Best Single Stage Refrigerants/Blends

[Fhqwhgads6680]

Hello again guys!

I've been doing alot of resreach lately. And I just thought this would be a good idea to help people decide the best refrigerant to run on a single stage. The other goal I have for this, is Kayl Mentioned that drewmister was running a special blend and is capable of no load temps of -72c and load temps of -58c. I'd like to figure this blend out :) . Or atleast something of similar or close performance.

So here is my proposal, And I'd like as much participation as possible. If ya are running a SS then PLEASE post your results. I will try to keep this updated in this first post aswell.

Here is the format I'm after:

Refrigereant/blend - Oil type - Compressor Size(hp)/type - Cap tube length - Best temps no load/load (on evap)

Load = 150w heat load tester or a close alternative ( I.E. CPU at atleast 150w apporximation)

and any other notes you would like to make about your setup.

If anyone has suggestions about this thread I'd be glad to hear them. Thanks guys!

Results:

Alkylbenzene oil

1. R507/R22, not sure of exact ratio, mostly 507- 1/2hp matsu - 81" .031 - -52/-46C - Eshbach

POE oil


Mineral oil

[eshbach]

my best single stage is:

R507/R22, not sure of exact ratio, mostly 507- Alkylbenzene oil - 1/2hp matsu - 81" .031 - -52/-46C

it is a very straightforward system with a small condenser and the cap tube run through the suction line... no special heat exchangers or anything.

i'm not sure if going for one of those -70C single stages is really a great idea... you are going to have to run pretty low pressures regardless of what gas blend you've got, and that's bound to hurt capacity... sure, with a big enough compressor/condenser and enough tuning, you could probably get it to hold, but that's a lot of work to do every time your load changes.

[Weee]

I'm interested to see this as well... I would say also for loaded numbers describe the load as well for a more useful piece of info!

[Fhqwhgads6680]

you mean like Loaded temps running small fft's prime 95 for a given period of time?

[Weee]

Like loaded on a XXXW heat load tester or X model CPU @ X.XX Volts and XXXX MHz sort of thing

[Fhqwhgads6680]

yeah thats a good point. I'll add this to the first post.

[s7e9h3n]

IMO those numbers produced by Drewmeisters units seem a little "funny" to me. Unless he's using an outrageously large compressor or somehow is autocascading his units, there's no way it would be capable of idling @ -72C and loading @ -58C with a 150+Watt heatload.....

[Dynasty]

Here is thread about the SS unit by Drew that your proabably refering too.

Stealth's fx55 SD was loaded using this unit.

http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=196772

All I can say is Drew does wonderfull stuff. :)

[dinos22]

oh this is an interesting thread............really wish c-buzz lived in sydney or other way around so we can experiment with different refrigirants :cool: :toast:


i love this line
Thanks guys The gas is a blend I developed over the last 8 months...this is the third revision of it. I can mix the blend up or down from mild to wild depending on intended use of system. :slobber: :slobber: :slobber: :slobber:

[s7e9h3n]

Here is thread about the SS unit by Drew that your proabably refering too.

Stealth's fx55 SD was loaded using this unit.

http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=196772

All I can say is Drew does wonderfull stuff. :)
I still have my doubts since there's obvious instances where Stealth is hiding is temps. Prime95 can be tweaked so it doesn't place a huge load on the cpu. Tell him to take a screenshot on the 16th iteration of Spi32m @ 1.61V and then maybe I'll be more convinced ;)
EDIT: Forgot to add - OPB can get *similar* but not quite as cold temps on his PCIce single stage - which is still one of the best single stagers I've seen.....

[Carlz0r]

I still have my doubts since there's obvious instances where Stealth is hiding is temps. Prime95 can be tweaked so it doesn't place a huge load on the cpu. Tell him to take a screenshot on the 16th iteration of Spi32m @ 1.61V and then maybe I'll be more convinced ;)
EDIT: Forgot to add - OPB can get *similar* but not quite as cold temps on his PCIce single stage - which is still one of the best single stagers I've seen.....
You mean like this?
http://img394.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2478mw.jpg

[s7e9h3n]

You mean like this?
http://img394.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2478mw.jpg
:up:

[Fhqwhgads6680]

I dunno Kayl seems to believe it, and drew seems pretty reputable. And those are evap temps....It may be exaggerated I dunno..but I'd still like to figure out the best blend of refrigereants possible for a single stage reguardless, and I figure with the wealth of people that run SS systems here, we should be able to figure out a dang good blend

[s7e9h3n]

I dunno Kayl seems to believe it, and drew seems pretty reputable. And those are evap temps....It may be exaggerated I dunno..but I'd still like to figure out the best blend of refrigereants possible for a single stage reguardless, and I figure with the wealth of people that run SS systems here, we should be able to figure out a dang good blend
The problem here is that you can't just take one blend and mix it with another to achieve a "superblend". The blend either has to be worked out through trial and error or someone has to already have the formula for it........

[Nyx]

I think you should change your question. You should ask what should of refrigerant would be best to play around with for a mix. So it could not only save cost, time and safety.

R22 and CO2 is cheap to play around with but your design must be good. So that CO2 can condense properly and especially its triple point.Which is a pain to work with. I will trying out this combination soon.

[pocketbikeuk]

the best single stage blend is something called es20 which is 20% r23 36% r125 44% r143a boiling point -64 molecular weight of 90 tc of 67 and a psia 585 mpa 4.03 i believe the dewmister has used something like this.

[johann]

In my opinion, r402 is perfect for good temps and good load handling without extreme pressures

[Fhqwhgads6680]

Is its load handling better than 404a or 507? I know 410a is pretty good from what I hear, but how is its load handling and isn't it pretty high pressure?

[johann]

Is its load handling better than 404a or 507? I know 410a is pretty good from what I hear, but how is its load handling and isn't it pretty high pressure?


Yes

Pressures are a little higher but nothing extreme

[Tyrou]

+1 for R402A, I switched my units from R404 to this, including my cascade's first stage, temperatures went down ~5C, and it holds a higher load at a fixed temperature :)

[johann]

+1 for R402A, I switched my units from R404 to this, including my cascade's first stage, temperatures went down ~5C, and it holds a higher load at a fixed temperature :)

this is what I found also

[jinu117]

IMO those numbers produced by Drewmeisters units seem a little "funny" to me. Unless he's using an outrageously large compressor or somehow is autocascading his units, there's no way it would be capable of idling @ -72C and loading @ -58C with a 150+Watt heatload.....

Well, about twice the size of condenser than mach units, 1/2hp compressor, and ES-20, I see no reason why it would be impossible to get that temp :) Is it viable 24x7 is diff question though :)

And another +1 for r402a. Honestly with proper tuning (r404a and r402a has slightly diff cap tubing length for optimal temp under load), temp diff is only about 2-3c. But still it is 2-3c :)

[Weee]

Jin, Johann, and Tryou,

In the spirit of the thread, can you provide your best result with 402A and 404A and all the other info he asked for just so he can have a nice summary at the top?

Also, people who are using/have used other gas (kayl + 290) etc. chime in!

[Dynasty]

How about r402A blended with r410A. ? :)

[dinos22]

Well, about twice the size of condenser than mach units, 1/2hp compressor, and ES-20, I see no reason why it would be impossible to get that temp :) Is it viable 24x7 is diff question though :)

And another +1 for r402a. Honestly with proper tuning (r404a and r402a has slightly diff cap tubing length for optimal temp under load), temp diff is only about 2-3c. But still it is 2-3c :)
stephen's probably a little upset it fairs well compared to his monster million compressor cascade :p:

[s7e9h3n]

stephen's probably a little upset it fairs well compared to his monster million compressor cascade :p:
LOL........you can believe it all you want, I just wanted to see some hard evidence of their claims. And btw, my autocascade is in a whole other league ;)
BTW - my autocascade is ONE compressor ;)

[dinos22]

LOL........you can believe it all you want, I just wanted to see some hard evidence of their claims. And btw, my autocascade is in a whole other league ;)
BTW - my autocascade is ONE compressor ;)
i thought you said there are 6xcompressors in that thing.....oh well i'm going nuts hehehehe

soooo what gas/es are used in your one

[s7e9h3n]

i thought you said there are 6xcompressors in that thing.....oh well i'm going nuts hehehehe

soooo what gas/es are used in your one
6-STAGES, i.e. 6-Heat Exchangers.....:p:
It's charged with 12+ gases which include R14/R1150/R410a/R402/R401/R416/R410b/R290/R116/Isceon 89...I don't remember all of them.....

[Gray Mole]

heheh he's got 6 stages, but only one compressor. That's the beauty of his autocascade.

About 14 gasses or so, and a more complicated system than this planet has ever seen :D

Yes, I've been jealous of his Autocascade ever since he got it, and I still am :p:

Gray

[s7e9h3n]

heheh he's got 6 stages, but only one compressor. That's the beauty of his autocascade.

About 14 gasses or so, and a more complicated system than this planet has ever seen :D

Yes, I've been jealous of his Autocascade ever since he got it, and I still am :p:

Gray
LOL...I think Reggie's jealous of it too....he keeps offering to trade a dual compressor cascade for it and tells me to let him know if I ever see another for sale anywhere.....:p: I'm sure this 180lb. beast wouldn't have a very comfortable ride if it were to be shipped to the U.K......;)

[Gray Mole]

Nope, I'm pretty sure the case would have seen some abuse on the way over here :rolleyes: though with the amount of insulation in there I think the internals would have been just fine :D

It's a rare find for sure. I mean how often do you see Polycold Autocascades on Ebay? :p:

Though really the only person who I'd trust to convert it for DD is Reggie so it would be facing a long trip if I ever found one anyways :rolleyes: I just don't have access to the assortment of gasses that he has, and that's a big part of why your Auto has such amazing performance :toast: well that and Chilly1 is a god ;)

Gray

[dinos22]

6-STAGES, i.e. 6-Heat Exchangers.....:p:
It's charged with 12+ gases which include R14/R1150/R410a/R402/R401/R416/R410b/R290/R116/Isceon 89...I don't remember all of them.....
yeah well i'm a total n00b at this crap....heheheh happily strokes my R290 1hp rotary unit that can't cold bug my Opti 146 heheheh even at -40C idle with 300+ HTT hehehe :rolleyes:

i was told that i would get much better results with R404 gas..........how much does regassing cost for something like 404 or 402 or 507....etc maybe i can find someone in sydney that has access to this gear

so who knocked up your unit s7?

[Gray Mole]

I'm not sure where Kayl is exactly, but I'm sure he'd have everything you'd need to get it sorted and regassed.

Kayl is also VERY good with tuning rotaries ;)

Gray

[s7e9h3n]

yeah well i'm a total n00b at this crap....heheheh happily strokes my R290 1hp rotary unit that can't cold bug my Opti 146 heheheh even at -40C idle with 300+ HTT hehehe :rolleyes:

i was told that i would get much better results with R404 gas..........how much does regassing cost for something like 404 or 402 or 507....etc maybe i can find someone in sydney that has access to this gear

so who knocked up your unit s7?
Chilly1 did (if "knocked up" = modded :p: ). I've also got a 1hp Rotary Single Stage GPU cooler that's "supposedly" charged with R404, but I'm not quite sure....

http://www.cryo-laboratory.com/upload/userfiles/s7e9h3n/Baker/top.jpg

http://www.cryo-laboratory.com/upload/userfiles/s7e9h3n/Baker/-70.jpg

[Gray Mole]

I remember when I saw that gpu cooler the first thing I thought of was 'make mine a double' :D

If you have dual card, it would be very easy to add a second suction and thin evap and still get -50 per head performance with that kit.

I'm almost done my triple on a 3/4HP rotary, and it's amazing how much power they have even when you start adding 2 and 3 heads to 'em.

Gray

[s7e9h3n]

I remember when I saw that gpu cooler the first thing I thought of was 'make mine a double' :D

If you have dual card, it would be very easy to add a second suction and thin evap and still get -50 per head performance with that kit.

I'm almost done my triple on a 3/4HP rotary, and it's amazing how much power they have even when you start adding 2 and 3 heads to 'em.

Gray
Really? That's quite an interesting idea :idea: The cooler's performance is unparalleled....unfortunately, so is the noise :rolleyes:

[dinos22]

Really? That's quite an interesting idea :idea: The cooler's performance is unparalleled....unfortunately, so is the noise :rolleyes:
heheh the noise yeah it ain't your 24/7 type cooler rotary.......grrrrrrrr grrrrrrrrr grrrrrrrr heheheh

how long does it take for your one to drop to peak temps s7....on the rotary that is......i think mine takes 10-15 minutes or something

[Gray Mole]

lol yup, you can't beat a rotary compressor for noise :D

When I tested the load temps on my triple evap just using some old mach2 heads and 402 I got -38 average per head with a total load of 425 watts.

Rotaries can really maintain good vacuum with multi heads where a recip compressor loses more, even with the same HP rating.

I've done an EPR system to restrict the gpu heads on my triple for now though and with 404a I'm running about -55 on the cpu evap and -35ish on the gpu evaps with no load, but I haven't had time to get back to load testing it yet.

Quite likely I'll be setting the gpu evaps for about -25 to -30 performance which should boost the cpu performance a little more too, and stick some 402a into it when I'm satisfied it's 100% balanced out too.

And yes, it IS quite loud, but when the case get's here I'll soundproof it and it should really help cut down the noise ;)

I really need to get it loadtested, then I can get a thread going on it :rolleyes: so I'm not OT on this one :D

Gray

[dinos22]

I'm not sure where Kayl is exactly, but I'm sure he'd have everything you'd need to get it sorted and regassed.

Kayl is also VERY good with tuning rotaries ;)

Gray
Kyle is only 4000km west ROFL heheheh

[s7e9h3n]

heheh the noise yeah it ain't your 24/7 type cooler rotary.......grrrrrrrr grrrrrrrrr grrrrrrrr heheheh

how long does it take for your one to drop to peak temps s7....on the rotary that is......i think mine takes 10-15 minutes or something
Mine takes about the same, which is fine since that's EXACTLY how long it takes my autocascade to drop down too. These are the temps which I normally boot at. The top is the temp of the evap on the autocascade and the bottom is the temp of the evap on the gpu cooler. I turned the thermometer on a couple of minutes after I started the units up, that's why the timer reads 12:xx minutes.....

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/6735/boottemps7mj.jpg

[sluflyer06]

this thread is funny....i don't see why you guys find the temps so hard to believe, drewmeister spends months tuning these units and builds liquid helium cacades for MRI's for a living...his DD units run on the ragged edge and have huge capacity i'll post results and all the proof you want in the next week when my DD unit arrives from him, its going on a 570J (think lots of heat, should be a good test). I think that the general phase builder simply isn't willing to spend the time to achieve a perfect/near perfect tune, also of course he's got his secret litlte blend that is the focus of this thread...

[stealth17]

I just wanted to clearify some info on my DD-X concerning the temps. In some of those screenshots I have blacked out the core temps for a few reasons. I did not know you could update the clock speed in MBM5 after running clockgen until just recently :yawn: I've also had some troubles with the 3700+ and mounting, which caused very bad temps. We are talking around -4c core temp. That is due to the bad mounts and I've gotten everything straightened out.

Secondly, I have done some testing tonight with my Opteron 150 and my new GSkill 2x1gb HZ. While testing, I took some temperature graphs, screenshots, and even a video for you guys. I know these temps may be hard to believe for a single stage but you must realize how much time and effort Drewmeister puts into a single unit. It took between him and I about 10 months to design and build this unit. Most of the time delay was from me changing my mind 100 times about every little thing. Luckily Drew is a very understandable gentleman, and he worked with me to develop probably one of the best single stage DD coolers ever.

Thirdly, I can not release internal photos or very much design info. This is all done in respect to Drew's wishes. He spends a lot of time and money on these units and to have some n00b come along and create the same thing would break his heart. He has worked for the top and would like to hold that spot with honor. If you don't think that is fair, too bad, leave this thread promptly.

If you read through that whole thread at Extreme Overclocking you will realize that most of what I've said here is all in that thread. Everything from the bad mounts to the compressor size.

The only info I am going to give you is that this is indeed a single stage DD cooler, running a 1/3hp LBP compressor. If you all need proof, I have a watt-o-meter and I can show you the power draw. That will show you right away how big the compressor is and how many there are.

Here is the screenys and things I have shot tonight. Watch the video to see the truth proven first hand on tape. Mind you the core temps are all with the IHS still on :D

http://stealth17.com/images/DD-X/MOV00326.zip
http://stealth17.com/images/DD-X/32m%20copy.jpg
http://stealth17.com/images/DD-X/280%20copy.jpg

Fake temps? Myth BUSTED

[Lando95]

I can attest to Stealth's temps as well. Drewmeister is currently building a unit that has my name on it, should be here next week. He has been developing these units for over a year now. Also, he told me that the gas blend being used is a proprietary blend, something that he has been working on for quite some time now, and is not a commercial product.

[Gray Mole]

I just wanted to clearify some info on my DD-X concerning the temps. In some of those screenshots I have blacked out the core temps for a few reasons. I did not know you could update the clock speed in MBM5 after running clockgen until just recently :yawn: I've also had some troubles with the 3700+ and mounting, which caused very bad temps. We are talking around -4c core temp. That is due to the bad mounts and I've gotten everything straightened out.

Secondly, I have done some testing tonight with my Opteron 150 and my new GSkill 2x1gb HZ. While testing, I took some temperature graphs, screenshots, and even a video for you guys. I know these temps may be hard to believe for a single stage but you must realize how much time and effort Drewmeister puts into a single unit. It took between him and I about 10 months to design and build this unit. Most of the time delay was from me changing my mind 100 times about every little thing. Luckily Drew is a very understandable gentleman, and he worked with me to develop probably one of the best single stage DD coolers ever.

Thirdly, I can not release internal photos or very much design info. This is all done in respect to Drew's wishes. He spends a lot of time and money on these units and to have some n00b come along and create the same thing would break his heart. He has worked for the top and would like to hold that spot with honor. If you don't think that is fair, too bad, leave this thread promptly.

If you read through that whole thread at Extreme Overclocking you will realize that most of what I've said here is all in that thread. Everything from the bad mounts to the compressor size.

The only info I am going to give you is that this is indeed a single stage DD cooler, running a 1/3hp LBP compressor. If you all need proof, I have a watt-o-meter and I can show you the power draw. That will show you right away how big the compressor is and how many there are.

Here is the screenys and things I have shot tonight. Watch the video to see the truth proven first hand on tape. Mind you the core temps are all with the IHS still on :D

http://stealth17.com/images/DD-X/MOV00326.zip
http://stealth17.com/images/DD-X/32m%20copy.jpg
http://stealth17.com/images/DD-X/280%20copy.jpg

Fake temps? Myth BUSTED

Well for one, this isn't 'your' thread, this is (or was until it went off topic as usual :rolleyes: ) about trying to determine good gas blends so that we can try to get the best out of our single stagers.

As well, if you want people to believe your results then it might be an idea to post ALL of your results, both good and bad. Blanking out cpu temps because you have poor contact is somewhat dishonest and doesn't exactly look good does it? Most of us tend to post all of our results, and it makes it a lot more honest and believable.

Lastly I'll voice my personal opinions about being 'proprietary' about gas blends and system configuration. One of the reasons I have always liked XS is because of the willingness to share information here. That includes gasses, compressors used, pipework configuration, etc.

Those who have come here to actively promote their products and not get involved in the community generally haven't lasted very long here.

Even Chilly1, other than when he's been using gasses under NDA agreements, has been very helpful with blends of gasses or ways to improve system designs and this is HIS forum and where he sells HIS products.

Drewmeister does some really nice work, but if he's not willing to share his experience with others to further a common goal for the advancement of PC cooling then really all that's going on is 'advertising' and it's not really welcome here in my opinion, that belongs in the 'for sale' section.

I suppose I do as much as I can to help the 'noobs' as you put it improve their designs or give pointers on how to work with the gasses, best I can. Maybe in Drewmeister's opinion I would be one of those 'noobs' too. The point is that if people have that elitist opinion it just reminds me why they don't fit in on this forum.

Just a few of my own opinions.

Gray

[dinos22]

well said gray :toast:

[Fhqwhgads6680]

Hey guys, I am very glad the thread has sparked interest. I do want to make some clarifications tho. First of all This thread wasn't intended to be about cracking ONLY drew's blend or debating if drew's temps are believeable etc. I started this thread mainly because I saw kayl show the temps in his thread and it got me thinking....There obviously must be ways to improve the performance of our single stages. So I figured hey, why not try and get the XS community to work together to make our own blend that can produce results that are compareable to drew's or atleast as close as we can get.

As far as drew method's I'd personally like to say that he obviously knows what he is doing...but what gray said exactly right... I am a HUGE "noob" (I generally hate this term, every has to start somewhere. There is a difference between someone who is new and wants to learn and someone who doesn't know anything and ACTS like he does....thats the people no one likes) when it comes to this stuff...But I want to learn and am willing to put the time and effort forth to learn as much as I can. This IS the major reason im here at XS. I couldn't have gotten this far (which really isn't very far yet lol) without the people here. Of all the forums I've visited, XS is the only one where I've felt like a part of a TEAM.

Also, As far as the "myth" about his temps, I'm not doubting them. Kayl seems to believe it, and I'm not after "proof" honestly I could care less. However, if he wants to keep his methods, blends etc secret so he can protect his work thats fine. BUT when anyone keeps "secrets" its going to cause suspicion, regardless, and thats the road he chooses, and should be willing to accept the skepticism.

Honestly I'd really appreciate it if we could drop the whole drew thing and really discuss what we set out to do, which was to find the best blend/configuration for single stage systems. I know that I can't do it myself, but with the wealth of information and talent here im sure we can do it. Also I don't mind discussion in this thread at all, but I would like to get some results that I can track and post in the front of the thread for those that wish to view them. Also I understand that A SLHX is used to subcool the cap tube even more to ensure the gas is condesing properly ( correct me if I am wrong) but how much does this improve over normal subcooling of putting the cap tube through the suction line? How much more condensing ability does this give us? I've noticed that R23 and R116 have really good BP temps but what other ones are an option and how hard would it be to get these to condense?

Keep up the work guys and thanks for the interest in a NOOB'S idea!

:toast: Cheers to XS :toast:

[Skinny13]

Ι didn't like the word noobs either...


Forums purpose is --->Share tha knowledge...

====================================

Sth else
why do u guys mix 507 with r22? (why do u use r22? )

[boardy]

I have to agree with Gray and Fhqwhgads6680 here. I'm what you guru's would call a n00b at this, but as Gray will tell you, I've been speaking to him on MSN and email constantly asking questions, and he's been nothing but a GREAT help!!

I knew absolutely nothing about building, regassing or anything about Phase except using it until I spoke to Gray. Now with his help (minimal cos he said the best way is do it and he'll check it) I'm designing my first GPU S/S unit, a S/S Chiller and also a cascade!!

Reading these forums has been a fantastic help to me, and this thread has been interesting me from when it was posted, as my CPU S/S Gray is building for me is going to have a blend.

All work I do will be ages behind you lot but I'm learning and plan on posting my results. Knowlege is power after all as they say, so the more we all know, the further we can push the boundaries. If people don't want to do that then that's their choice I guess, but a little big headed in my opinion.

Cheers
Boardy

[hatemi]

The real problem in finding a good blend is getting the gases needed. Very few of us can afford or even source all the refrigerants needed to do it properly. Even tough I have rather large collection (R134a, R290, R404a, R402a, CO2, ethylene....) I havent found any magic blends with those gases. I owuld need to source a refrigerant with bp at around -70ish and with good capacity, but still with reasonable condencing preasures.

[kayl]

The real problem in finding a good blend is getting the gases needed. Very few of us can afford or even source all the refrigerants needed to do it properly. Even tough I have rather large collection (R134a, R290, R404a, R402a, CO2, ethylene....) I havent found any magic blends with those gases. I owuld need to source a refrigerant with bp at around -70ish and with good capacity, but still with reasonable condencing preasures.

dont ya hate not having a refrigeration license i know i do.
r290 1150 and co2 is all i can get and as hatemi] we have tried many blend with no success.

the old fire extinguishers have some gas cant remember the name it boils at -55c though that would be worth a try. Ethane is another good gas, here in Australia is over $1000 for a bottle.

Sorry to drag up drews name again.
I under stand now why drew didnt want to post his results over here at XS.
thats why i linked to a thread over at extreme forums web site.
drew does keep his blend a secrete i know thats against what most ppl are about here at XS. I my self i have always given all my info with all my systems. My little journey with autocascads and my cascades are a good example with my original hx work.
I use to be a XS junky (still am), post on every thread that poped up helping anyone i could daily. But now life has changed and only on net mainly Fridays helping. Family just takes up all my time, being a dad is something different.

IF ppl were to follow extreme forums on a regular basis they would find that drew is like chilly1 of extreme forums. hes very very help full and helps all the guys over there with their overclocking and phase change stuff. In fact you wont see any threads of his own spamming the forums showing off his product. Each person is different some post lost other keep to them selves (projects). Drew does phase change for a living chillers and stuff for communications etc, pc cooling is a passion for him not a money making sceme. If ppl were to try and make their own cooling systems and know how much $$ goes into the research, ya would be better off just being a regular frigy and make a killing.
Drew has helped me alot over the last year and i ow him a big thankyou.
Funny thing is that ppl are questioning him for some reason, and he doesnt even post here. Really anyone can fake their own temp if want, but why would they??
MBb with a die off set and away we go, (now I have the coldest system).
Anyone can get -70c if they try hard enough (noload) take a pic and pretend ya have it benching for a few hours)
But what would one gain??

[kayl]

The real problem in finding a good blend is getting the gases needed. Very few of us can afford or even source all the refrigerants needed to do it properly. Even tough I have rather large collection (R134a, R290, R404a, R402a, CO2, ethylene....) I havent found any magic blends with those gases. I owuld need to source a refrigerant with bp at around -70ish and with good capacity, but still with reasonable condencing preasures.

dont ya hate not having a refrigeration license i know i do.
r290 1150 and co2 is all i can get and as hatemi] we have tried many blend with no success.

the old fire extinguishers have some gas cant remember the name it boils at -55c though that would be worth a try. Ethane is another good gas, here in Australia is over $1000 for a bottle.

Sorry to drag up drews name again.
I under stand now why drew didnt want to post his results over here at XS.
thats why i linked to a thread over at extreme forums web site.
drew does keep his blend a secrete i know thats against what most ppl are about here at XS. I my self i have always given all my info with all my systems. My little journey with autocascads and my cascades are a good example with my original hx work.
I use to be a XS junky (still am), post on every thread that poped up helping anyone i could daily. But now life has changed and only on net mainly Fridays helping. Family just takes up all my time, being a dad is something different.

IF ppl were to follow extreme forums on a regular basis they would find that drew is like chilly1 of extreme forums. hes very very help full and helps all the guys over there with their overclocking and phase change stuff. In fact you wont see any threads of his own spamming the forums showing off his product. Each person is different some post lost other keep to them selves (projects). Drew does phase change for a living chillers and stuff for communications etc, pc cooling is a passion for him not a money making sceme. If ppl were to try and make their own cooling systems and know how much $$ goes into the research, ya would be better off just being a regular frigy and make a killing.
Drew has helped me alot over the last year and i ow him a big thankyou.
Funny thing is that ppl are questioning him for some reason, and he doesnt even post here. Really anyone can fake their own temp if want, but why would they??
MBb with a die off set and away we go, (now I have the coldest system).
Anyone can get -70c if they try hard enough (noload) take a pic and pretend ya have it benching for a few hours)
But what would one gain??
my :2cents: if it counts

[Fhqwhgads6680]

Yeah, again im not doubting his temps at all. I saw them and thought man thats awesome....So I thought it would be an awesome idea to see if we can come up with something that would work or get close. Steven's gpu cooler from bake showed -70 no load, and I've seen a few in the -60 range.

I've been trying to look up refrigereants that would be a good basis to use, but The only ones that seem viable are R116 R23 and CO2. From what I have seen its pretty hard to get CO2 to condense properly and you have problems with DICE forming, but may be able to get it to work....Also I noticed that R508A and R508B are mixes of 116 and 23 yet their boiling points are lower than both 116 and 23. How is that possible? I saw that Gray mention trying to mix 23 with 402a But I got thinking again, and isn't 402a a pretty high pressure gas? would doing a mix of say 23 or 166 with 290 be viable since its pretty low pressure? Also are there any refrigerants with BP's between -50 and -75...I don't seem to be able to find any...

[Fhqwhgads6680]

I was looking around...anyone heard of R846 has a BP of -63c wonder if it may be viable, dunno what oil it'd run under or anything like that tho

[kayl]

I was looking around...anyone heard of R846 has a BP of -63c wonder if it may be viable, dunno what oil it'd run under or anything like that tho

gonna have to ask ya dad if he can get:toast:

[pocketbikeuk]

i wanna try the r23 125 143 mix if anyone has some of those gases id be willing to pay you to play around with them a bit and il send you a recovery cyclinder and any gas you use recover in there and send it back then i will have a strange coctail to play with myself.

[pocketbikeuk]

–––– R-23/125/143a (20.0/36.0/44.0) 90.16 -64.8 -84.6 67.3 153.1 4.03 585 0.000 5500
– ES20

baisically 404 without r134a and some r23 instead

404A R-125/143a/134a (44.0/52.0/4.0) 97.60 -46.6 -51.9 72.1 161.8 3.74 542 none none -6.6 -2837 A1 0.000 3800

410A R-32/125 (50.0/50.0) – Suva 72.58 -51.6 -60.9 72.5 162.5 4.95 718 none none -4.4 -1892 A1 0.000 2000

es20 has a lower pressure than 410 by quite a bit and 410 is used in ss gasses so would it not be a viable gas? 410 is 718 psia vs 585

[Fhqwhgads6680]

yeah I think this weekend im gonna go with my dad down to the refrigeration supplier in dayton, and see what they have/can get a hold of and let you guys know....I also see that R13b1 has some good properties, but it looks like its being replaced, is it one of hte refrigereants being phased out?

@pocketbike, Ya I would be interested if ya can get that to work and condense properly. I'd say I could see what I could get a hold of for ya, but ya in the U.K. ....it sounds like its tough to get a hold of refrigerants over there... :(

[pocketbikeuk]

yeah I think this weekend im gonna go with my dad down to the refrigeration supplier in dayton, and see what they have/can get a hold of and let you guys know....I also see that R13b1 has some good properties, but it looks like its being replaced, is it one of hte refrigereants being phased out?

@pocketbike, Ya I would be interested if ya can get that to work and condense properly. I'd say I could see what I could get a hold of for ya, but ya in the U.K. ....it sounds like its tough to get a hold of refrigerants over there... :(

if i had a license id go out and buy the gases and do it myself if you feel like giving it a go could be good. a company made it a few years ago it worked in cold room freezers quite big compressors but no cascade was needed then. its critical temp is 67c so i cant see why it wouldnt condense

[fatty]

After building my cascade I find CO2 a bit of a bugger realy if you use too much you dont get enough oil or cooling back to the compressor
I wouldnt mind trying just a tiny drop in a ss see how it reacts with some 507 ?? If I get a chance next week I will give it a go :)

Oh yeah and Grey has 6 stage envy

[StoneRhino]

Straight R410a is very cold. No load temps are in the -70's.

I am just tuning my system now but -75~ is where I am at with no load.

[4everCS]

If you guys are in the states you can get your refridgerant license for under $80 from esco. Then you can buy watever you want.

[hatemi]

Im pretty sure the gas was R13b in the old fire extinguishors...Halon or something....

[Unknown_road]

–––– R-23/125/143a (20.0/36.0/44.0) 90.16 -64.8 -84.6 67.3 153.1 4.03 585 0.000 5500
– ES20

baisically 404 without r134a and some r23 instead

404A R-125/143a/134a (44.0/52.0/4.0) 97.60 -46.6 -51.9 72.1 161.8 3.74 542 none none -6.6 -2837 A1 0.000 3800

410A R-32/125 (50.0/50.0) – Suva 72.58 -51.6 -60.9 72.5 162.5 4.95 718 none none -4.4 -1892 A1 0.000 2000

es20 has a lower pressure than 410 by quite a bit and 410 is used in ss gasses so would it not be a viable gas? 410 is 718 psia vs 585

r404a without r134a is called r507 :D

[Icy]

ok so get some r507 then add some r23 then to get a mix =)

[kayl]

Im pretty sure the gas was R13b in the old fire extinguishers...Halon or something....

Halon thats the stuff i was referring to thanxs hatemi.
its ment to boil -55c or something. I havnt ever seen anyone use it though, herd a few ppl mention it before though.

[boardy]

Halon thats the stuff i was referring to thanxs hatemi.
its ment to boil -55c or something. I havnt ever seen anyone use it though, herd a few ppl mention it before though.

I believe no-one will use that because if I remember rightly it's toxic, which is why they stopped using it in stuff.

I may be wrong but I seem to remember they only use if for PC Server rooms where people don't normally go as it's very good for electrical fire.

Cheers
Boardy

[Marvin]

sorry the question, but how would you make a blend ?
like i have 2 bottles of different gases, how can i proceed ?
sorry the noobie question......:confused:

[hatemi]

You first charge the system with one gas. Then ad some other gas in the mix and see what happens. Its basically just trial and error method.

[Marvin]

thanks hatemi , but how can you guess the blended gas pressure ?

[pocketbikeuk]

r404a without r134a is called r507 :D

yeah but its in the wrong mix 2 much of the other 2 gases in 507 to make es20 properly

[Fhqwhgads6680]

Ya could still give it a try and see how it works... 507 would be a good base gas to start with I would imagine.

[kayl]

this is my best noload blend check the running pressure also.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70318&highlight=ethylene+single

2psig 200psig high side at -72c. Had a little subcooling cooling after the suction line before the comrpessor using just a 1/4hp compressor.
problem was at load temps sucked. Low side pressure would rise to 40psig or so and temps were around -33c which is worst than spraigh r290.
blend was some 1150 and some 290. when i get anothe r1200btu of c-buzz i plan to work on something different this time littlser seperator and some SP11 capillary line as the condesner followed by SP2 capillaryline with dual capillary line feed to the cpu evap block.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35255&stc=1

[quintus]

Has any1 tryed care50 with less propane? i can get r170 so thats y i'm asking.
Any other combination with ethane guys?
regards,q

[kayl]

Has any1 tryed care50 with less propane? i can get r170 so thats y i'm asking.
Any other combination with ethane guys?
regards,q

I have hc22/502, it’s the same product as care 50 95% 290 and 5% ethane.
I think higher percent of ethane would work a lot better. Lots of subcooling.
I think using hydrocarbons would be best and they mix better.
Ie if can get iso-butane or butane would work well together