Well, I have frost.... [Archive] - XtremeSystems Forums

RussC

10-27-2005, 03:32 PM

:toast: :banana: :bounces: :banana2: :bday2: :party:
I can't post pics right now, I'll try this evening. What a pain in the butt this was to get here. The brazing stuff has been kinda dinky, and getting all the stuff needed has been a pain. This project has nickel and dimed me too death also :rolleyes:

Anyway, since my web site is full, Ill have to re-arrange some stuff to get the pics up. Beyond that, what sites are we using to post pics here?

OK,
Here are the pics....
Fist is the Oasis water cooler I picked up from Ebay for $35 w/shipping
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/2407/drinkfountain4pa.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/2562/drinktop3ku.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/8782/drinkside7ym.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/5090/tempcontrol0py.jpg

Next, Stripped the system apart and used a piece of it as my base, I used the torch to braze the bottom piece togerther. then made a bracket to mount the fan...
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/9379/condense17ng.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/8458/condense23tz.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/9606/sidecondens5os.jpg

Next, mount the compressor and hook up some of the copper tubbing...
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/62/frontcompr3og.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/4201/fullshoot7sp.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/5518/frontsys3vu.jpg

This is the container I purchased at Target for $5, this will be the resevior. I'm using some hose barb to MPT3/8 for the water lines. These will get glued in later....
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/8282/lid1nz.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/2671/restop2xl.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/8484/sidesys3gy.jpg

Here it is all brazed up and charged with R134a and cooling nicely...
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/73/10deg0oh.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/5798/backsystem5nr.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/5384/5deg8mn.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/9548/15deg5pk.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/7268/topfrosty9xo.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/1176/frontfrosty2dc.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/1531/coilfrosty5qm.jpg

And stopped at -23C.
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/4586/23deg6br.jpg

I believe there is still an issue as my pressures are a little too low. I tried filling some more, but that didn't seem to help much. I believe I may have a restriction..that would not supprise me. If thats the case, I will redo the condensor and add a larger filter/drier. After that, it's pump, insulation and hookup to the head, so more later....

Thanks,
RussC

k0nsl

10-27-2005, 03:36 PM

You can use putfile.com and imageshack.com for storing images, etc.

-k0nsl

RussC

10-29-2005, 12:26 AM

Adjusted the refrigerant for no load a little, got -30c I wasn't aware that R134a would go that low. After ~20 minutes, it went down to -28c.
http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/5966/30c4pw.jpg
http://img496.imageshack.us/img496/8172/bigfrost9zg.jpg

Started the resevor insulation..
http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/7882/resivoir6hy.jpg
http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/8981/resevor15bn.jpg

Tomorrow is the wiring(fan control, temp control and power switch) and water lines with the cpu head. Plus more insulation.

RussC

Marvin

10-29-2005, 06:27 PM

looks great, but why didnt you put the condenser in the right position ?
congrats..

RussC

10-29-2005, 08:21 PM

Well,
I blew it, really :fact:
I didn't know it shouldv'e gone in 90deg rotated. Im going with it the way it is, since it's already there. So far I'm not sure if it changes the cooling :confused:

RussC

looks great, but why didnt you put the condenser in the right position ?
congrats..

RussC

10-29-2005, 08:54 PM

Got the rig wired up....I did a couple of things.

Pics first:
http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/85/wiring5vv.jpg
http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/1921/wiring22bd.jpg
http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/8350/wiring37gz.jpg

I used the thermostat that came with the water fountain and wired it in with the switch(DTDP). As I see it, I like the idea of not having to run the chiller full tilt all the time. So I can use this thermostat to have the coolant be in the range of the thermostat. That way I can save money on power and run it 24/7.

http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/5963/wiring48fi.jpg
http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/9029/wiring58wc.jpg
http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/5716/finishwiring2fg.jpg
http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/4386/wiringdone7gp.jpg

Also, I used a light dimmer switch to control fan speed. I though this will save on my ears as well as a little power. I looked at the fan speed controllers, but felt I didn't need that as this fan is only 18W. There was also a in-line fuse. But I removed it as I had no fuses big enough. I'll have to get some 10A tomorrow and install it again.

And lastly, I found an issue with fan speed control. The compressor wont turn on if the fan load is not there also. Oppps, so when the unit is turned on, the fan speed has to be up almost on high for the compressor to start. Then it can be turned down if I want to.

RussC

zightx

10-31-2005, 12:21 PM

Nice. :)

cronic

11-03-2005, 03:53 PM

looks great i like the idea of a temp control. i think i will have to intergrate one on the chiller i am worjking on. looks great

HelloIDistance

11-03-2005, 04:35 PM

Nice system, I like the temperature control idea! And if you don't mind me asking how much altogether did that cost?

RussC

11-03-2005, 05:58 PM

For the most part, cheap, as water chillers go, although the thing is nickel and diming me to death now. Id say I got ~$250 into it, and that includes the new pump I just got(185ghp) from Home Depot. The key was the fountain for $35. Also includes the torch(oxy/MAPP), brazing rods and the like.

RussC

Nice system, I like the temperature control idea! And if you don't mind me asking how much altogether did that cost?

jinu117

11-03-2005, 08:25 PM

The way you have condenser is not the best way. It might show uneven load condition and fluctuating temperature. What you are trying to do with above configuration is that as gas gets colder and turns into liquid, you will have many vertical hoops that liquid will have to work against gravity... which isn't too good. Thankfully high discharge pressure moves them along usually but it will just not work as good as otherwise. Another thing to consider is how would oil travel through condenser with such configuration.

RussC

11-03-2005, 10:41 PM

right,
I know about the condenser position. I believe it wont hurt the system badly? As far as the oil, I thought that the refrigerant carries the oil, whether in a gas or liquid state? As you say, under high pressure, it should be able to clean out the condensor enough that refrigerant/oil will be carried throughout the system adequately.

Im going forward with the system as is and do some load testing. If I'm not satisfied with the cooling, then I'll tear the system down and re-do the condenser :)

RussC

The way you have condenser is not the best way. It might show uneven load condition and fluctuating temperature. What you are trying to do with above configuration is that as gas gets colder and turns into liquid, you will have many vertical hoops that liquid will have to work against gravity... which isn't too good. Thankfully high discharge pressure moves them along usually but it will just not work as good as otherwise. Another thing to consider is how would oil travel through condenser with such configuration.

RussC

11-07-2005, 10:15 PM

OK,
Made the evap changes, rotated it 90deg so it has gravity flow down: pics
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/266/fullsysevap904og.jpg
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/3498/sysevap900qi.jpg

Also, I added another flare fitting to the suction side of compressor, now its completely servicable, huuuu removable:
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/9589/fullsysevap9016oa.jpg

And, my vacum pump, crude and old, but still works pretty well. Pumping the system down tonight, see if it holds vac, then fill and test tomorrow....
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/4489/vacpump6dr.jpg

RussC

wdrzal

11-07-2005, 11:13 PM

I can't see from pic's do you have the liquid line to the filter/capillary comming out of the BOTTOM of the condensor. The high side line from compressor should go to the top of the condensor.

Looking Great, keep up the good work.

Gray Mole

11-08-2005, 03:08 AM

You're never gonna get the best results from that system if you don't move the condensor. You're refrigerant flow is gonna be pants, and oil can gather in the lines of it.

I'ts gotta be top to bottom. If it were a coil desuperheater and it was sideways it'd be different, cos they're not so tall, but that's just no good.

It'll take you an hour tops to put the condensor right, I strongly recommend it. You'll have to rework the shroud and fan mount, but I'm sure it's not that big a deal.

Otherwise, nice work on 134a mate :)

I'm working on a chiller for a friend of mine at the moment. I hope my results are as good as yours.

Gray

RussC

11-08-2005, 11:57 AM

Sorry,
The pictures aren't that great, and mis-leading. Yes, the high side from the compressor goes to the top of the condenser. The condenser coils now run from top to bottom horizontaly. The bottom of the condenser(the liquid side) runs to the top of the system into the filter/drier. I added 1/4" copper tube to the high side so the length of the suction/liquid sides are equal. Im runing 6' of 0.031 cap tube. I may have to adjust this.

The system holds vac fine. Will charge later and test. I'll post more pics later that give a btter view of the condenser set up.

RussC

You're never gonna get the best results from that system if you don't move the condensor. You're refrigerant flow is gonna be pants, and oil can gather in the lines of it.

I'ts gotta be top to bottom. If it were a coil desuperheater and it was sideways it'd be different, cos they're not so tall, but that's just no good.

It'll take you an hour tops to put the condensor right, I strongly recommend it. You'll have to rework the shroud and fan mount, but I'm sure it's not that big a deal.

Otherwise, nice work on 134a mate :)

I'm working on a chiller for a friend of mine at the moment. I hope my results are as good as yours.

Gray

RussC

11-08-2005, 02:34 PM

OK,
Heres the pic of the condenser. The high side leaves the compressor, goes into the top of the condenser, exits at the bottom. Then it wraps up and into a coil for equalization, into the filter/drier then cap tube into the resivoir.
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/530/consenssetup2kq.jpg

Heres a pic of the system with no-load running..
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2376/sysruning5wj.jpg

And after 15mins, -24degC...
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/8935/sys24deg3uj.jpg

The temp was still dropping by ~0.1degC per minute. Not sure where it've stopped...But still not bad for a R134a system. Not sure how low a R134a system will go absolute?

RussC

RussC

11-09-2005, 08:51 PM

OK,
I got the loadtester made. Used 2 50W resistors screwed to a 250W 92ohm power resister. Bought these at the surplus store for $9 total. Drilled and screwed the 2 50W to the large 250W unit...
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/473/loadtester7hb.jpg
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/738/loadtester19yj.jpg

I had to polish the top alot to get good contact with the cpu block. I tried with just the surface the 250W came with but it would overheat badly. It obviously had a very bad thermal conductivity(degC/watt). After some 1000grit, then 1200grit and finally some buffer wheel action, it was nice and smooth. Also used thermal compond on the resistors and cpu block.

System running..
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9905/fullsys1810vv.jpg

So plugged in and set the resitance to equal 80W. With the ~35W of pump in the resivior, ~105W total. Heres the temp after 45 minutes..
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/5974/18temp8op.jpg
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1149/fullsys182fg.jpg

Im really happy with the system so far...-18c with a 105W load. And I think Im under charged. Again, not bad for a R134a system :banana: :woot: :clap: :toast: :toast2:

Ill be uping the load in a day or so to see what it can do @150W external.

RussC

RussC

11-14-2005, 11:27 PM

Well, after the meldown, decided on a Swifttech 6002. Not sure the pump I have is enough, but I thought it was the best compromise for simplicity, efficiency and cost.

I also insulated the load tester a bit. Its 94ohm, so with the pump and the voltage, total load is 180W.
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/4141/swifttecfrost7bu.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/7315/newhead164fi.jpg

A pic of the full sys loaded @ 180W and R134a
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/5930/fullsys180w3el.th.jpg (http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fullsys180w3el.jpg)

I had some Freeze12 lieing around, so I thought Id see if it was any better. Im too cheap to buy a can tap, or the $16 3/16 flare pierce valve. I had a R12 can tap lying around, so I put it to use, nice and getto...
<a href="http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gettocantap11vr.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1044/gettocantap11vr.th.jpg" border="0" /></a>
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1673/gettocantap1gg.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9224/gettocantap29oq.jpg

So, the temps so far have been pretty good for the system Ive built. But....here are the pressures for R134a. I get the best temps with 134, not the Freeze12..I don't think Im supprised there.
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9238/guagesr134a5wc.th.jpg (http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guagesr134a5wc.jpg)

RussC

gkiing

11-16-2005, 05:29 PM

Those old lab-style vacuum pumps work great.. most will pull down to 15 microns or less (with an oil change). If you can't get proper refrigerant other than r134a aka "air in a can" you should just use bbq propane, it works really well.

SexyMF

11-16-2005, 10:20 PM

Don't overestimate that pump heatload. It does use most of it's energy to shift water. Only a small portion is heat.

RussC

11-16-2005, 10:21 PM

Yup,
Thats what I just did a couple hours ago. When to the rental supply and filled my LP tank. Purchased a LP tank to 1/4 MPT adapter and a 1/4 MFL fitting at Orchard. Filled nicely :confused: As a point, Porpane is filled on the low side as gas, right? Not on the high side as liquid, like the R40xa?

It would appear that Im getting ~6C cooler with BBQ propane over R134a. Ill need to do some more testing to make sure, as my load is not correct. Post some pics later. I need to get a better heat loader though, and a better mounting system for it. Thats my next project tomorrow. The plastic tie wraps are stretching over time and not making good contact with the loader

As a point, what pressures should I be running with propane. So far Im getting 155psi after the condenser, 8psi at compressor.

RussC

Those old lab-style vacuum pumps work great.. most will pull down to 15 microns or less (with an oil change). If you can't get proper refrigerant other than r134a aka "air in a can" you should just use bbq propane, it works really well.

RussC

11-16-2005, 10:24 PM

What? The motor uses electrical energy. This energy is changed to motion. Whats the efficiency of that process? Whats left is heat. My pump is ~40W. I was using 30W as a heat load from it for my calculations. Is that too high?

RussC

Don't overestimate that pump heatload. It does use most of it's energy to shift water. Only a small portion is heat.

SexyMF

11-16-2005, 10:25 PM

Using propane for torches (not the butane/propane mix that is LPG) I run 15/200psi.

RussC

11-16-2005, 10:44 PM

What length cap tube for Propane. Im running 58" of 0.031". Should I use more or less?

Thanks,
RussC

Using propane for torches (not the butane/propane mix that is LPG) I run 15/200psi.

RussC

11-22-2005, 05:27 PM

Well, I don't have pics, but I've torn the system apart.....why.......

I have a system leak. The leak is very minor, so I didn't find it right away. With R134a, the system pressure was ~50psi static. At that pressure, it wouldn't leak. With porpane and static pressures of 95psi, it would leak out at ~1.5psi/hr untill it reached ~60psi.

I believe it was on the suction side, as the system ran ~15hrs fine with no capacity loss under load. But, leave it set, pressure dropped. That tells me when it's running, and the suction side pressure is very low, no leak. But, in static conditions, low side pressure is much higher, and leak.

Anyway, I think I found the bad braze. I wanted to redo the system anyway with a desuperheater, so I have that going right now. I'll make the entire low side 5/16" tube, like the original water fountain. Plus, a new filter/drier and use dentured alcy instead of water in the resivor. I'll get some initial pics up tomorrow.

RussC

SexyMF

11-22-2005, 10:42 PM

Harking back to the heat load from your pump. You are saying 30/40 (75%) of the energy used to power the pump is wasted i.e. the pump is only 25% efficient. Give the brand some more credit!

As for your pressure drops perhaps you are not taking into account the compressor and refrigerant cooling down.

RussC

11-23-2005, 11:04 AM

OK,
Im not sure what the efficiency of a electric motor is? If I have some spare time over the holidays, I'll take a look.

On the leak, I believe there is a leak. If you look at the PT charts, Propane at 21c is 127psi, R134a is 69psi. Its nearly double. At room temp, the same weight charge is ~2x the pressure. So, I monitored it for 2 days. After ~3hrs the charge stabilized ~18c at 93psi. After 24hrs, it was 62psi. Thats a leak.

RussC

Harking back to the heat load from your pump. You are saying 30/40 (75%) of the energy used to power the pump is wasted i.e. the pump is only 25% efficient. Give the brand some more credit!

As for your pressure drops perhaps you are not taking into account the compressor and refrigerant cooling down.

SexyMF

11-23-2005, 05:30 PM

I concur.

RussC

11-27-2005, 12:19 PM

OK,
Tore system apart. cut new base, just screwed old base to wood pcs. Im going to 5/16" copper for the evap. Im not going to have a superheater after the evap. I figured I'll put the extra coils in the evap for more cooling.
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5385/516evap1if.jpg

the system redo will have this large desuperheater. I'll put a fan on it also, but thats later
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9255/newlayout7og.jpg

And the entire layout with larger drier.
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4484/drier1dv.jpg

I hope to have it all brazed up pretty quick. Will be using 72" of 0.031cap instead of the 58" I had.

RussC

SexyMF

11-28-2005, 01:19 AM

I use 2 coils of 5/16". Also, good upgrade to the filter/dryer :)

RussC

11-28-2005, 09:17 PM

OK,
Got the system brazed. Here is the layout
http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/7412/prebraze9ma.jpg

Next, as I get better at brazing, captube splice...sweet :banana:
http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/3807/captube3jy.jpg

Im also getting the feel for compression fittings. Ive got a good feel for how much to tighten. They didn't need any adjustment, and the system has held vac for 6hrs now. Let it go overnight, then fill and test in the morning
http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/3129/fullsysfront3lx.jpg
http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/764/fullsysback5zg.jpg

RussC

SexyMF

12-02-2005, 02:43 AM

I stripped my board back down to it's original state. I have finished my testing. I've learned heaps and are now tracking down a Danfoss NL11F compressor because mine is just to loud. Also, the motherboard is difficult to insulate (not much clear area around the socket). I may jump up to direct-die cooling using a chilly1 block.

I'm keen to see how your new setup goes.

Malachia

12-04-2005, 04:05 PM

can i ask you what liquid you used to go under 0C? thx!

RussC

12-04-2005, 05:59 PM

anti-freeze and water. 50/50 split is good for -35c. 75/25 is good for -85c.

RussC

can i ask you what liquid you used to go under 0C? thx!

Malachia

12-05-2005, 01:38 AM

what kind of anti-freeze? the one that you use in cars or another kind?

Blaster

12-05-2005, 02:42 AM

anti-freeze and water. 50/50 split is good for -35c. 75/25 is good for -85c.

RussC

wow where u get that antifreeze ?? i can only get glycol here, in which the freezing point is -25ºC, in its pure state :wth:

johann

12-05-2005, 09:25 AM

Some antifreeze is already mixed up with water but I foun that normal undiluted car antifreeze in a 50/50 ratio does about -30c without freezing and 66/33 gives about -40c without freezing.

It does get thick though... Pump needs to be strong at these temps.

Realistically in a average chiller liquid temps are not below -30c so 50/50 works good

RussC

12-05-2005, 10:41 AM

This info is right on the Prestone Antifreeze 1 gallon container. Thats were I got it. I wouldn't try to run a 75/25 mix at -85c, it would be so thick, it probably wouldn't pump much, unless you have a STOUT pump.

Johann is right, it does thicken, But wont freeze. Your better off using alcohol/antifreeze mix. But, you need a air tight resevoir to hold the alcy from evaporating out.

RussC

wow where u get that antifreeze ?? i can only get glycol here, in which the freezing point is -25ºC, in its pure state :wth:

Vex

12-18-2005, 01:40 PM

how far u got with the rebuild now?

RussC

12-18-2005, 04:28 PM

Ya,
Its been a while. Im also working other jobs to pay the rent. I have some pics to post tomorrow, but haven't done much. Im completely re-doing the resivoir

RussC

how far u got with the rebuild now?

SexyMF

12-19-2005, 11:15 PM

My mix of about 60/40 started to ice up at -50C.

RussC

12-23-2005, 12:00 AM

Ok,
Got the new pics.

First, I scraped the old resivor and starting a build on another....
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/479/newresparts0sm.jpg
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/5686/newresparts10ym.jpg
The res will be inside this PVC tube. This will be easy to insulate. All will get glued together and the compression fittings will mount the 1/2" ID tube.
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/9080/newevap16jp.jpg
Wrapped 5/16" copper as small as I could get them and fit into the 3" pipe. There will be two sections, one inside the other..
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/6579/newevap1iu.jpg

I still need to braze the bottom together, then install in the pipe, glue it all together then braze into the system and test. Im getting the pump tomorrow, but will not get to work on the system till well after the holidays. I then may have to go to the semi-conductor fab near Sacramento to work on a chiller for the wafer etchers we build. So I may not get back to this project for 2 weeks.

Happy Holidays,
RussC

Vex

12-23-2005, 01:34 AM

looking good so far, that res looks mint..i look forward to seeing it finished :)

happy holidays to you too! :D

[XC] mysticmerlin

01-25-2006, 04:12 AM

Well? I have the same water fountain and am watching this very close to see what you get out of it. I don't know wether to go DD or Chilled and can't wait to see it.

[XC] mysticmerlin

04-15-2006, 08:38 PM

Bump you up. What did you get out of this or did you give up?
I am talking with chilly1 about a DD head now. Still like the idea of the chiller though.:slobber:

epion2985

04-16-2006, 01:57 AM

update? :)

predator500

04-16-2006, 08:31 AM

Looking good cannt wait to see update

Xeon th MG Pony

04-16-2006, 08:59 AM

12-23-2005, 12:00 AM <<< He's probly long since gon working in the feild or life

epion2985

04-16-2006, 05:09 PM

working... :rolleyes:

[XC] mysticmerlin

04-23-2006, 06:46 PM

working...

He said a bad word!! :slapass:

RussC

05-10-2006, 12:07 PM

Nope,
Still here. Ive been very busy with everything else. The chiller is where it sat the last time I updated. I will get around to finish this project, just not sure when....

RussC

epion2985

05-10-2006, 01:22 PM

nooooooooooooooooooooo

...must.. finish.. NOW!!

[XC] mysticmerlin

05-11-2006, 05:32 PM

nooooooooooooooooooooo

...must.. finish.. NOW!!

LOL :clap:

Sume4

05-12-2006, 02:24 AM

Yeah. I want to see too. Though id like to build a chiller myself too.

Jort

05-12-2006, 09:18 AM

LOL is that second copper coil a desuperheater or what?

if yes i am laughing like hell, damn the use of a desuperheater is WAY LOST

edit:

the system redo will have this large desuperheater. I'll put a fan on it also, but thats later

k i was right, please gimme a break, Good fan on that condensor is good enough. desuperheater is USeless in this system.

[XC] mysticmerlin

05-12-2006, 05:29 PM

LOL is that second copper coil a desuperheater or what?

if yes i am laughing like hell, damn the use of a desuperheater is WAY LOST

edit:

k i was right, please gimme a break, Good fan on that condensor is good enough. desuperheater is USeless in this system.

Because ? please explaine.

-aDaM^

05-13-2006, 07:53 PM

Nice job :toast:

{.bLanK} GoD

05-13-2006, 08:56 PM

Because ? please explaine.

This (http://xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=96486) :fact: may help explain it for you.

Lookin good RussC, Keep up the good work.

Roxter

05-17-2006, 06:19 PM

great job man, i'm building a chiller too. my friends dad is an HVAC guy so he has all the tools i could possibly need.

[XC] mysticmerlin

05-23-2006, 12:12 PM

Ummm, Hello? Is this thing on????

[XC] mysticmerlin

06-12-2006, 04:36 AM

Ummm, Hello? Is this thing on????

No really is any one here ?
Did you do anymore or abandoned the project?

SexyMF

06-12-2006, 11:00 PM

Use a private message to ask the question.

[XC] mysticmerlin

06-12-2006, 11:52 PM

Use a private message to ask the question.

Wow thanks for the help on that. :slap:

SexyMF

06-13-2006, 12:41 AM

Stow your sarcasm, you have more posts in this thread than the author.

Why are you busting gut to see this project out?

littleowl

06-13-2006, 01:43 AM

Not to interrupt but I was hoping to see this done as well!! I learn more when I see the end results!! Maybe that is the same way with mystic

[XC] mysticmerlin

06-13-2006, 01:43 AM

Well? I have the same water fountain and am watching this very close to see what you get out of it. I don't know wether to go DD or Chilled and can't wait to see it.

Read the whole thread not just ride me. What is the point of this conversation anyway? Did I pi$$ in your cherios this morning or what?

SexyMF

06-13-2006, 12:31 PM

So rig up your compressor on a board and see how it goes. Then you can build a fancy case and temperature control.

So what was the response from the PM then?

[XC] mysticmerlin

06-13-2006, 12:51 PM

So rig up your compressor on a board and see how it goes. Then you can build a fancy case and temperature control.

So what was the response from the PM then?

"RussC Last Activity: 05-10-2006 03:11 PM "

But again why is this your pet peave? What did I do to you? Do you know me in another life or what?
I am "doing mine" check out the chilling section of this forum if you can get off my but that long. I am sure you will find something nice to say about it.:stick:
I am done with this, have a nice day and I hope you get a life soon.:exclaim:

RussC

08-30-2006, 10:56 PM

Well,
Im starting this back up again. Im dumping the PCV resivoir and am going with the H-50 Evap. Then getting a small resivoir along with it.

I saw the conversation about the de-super heater. That will eventually change into a real cooler from a secound stage water cooler unit. ~1/8W compressor. I plan to run a more exotic referigerant to the pressures should be acceaptable.

Ill have more updates and pics in ~week, still waiting on the H-50 HX. I also have a Pony Pump. It has a stainless steel head, so temps shouldn't matter, and its big enough.

RussC

n00b 0f l337

08-30-2006, 11:15 PM

H-50's are wonderful man, and built to handle about 1/2 ton, plus there solid copper.

[XC] mysticmerlin

09-04-2006, 04:18 AM

Hope it is ok with you SmF that is post in here again.
I build a quickie chiller around one of those HX's and it did -17c in the wide open no ins on it. Can't wait to see what you get out of it.

RussC

10-03-2006, 06:40 PM

Well,
I went crazy and pulled out my credit card over at Johnstone Supply......

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/3935/guageallwc1.jpg

Im going high end now. The system will have the built in guages, a R22 TEV and some real HX's.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7771/waterexchsg6.jpg

These are 1ton water condensors. But Ill be using them to cool water. The guys over at the DD forum use them in multi-stage systems for condensors. I have 2, so Ill run them in parallel from the TEV.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8379/tevr22ac5.jpg

This is a Parker TEV, R22, -40C unit. Ill be using R22A to start.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/9947/newcondns1qx3.jpg
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7177/newcondnsrk7.jpg

I also got my CC out on Ebay, picked these up for $15 each(got two). That is the deal of the century. There 8"x10"x2". Thell be for the main compressor stage and my second stage.

My second stage will be the inline HX-50(no pic yet). That will cool the refrigerant from the main stage condensor outlet. It just a small 1/8hp water cooler compressor that will run R-134a. That should lower the refrigerant temps by about 10-15C. I figure with R22A, I should get this chiller to ~-45C no load easy.

I also ordered up a leak detector and can tap off of Ebay. Should arrive pretty quick. I looking to get this stuff in the next week and start the build in ~6 or 7 days.

RussC

flesheatinvirus

10-04-2006, 04:00 PM

Looks like my shop floor at work.

BigBen2k

10-04-2006, 04:04 PM

Ah! so you're the one I've been bidding against! ;)

I picked up four of those H-50 heat exchangers myself.

Nice work!

SexyMF

10-05-2006, 12:01 AM

Hope it is ok with you SmF that is post in here again.

I muse that you hold such a beef so many months later. That speaks a lot more about you than me.

But your prayers are answered and RussC is locked and loaded!

Darkenreaper57

10-06-2006, 12:09 AM

Nice work with the setup.

RussC

05-14-2011, 01:51 PM

Well,
I havent worked on this in nearly half a decade. But the Bulldozer release has sparked my need for cooler temps.

So, Im going to use a vapor line heat exchanger for the system, as it may give some better temps. Got all the stuff back out. Im going to make a simple dirty resivior again just to get it up and running in the next month....

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5067/066ww.jpg

New suction line heat exchanger
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7044/069om.jpg

Whole bench ready for work.
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5067/066ww.jpg
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/2105/070i.jpg

Im a sucker for cheap condensing units off Ebay...got both of these for under $100..
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/3372/068ve.jpg
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4330/067vd.jpg

More later in the week..

RussC

RussC

05-18-2011, 10:52 PM

Makin progress....
fabed up some pcs for heat exchanger...
http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/9097/1002003f.jpg

Low side gauge mountings...
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/3383/1002002i.jpg

And return back to the compressor..
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/6950/1002004.jpg

Goin to use that .5gal cooler as a quick and dirty resivior. The TVX will hook to in in some fashion, as well as all the tubing, low side return and pump power.

RussC

RussC

05-19-2011, 09:05 PM

Well,
All the non-evap piping is done. This is the competed high side and low side piping. I should get this all brazed up pretty quick.

http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/7195/1002005q.jpg

Next is how to get the TXV into the cooler....

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4199/1002006y.jpg

I essentially have everthing I need, gotta get the coil wound for the evap and mounted to the cooler. Im going 3/8" bulkhead tube fittings on the top of the evap, I believe....but Ill know more when I see how the pump fits in there.

RussC

n00b 0f l337

05-21-2011, 11:26 PM

Might want to look over your plumbing again before you braze, the SLHX should be after the condenser, after the filter drier and after all high side access fittings.

RussC

05-22-2011, 06:36 PM

:eek: Too late, already brazed it all in. Why?

Might want to look over your plumbing again before you braze, the SLHX should be after the condenser, after the filter drier and after all high side access fittings.

Anyway, more pics of it all put together and brazed....
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/6808/1002007q.jpg

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/8207/1002008b.jpg

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/9674/1002009.jpg

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/79/1002010.jpg

http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/6420/1002011n.jpg

I need a differnt pump than I had. Needs to be smaller to fit in the cooler. Ordered that today. Havent decided what size tubing for the evap yet, more later.

RussC

n00b 0f l337

05-22-2011, 07:37 PM

Because as is, you are adding huge amounts of heat to the compressor, then; you are warming up the refrigerant in the condenser if it actually gets cold enough.
You have to move that.

RussC

05-22-2011, 11:29 PM

Because as is, you are adding huge amounts of heat to the compressor,

Umm, Im not getting where the heat is comming from?

then; you are warming up the refrigerant in the condenser if it actually gets cold enough.
You have to move that.

Ok, this I think i understand. This would only be under no load conditions. Would this really be an issue with a TVX though? In theory the TVX shouldnt let that much unused refrigerant into the suction line, or am I off in my thinking?

Thanks,
RussC

n00b 0f l337

05-22-2011, 11:32 PM

From the hot discharge line of the compressor. Your going to add that heat right back into it.
As for the TXV, it can't be setup like that, you want to run it's sensing bulb to BEFORE the condenser.

Replumb it.

RussC

05-23-2011, 08:40 AM

Ok, I understand the issue, the heat is xfered in both directions, but insn't the major thrust of this suction side heater to keep un-used refrigerant from entering the compressor?

Im going to put the TVX in the normal spot, the last device in the high side just before the evap. My TVX also has the pressure sensing port, so it needs a port to that input after the bulb in the suction line. I guess I need to make a diagram that helps ferret this out.

Thanks,
RussC

From the hot discharge line of the compressor. Your going to add that heat right back into it.
As for the TXV, it can't be setup like that, you want to run it's sensing bulb to BEFORE the condenser.

Replumb it.

wdrzal

05-28-2011, 01:28 PM

In post 82 (2nd pic from last) you have a low side gauge on the high side & a high side gauge on the low side. They need switched.

n00b 0f l337

05-28-2011, 03:43 PM

Good spot Walt, he had it right before though.

RussC

05-28-2011, 06:12 PM

Ya, there swapped, was just in for mock up...thanks for the catch...

Did some work today. Im going to put a sight glass in, but it hasn't come in yet, but Im moving forward anyway. Got the new piping in for the SLHX...

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/7073/1002039r.jpg
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/6442/1002036x.jpg
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/7254/1002037m.jpg

Started the evap section, will try to wind up the evap in the next day or so..

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1093/1002038f.jpg

RussC

wdrzal

05-28-2011, 07:23 PM

Some of the conectors you are using look like they are the type that use compression rings. If they are they will probably leak, and could blow apart if not tight enough,but over tighten and they will leak for sure. I prefer swage joints or flare fititngs,double flaring if you use flares.

RussC

05-29-2011, 12:15 AM

I knew someong would eventually say somthing about the comppression fittings :clap:

Um, Im using Parker double sleave(ferrule and top ring) fittings. 2 mechanical engineers and myself looked at all the data, theres nowhere we could find that says a "good" compression double ferrule seal tightened properly is any less of a seal than a flare. Its a metal to metal seal that holds as as well as any metal to metal seal. In fact, looking at it seal characteristics, its a larger metal seal area than a flare or VCR fittings we use. Its pressure holding is as good as the burst pressure of the pipe. We use them on vacum and pressure seals on our plasma etchers that pump down to 10e-9 Torr and pressurize to 300psi. They also pass our helium leak checking with an RGA all the way down to 10e-10 leak rate. :up:

The cheapo ones that you buy at Orchard supply arent nearly as good as the Parker or Swagelok units. I wouldn't use those.

Now with all that said, well see if they leak. I have absolutely no worries of them blowing apart. Again, all the data from Parker and Swagelok say they seal as well as the burst pressure of the piping used.

RussC

Some of the conectors you are using look like they are the type that use compression rings. If they are they will probably leak, and could blow apart if not tight enough,but over tighten and they will leak for sure. I prefer swage joints or flare fititngs,double flaring if you use flares.

wdrzal

05-29-2011, 12:10 PM

n00b 0f l337

05-29-2011, 05:45 PM

I just don't see why you didn't braze them up.

RussC

05-30-2011, 11:15 PM

I've seen the double ring compression fittings from parker,but only in stainless steel for stainless steel tube. Never seen them in brass for copper tube. Those are a little pricey and I see other brazed swage joints so I'm not sure why you even used them?

Most people just buy the standard compresion fittings from home depot or any hardware store.

Let us know how they perform,both during the intial leak test and if they hold up over time. Vibration is a big concern for me.

There vibration rating is the same as flare. If you have concerns with that, then just like flares, use some Locktight. Also, compression tube fittings are used in automotive applications, these chiller aren't nearly as bad as a car for vibration.

I just don't see why you didn't braze them up.

Well, I have, ~6 times on this rig alone. Id like to have the system more modular, since I want to re-use this stuff for other builds, especially the compressor. I may want to pop this 1/5hp unit out for that 1/2hp on the bench. These conn's would make it alot easier.

Anyway, made more progress...Ill have more pics tomorrow.

RussC

RussC

05-31-2011, 04:50 PM

Well, its all together....Got it all cinched up, tightened, evap made...
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/6450/1002040q.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2709/1002041j.jpg
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/5569/1002042g.jpg
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9573/1002043m.jpg
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/6659/1002044c.jpg

An then like always, disaster strikes...
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6287/1002046z.jpg
As I was tightening the flare, it twisted the evap inlet and kinked it but good..Mother FU%^er, Son of a Bit^&. See why I like the modularity of the fittings. Now I dont' have to un-braze and then re-braze on system. I can pull it off to do it. And its really too bad, its holding great vacum :mad:

More later...:upset:

RussC

n00b 0f l337

06-02-2011, 01:38 PM

Looks like an easy fix, make sure to put the TXV bulb after the SLHX.

RussC

06-04-2011, 12:26 PM

Looks like an easy fix, make sure to put the TXV bulb after the SLHX.

Ok, not sure why, but sure.

But, on too next disaster....off all the things to leak, the NPT fitting for the low side gauge will not seal, now I stripped it :p: trying to tighten it to seal. Oh well, I believe Ive ruined the threads on the gauge.

So my question is, do you use some sort of sealer so you only get these tight enough to get in the right position ie you can see the gauge face, and the sealer does the rest? If so, suggestions on a thread sealer?

I see theres a thread sealer on my manifold, I would guess thats what they do.

RussC

wdrzal

06-04-2011, 01:15 PM

RussC

06-04-2011, 03:42 PM

You can use teflon tape thread sealer ,but be carful to start it back 2 treads so it doest get cut off and sucked into system. Also you need to wind it closkwise if your looking at the hole in the bottom of the gage. About 2 or 3 turns. Or pipe dope for gases.

You should tighten the gauge into the fitting first,then face it forwards and braze. No problem. ;)

I avoid threaded connections when possible.........buy gauges with flare fittings.

Ok, but the whole idea is to have a removable gauge in case it fails and needs to be replaced. Again, they have some sealant on my manifold, I guess its one of the LockTight sealants Im guessing.

In looking at this further, since the the fitting and the gauge threads are hosed, I put some LockTight sealant on it and letting it setup overnight. If that doesn't hold, I'll redo, clean it all up and JB Weld it in. The that doesn't work then I'll un-braze the NPT fitting off and start from scratch with a new fitting and gauge.

RussC

wdrzal

06-04-2011, 08:28 PM

Ok, but the whole idea is to have a removable gauge in case it fails and needs to be replaced.

RussC

Right........you just loosen the flare nut,no sealer needed.....plus you can lock it down in any direction........plus you don't have to braze close to the gauge. Especially if you have a plastic cased one.

RussC

06-05-2011, 01:57 PM

Ya, next ones I get will be flare.

Right........you just loosen the flare nut,no sealer needed.....plus you can lock it down in any direction........plus you don't have to braze close to the gauge. Especially if you have a plastic cased one.

But, the sealant didn't hold. So I soldered it...
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/5874/1002048d.jpg

That held real good. So system is tight, will charge it up later and see what temp it'll make.

RussC

RussC

06-05-2011, 05:36 PM

I have Frost....again....
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6589/1002049nw.jpg

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/2770/1002050.jpg
This was my almost max temp...I can probably do better, but I'll do load testing first...
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/7171/1002053j.jpg
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1513/1002055e.jpg
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/1203/1002056.jpg
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2706/1002057r.jpg

The last pic is the best stable temp I can get so far.

To answer about the compression fittings, they work fantastic. I had the evap in and out this morning as seems to always be the case the outlet TVX flare had a really minor leak. All fixed now and went back in real easy. Also, the 5/16to1/4 compression leaked on the 5/16 side. It seems I had to tighten it 1-3/4 turns to make it seal. That copper tube on the compressor is really bad as I think its had too many heat cycles. The rest were good first shot with 1-1-1/4 turns to tighten.

I have the water pump I need on order, as well as the sight glass. Will get those in late in the week.

RussC

n00b 0f l337

06-05-2011, 05:44 PM

Make sure to insulate, or at least insulate the TXV bulb before tuning. Not sure about how you mounted it though, but if it works, it works.

RussC

06-13-2011, 08:42 AM

Make sure to insulate, or at least insulate the TXV bulb before tuning. Not sure about how you mounted it though, but if it works, it works.

Bulb is mounted with plain old hose clamp. Will be insulating the whole thing when its more complete.

RussC

wdrzal

06-14-2011, 11:43 PM

The system will pick up a substantial load if uninsulated,thus the performance will suffer. Insulate before any superheat adjustment on the TVX.

teyber

06-22-2011, 08:31 AM