Where's this JPEG been modified? [Archive]

View Full Version : Where's this JPEG been modified?

kmhtkmhtkmht

01-17-2006, 07:41 AM

Calling all photoshop experts - I am needing to know where this photo has been modified.

There was a football (soccer ball) in this picture somewhere (disregard) all the three at the bottom and it has been digitally altered to remove it - looking for the eagle eyed among you to help me out - thanks.

kmhtkmhtkmht

01-17-2006, 08:17 AM

Originally there was a football (soccer) ball here and it has been digitally altered - I am needing to know where it was and place one of the bottom three near or at the place it was originally - any concrete ideas?!

Alec

01-17-2006, 08:51 AM

In the air coming towards the kid with the red shirt at hte front of the crowd.

Vapor

01-17-2006, 08:52 AM

kmhtkmhtkmht

01-17-2006, 09:09 AM

I have a bunch of professional footballers trying to figure it out too - that is a screen shot of private competition page - it's a private competition that I really want to win any more ideas?

Just printed a PDF of the picture using a high quality setting and cut and pasted in Photoshop - the file reattached here - the original isn't that high quality and is just been optimized for screen display - I just keep thinking in order to remove a whole soccer ball there must be some obvious area where there is visible loss of some sort that GIVES it away - the size of the football I know is the colored one's at the bottom of the screen - I love the way you put it in your post, any more helpers please?

http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/3838/untitled13kr.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This is the PDF crop in Photoshop at 150 DPI - I don't know if this is as I did change up the DPI counterproductive...

I guess having 2 pictures is better than 1 but I think it's a given that compression loss is there, everyone else is working pretty much on the same source as the first picture but I guess it's not only Photoshop know how but also general physics I guess - I have quite a lot riding on this so all help is useful!

Frisch

01-17-2006, 09:14 AM

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42456&stc=1&d=1137518082

kmhtkmhtkmht

01-17-2006, 09:16 AM

That far left?!

Frisch

01-17-2006, 09:23 AM

Notice that the guy in red behind, is trying to look around the "fat" guy. All eyes seem to match this one, even the "fat guy. Maybe the ball should be a tiny little lower, but else i'm satisfied. My guees is, that the front red guy, is heading the ball.

Frisch

01-17-2006, 09:37 AM

Secondly, i don't think you'll find any signs of the ball in the grass, cause it's in the air.

kmhtkmhtkmht

01-17-2006, 09:39 AM

I thought the fat kid was looking at the camera and the skinny running guy behind is doing just that, running but the more I think about your response the more I think it is there to but I am still confused - has the red shirt HEADED the ball or is ABOUT TO HEAD the ball or is he KICKING it in mid air - I have 3 guesses that I will use to place the 3 balls in 3 spots, I think I'll stick one near where you are saying but lower by about 1 cm but I am gonna mull on this one a bit - the footballers are still thinking but I have no clue!

Frisch

01-17-2006, 09:46 AM

He has headed the ball, all action is in front of the "fat" guy, meaning the ball is there somewhere.

Frisch

01-17-2006, 09:47 AM

I'll make a fast with lines from eyes, so you can see my point.

Vapor

01-17-2006, 09:53 AM

Thx for the higher quality version, it only reaffirmed what I was thinking....there are definite meshing problems around where I put the grey spot in the first and exactly where I put the ball in this pic.

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/2034/untitled13kr24uh.jpg

EDIT: if you look "under" where I put the ball (I can post a .PSD if you like), you'll notice that it's a perfectly round, identically shaped dark-green patch that doesn't have the proper graining.

kmhtkmhtkmht

01-17-2006, 09:55 AM

Least I get 3 chances, just got off the phone with a famous Pro Footballer (Soccer Player) I know and he just threw me a wild one by saying the ball is near the red kids head! His reasons being that the guy with the blue hat is looking at it, the ball has been headed, he told me that - here's what I mean:

http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/5363/untitled18ci.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I totally don't agree with him but I don't play football and he does everyday so I'll give him that much - lucky I get 3 guesses!

Vapor

01-17-2006, 09:57 AM

Hmmm....I didn't even look there, but yeah, I see a spot where the meshing doesn't work above the head for sure, it's ~5-10% too big though.

Frisch

01-17-2006, 09:58 AM

Now, take a good look at this one.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42458&stc=1&d=1137520705

Vapor

01-17-2006, 10:02 AM

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/9405/untitled13k3r1fv.jpg

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/9862/untitled13kr39yp.jpg

kmhtkmhtkmht

01-17-2006, 10:23 AM

Now I am REALLY confused... but least I have quite a bit of thinking to do.

Magnj

01-17-2006, 10:30 AM

thats true Vapor...thats a really good guess

trakslacker

01-17-2006, 11:17 AM

Vapor placed it correctly the first time. There is a clearly non-mathcing section of grass right where Vapor placed the ball in the first pic. No question about it.

Now I'm not a famous soccer player, but I have played soocer my entire life(since I was 3). What I can tellyou is that he is NOT heading the ball. Let's start from the beginning, though.

First off, what must be known is that the ball has not been contacted yet. The first few points will cover this.

1) If he had already made contact with the ball, if he had kicked it his leg would have already swung past his body and would have been fully extended. If he had headed it, his head would be down and his plant leg would have been fully extended, b/c he would have already needed to generate the power needed to send the ball back the other direction. And for either way he contacted it, his arms would have been behind his body. to illustrate, try any type of kicking or forward lunging motion with your arms held out in front of you the whole time. Now try the same motion but swing your arms past your body as you do it. You can much more power when you seing your arms. The ball is still coming in.

2) The kids in the background(red shirt and #1 shirt) are looking at the player. If he had already headed or kicked the ball, they would be looking downfield already.

3) Everybody is slowing down. The kid in the backgournd red shirt is coming off of his stride. You can tell by the trailing leg and the fact that his plant leg is completely straight. If he was still in the act of running, that plant leg would be bent already to push him forward again. The chubby kid is doing the same thing. His trailing, indicating that he had been in motion, and his plant(left, in this case) leg is perfectly straight, thus there can be no forward progress, i.e. he's stopping for a moment. Finally the stocking cap kid right behind the ball kicker is actively bringing himself to a stop so that he doesn't get kicked. If the kicker had already made contact you would see parts of this kid's body beginning to progress forward again, even if his stride is still halting. However every single phsyical indication on that kid says "STOP!" Everyone so far has thought he is looking over the kicker's head, but he's not. When you slow down like that, your head follows your body, meaning it leans back as well, which is why his head appears to be pointed up. However, if you look very closely at his right eye, you will see a fair amount of eyelid, and will see that he is actually looking down a bit. Specifically, he appears to be looking right past the kicker's stomach, which is hwere the ball would be coming in at. Again, don't be fooled by the position of his head, look at his eyes. They aren't wide open at all, but rather focused downward.

4) The kicker would never head the ball from that position. Since the ball is infact coming in, and has not contacted the kicker yet, the kicker would never have himself in that position for a header. Heading a ball is not simply letting it hit you in the forehead, you put the entire force of your body behind it. In the position where he is at, he would generate almost no force up through his body. to demonstrate, stand up from your chair, stand on one leg, lean over on that one leg and jump just before you fall over. You can't get more than 3-4 inches off the gorund, and its a very weak jump at that.
He is, however, in the perfect position for a kick. His setup for a one-touch kick is fundamentally sound. The next part of his motion would be to swing both arms behind him to generate twisting force as he extends his leg from the knee and continues in a spinning motion. Assuming the ball is in the air where Vapor placed it, and coming towards him, he is going through the exact motion to make full contact at maximum force, without question.

Add all this to the fact that there is a clear mismatched spot in the grass as vapor pointed at, and there is really no question as to where the ball is at.

So yeah, place the ball where Vapor said the first time, and you win. Hope this helps.

kmhtkmhtkmht

01-17-2006, 11:43 AM

Wow thanks for such a detailed response - so post #3 aka Vapor's first post is the right one? With that spot it just seems so obvious that is why I would look at all the other options, I bet you everyone else is gonna stick the ball there, as in there will be a lot of people doing this competetion but I think I have the edge as I know footballers and you guys are great at looking at it from a technical perspective - I have three guesses so I can just put all three balls at that vicinity or use the remaining two for two alternate ones - I really do appreciate everyones help - I hope to excite a few more people to help by perhaps offering a cash prize for the response (albeit with some good reasoning) that'll make my final three choices - I'll determine this amount later.

How many other people agree with trakslacker re the position of the ball in being as in post #3?

saaya

01-17-2006, 01:14 PM

My best guess....the compression is giving me false-positives though. Anyway, look at the eyes, they all sorta meet there (except the fat chick looking at the camera) and you can KINDA see a blur outline on top of improperly meshed grass.

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6940/football8ij.jpg

no, check out the two kids on the right in front, they both look much higher than the spot you guessed.

rofl Frisch :lol:

woa dude, lasers! :eek:

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/9405/untitled13k3r1fv.jpg

saaya

01-17-2006, 01:33 PM

i say the ball was pretty much in the middle of the pic.

there are several possibilities, id say write down all of them and compare what speaks for and against each theory and then try to re-enact the situation, what happened on the pic?
then youll find the right position and right theory imo :D

the right guys were running towards the left, but the one on the far right just stopped, look how hes leaning backwards.
why did he stop?
to prepare to shoot the ball?
to not crush into the kid in front of him?
to jump up because the ball is higher than he thougt?

saaya

01-17-2006, 01:41 PM

hmmm after looking at the pic some more i think the ball was on the lower left part of the pic

Frodin

01-17-2006, 03:00 PM

What if the ball was closer to the camera?
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42474&stc=1&d=1137538669
:p:
But seriously, it's hard to say.

Overconfidence

01-17-2006, 05:08 PM

Played with contrast and image quality, can't see anything obvious (Unless I'm looking in the wrong place).. a bit of blurriness and oddity between the kid in the red on the right and the kid next to him... Plus that's where they're all looking.

Why?

Axylone

01-17-2006, 05:33 PM

The rag in the hand of the boy with the dark red shirt in the foreground suggests that he is pivoting, exactly like one would to volley the ball.
I think its somewhere in this area:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42476&stc=1&d=1137547911

How do you think that the person removed the ball?

trakslacker

01-17-2006, 05:53 PM

How do you think that the person removed the ball?

photoshop. It's not difficult if you know what you're doing.

As far as your deduction, yes he is pivoting and preparing to hit the ball in mid-air for a one-touch volley as I had stated above. However, I disagree with your assessment of ball placement. Since all the kids are looking down rather than up toward the sky, that suggests that the ball has taken a low trajectory for the entire flight, rather than a high, arcing shot such as a punt or goal kick. Judging from experience, any ball that is kicked that low for any reasonable distance is kicked quite hard. Thus, in my estimation, if the ball were in fact only 1-2 feet from the player, his leg would already be extended and he would be about half-way through his kicking motion.

As it is, however, he is still preparing for the kick, which IMO would indicate that the ball a bit farther away than that. Again, I believe the ball is lcated in the direct vicinity of the possible flaw Vapor found earlier.

Bloody_Sorcerer

01-17-2006, 05:58 PM

right on that kid's knee i'd bet; right in that blurry patch.

STEvil

01-17-2006, 08:52 PM

this is what I see.

usually when people look at something their noses are pointing pretty close behind or right on (as in a bit of lag between head turning and eye turning).

Also seems to be he's gonna kick the ball and the ball is being tossed to him from the person holding the camera.

Kid in green in back is looking over left shoulder of person in front of him, not right, carefull you dont get caught up i perspective ;)

Axylone had it right.

edit

he's not going to kick it with any amount of force, btw.. his stance would off-balance him. I also put it slightly close to him (ie: should have been "higher" to idicate closer to the camera).

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42487&stc=1&d=1137559898

IFMU

01-17-2006, 10:39 PM

No reason to post multiple threads on same topic.
Threads merged, which is why the 1st couple of posts look a bit odd.
Placed in
XtremeSystems Forums > Software > PhotoCHOP

IFMU

einCe

01-17-2006, 11:23 PM

normally i can point these things out in seconds, but the image quality on this pic it too bad for me to give a definate answer

STEvil

01-18-2006, 12:34 AM

.... i got bored. Here's your avatar fixed ifmu? :D

its now 1:30am, crap :slap:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42492&stc=1&d=1137573197

PS - dont kill me anyone, I was bored! I swear! :stick:

edit

oh crap, I didnt get rid of a stutter and used wrong compresion. fix it tomarrow..

IFMU

01-18-2006, 02:39 AM

.... i got bored. Here's your avatar fixed ifmu? :D
lmao, thank you, but it's not needed. I know there is plenty of things I messed up with this avatar. This was the first gif/avatar file I made. First time I messed around with gif animator, there are a few things I am sure I could do to fix it up. Like making it more fluid for one. Just using it for sentimental reasons really. lol

kmhtkmhtkmht

01-18-2006, 05:16 AM

Thanks for all the help so far, so is it safe to conclude that most folk think it is roughly where Vapor stated it'd be in Post 4 and in the realm of Axylone's vicinity post in post 27?

Vapor

01-18-2006, 05:21 AM

I still say where I first put it....there's no evidence of any photoshopping in that circle axylone pointed out, and from a football point of view, that doesn't make sense to me (then again, I'm an American).

kmhtkmhtkmht

01-18-2006, 05:27 AM

The stakes in this competition I am in is quite a lot - is it possible that the photoshopper was THAT good and left no reminsence of editing and purposely made some "Evidence" so that people would hazard their guesses there?

I am now in the midst of discussing how abouts to offer a cash reward to any one that offers the most coherant and sound judgement.

Frisch

01-18-2006, 05:31 AM

Thanks for all the help so far, so is it safe to conclude that most folk think it is roughly where Vapor stated it'd be in Post 4 and in the realm of Axylone's vicinity post in post 27?
I'll stick with mine the second, at axeltones, the guy at the left is looking futher, it doesn't make sense.
left between middle and bottom somewhere, thats my guess.
I can only see the picture as, all action infront of the "fatty"http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42496&stc=1&d=1137591049

trakslacker

01-18-2006, 01:19 PM

are the stakes for this high enough that whoever is holding the competition would hire a professional artist to edit out the ball? b/c if so, then yeah, its possible to completely remove any trace of the ball and leave no clues as to where it was originally.

Vapor

01-18-2006, 03:52 PM

Yeah, National Geographic does it....the decoy spot is easy enough to make as well.

But I guess that's why you get three tries though, right? ;)

STEvil

01-18-2006, 08:56 PM

I just realized i've seen this before somewhere a couple years back... no idea where though.

I say there are two possibilities: My first guess, and that one or more of them persons in the pic were added to the pic.

Also I should note that a couple of them are looking at the camera, not the "ball".

IFMU - Same reason i've still got mine ;)

kmhtkmhtkmht

01-19-2006, 01:16 PM

This competition was not meant for the technically minded. It's target audience is merely people who would hazard a guess and would stump up the considerable fee in order to register their guess - all from a panel of pre-selected eligibles - I bet I am the ONLY one who is even seeking out help from Photoshop Learned Folk, fair enough I got an professional atheletes opinion but I still think he is off especially with all the valid points Vapor and company made - I get three guesses, I am confident enough to place 2 down - one according to vapors first guess, and the second at STEvil's logic - I am still seeking a third - anyone else willing to chip in and add some knowledge?

RTB

01-19-2006, 02:34 PM

I'm with Frisch, something in front of 'fatty' is the center of the action. His legs are very blurry and lack detail, so I'd say the ball is a lil' higher and a bit more to the right.

Greenshirt-fella seems to be looking straight at the camera, same with the no1-fella. Red-shirt-fella in the back at other redshirt-wearer, who is going to kick that ball. Fatty is trying to follow the ball, same with the other two in the foreground.

For an exact location, I'd say right next to fatty, below red-shirt-fella.

Of course, all IMHO.

ex2cib

01-19-2006, 03:21 PM

im going to go with two possible guesses, its right where vapor says it is, well, i think it might be slightly higher, if you get the picture and zoom in with photoshop on that point, there almost seems to be a circular pattern appearing, (thats the red box)

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42545&stc=1&d=1137712806

the blue circle is the other thing that bothered me. that is the only spot in the picture with flat grass, the rest of the grass is normal, standing up, but right there it is flat, just something else to look at

but if i had to choose, i would go with the red box

ex2cib

01-19-2006, 03:28 PM

sorry for the double, just looked @ it again, wondering if anything effects in photoshop would help

ran a high pass on it, now look @ that spot again, see if something sticks out to you

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42548&stc=1&d=1137713225

Frisch

01-20-2006, 03:54 AM

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42566&stc=1&d=1137758082

kmhtkmhtkmht

01-20-2006, 04:24 AM

What did the High Pass thing reveal? - I can see two "Scratches" in the area round where Vapor first guessed and where Axylone guessed...

Any more ideas on what the High Pass revealed?

I am narrowing down the guesses, ( I can submit 3)

1. Vapor's Original Guess
2. Axylone's / STEvils's Guess (both pretty near each other)
3. (TBC)

Any more ideas?

Vapor

01-20-2006, 04:45 AM

If you do the high pass with a smaller radius (bigger effect), little extra shows up....the spot above the red shirted guy on the right seems to be all JPEG artifacts, but they're there fairly inexplicably.

kmhtkmhtkmht

01-20-2006, 05:17 AM

So has that High Pass revealed anything I should know about?

ex2cib

01-20-2006, 09:23 AM

there just seemed to be something weird about that spot to me when i did the high pass, and whenever i did the lower radius on it, that spot didnt' change that much from what i remembered

Entity_Razer

01-20-2006, 11:35 AM

I'm with StEvil on this one.

Where he put it, you can see the grass is darker there but with less structure.. lemme open photoshop and confirm :)

Overconfidence

01-20-2006, 06:29 PM

Post #4's area, if studied, looks like a faint blurred circle. It's slightly less focused than the rest of the surrounding area.

kmhtkmhtkmht

01-21-2006, 02:12 PM

I am quickly nearing the deadline and hereby offering a $50 dollar reward to anyone who gives me the most logical and accurate third guess of where the football is - providing I win in the competition that is - I will immediately after winning will send the $50 dollars via PayPal to whomever offers the most agreed upon and logical (albeit well explained) third guess.

Overconfidence

01-21-2006, 02:56 PM

It could be here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/Overconfidence/football3.jpg

(Or a bit left and up from there).

The red circle is based on a slight bit of blurriness I see there, but the overall location is the only other logical placement of the ball that I can see.

The kid on the right (2) definately looks like he's in a position to kick it. If it was towards the right more, he wouldn't be all tensed up. The kid to the left of him (1) is turning that way, and we can vaguely see his eyes turned that way.

The pudgy kid on the left (5) is definately looking in that general direction.

Kid in the back right-ish (3) is trying to look over the pivoting kid in the red (at the ball).

The two kids in the very back left (7 + 6) are trying to look over the kid in red in the back left (4), but what is the kid they're looking over (4) looking towards? He's slowing down, and looking vaguely up, as if to see over the kid in the front in red (1), which is where the ball is.

jmg823

01-21-2006, 03:17 PM

It seems everyone has pretty valid guesses, but when i looked at it closerer my guess matches Overconfidence's pretty close.

DeltZ

01-21-2006, 03:23 PM

could be here....running out of ideas....actually post before the guy before me...but post didn't work...

very similar to his though...
http://www.aprx21.dsl.pipex.com/Footballedit.jpg

ahh looks like my post didn't break...it's cause there's 3 threads on this....it confuses me :(
followed a for sale link...posted quite...checked back saw it in photochop..not there..post again...look in general and it's there again argh!!

STEvil

01-21-2006, 05:07 PM

there is a couple white pixels just to the left of the fat kids left leg (from his perspective, right of left leg from our perspective).

below kid in red shirt in background anyways..

trakslacker

01-21-2006, 11:18 PM

I'm still going with the area that Vapor found in the first few posts, but due to the reasoning found in the novel I wrote on the first page. Every single person's body posture and position points to an incoming airborne ball, and that spot just fits.

Overconfidence

01-22-2006, 11:48 AM

very similar to his though...

Hmm... valid point... but it looks like the kid on the very right is turning to the right of the picture (Look at his left foot) which would be odd if the ball was directly in front of him (from his perspective).

enzoR

01-22-2006, 04:56 PM

the area deltz circled is where the ball is. The guy in while has just kicked it, and the guy in red is turning around to go after it after it has been kicked. about 1 sec before the picture was taken, the guy in red was going after the guy in white since he had the ball, and after he kicked it the guy in red had to turn around and go after it.

Overconfidence

01-22-2006, 05:13 PM

jmg823

01-22-2006, 07:01 PM

Alright this is makeing me mad trying to figure this out with such crappy resolution.

Well i made a picture containing everyones guesses and my thoughts on some of em, not trying to shoot anyone down, im probably wrong but anywayz.......

OK now actually my guess would be that it was NOT cut out in a circle shape, if i had to truley guess i would say it was cut in a swuare or something. Because the obvious guessers would look for imperfections in circles they think they see.

To me the kid in the far red shirt shouldnt even be in the picture, he shirt is too bright for the rest of the color in the picture and he looks misplaced, also there are 7 people which would make teams uneven. Again a guess coming from someone with very little photoshop experience.

http://webpages.charter.net/rjgreen/my%20eval.JPG

Overconfidence

01-23-2006, 08:02 PM

1. The red shirt guy did NOT head it down, what's the white shirt guy doing then!?

2. It's not on the far left, what's all the action on the right for?

Then again, they could have just got the kids to pose randomly and thrown a ball into the air.

wwwww

01-31-2006, 10:33 PM

http://xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43011&stc=1&d=1138775609

I reckon it was right in front of that dude's face - you can tell they've replaced his face.

Clearly the ball cannot be just floating in mid-air

http://xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43012&stc=1&d=1138776792

wittekakker

02-11-2006, 05:18 AM

I go with Vapor's solution, it's the only one that makes sence to me (been playing soccer for 13 years). The technical explanation from the Trakslacker makes sence to. I would stick with that, and use your two other guess very nearby this. There are a lot of competitors so u can better focus on one point with 3 guesses, then just put 1 guess on 3 different points.

Let us know how well u did, and how far u were from the final result.

Threeme2189

02-11-2006, 12:56 PM

thunderstruck!

02-11-2006, 08:42 PM

So, when do we get to find out the real answer?:slapass:

oxid

02-13-2006, 11:13 AM

the red shirty dude and grey shirty dude look like they were added.
first look at the grass at their feet and compare it to the grass around other kidsies feets. next take a look at shadow placement. guess what kind of weather it is. their shadows don't work. so I guess they were added to mislead us.

edit: with red shirty dood I mean the one in front with the freaky position in his legs.

jmg823

02-13-2006, 05:28 PM

If it was a higher res pic this wouldve been solved no problem the first day. But it is so grainy and low res'd

Vapor

02-27-2006, 06:27 AM

So, when do we get to find out the real answer?:slapass::with:

Frisch

02-28-2006, 03:10 AM

:with:
If moron is with stupid, i most certainly belong in that duo.

C_B

03-23-2006, 01:14 AM

dissolve the mystery ...

Frisch

03-23-2006, 03:29 AM

I'm afraid our brains have been linked and powered up like a dozen of cpu's, overclocked, and at the same time freezed to gain higher intellect, just in order to solve the mystery of the ever so loved ball.

Beaten by a ball

Regards
The ball lover

Breeze

03-23-2006, 04:21 AM