DRM coming to Hard Drives

[[XC] Lead Head]

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/02/15/trusted_computing_extended_to_hard_drives/


This is just going way over board IMHO.

Discuss.

[situman]

Good thing Raptors has 5yr warranties. No need to upgrade for at least the next 5 years.

[afireinside]

To much to read, I'm sure theres some loophole somewhere, but these DRM people ALL need to be shot to death no second chance. What they're doing is absurd.

[Lvcoyote]

I think your right. They should spend the resources on developing more stable/faster/larger hard drives instead of this sort of thing.

[Delirious]

Like anyone in thier right mind who knows anything about computers will buy one of those drives unless there are no other alternatives.

[nn_step]

DRM only works if the OS supports it.. Thus Linux/BSD are once again proven superior..

[[XC] Lead Head]

DRM, the way the Trusted Computing Group is doing it will use a chip placed on mobos, HDs, cell phones, set top box, etc... No software involved. Its not like current DRM software based stuff

[trakslacker]

what I don't get, is why the :banana::banana::banana::banana: would hard drive manufacturers say,"Oh, instead of creating a new HD or an improvement for our existing drives to improve our product lineup, let's spend that money to implement DRM into our drives, which will give us NO financial or material gain whatsoever, and will likely hurt sales."

Why in the hell does every company seem to happily agree to implement DRM in its products, even companies where DRM is of no consequence or relevance to thier products or profitability, a la hard drives? I know M$ is a powerful company, but that powerful? And yeah, the root of every last bit of this has to be Billy G, in some form or another.

[Cooper]

Looks like some of us will need to hardmod theirs HDs :D

[nn_step]

Looks like some of us will need to hardmod theirs HDs :D
I'm up for it ::coffee: :gets dremel and soldering Iron: maybe it get an extra couple FPS out...

[trakslacker]

DRM, the way the Trusted Computing Group is doing it will use a chip placed on mobos, HDs, cell phones, set top box, etc... No software involved. Its not like current DRM software based stuff

that is very correct. And the scary part is that the way things are going, within a few years everything really will be DRM infected, and we won't have any alternative options.

The only solace I have is that human ingenuity is boundless, and we WILL find a way around hardware based DRM. I actually foresee a scenario where the first thing we would all do with any new hardware is physically de-solder the DRM chip(s) from the component, and solder in a dummy chip that allows the device to continue operating, but completely removes DRM functionality.

It's times like thses that I'm actually glad we have haxxors, crackers, coders, reverse engineers, etc. in this world.

EDIT: wow, its kinda funny that Coop and I wer thinking of the same thing...

[[XC] Lead Head]

what I don't get, is why the :banana::banana::banana::banana: would hard drive manufacturers say,"Oh, instead of creating a new HD or an improvement for our existing drives to improve our product lineup, let's spend that money to implement DRM into our drives, which will give us NO financial or material gain whatsoever, and will likely hurt sales."

Why in the hell does every company seem to happily agree to implement DRM in its products, even companies where DRM is of no consequence or relevance to thier products or profitability, a la hard drives? I know M$ is a powerful company, but that powerful? And yeah, the root of every last bit of this has to be Billy G, in some form or another.

Sony is also pushing DRM alot. Bill G. even said "Blu-ray is evil" because of its way of DRM protection.

[DeltZ]

meh...i hope us users can escape this drm rubbish :(...

[nn_step]

THis is why God made hackers..
(not crackers because they don't help others or Script kiddies because they have no talent)

[trakslacker]

Sony is also pushing DRM alot. Bill G. even said "Blu-ray is evil" because of its way of DRM protection.

Gates said "Blu-Ray is evil" because M$ supports HD-DVD. ;) That's the only reason. In fact, both BD and HD-DVD make use of the same type or encryption and content protection, called AACS. See other news thread for details.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=89581

[MaxxxRacer]

IMO in a few years DRM will fall flat on its face becasue even the most basic of users will be pissed off with the restrictions.

When that happens their sales will fall like a lead balloon.

[[XC] Lead Head]

You can actually then Bill G. and The trusted computing group for having to use specail DRM moniters or something like that to view HD content on Windows vista

[Delirious]

Im sure the hardware manufacturers are/would be nicely compensated by the companies pushing drm if they implemented it. Makes me sick to think about it.

it seems companies just want to control everyone and everything just so they can squeeze more money out of us.

next they will be pushing mind control implants on us, except they'll say it improves your memory and helps u live longer.

[nn_step]

I don't know about you guys but when a monopoly says something is too restrictive, then we know it is a VERY bad idea

[Pinnacle]

What a bunch of monkeys:slap:

[mursaat]

Ridiculous as usual. Will DRM ever be cracked?

[biohead]

lol im missing something, what exactly is DRM?

[DeltZ]

Digital rights management if my memory after i've just woken up serves me well

[Cybercat]

lol im missing something, what exactly is DRM?
it prevents you from using media that you purchase however you want. It takes away from your basic rights of ownership, and makes it so that you are paying to borrow media more than actually buying it.

This whole thing is disgusting. Establishments like the RIAA, who think they own music, are going to be the cause of their own industry's destruction. In fact, they already have, they're just too blind with greed to see it.

When abosolutely everyone and their uncle is hacking this stuff, when it proves ineffective and useless in the face of the vast majority of consumers, and when their sales hit an all-time low that they can't seem to get out of, they'll have no choice but to pull this stuff back. There's still power in numbers, and they can't forget that it's us they depend on.

[mursaat]

Same thing applies to adding a canon (dunno if that's the term in english sorry, its like a VAT, 1.39€ for every DVD-R9 sold). EU is applying that to every media involved, like HDD, TFTs higher than 19" (pc or tvs, 14% tax), recordable discs, etc.

The funny thing is, in some piracy cases, the pirate won the case, because if there is a canon asuming you're going to copy the content, then you can't be accused twice on the same crime. It's like saying you're guilty until you demonstrate you aren't.

By impossing a canon, they're assuming [too much] that you're going to copy their copyrighted media. So if I've already paid for a "possible future" fault, why won't I go and copy everything I want?

[aMp]

All you need to know about the content industry's vision of DRM and where it all leads is contained in their recent statement that ripping a CD you legally own is copyright infringement. According to them, digitizing your own legally purchased music for convenience or backup is illegal. But don't worry! It's not a big deal, because according to a recent RIAA filing with the US government, "even if CDs do become damaged, replacements are readily available at affordable prices."

Now imagine that an industry with that mindset -- that anything that makes them money is good and legal, and anything that doesn't (in the short run, anyway) can be declared illegal at their whim -- has de facto control over every electronic device you buy.

And unfortunately I really doubt the "market won't let it happen" argument works, for two reasons. First, XS users aren't average consumers; the vast majority of the buying public has no idea what DRM is and will never notice the slow chipping away of the rights they used to have over their own property. Second and more to the point, the issue won't be left to the market. In a couple years it'll be illegal to sell non-DRM equipment, so consumers will have no choice.

Of course, all this assumes that our political leaders have no backbone and do whatever any well-heeled industry wants....

[Disposibleteen]

I dont see why people think this matters. We have found ways around the drm that is out right now so what makes you think that the wont find ways around this?

[Cossey]

there will be ways around it, it just becomes very difficult if it involves multiple hardware mods to do it.

[nn_step]

IF we must Mod to protect our liberties.. than Mod we shall.. Viva La Resistance.. Viva La Linux.. Viva La BSD...

[Delirious]

IF we must Mod to protect our liberties.. than Mod we shall.. Viva La Resistance.. Viva La Linux.. Viva La BSD...

If you could game as smoothly on linux as u do with windows id ditch winblows in a heartbeat.

I think people will notice it no matter how computer illiterate they are. What happens when joe blow buys a cd and tries to burn it to his computer/cd and cant. Obviously hes goin to be pissed.

Look what happened to sony when they put malware on those cd's a few months ago.

the scary thing is the politicians, they're all so dirty and corrupt they would vote for DRM.

[RaZz!]

i'm a very pc addicted person, but when the drm-stuff goes so far that every mouseclick is beeing checked if it was done legally i won't buy pc-stuff anymore.
the first step to stop the rising of drm is to not buy windows vista. if all the people buy windows vista with its drm, the companies will say "OHH, stupid customers, lets implement drm as well, the dumb ass customers will buy it anyway".

i hate the idea to pay for stuff that i only can use with strict limitations. i'm getting pissed every time i read about the future of the digital media... it's just pathetic.

[nn_step]

If you could game as smoothly on linux as u do with windows id ditch winblows in a heartbeat.

I think people will notice it no matter how computer illiterate they are. What happens when joe blow buys a cd and tries to burn it to his computer/cd and cant. Obviously hes goin to be pissed.

Look what happened to sony when they put malware on those cd's a few months ago.

the scary thing is the politicians, they're all so dirty and corrupt they would vote for DRM.
Then I take it you are not familiar with WINE.. infact some major games run better in linux than Windows...:D

[STEvil]

All you need to know about the content industry's vision of DRM and where it all leads is contained in their recent statement that ripping a CD you legally own is copyright infringement. According to them, digitizing your own legally purchased music for convenience or backup is illegal. But don't worry! It's not a big deal, because according to a recent RIAA filing with the US government, "even if CDs do become damaged, replacements are readily available at affordable prices."

So by playing a CD in a CD Player which advertised digital sound or in your computer (which digitalizes the sound at one point or another usually) you are doing something illegal?

Someone should point that out..

Same thing applies to adding a canon (dunno if that's the term in english sorry, its like a VAT, 1.39€ for every DVD-R9 sold). EU is applying that to every media involved, like HDD, TFTs higher than 19" (pc or tvs, 14% tax), recordable discs, etc.

The funny thing is, in some piracy cases, the pirate won the case, because if there is a canon asuming you're going to copy the content, then you can't be accused twice on the same crime. It's like saying you're guilty until you demonstrate you aren't.

By impossing a canon, they're assuming [too much] that you're going to copy their copyrighted media. So if I've already paid for a "possible future" fault, why won't I go and copy everything I want?

By the way, I think the word you were looking for is a tax or (more technically) a levy.

I have an old newspaper clipping scan somewhere, should dig it up.

[Delirious]

Then I take it you are not familiar with WINE.. infact some major games run better in linux than Windows...:D

I have heard varying stories about it but thats it.

[nn_step]

I admit some games perform worse on linux than on windows but some perform better on linux..
Wine is slowly becoming completely user friendly..

[[XC] Lead Head]

i thought the Game optomized Wine was WineX(cedega)?

[Delirious]

It would be cool if ms shoots themselves in the foot with this DRM and everyone switches to linux.

But back to reality we all know that wont happen due to the wide spread use of ms.

[STEvil]

DRM may not make Microsoft shoot themselves in the foot, but it may provide a foothold for *nix if a very competative release can be made advertising the non-need for DRM and showing how the m$'s use of DRM (and everyone elses for that matter) is incorrect and simply due to force of people looking for financial gain.

[Brettbeck]

Well I dont know about any of you guys, but I definitly won't be buying one of these hdd's. I think windows vista will have all this crap on it too. I probably wont be going anywhere near it until its been completely hacked from top to bottom.
I don't know if the people creating the DRM protection & windows vista realise they are completely out-numbered with hackers all round the world that sooner or later will get round the encryption.

[mursaat]

By the way, I think the word you were looking for is a tax or (more technically) a levy.Thanks for the aclaration :)

BTW, Linux is becoming more and more popular. Some people I know that would never thought could try and use it are happy users now. One of them doesn't even know what is a sata drive :clap:

[[XC] Lead Head]

How much you wanna bet the DRM Hard Drives will be those ones which have that large memory chip on them for fast boot up and other stuff that vista will be use.

[Delirious]

I have the vista beta and if you ask me its just a really pretty version of windows with a few added (really annoying) security features.

That and it uses alot more resources than xp.

You can pretty much gaurantee its going to have DRM built in.

[Cybercat]

It won't be long before they drop support for Windows XP.

[biohead]

It won't be long before they drop support for Windows XP.
lol they even support 2k. they can't demand ppl do buy their new fancy overprized stuff, would give them a bad name to drop xp immidiately and they know it.

[Cybercat]

There are a lot of applications and things that have dropped support for Windows 2000.

[K404]

Well..."all" the computer literate community needs to do is create their own software and we cna all use that instead? An O.S. with the lovliness of Linux but the compatability on Windows. Hardware will be easy enough to hack

As long as there are people who know their software to the level of cracking codes and disabling this, I wont be too worried.

[STEvil]

How much you wanna bet the DRM Hard Drives will be those ones which have that large memory chip on them for fast boot up and other stuff that vista will be use.

nothing, because if you want true performance you go SCSI.

[turtle]

It won't be long before they drop support for Windows XP.

98 just became dead in 2005 iirc.
2000 is probably just getting to that point.
XP will probably go on until around 2010, if not longer, especially with the fairly steep requirements over the earlier refresh from 95 to 98. Remember how stubburn and pissed people were about upgrading to win95? I don't doubt vista will be the same way, especially with the "stand-alone dx9 gfx card" requirement ("What, I have to own a GRAPHICS CARD, and it has to be newer than 4 years old?!!") and the fact xp will have been around for 5+ years by it's release, which means a larger base to support for a longer period of time.

BTW, DRM sucks...and I will not buy this harddrive. Why they would be the first to do it (and basically screw themselves) is beyond me...Unless they rely on the naiveness of the generally uninformed public. Wait, they wouldn't do that... :/

[Arkangyl]

So long as services like wine exists, and if any of those rumors about DX10 on PCBSD pan out then I see no reason why any of my computers will ever have Vista on them.

I know the point has been made before but in a QFT moment where I dont have a quote in front of me; by adding in all these DRM chips & the like to stop pirates all these companies are doing is encouraging pirates and hurting the legal customers.

How long till they outlaw pencils because they can be used to copy books?

[STEvil]

how about we outlaw reading books since you could memorize it and repeat it to others?

[Cybercat]

how about we outlaw reading books since you could memorize it and repeat it to others?
hell, copying lyrics is illegal, and you can memorize those too!

[Ouchy]

Too bad people didn't have the foresight to not infringe on copyrights of music, movies, and games. I guess they felt that when the internet was invented that everything became free.

Oh well. DRM, here we come.

[STEvil]

so I had a thought about how this DRM stuff is supposedly going to work.


All this DRM stuff thats comming, would that keep me from playing movies at full quality on my laptop? How about in the DVD player(s) around the house which i'm in no hurry to replace?

Are all of the current DVD optical drives going to become obsolete? Sure they can read the full quality, but as soon as you try to display it you lose the quality..

[nn_step]

with all do respect I will gladly lose some Visual quality to protect my liberties

[STEvil]

when were liberties mentioned?

I paid for HD quality images, I want them.

[trakslacker]

when were liberties mentioned?

I paid for HD quality images, I want them.

yeppers. What liberties do you speak of, nn_step?

[Revv23]

its odd that they dont realize that by treating thier customers like convicts they create a HUGE market for a DRM free company to come in and take away all of thier marketshare.

If google truly wants to kill MS, have them make a DRM free OS. lets see which one people buy. Same thing with hdd companies, mobo makers, amd, intel etc. whoever decides to make there stuff without DRM is going to win the sales war. I think part of the problem is that most people responsible for running companies like this will never know how limiting DRM really is. HOpefully with a younger generation of CEO's and such DRM will be less of an issue.

I don't think any of these manufactures realize that including DRM stuff with thier hardware is like putting a piece of :banana::banana::banana::banana: in the box with the part you are buying and charging double for it.

[Delirious]

It would take more than that to kill m$. They have such a huge consumer base and everyone is used to useing ms products so it would be looked at as a big hassle to learn something else.

Large corporations whos infrastructure is based intirely around ms products, doubt they're goin to switch anytime soon.

The ignorant ms user who know nothing about computers except that when he pushs this or that button it plays his music/movie.

Computer fanatics still represent a minority.


its odd that they dont realize that by treating thier customers like convicts they create a HUGE market for a DRM free company to come in and take away all of thier marketshare.

If google truly wants to kill MS, have them make a DRM free OS. lets see which one people buy. Same thing with hdd companies, mobo makers, amd, intel etc. whoever decides to make there stuff without DRM is going to win the sales war. I think part of the problem is that most people responsible for running companies like this will never know how limiting DRM really is. HOpefully with a younger generation of CEO's and such DRM will be less of an issue.

I don't think any of these manufactures realize that including DRM stuff with thier hardware is like putting a piece of :banana::banana::banana::banana: in the box with the part you are buying and charging double for it.

[Revv23]

so you are telling me that if google marketed a well done os without drm for a good price (do it free google come on!!) you dont think very many would switch?

certainly computer fanatics are a minority, but when something is better, its better, and people aren't fools.

[krille]

when were liberties mentioned?

I paid for HD quality images, I want them.
There is another solutin: Don't pay for HD quality images.

[nn_step]

yeppers. What liberties do you speak of, nn_step?
The right to what ever the hell you want with what you bought without requiring the consent of any corperation..

[Delirious]

The right to what ever the hell you want with what you bought without requiring the consent of any corperation..

If companies were selling something, doesnt matter what, and said it was only capable of doing 'x' for $20.00. Would u buy it and complain that it doesnt do 'y'.

So if the retarded RIAA pushes DRM basically what they are saying is your buying 'x' for $20.00, and even though u used to do 'y' with it now were goin to make it so u cant. I dont think its your right to complain and say u want to do 'y' with it. Thats not your right, your right is to not buy it and buy an alternative that can do 'y'. Or pirate it so u can do whatever u want with it.

Vote with your money, cause if they arent making any of it they'll change, cause we all now all they care about is makeing more money.

Basically they need to decide wether they want to loose alot of money to piraters or a hell of a lot more to people who dont want to buy thier BS products.

[nn_step]

If companies were selling something, doesnt matter what, and said it was only capable of doing 'x' for $20.00. Would u buy it and complain that it doesnt do 'y'.

So if the retarded RIAA pushes DRM basically what they are saying is your buying 'x' for $20.00, and even though u used to do 'y' with it now were goin to make it so u cant. I dont think its your right to complain and say u want to do 'y' with it. Thats not your right, your right is to not buy it and buy an alternative that can do 'y'. Or pirate it so u can do whatever u want with it.

Vote with your money, cause if they arent making any of it they'll change, cause we all now all they care about is makeing more money.

Basically they need to decide wether they want to loose alot of money to piraters or a hell of a lot more to people who dont want to buy thier BS products.
So basically you are saying I should Go from a Passive to an Active Violator Of windows..
Turn half a dozen T3 lines into Bit-torrent hosts of ultimate cracked versions of windows and every flavor of linux/BSD that I can find?

[Delirious]

So basically you are saying I should Go from a Passive to an Active Violator Of windows..
Turn half a dozen T3 lines into Bit-torrent hosts of ultimate cracked versions of windows and every flavor of linux/BSD that I can find?

No, some people chose to go one way and others the other. Doesnt really matter to me which way you go. But complaining about someone taking away a right u never had in the first place is what im saying.

[nn_step]

No, some people chose to go one way and others the other. Doesnt really matter to me which way you go. But complaining about someone taking away a right u never had in the first place is what im saying.
really because I kind of remember being able to do that in the past.. Like make a 2Ghz processor run at 3Ghz, or when I dumped about 3.4V into my ram.. we break the warrenties every day here and do more than the hardware says we should be able to do.. Every bit of software I have bought is still usable to what ever degree I desire..

[Delirious]

really because I kind of remember being able to do that in the past.. Like make a 2Ghz processor run at 3Ghz, or when I dumped about 3.4V into my ram.. we break the warrenties every day here and do more than the hardware says we should be able to do.. Every bit of software I have bought is still usable to what ever degree I desire..


Lol, you void your warranty on hardware, which isnt illegal, but on software there is this thing called a copyright and user license agreement etc thats been around for a long time and that makes certain things illegal.

Everybody has there version of what is wrong and right.

[mursaat]

This is only to stop the tennis match between Delirious and nn_step :D

Well some contribution: I think the problem here is a lot of unaware average Joes won't know what they are buying, thus finding they can't do a lot of things they do now with their new comp.

I can understand my rights shorted to some extent (like opening my baggage in an airport to avoid bombs) but what I'll never accept is lessen my liberties because some uber-rich ppl wants more and more :nono:

[JamesAvery22]

Lol, you void your warranty on hardware, which isnt illegal, but on software there is this thing called a copyright and user license agreement etc thats been around for a long time and that makes certain things illegal.

Everybody has there version of what is wrong and right.

copyrights are in place to prevent sharing and resale. If I buy anything. And I mean anything. I have every right to copy it as many times as I want to in the comforts of my own home. I just don't have the right to give/sell/share those copies to anyone else.

DRM is more like the sword from the movie Blade. You buy the sword with the agreement "You must hold this sword in the correct fashion, with a specific glove we sell, and only cut targets that only we sell else your hand is cut off." Not "If you hold this sword in the wrong fashion or use it on targets other than ours you can't return it."
I should be able to hold my sword however I f'ing want to, in the privacy of my own home.

And just to point out, that Seagate guy that was in the article just did a proof of concept. I didn't see anything that said Seagate as a corporation was adopting this. Just that Seagate paid an analyst to do the POC.

[mursaat]

Sorry but me spanish, lotsa initials, what's POC?

[nn_step]

copyrights are in place to prevent sharing and resale. If I buy anything. And I mean anything. I have every right to copy it as many times as I want to in the comforts of my own home. I just don't have the right to give/sell/share those copies to anyone else.

DRM is more like the sword from the movie Blade. You buy the sword with the agreement "You must hold this sword in the correct fashion, with a specific glove we sell, and only cut targets that only we sell else your hand is cut off." Not "If you hold this sword in the wrong fashion or use it on targets other than ours you can't return it."
I should be able to hold my sword however I f'ing want to, in the privacy of my own home.

And just to point out, that Seagate guy that was in the article just did a proof of concept. I didn't see anything that said Seagate as a corporation was adopting this. Just that Seagate paid an analyst to do the POC.
Exactly.. it is my right as a comsumer to do what I want with my product in the comfort of my own home..
If I want to Swing a harddrive on silly string over my head while running through my living room I have every right to do that and I'll be damned if any Company is going to telll me differently...

[JamesAvery22]

Sorry but me spanish, lotsa initials, what's POC?

Proof of Concept. Many times, in the business world, non-tech types(managers, VPs, etc) will meet and have an idea on how something should be done without knowing if it can be done. Someone will make a very basic prototype/model to prove whether or not it can be done and document it.
Many times, because of the cons that the POC's illustrates, the idea dies after a POC is presented...
Of course sometimes groups forget to do POC's at critical points and move down a long dead-end road because they believe it can be done a certain way and it really can't. Forced innovation is fun :D

[nn_step]

what would be even more Fun if the entire world told Microsoft where to stick it... DRM that is..

[mursaat]

Fun when its not intended to piss people :D

Now that I think of it, how would work DRM in hard drives? AFAIK, DRM is an encryption that validates username+password on the net, then uses the key to decrypt the content. Where do DRMed HDDs "enter the game"?

[mrlobber]

people aren't fools.

That's a statement I'd like to be proven, imho, it's completely the other way around ;)

[nn_step]

That's a statement I'd like to be proven, imho, it's completely the other way around ;)
for the most part people are fools to most things but when it hits you in the face.. it isn't that hard to ignore..
kind of like the difference between forced to give up your right to bear arms and the right to free speech..
Less people object when it doesn't effect them...
my personally beliefs are best said by Demolition man
I like to read.
I'm into freedom of speech and choice.
I like to sit in a greasy spoon...
...and think, "Should I have steak
or barbecued ribs with gravy fries?"
I want high cholesterol.
I want to eat bacon, butter and cheese.
I want to smoke a Cuban cigar
the size of Cincinnati.
I want to run through the streets naked...
...reading Playboy magazine
because I might need to.
I've seen the future.
It's a 50 year-old virgin...
...drinking a banana-broccoli shake
and singing "I'm an Oscar meyer wiener."