View Full Version : Condensation wont harm anything?
Ub3r-L33ch
11-28-2005, 02:39 PM
Bear with me on this as I'm not very knowledgeable on this stuff or the terms for it, but I have some questions.
I have a friend with a engineering degree who's pretty smart with physics and math and stuff like that. He's told me that by using cooling methods at or below freezing or any temperatures that would cause condensation it wont harm anything because water needs an electrolyte to be conductive, or something like that? Usually water is harmful to electronics because it has salt in it? Since condensation is from air molecules there is no salt in it and there shouldnt be no salt on the computer electronics so it wont harm anything.
Some of that would seem to make sense to me when I see pictures of people with ice crystals all over the motherboard and video cards while its running. I've always heard water is bad for electronics, but if condensation is no big deal why do people bother with insulating stuff if it wont harm anything?
Would appreciate if someone could shed some light on this for me. I'm not the smartest guy so keep it simple and try not to insult my intelligence (or lack there of) :)
johann
11-28-2005, 07:24 PM
Im certainly no expert but I believe that the water picks up ions when in contact with metals which will make it conductive after a short period of time.
sin0822
11-28-2005, 07:26 PM
Im certainly no expert but I believe that the water picks up ions when in contact with metals which will make it conductive after a short period of time.
YEah thats what ive heard too.
eBoy0
11-28-2005, 07:38 PM
I have condensation on my gfx card and it causes squigglies :(
mnewxcv
11-28-2005, 07:45 PM
yep, condensation on my motherboard caused asusprobe to have chinese text.
eBoy0
11-28-2005, 08:01 PM
It may not kill the hardware, i can vouch for this since i had puddles on the pci-e slots and gfx card, but it does cause hardware to work 'diffrently'
If the original claim was entirely true you couldn't drink rain water, which you certainly can.
Ub3r-L33ch
11-29-2005, 10:09 AM
Ok so what about stuff like having ice crystals all over everything on extreme cooling?
Such as this:
http://www.hardwareasylum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=901
SexyMF
11-29-2005, 10:34 AM
Short term benchmark. Yes condensation is strictly non-conductive the moment it forms but it definitely becomes conductive soon enough. I destroyed one graphics card this way.
Also, ice crystals are in a different state to liquid. Which is the inevitable result moments after that system runs out of LN2.
It also comes down to voltage. Frost across a mains wall plug isn't a good idea, I'd hope you would agree. Computers run from extra low voltage rails so they can stand a fair amount of condensation. It's hit and miss game with the miss results being costly. Are prepared to risk it are spend some money on making sure it won't come to that.
I would also suspect that frozen water does not absorb ions to become conductive, or at least far slower than liquid water.
Stewie007
11-29-2005, 02:48 PM
Water will conduct electricity to an extent. Its why you don't want to be in the water near a lightning strike. It WILL electrocute you. It works the same way with circuits. It'll cause a short.
sin0822
11-29-2005, 04:36 PM
Ok so what about stuff like having ice crystals all over everything on extreme cooling?
Such as this:
http://www.hardwareasylum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=901
Kinc doesnt care about the saftey of his Hardware
n00b 0f l337
11-29-2005, 04:51 PM
Wow, yes he does. LN2 is very hard to condensate. When water is frozen its normally not a problem. But afterwords oyu have to get it before its water when you boot up next.
Frozendeath
11-29-2005, 05:36 PM
When dealing with such high frequencies around the cpu socket it does not take much to change resistive values, or capacitive values of the SMD components. Basically condensation of any kind, including ice, can make hardware act strange. artifacts on graphics cards, random reboots or hard locks at anytime etc...
Another major issue is corrosion. condensation that does not evaporate quick enough will pool up around components, high frequency electrical signals in water will soon equal weakened traces on PCB's and it can permenantly change resistive values. These things may not kill hardware right away, but in the long run problems will come up.
I killed a 6800gt from corrosive effects eating away at the contacts between the gpu and 1 ram chip, and also killed an IC7-G by arcing across the legs of one of the mosfets near the cpu socket.
I would say condensation is like a ticking time bomb waiting to go off :(
RussC
11-29-2005, 06:05 PM
Yup,
I killed a NF7-S 2.0 with condensation. If you get it, it will die :explode:
RussC
When dealing with such high frequencies around the cpu socket it does not take much to change resistive values, or capacitive values of the SMD components. Basically condensation of any kind, including ice, can make hardware act strange. artifacts on graphics cards, random reboots or hard locks at anytime etc...
Another major issue is corrosion. condensation that does not evaporate quick enough will pool up around components, high frequency electrical signals in water will soon equal weakened traces on PCB's and it can permenantly change resistive values. These things may not kill hardware right away, but in the long run problems will come up.
I killed a 6800gt from corrosive effects eating away at the contacts between the gpu and 1 ram chip, and also killed an IC7-G by arcing across the legs of one of the mosfets near the cpu socket.
I would say condensation is like a ticking time bomb waiting to go off :(
bobbywmatl
11-29-2005, 07:34 PM
Nobody wants to hear a bunch of technical gobbledy gook so I am trying to make this simple but as a result, the explanation loses preciseness and accuracy. In general, however, it is correct. Water is called the universal solvent for a reason. When water comes into contact with another material, it will usually cause ions to form.
If you have "pure" water such as from condensation that has melted, it will eventually cause metal with which it comes into contact to give up electrons. The water now has free charged particles in it. If the water is now subjected to an electric field a current will result.
This can result in shorts and other aberrant behavior.
There are of course exceptions (materials which don’t react with water, etc.) but in general this behavior occurs with great frequency. The rate at which the exchange of electrons and creation of charged particles (ions) occurs can range from extremely fast to very slow.
So, at first, the water may not hurt anything, but given time, it will.
The result is that water on electronic devices may not kill you, but it surely will break your heart.
bobby
Overconfidence
11-29-2005, 07:46 PM
Well, you're not going to have electricity arcing all over the place if there's a little condensation on your components or anything. The electricity is most likely just going to go on it's regular path, why should a tiny bit of water make any difference? Of course, it will eventually, but it's not unheard of to have a small puddle on your video card and nothing bad to show for it.
Gimmpy224
11-29-2005, 09:19 PM
if you want to take the chance and have the funds to do so, go for it! if it were me, id do it with ln2 probably but other than that im insulating the hell out of everything.
enzoR
11-30-2005, 07:15 AM
its exactly what johann said. condensed water is perfectly polar and doesnt split up into ions. however once in contact with metal/dust whatever, its ions can easyly split up and it becomes conductive
Gimmpy224
11-30-2005, 08:02 PM
sooooo putting your comp parts wouldnt work then?
is it possible to avoid condenstaion, via lots about of insulation then? also could u use a water chiller for day to day use? with the right amount ot insulation ovcorse.
RussC
12-09-2005, 11:06 AM
Of course, lots of people do, check the stickies.
RussC
is it possible to avoid condenstaion, via lots about of insulation then? also could u use a water chiller for day to day use? with the right amount ot insulation ovcorse.
PenumbralFigure
12-09-2005, 11:10 AM
is it possible to avoid condenstaion, via lots about of insulation then?
IIRC, condensation prevention is the exact reason phase changers use insulation. You won't need to use insulation on a simple watercooling setup. It doesn't get cool enough to produce external condensation. Maybe when you're using a chiller or TEC.
Of course, this post is completely up for correction.