Propane Bottle Info

[Icy]

Hi there i need some help with a propane bottle (http://www.flogas.co.uk/main/protected/catalogue/productdetail.serv?asset_id=66) it has a femail port to connect to this type of regulator. http://www.bedsbbq.co.uk/assets/thumb/1kg-propane-regulator.jpg
im in need some advice on the best way to hook it upto a cap tube so i can use it for purging. I want to use a flashback arrestor as i really dont want to be blown up :explode: So if some one could show me there setup or show me a diagram of the best way to set it up that would help alot. I will also be using this r290 to gas my System when its finished so also any tips on how to connect it to the manifold would be welcome as well :D

Thanks

[Gray Mole]

Those regulators only allonw 47mBar or something like that for flow. For purging that's great and all, but for filling a system it's gonna be a pain.

A 5 bar regulator or so is pretty handy, as it adjusts down to zero pressure and can be really nice to adjust your flame for purging, and back up for charging.

www.bes.co.uk

I got my 4.5bar regulator from them, and they sell the BSP to 1/4" flare adapter you'll need there as well. Just takes some searching on their website, or you can give them a call during the week. You'll have to call the tech line to get the part numbers if you can't find them on the site, but it's all there and the tech guy is helpful as well.

Gray

[Icy]

See the thing is it allready has a regulator valve type thing on it.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41268&stc=1&d=1134850261
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41269&stc=1&d=1134850261

All the other Gas bottles i have had in the past have had the push down type fittings.

Yeah atm im just going to be using it to purge when brazing but eventualy i will make another fitting to attach for when filling the system. I have looked on Bes but there are sooo many different type of fittings i dont know what one lol

[Gray Mole]

yeah that's just the valve to open and close, I wouldn't trust to to regulate pressure at all.

Tell you what, I'll dig out the reciepts if I can find 'em all, and I'll PM you the stock numbers for the regulator and the adapter. I don't think it was more than about 7 or £8 for the reg and adapter. At least then if you wanted to, you can just call 'em and ask for the stuff by number and it's easier. Still £5 for shipping, but if there's a bunch of other stuff you'd need, you can get free shipping over £40 I think.


Gray

[Icy]

nice thanks m8 helps alot. btw the bes site seems to be down atm does not help when trying to find items lol.

Cheers man your help is great!

[Icy]

Also is it ok just use a flaring tool to connect tubes or should i go and spend some cash on a swaging tool?

[yngndrw]

Gray, could you PM me the stock number also please, cheers mate.

[wdrzal]

I going to say this again, I just hope someone dosn't get burnt or killed before you guys stop promoting the Dangerious practice of purging with a flammable gas(propane).

If someone wants to blow there own head off fine, but I wish the mods would not allow this practice to be recommened to others as if it where safe......at least not in the open forum.

these noobs have no idea how to handle pressurized gases not alone flammable ones!!!!!!!!!!!! not alone all the dangers they can't even conteplate.

If you can't afford to buy the equiptment to work safely, maybee you should wait until you can. I sure wouldn't want it on my shoulders that I got some unsuspecting noob hurt or killed by recommending unsafe practices. Walt

[Icy]

lol well that’s the reason why im asking people here who are experienced, or I could just go out there and try for my self and get hurt. NO one is promoting it to me I have made the decision to do it my self. As for Danger when ever I go on operations with the RN with my job im risking getting killed every time i go out for 6 months. All im trying to do here is ask for advice on the best way to do it. I do respect your point of view but i guess by the way you are calling me a noob you dont respect mine, Maby instead of throwing insults a bit of advice in to other methods would be nice.

[Icy]

This is why im asking questions before i jump in the deep end. Also the fact that i want to use a flashback arrestor like i said before. Im not trying to flame and i do agree with you about not promoting dangerous things. But if some one asks for info about something dangerous or even something that might possibly be dangerous a little comment like "Btw this is quite dangerous and you might want to think about another way of doing it" i would class that as good help.

But there is no reason to be rude. As for being able to afford equipment to work safely i could go to a machine shop and get them to make me the hole unit but how many people here would try to make something them self before spending a load of cash? like this (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46213&highlight=propane)

[wdrzal]

Icy I'm not insulting you calling you a noob, you are what you are,its obvious by your questions , everyone is a noob at some point and there is nothing wrong with that. You are doing the right thing and asking questions,the problem I have is what you don't know can get you hurt.And your not being told the full story. So just be sure of my motives before flamming me. No "proffesional " in the hvac/r industry uses flammable purge gases or would recommend it to another.


like I said ,if others want to take risks, thats up to them. but they shouldn't reccommend it to others like purging with a flammable gas is safe.Its only a matter of time till someone gets hurt doing this.

why buy a propane regulator? just buy a nitrogen one. purging with a inert gas is the "approved "method. usually nitrogen since its cheap, but co2 or any other inert gas is ok.

nitrogen is cheap the only extra expense is buying a nitrogen cylinder. Do it the safe way.

[Icy]

yeah one of the reason i wanted to go for propane is this

I purge like kayl does here, works better than nitro because all the oxidation that is in the block allready (oxidised copper) will be gone due to the high temperatures and propane (the oxygen actually burns away with propane, leaving clean copper behind).

Yes as for being new to this i am thats why its helpfull to get constructive coments from people. I was originaly thinking of using nitrogen as my friends have used it quite a bit when drag racing. Thanks for your last reply i will look into nitrogen alot more and will probably use it as a method for purging as its alot safer.

[Icy]

Don’t suppose you know a good supplier of Nitrogen in the UK?

Btw sry for flaming :D

[yngndrw]

wdrzal, so what are your views on using propane as a refrigerant then ?

I dont feel that people are recommending it as a safe method, but are rarther assuming that the people who they are explaining this to already understand the risks, I mean .. If you dont automatically see brazing with a flamable gas inside the pipe as a risk the you shouldnt really be doing anything to do with gasses.

I understand your concern here but as long as the person treats the propane gas properly and with all the respect it requires, then there is no reason why purging with it should be any more hazardous than purging with an inert gas.

At the end of the day, EVERYTHING we do carries a risk if it isnt done carfully .. Even crossing a road for example.

Also, the way you said things there were abit 'heavy handed' and I think you was a bit rude with that post. (#8)

I'm not having a go, and i'm not ignoring what you have to say .. I'm just having a discussion about things here.

[aussie_guy00000]

why buy a propane regulator? just buy a nitrogen one. purging with a inert gas is the "approved "method. usually nitrogen since its cheap, but co2 or any other inert gas is ok.
nitrogen is cheap the only extra expense is buying a nitrogen cylinder. Do it the safe way.

I'll have to agree with this, i checked out my local supplier here in australia (read: everything expensive) and a nitrogen reg and nitrogen bottle rental and filling isn't much at all. I can obviously see the price benefit in using propane seeing as pretty much everyone has a bottle already, but it is up to the individual. But I for one wouldn't be encouraging anyone who is inexperienced to do it, because of the very small, but obvious risks involved. As for propane purging being better then nitrogen, the hundreds of thousand fridgy's all over the world can't be wrong, even if it is better, it doesn't seem to affect the work they do. Peace out :D

[wdrzal]

burninng has nothing to do with "clean copper" all you have to do is displace the oxygen.

propane is heavier than air, say your condensor is full of propane, could be there from severial weeks ago, and the compressor is full of air. all that is needed is the 2 to mix in the flammable range and draw the flame with it and boom. this is only 1 example of the many unexpected things that can happen.

My views to propane as a refrigerent: I think guys should stay away from it especially noobs. it take a while just until you learn how to handle gases under pressure, what connection fits what , and so forth.

Then if you do decide to use it all the "special precautions" need to be completly understood on how to use it safely. that means being able to be sure there is no air in the system, you are using approved electrical starters. and how to prevent a build up of gas if a leak would occur. While the amount in these systems is small, a leak could still start a fire. I don't think guys just learning how to braze and design their first systems should be using a flammable gas. Like anything a lot has to do with your experience and your abilitys.

I think a good rule is if you find yourself having more questions than you have answers for , you need to keep studying and asking until you are comfortable that you can use it safely. never just guess or take a chance, on anything !!!

[skirms_fr]

i m working with that with french bootle 13kg

http://112233445566.free.fr/DCC/raccord%20bouteille%2013kg.jpg

[yngndrw]

Point taken then.

Know anywhere that Dry Nitrogen bottles can be rented / bought / refilled in the UK then along with prices ? Same for the regulators. I found CO2 and Argon regulators at around £30 each, which are used for MIG welding, but I am yet to find anything for Dry Nitrogen.

[Icy]

wont co2 be just as good at nitrogen as long as it removes air from the tubes i think it would be ok? would probably be a bit cheeper i guess.

[wdrzal]

wdrzal, so what are your views on using propane as a refrigerant then ?

I dont feel that people are recommending it as a safe method, but are rarther assuming that the people who they are explaining this to already understand the risks, I mean .. If you dont automatically see brazing with a flamable gas inside the pipe as a risk the you shouldnt really be doing anything to do with gasses.

I understand your concern here but as long as the person treats the propane gas properly and with all the respect it requires, then there is no reason why purging with it should be any more hazardous than purging with an inert gas.

At the end of the day, EVERYTHING we do carries a risk if it isnt done carfully .. Even crossing a road for example.



Also, the way you said things there were abit 'heavy handed' and I think you was a bit rude with that post. (#8)

I'm not having a go, and i'm not ignoring what you have to say .. I'm just having a discussion about things here.


You are trying to debate and rationalize a pratice that I beleive you are unware of all the potential dangers.

As to rude , when it comes to safety I don't give a damm !!!!!!! if my warnings keep one person from getting hurt.

Like I said do what you want, i can't stop anyone, but I believe one shouldn't "instruct" other to do unsafe practices. unless of course you want to asume all libility if someone does get hurt.

the business world doesn't tollarate unsafe pratices, so either teaching them or getting in the habit of using them is just foolish. always work safely "no exceptions"

[wdrzal]

co2 is fine but nitrogen is cheaper ,remember 3/4 of the atmosphere is nitrogen.


co2 and nitrogen regulators are the same and interchangable, just be sure you by one with correct pressure range.

[Icy]

In the end of the day i would rather spend an extra £150-200 if its going to stop me/anyone else around me getting hurt. I do know there is no point cutting corners but some times its also fun to make your own stuff. Thats probably why somany people make there own systems rofl.

[Icy]

nice in that case nitrogen it is. Any idea of a place that sells it in the UK?

[yngndrw]

If this helps: I have found that Nitrogen is used in pubs for the beer pumps, however I dont know if the nitrogen that they use is dry enough.

wdrzal: What size of bottle / amount of nitrogen would you surggest ? Ie: How long would 'x' amount of Nitrogen last if it was being used for purging constantly ?

[wdrzal]

Since you only need to create a small flow for purging almost any will do but if your skills advance to the point you may want to build a cascade someday the regulators on some of the pub co2 tanks don't adjust high enough on the secondary side. I would only consider this if buying a new one. otherwise any co2/nitrogen/argon regulator will work, you may need the corect adapter for the tank you have. you only need a 20 or 40 cu ft bottle. i get a least 40 if your buying one as its not the gas thats expensive but the fill charge. there usualy a min charge plus the cost of the gas.a 40 cf bottle only cost a couple more bucks than a 20 to fill.

[yngndrw]

Ah okay cheers for the help. :)

cascade someday the regulators on some of the pub co2 tanks don't adjust high enough on the secondary side.
I presume that is concerning the use of Nitrogen for pressure testing, or am I getting things mixed up here ?

[Gray Mole]

Well you've raised some quite valid points Walt.

I suppose I forget sometimes that others aren't experienced and that they won't know the procedures and precautions for use with propane, and I really shouldn't be pushing it on ppl.

I suppose there's a few reasons why it's an easier option here in the UK, not the least of which is the 'You don't have an account, we won't deal with you' mentality here, but really the cost of propane as opposed to Nitrogen is one as well.

I use and have used both. I've found that especially in Evaporators (since it's easy to see the result) that propane purging seems to come up with a cleaner end product. Wouldn't know 100% why, but it does.

I've known people to use propane to purge in the industrial sector where I worked in steel manufacture when I was younger, but I'm not sure if that was for any good reason, but it's used here and there.

But you're right, and I'll stop propagating it's use as far as that goes. I know you're only concerned with safety and I respect that :toast:

Gray

[wdrzal]

A tank is aroud 100.00 to buy but you can rent one if your only doing this once and don't want to spend that much,a regulator is anywhere from 40.00 to 100.00 depending on quality.

there are usually a lot of regulators on ebay, Ive bought used ones for as little as 10.00 and new for 25.00. new and used bottles can be had there also.

[yngndrw]

Is that in dollars or pounds ?

[Death909]

I use and have used both. I've found that especially in Evaporators (since it's easy to see the result) that propane purging seems to come up with a cleaner end product. Wouldn't know 100% why, but it does.

Gray

Could it be that at higher temps the oxygen atoms in copper oxide don't have enough energy to dislodge from the copper but they do have enough energy to be stolen by the propane? Thats pretty much what Kayl said, and it makes sense.

I'm definitely going to purge with propane, its cheap and easy to get, $20 AUD for a 25kg cylinder full of it. Nitrogen, I have no idea where to get. I will mostlikely purchase a oxy-accetlyne flash-arrestor, just to be safe.

[wdrzal]

Thank Gray , the problem is we don't know what the experience level is of the person that reads the posts,. it could be someone 14 or 40 I never know ,but that really makes no difference. as many read these post who do not post themselves. I beleive in not comprimising safety at any level. We need to teach safe practices an instill in the guys heads that are just learning how important following them is because not to long from now todays noobs are going to be tomorrows experts passing along this knowledge. Xs will be a better place if we all work safely and pass that on to the next generation of extreme cooling nuts.......

[wdrzal]

I was talking in dollars

[yngndrw]

Hmm, works out a lot cheaper to buy a tank than I was expecting then ..

wdrzal: Is it not a bit unfair to tie 'experience level' to somebody's age ?

But anyway, I think that while I will be using an inert gas for purging, I would very much like to look into using propane as a refrigerant. As it will still be much safer than using it for purging. I think that as long as precausions such as flushing the system out with an inert gas before brazing to it, and pressure testing to make sure that you have no leaks, that this will be just as safe as using any other refrigerant. The main reason for this would mainly be the cost of getting the gas - Nitrogen is still more expencive than propane, and due to the amount wasted through cap. tube adjustments etc, it will all add up. Also, Propane is very easy to get refilled / swapped out, when compared to the 'real' refrigerants, as well as not requiring a 'proper' (Take the use of 'proper' in the loosest of ways) recovery method.

Anyhow, in light of what's been said in this thread regarding safety, what precausions would need to be taken as to using propane as a refrigerant ?

If you would like me to edit this out and take this to PMs so that this does not promote this as a safe method of doing stuff, then just say.

[catkicker]

I'm useing R290(propane to start with my setup once it's checked out and working good I will go to R507A. I had not given purging the system much thought. Good info here. I agree with SAFTEY at all times no exceptions.

[Icy]

yeah i will stick to using r290 for the system's gas but will purge with a different gas most probably nitrogen. I will just have to make extra sure when regassing my system that i get all of it out. :D

[aussie_guy00000]

Could it be that at higher temps the oxygen atoms in copper oxide don't have enough energy to dislodge from the copper but they do have enough energy to be stolen by the propane? Thats pretty much what Kayl said, and it makes sense.

I'm definitely going to purge with propane, its cheap and easy to get, $20 AUD for a 25kg cylinder full of it. Nitrogen, I have no idea where to get. I will mostlikely purchase a oxy-accetlyne flash-arrestor, just to be safe.

I assume you're an aussie since you're quoting AUD, you can get nitrogen at any BOC or a similar welding gas supplier. I think it was about $40 for a month's bottle rental and about $15 for a fill, obviously if you rented it for a year it'd be cheaper, i'm not sure if they actually let you purchase bottles. Dunno what a reg's worth but. Good luck, Cheers