarbine

04-23-2006, 12:12 PM

Quick question while I am downloading this

When we burn the iso, are we burning just the iso or do we need to include a bootable iso file (such as one on an original WXP cd?)

nn_step

04-23-2006, 12:15 PM

Just burn the ISO, the Bootable ISO file is included.

jrw

04-23-2006, 02:57 PM

and please tell me you didn't try to install overclocked...

Actually I did :clap:

Marvin_The_Martian

04-24-2006, 05:40 AM

I done that a couple off times also but noticed most off the time it would still go without problems. Think the only time it borked was when I had my htt to high, it doesn't care if I install with stock 2ghz or 2.7.

And I'm downloading now ( even if it's painfully slow ) ;)

alpha0ne

04-24-2006, 08:04 AM

Actually I did :clap:

My chip never goes below 2.8GHz and I've lost count how many installs I've done at these speeds, if your OC is stable then there should never ever be a problem :)

masterofpuppets

04-24-2006, 08:34 AM

And Good news, following Clint's advice I have began stripping windows XP (32 bit because the drivers are alot easier to work with)
Requiring only 200MB harddrive space and A MIN of 128MB of Ram.
With a Native install only using 80MB of Ram and I need some volunteers to help with Beta testing. What is required is a working CD burner and an open rig.
I had to remove a lot of Drivers, so you will need to download and burn your drivers in advance. The CD key and activation is Baked in, so no Cracks required.
Edit:
the torrent is now hosted
http://www.torrentbox.com/torrents-details.php?id=39412

Download away.

disclaimer: you need a valid copy of windows to download that or else its illegal to posses it.
How big is the I386 dir? I'm too busy to download it right now.. I've gotten my ISO down to 110MB by removing all of my useless drivers/components as I usually do, rebuilding the installer (starting an upgrade install, and sticking an installer bootsector in the upgrade dir), but that seems to break alot of stuff, it creates shortcuts on the start menu, desktop, etc, for stuff I've removed from the CD. But, it does cut the size of the disk down by alot (160 to 110).

EDIT: I'll find the guide I used to do this, it's on MSFN somewhere..

EDIT 2: Here it is. http://gosh.msfnhosting.com/part1.htm