Electrolux R18TN compressor wiring.

[Tonic]

Konihiwa :)

I bought some weeks ago this compressor on junkyard and it doesn't have any electricity devices, that's my problem.

The informations are motor electricity type - CSR, brand and model name - Electrolux R18TN and HMBP/HST parameters.

There is photo :

http://teampuss.com/tonic/cascade_mk1/compressors/electrolux1.jpg

The question is - what values of start and run capacitors should be suitable for my compressor? Do you have any ideas?

Greetings
Tonic

[Unknown_road]

start cap: 47-56 uF 330Volt
Run cap: 16uF 400Volt.

from: http://www.cubigel.com/java/X?cgi=cubigel.compressors.ShowDataSheet&climate=43&refrig=R22&ccool=F&id=R18TN_T@061@U@F@CSR&tcond=55&productcode=R18TN&POWER_UNITS_STR=W&refrig=REFRIG_TODAS&TEMP_UNITS_STR=%B0C&tsobcal=27&imgFileName=top_compressorsAll.jpg&climate=CLIMA_TODAS&partug=0&cond=CECOMAF&tgasasp=32&tevap=5&tsubenf=0&ug=0&isTLiq=&ccool=COOL_TODAS&factor1=0&tfreq=TFREQ_TODAS&seccion=compresoresporcodigo&condtypestandard=1&applic=HMBP&tambient=32&subseccion=datos_ss

[Tonic]

start cap: 47-56 uF 330Volt
Run cap: 16uF 400Volt.

from: http://www.cubigel.com/java/X?cgi=cubigel.compressors.ShowDataSheet&climate=43&refrig=R22&ccool=F&id=R18TN_T@061@U@F@CSR&tcond=55&productcode=R18TN&POWER_UNITS_STR=W&refrig=REFRIG_TODAS&TEMP_UNITS_STR=%B0C&tsobcal=27&imgFileName=top_compressorsAll.jpg&climate=CLIMA_TODAS&partug=0&cond=CECOMAF&tgasasp=32&tevap=5&tsubenf=0&ug=0&isTLiq=&ccool=COOL_TODAS&factor1=0&tfreq=TFREQ_TODAS&seccion=compresoresporcodigo&condtypestandard=1&applic=HMBP&tambient=32&subseccion=datos_ss

Thanks :)

I found 59 uF 330V capacitor, I think this 3uF difference should be acceptable. But what about 16uF 400V,
how higher this capacity and voltage can be? I have 25uF 450/500V capacitor, if I'm not wrong, an capacitor
with higher parameters can be used, but those with lower parameters can't be.

Is relay needed? What a difference should be if I won't use this?

[_HL4E_HalfLife_]

Thanks :)But what about 16uF 400V,
how higher this capacity and voltage can be? I have 25uF 450/500V capacitor, if I'm not wrong, an capacitor
with higher parameters can be used, but those with lower parameters can't be.

Is relay needed? What a difference should be if I won't use this?

Theres a limit to the amount of mf's over or under the rating that u can use, In most cases a motor can handle an extra 5 to 10 mf over its rating.What will happen tho is the compressor will run hotter the more mf u add.When its under its rating the compressor will have a harder time starting if there no start cap and it will draw higher amps. If u can find a 20mf cap that would be ok

[yngndrw]

The voltage for the capacitor is actually the max voltage which the capacitor can handle. This can be infinatly higher than the required value, but must not be lower than the required value.

And as _HL4E_HalfLife_ said for the uF value.

[Tonic]

Oh, so I have to find another run capacitor :)

What relay does?

How it's important to have relay that is suggested by compressor's brand? I'm asking because I
have three compressors with relays that I should use for testing R18TN (I can write there
relays marks if you want, I have no idea if they will be enough).

[_HL4E_HalfLife_]

Oh, so I have to find another run capacitor :)

What relay does?

How it's important to have relay that is suggested by compressor's brand? I'm asking because I
have three compressors with relays that I should use for testing R18TN (I can write there
relays marks if you want, I have no idea if they will be enough).

U should be using a relay that was built for that size compressor. If its not the right one 2 things could happen, If the relay was ment for a smaller compressor during startup the relay will "stick on" keeping the start winding powered and we all know thats bad. If the relay was ment for a larger compressor it may not do anything but hum failing to energize the start winding.

I had a problem like that a while back i ended up looking up the compressor in an HVAC parts book and seeing what relay it needed and thankfully I found one in the shop. :)

[Unknown_road]

as far as I can see the capacitors are used as resistors (a capacitor is a frequency dependent resistor) to protect the windings from too high currents. The higher the capacity the lower the resistance. With DC you can always take higher values but not with AC. With AC you can go higher voltage but not just higher capacity because that will lower its resistance and thus increase the current. Try the capacitor with the nearest rated uF.

[star882]

as far as I can see the capacitors are used as resistors (a capacitor is a frequency dependent resistor) to protect the windings from too high currents. The higher the capacity the lower the resistance. With DC you can always take higher values but not with AC. With AC you can go higher voltage but not just higher capacity because that will lower its resistance and thus increase the current. Try the capacitor with the nearest rated uF.
Actually, for compressors, the capacitors provide a phase shift so the rotor can easily "lock" onto the changing magnetic field. It also provides a smoother magnetic field, resulting in better efficiency and more torque.
Some large compressors (like the ones for A/C) don't need a start capacitor since the stationary load (due to friction) is very low compared to full RPM load, so the run capacitor provides enough torque to start the motor.
BTW, a phase change cooling system I've worked with used a triac driven by a logic signal from the Jessica Simpson micro. The triac switched the start capacitor in and out of the circuit. The idea is to start with the inverter PLL set to 60Hz and the triac on, then turn the triac off after the current decreases to a certain value. To do this, the Jessica Simpson micro sets the multiplexer so the ADC measures the inverter input current. If the compressor will not start for any reason, the inverter will switch off and an error code is displayed on the front panel LCD.

[Tonic]

Ok, I bought run capacitor. There are parameters :


15 uF +/- 5% b

400V~ HSF NT
450V~ HSF QV

450V~ 50Hz
500V~ 180/15


What those voltages means?

I have a relay at another compressor - 5/8HP, 20.4ccm, HBP, CSIR. It's made by Electrica, marks :

MTRP-0030-08
2-283-011

I went to Electrica page (http://www.electrica.it/start_relays.htm) and I found an pdf document :

http://www.electrica.it/file_pdf/electrica_traditional_mtrp.pdf

According to this document, this relay has 3.25A max. pick-up amp and 2.75A min. pick-up amp, was made in
02 year, in 83 week. The terminal configuration is described on page nr. 5

Now, which parameters of relay I have to compare if I want to find an alternative relay?

Thanks for helping ;)

[star882]

What those voltages means?
For capacitors, it's just the maximum voltage the capacitor can handle.
That capacitor will work. It's close enough.

As for the start relay, an alternative for testing is to use a pushbutton. Start with the button pressed and release it as soon as the compressor starts.
I suppose someone could design an electronic circuit to replace the start relay. Of course, there are already special PTC thermistors for this purpose. And not to mention the circuit that Tiffany designed. (Of course, that is way overkill for your use.)

[Tonic]

For capacitors, it's just the maximum voltage the capacitor can handle.
That capacitor will work. It's close enough.


But why there are different voltages? That's what confusses me.


As for the start relay, an alternative for testing is to use a pushbutton. Start with the button pressed and release it as soon as the compressor starts.
I suppose someone could design an electronic circuit to replace the start relay. Of course, there are already special PTC thermistors for this purpose. And not to mention the circuit that Tiffany designed. (Of course, that is way overkill for your use.)

Yeah, too much for electricity amateur.

I was working with it a while ago, but I stucked. On page that Unknown_road gave, an relay have three
connections (from what I have readed). In pdf document (from this link I wrote above) an relay have
two circuits, one is suppossed for start capacitor, which at start gives a lot of voltages for speeding
winding to specified speed. When winding gets specified speed, this circuits is opened. Then, second
relay circuit (which gives voltage from run capacitor) powers winding in order to keep compressor working.

Those are my opinions, I may be wrong.

There are pics. I used wiring scheme from page that Unknown_road gave. Can you check what I should connect
and if those actual connections are correct?


http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/822/wir15dy.th.jpg (http://img436.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wir15dy.jpg)

http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/8779/wir24eb.th.jpg (http://img436.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wir24eb.jpg)

[muciek]

Hello Guys !

I have a used Necchi a9rv . I have found it on junkyard some days ago ;) . But I have a problem ..with start capacitor for that compressor . Do you know what capacitor I need ?

the problem is that it has a smoked cables on the electric box ..so sth must be wrong with capacitor .
Thanks for help

Regards
muciek

[jinu117]

It looks like to me not all 3 terminals are connected on compressor side. One should be start winding one should be running winding if I am not mistaken...

But why there are different voltages? That's what confusses me.



Yeah, too much for electricity amateur.

I was working with it a while ago, but I stucked. On page that Unknown_road gave, an relay have three
connections (from what I have readed). In pdf document (from this link I wrote above) an relay have
two circuits, one is suppossed for start capacitor, which at start gives a lot of voltages for speeding
winding to specified speed. When winding gets specified speed, this circuits is opened. Then, second
relay circuit (which gives voltage from run capacitor) powers winding in order to keep compressor working.

Those are my opinions, I may be wrong.

There are pics. I used wiring scheme from page that Unknown_road gave. Can you check what I should connect
and if those actual connections are correct?


http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/822/wir15dy.th.jpg (http://img436.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wir15dy.jpg)

http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/8779/wir24eb.th.jpg (http://img436.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wir24eb.jpg)

[Tonic]

Yeah, not all terminals are connection, that's why I asked what I should do.

The main problem is relay connections.. I don't know how to read scheme on Electrolux/ACC page and scheme of this MTRB relay.

[Unknown_road]

Can you give a more detailed pic of that relay?

On the top side(as seen on the pic) of the relay aren't their any connections?

Could you also measure resistance between all the metal points.

[Tonic]

There you have :

[jinu117]

Doesn't it look like that over temp relay or over current relay? I thought you had solid state relay there for a second ... time to ask Chilly1 :)

[Unknown_road]

an over current protector is a round thingy which you put against the compressor that will also cut the power when the compressor gets too hot. (works with a bimetal contact)

[jinu117]

NM I found the link to product should have read more carefully... bleh.

[chilly1]

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39277&stc=1


http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39278&stc=1

[Unknown_road]

I think when you connect the 2 "screw" contacts with each other with a simple wire you have the same relais as the diagram on the spec site.

The connection with the "S" marked, put in 1 wire of the start capacitor.

the connection with the "M" is the run capacitor connection.

and put the "red" wire (like on the spec site) on 1 of the screw contacts.

the rest you can see on the spec site I gave you.

[Unknown_road]

Did you try it yet?

[Tonic]

No, I didn't. I only studied those diagrams, your suggestions and draw new scheme which includes this relays. There it's :

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3910/wiring5xs.gif

Today I'm too tired for testing, but I think I will be able to do it in wekend ;)

[chilly1]

OK THe relay in your picture is a Current relay.The Current relay in the pic needs the coil in the down position and it will plug directly on the contacts. The issue with them is that they work on Low Current drop out.. As a motor starts it draws a high current which closes the contacts bringing the start relay into the circuit as the motor comes up to speed the relay drops out opening the circuit. If the relay is sized incorrectly the start circuit will remain energised and burn out the windings.
The Coil is in the up right position because it uses gravity to open the circuit.
When YOu attach an Unknown relay always use an ampmeter on the start Capacitor to make sure it does indeed drop out and has no current flow.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39478&stc=1