So TEC isnt for day to day?

[Gimmpy224]

So using a TEC cooling system isnt for day to day use like in a gaming system, its only used for benchmarking?

[n00b 0f l337]

No.

[Aphex_Tom_9]

You can use a TEC in a day-to-day system if you're careful about it.

[n00b 0f l337]

Don't even have to be careful. Tec's are just fine for day to day. I talked to gimmpy already.

[Aphex_Tom_9]

Don't even have to be careful. Tec's are just fine for day to day. I talked to gimmpy already.
your first post mislead me ;)

[n00b 0f l337]

No prob, wanted to keep it at a simple answer.

[mdzcpa]

TEC cooling can indeed be used for day to day rigs.

However, due care MUST be used. Do not listen to the person above who disregards due care when using TECs.

The hot side of a TEC is hot enough to turn your water block red hot, melt plastic, and start a fire easily. Don't think so? Check this out:

http://www.liquidninjas.com/mdzcpa/forumpics/badtec/burn1.jpg

http://www.liquidninjas.com/mdzcpa/forumpics/badtec/burn2.jpg

http://www.liquidninjas.com/mdzcpa/forumpics/badtec/burn3.jpg

Obviously my brand new XP 2200 and KX7-133R which were top of the line hardware in that day did not survive ordeal. Same goes for the MCW462-UT and other various parts of the cooling system.

Proper use of TEC power supply relays and temp shutdown bios settings is key to safety. Use them, and you can have a great. safe, day to day TEC system. Don't skimp on safety!

[mdzcpa]

Don't even have to be careful. Tec's are just fine for day to day.


With all due respect, this advice sucks and its irresponsible to give it. Any seasoned TEC user knows that safety and due care must be used. Not being careful with TECs is a nice way to burn your house down.

I've been using TECs for years and I still had a bad incindent. A few more minutes and i would have had a fire on my hands. I stepped up my safety precautions and went trouble free for two more years.

Use relays and shutdowns all the time, every time when it comes to daily TEC rigs. To do less is at the users own peril and those that live with them.

[Gimmpy224]

good god that a horrific pic.
Had no idea they were that dangerous, when I do get around to making a TEC system, ill be sure after reading this to take every precaution 0.o.

[Holst]

Ive seen much worse pics than that.
A guy on tekforums literally burned his entre PC by leaving the TEC on with the pump and PC off.
Its like leaving a half bar heater turned on inside your PC.

Back to the original question...

You CAN use TEC every day providing that you take allot of precautions to prevent accidents.

Most common cause of serious damage with TEC is leaving the TEC on with PC or pump off.
On a GPU that dosent need any cool down time to boot the PC you can just start pump and TEC on a relay .. which is pretty safe. You might just have to wait 5 min before playing a game for temps to equalise.
But on a CPU you usually cant post without cooling the CPU first ... then you need a controller to delay the post like on a prommy. Most people dont bother with these.. and this is what causes problems.

The other major factor is other people (wives, girlfriends, children) these people WILL eventually forget to turn the TEC off or on if its on a swich, and kill your PC. I can find you ten threads easily where this has happend. If anybody else EVER uses your PC then you need to make it all automatic.

So you can use it all the time, even a CPU, GPU dual TEC rig if you set it up right. Problem is that very few people bother to do it right.

Insulation should work for ages if you install it properly. You can use a prommy or watercooling 24/7 so a TEC is no different.

I used to run a 226watt TEC on my CPU. But in the end the trouble of turning it on and off plus the expense made me buy a prommy.
The prommy was MUCH MUCH MUCH easyer to install and use.

I am currently planning a TEC return, but this will be for benching/fun only. (unless it works amazingly well)

[n00b 0f l337]

Hmm I've been tecing for years, nothing more than reading a few guides, and always checking if tec's were off until I got into relays. I find that more of comman sence once you've read a guide or two. Careful for me means wearing gloves and triple checking, careful for you may be pushing your ram in from one side first than the other.

[afireinside]

Your idea of careful is whack. Thats paranoia. Being safe means making sure you're not screwed if something goes wrong. Look at MDZCPA. Yes it sucks but it CAN happen. Don't think you can always remember to plug stuff in. People told me I'd forget and I eventually did. Almost roasted my 9500pro and burnt the TEC, block, and cold plate. If that was a CPU TEC I would have had a nice thermal meltdown in my bedroom. So much for common sense eh?

[Holst]

Yep, with something you use every day day in day out you WILL eventually forget something and have a problem.
And even if you dont somebody you live with will do, or just plain wont understand.

I never had a problem with TEC myself, but thats because im pretty paranoid when im using them. This constant worry was what put me off, especially as I often use my PC when drunk or otherwise intoxicated... in that case it has to be super foolproof. Sometimes I cant remember who's house im in ... let alone remeber to turn a TEC on or off.

[n00b 0f l337]

Well I'll correct my statement....
You need to be somewhat careful with tecs....










.....if your intoxicated and you can't remember whos house your in.... ;)

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

if i ever start TECing, i'll be running my powersupply, pump, and fans all from the same 110vac line with ONE switch; that way, regardless of if my compy is on or not, my hardware is safe. also, how badly do TECs impact performance if they're simply turned off when your computer is idle or if you're not at your machine, etc?

[felinusz]

I run a 172W TEC on my video card for day-to-day use.

There's only a few things that I feel you need to keep in mind for a 24/7 peltiered setup:


~ Insulate the card and coldside with both dielectric grease and neoprene (I also use seal string around the waterblock mounts, seal-string is God's gift to the insulation-minded overclocker).

~ Make sure your "radiatorage" is sufficiently beefy to consistantly disperse the heat dump without the waterblock, tubing, or pump getting too hot.

~ Make sure your computer room has good ventilation - all the heat from an efficient TEC setup will destroy room temperatures alarmingly fast if you have poor ventilation.

~ Install a temperature sensor directly behind the GPU core on the rear of the card, to give you an idea of coldside/GPU temperatures. A Sensor with an alarm feature is preferable.

~ Excercise some form of safety with your PSU. A relay, a system whereby the PSU CANNOT be turned on with the machine.

~ Use proper wiring from the PSU to the peltier. Peltier's draw a hue amount of current - you need to use wiring that can handle that without heating up.



All of the above is extremely easy to do properly and safely if you take your time and are careful about things.

[felinusz]

You'll never guess what just happened.

I just killed my WR holding X700 Pro - NOT 20 :banana::banana::banana::banana:ING MINUTES AFTER MAKING THE ABOVE POST.



I plugged in my Peltier PSU without using my relay, had to turn the machine off unexpectedly, got distracted, and forgot to unplug the pelt PSU.

I heard cracking noises coming from the machine, but unplugged the PSU too late. The card isnt burned or anything, but I cannot get it to give me a moniter signal.



Dude, be damn careful with your peltiers. I can't believe I just did that. I've been running pelts for a while now, without serious incident... this is a dangerous cooling method.


:banana::banana::banana::banana: :banana::banana::banana::banana: :banana::banana::banana::banana: :banana::banana::banana::banana: :banana::banana::banana::banana: :banana::banana::banana::banana:!

[Aphex_Tom_9]

wow, you just got an express ticket to Irony-ville...
sorry man

[felinusz]

Yeah, talk about it. I feel so..... careless and belittled. I mean, who posts good safety advice and then :banana::banana::banana::banana:s up on the exact thing he posted not 20 minutes later?


This is the first piece of hardware I have ever killed due to overclocking, and the only fun part was burning it afterwards.

[Marci]

http://www.over-clock.com/ivb/index.php?showtopic=1085 << Pump failure on a TEC System - 240v pump so no "rpm monitoring thru bios" safety features that folks are getting used to these days.

If you're gonna use TECs my advice:

12v pump running off PC.
Swiftech Rev2 relay to connect TEC PSU to PC PSU for simultaneous on/off
mCubed T-Balancer set up so that...
if flow = 0lpm switch off
if liquid temp = 40+ switch off
if fan rpm = <1000rpm switch off
if cpu temp = 40+ switch off

THEN you have a relatively safe TEC setup... just like mine :D

[Holst]

I dont trust RPM monitoring programs much myself, but I suppose its better than nothing.

I think I would prefer some sort of micro switch attached to a relay flow safety system .. should be easy to make and effective.

I think that part of the reason I never trusted TEC was that I never had all the safety stuff you should do ... making that electronics was harder than setting up the TEC itself :P

:( felinusz ... i think that is as goon an example as your going to get of the dangers of TEC.

[n00b 0f l337]

Bar, see you got distracted. This is why I also only run tec's with relays. Its almost common sense to me.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

why not run TEC and Pump(s) and fan(s) off the same power supply?
Also, is it safe to just turn the TEC off when you're not doing any extreme overclocking/running under load (when you're not there, basically)?

[n00b 0f l337]

No. Tec will then be just an insulator. And thats what I do. Tec, pump, fans off same switch.

[Helheim]

why not run TEC and Pump(s) and fan(s) off the same power supply?

With a high watt TEC you'll need a seperate power supply.

[ls7corvete]

With a high watt TEC you'll need a seperate power supply.

Fans and pump dont have to be on compy PSU.

[felinusz]

Also, is it safe to just turn the TEC off when you're not doing any extreme overclocking/running under load (when you're not there, basically)?

Yes it is, if your video card is not overvolted or overclocked.

Due to the heat dump and power consumption of my peltiered setup, I ran my video card at stock speeds with the peltier turned off, but with the peltiered waterblock installed, for about a month of the summer. I saw load temperatures around 39 degrees celcius - not dangerous at all, and way better than stock aircooled numbers to boot :D

[n00b 0f l337]

Thats not right somehow... Tec's are insulators when not on...

[mdzcpa]

Tec's are insulators when not on...

This is correct. TECs when not powered conduct no heat and actually insulate. Although some folks might have examples of how they ran things without powering the TEC, make no mistake, the waterblock wasn't providing any significant cooling.

Moral...always power your TEC for cooling.

And, always uses relays along with monitors (flowrates, temps, etc) :)

[Holst]

With a coldplate you can get away with the TEC off on a GPU as long as your just in the desktop.

BUT you risk overheating the card if you play a game and forget to turn the TEC on, or possibly even playing a vedeo/dvd might cause you problems.

Again, an unnecicary risk IMO.

[felinusz]

Hmm, peculiar. I am aware that TECs act as insulators when not powered, but I was not aware that they were "perfect" insulators.

As I said, I ran my X700 Pro without issue at stock speeds and voltages, for gaming, web browsing, and watching movies, and my load temperatures averaged around 39 degrees celcius throughout (as measured at the direct rear of the GPU core, on the reverse side of the PCB) with the TEC powered off. The card overclocked just as minty after this treatment as she did before it... I fully intend to run my next card in this manner as well, if the heat dump and electrical consumption becomes an issue again.

I also intend to not be a careless fool twice, and use a relay every single time I bench this time around... :bannana: :(

[Holst]

They are not perfect insulators by a long way.

But they are not very good conductors thats for sure... but like I said .. with a cold plate to spread the heat you will be ok as long as your not putting too much wattage out.

[speed bump]

I agree with Holst you can probably get away with it on your x700 felinusz but on something like a x8x0 series or a 6800/7800 or a CPU other than maybe a socket a mobile I wouldn't risk it that just to much heat to risk not being able to dissipate fast enough.

[Holst]

I would never risk it on a CPU.

A CPU can go to high load under normall windows applications.

Where as you wont load a GPU unless you play a game.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

With a high watt TEC you'll need a seperate power supply.
yes yes, i know. I meant off the same seperate power supply. Trust me, I know plenty about peltier powersupply requirements... *shudders*

[Gimmpy224]

Yea, but with a relay wouldnt the TEC never be shut off as long as the system is running?

I may even leave my system on for days at a time, will that be a bad thing with a TEC?

:) TECs dont sound to scary the way Marci said lol.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

well, basically what i'm saying is have the cooling powered completely seperately from the computer and all from the same spot, so that no one component of the cooling can be on without the others being on.
as for leaving system for days at a time... could be scary and fire-causing.

[n00b 0f l337]

if youve worked out your system it shouldnt be a problem

[max_Jaker]

as long as your cooling is up to par no problem ... you can run tec system endlessly.. given all other factors are taken care of as well condensation etc...

[mdzcpa]

Once I had my BIOS temp shutdowns set, and my TEC PSU relay in place, I ran my TEC system 24/7. I tested it by simulating pump failure, and other cooling system failures, and it worked great. As long as the TEC PSU is relayed to the rest of the system so that it cannot be powered on with the pump or anything else off, your safe.

[littleowl]

we need to start a page that is nothing but pic's of where people did something wrong with there Tec and had a melt down like the one showed in this thread!!!! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Aphex_Tom_9]

we need to start a page that is nothing but pic's of where people did something wrong with there Tec and had a melt down like the one showed in this thread!!!! :banana: :banana: :banana:
yes

[littleowl]

it would need a sticky!!!!!! I am working on my first water cooled system and my first tec system!! I am just really scared I will mess something up and fry it all!!!!!!!!

[n00b 0f l337]

Msg me on AIM littleowl if you want any help or advice.

AIM - HWA NoL

[littleowl]

I will n00b 0f l337 I have everything ready I am just waiting on my pump from DD

[gbomb944]

Hmm, peculiar. I am aware that TECs act as insulators when not powered, but I was not aware that they were "perfect" insulators.

As I said, I ran my X700 Pro without issue at stock speeds and voltages, for gaming, web browsing, and watching movies, and my load temperatures averaged around 39 degrees celcius throughout (as measured at the direct rear of the GPU core, on the reverse side of the PCB) with the TEC powered off. The card overclocked just as minty after this treatment as she did before it... I fully intend to run my next card in this manner as well, if the heat dump and electrical consumption becomes an issue again.

I also intend to not be a careless fool twice, and use a relay every single time I bench this time around... :bannana: :(

I did the same thing with an 80w tec and it seemed to work pretty good. I have a feeling that a lot of the heat gets turned into electricity is grounded off. My temps were around the same as I got with just water so the tec was almost transparent. IMO tec as insulator could well be a myth but I'll wait until I get a functional setup to test.

[mdzcpa]

IMO tec as insulator could well be a myth

Its not an insulator, but a non powered TEC is a very very poor thermal conductor. Try running a non powered TEC on a GPU that throws some real heat and you'll find out quickly that little heat makes it way to the waterblock.

[ls7corvete]

Its not an insulator, but a non powered TEC is a very very poor thermal conductor. Try running a non powered TEC on a GPU that throws some real heat and you'll find out quickly that little heat makes it way to the waterblock.

Whats the diff between a poor thermal conductor and an insulator?

[tatts]

i was gonna get a vapochill and didnt because its to dangerous for me & dont trust myself lol then thought i would try a tec, after reading this thread im gonna stick to WC i think which ive only just got and try not wonder to far yet lol

[Gimmpy224]

meh i decided tec wont cool enough ^_^ so Im going to start up a chilled liquid project one my w/c system is up and running :-D

especially since there are other way around the tools unlike in phasechange ;).

[mdzcpa]

Whats the diff between a poor thermal conductor and an insulator?

Nothing. Thermal conductivity is relative. You need to rely on the effectiveness of a material to insulate or conduct for its intended use to classify it.

[Tibu]

http://www.over-clock.com/ivb/index.php?showtopic=1085 << Pump failure on a TEC System - 240v pump so no "rpm monitoring thru bios" safety features that folks are getting used to these days.

If you're gonna use TECs my advice:

12v pump running off PC.
Swiftech Rev2 relay to connect TEC PSU to PC PSU for simultaneous on/off
mCubed T-Balancer set up so that...
if flow = 0lpm switch off
if liquid temp = 40+ switch off
if fan rpm = <1000rpm switch off
if cpu temp = 40+ switch off

THEN you have a relatively safe TEC setup... just like mine :D

What exactly is this mCubed t-balancer you speak off? :confused:

[Marci]

www.mcubed.de

[Gimmpy224]

yea, if i do make a TEC setup, im going to take every safety precaution I can.

no reason to have my house reduced to ashes because I was to lazy to spend a little money that could have prevented it.

[Revivalist]

This is a very interesting topic about turning off the pelt. . .

I just installed a 320W pelt on my CPU and I discovered that I can turn off the pelt without any problems as long as I'm running stock or underclocking. In fact, I found this to be very helpful for daily use because I don't need to overclock while using the internet, Word, etc. . .

Here are some detailed tests that I ran. . . Prime95 ("In-place large FFTs") was used for at least 15 min. to put a load on the CPU. The room was 25C and fans were run at maximum speed. The results were as follows:

With the TEC on, stock speed & voltage (2.2GHz, 1.50 Vcore)
(Idle: -6C / Load: 9C)

With the TEC on, underclocked & undervolted (1.06GHz, 1.07 Vcore)
(Idle: -10C / Load: -9C)

With the TEC on, overclocked & overvolted (2.6GHz, 1.70 Vcore)
(Idle: -2C / Load: 18C)

----------------

With the TEC off, stock speed & voltage (2.2GHz, 1.50 Vcore)
(Idle: 34C / Load: 52C)

With the TEC off, underclocked (1.06GHz, 1.07V Vcore)
(Idle: 29C / Load: 32C)

With the TEC on, overclocked & overvolted (2.6GHz, 1.70 Vcore)
(Idle: 41C / Load: Temps too high to test)

[OpTiX]

mdzcpa dude how did that happen it looks so bad imprint of the chip on the water block....lol :stick:

[mdzcpa]

mdzcpa dude how did that happen it looks so bad imprint of the chip on the water block

Didn't have the TEC PSU relayed. Stupid move.

You should ALWAYS have your TEC PSU relayed. If the system shuts down for any reason, its important the TEC does too. Most folks run thier pumps and rad fans off thier ATX system PSU, so if the system goes down, coooling stops. That's a bad thing when you have a powered TEC.

Once you've relayed to your ATX PSU, you control other problems such as pump failure through your BIOS. Set a CPU max shutdown temp in the BIOS and you solve the issues. Anything that makes the temp rise too high simply kills the power to the TEC.

[Kunaak]

about 3-4 years ago, when I first heard about pelts, I thought they sounded great.
I was a total noob back then, and got alot of bad advice.
I ended up making this weird dual pump, trippe rad, thing, cause I wanted all the cooling I could get, and wanted 2 pumps incase one failed, and just for the hell of it, I also had a idea, that if I never turned the PC off... I would never have to worry about accidentally not turning it on.

for all that, all I was cooling was a 9700 pro, and my chipset on my 8RDA.
the CPU was prometeia cooled.
I felt like I was running the fastest computer on earth haha... which for the time, it kinda was one of the fastest around...

but one day, I came home, and found that my PSU had just burnt up. it was on everyday, all day, for a good 6 months... came home, smelled alittle weird smell that I really can't describe... it's not like when you fry a processor or anything, definatly different...

for all my idiotic cautionary stuff, the one thing I could not have solved, is what if the power went off...
well, the PSU went off...
the prometiea shut the PC off.
the fans that where connected to the radiator... through the PSU, that power the Prometia... also went off...
the pump never went off... which may have delayed the burning up process... but sure enough, my 9700 pro was history. the motherboard and CPU strangely were just fine.

sadly, that was the second 9700 pro, that I killed from a Pelt.
since then, I really stopped trying to use them, except in rare cases when I need extra cooling on something other then a CPU, and have few other options for a benchmark.

[Gimmpy224]

was the smell electricity?

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

electricity has no odor; ozone (tends to be produced by high voltage arcs, etc) has a delicious odor that kills brain cells :)
if it wasn't the magical smoke being let out of various ICs or something it was probably ozone

[despat]

Anyone know where I can find an mCubed T-Balancer to ship to canada?? I think the best one is the SL4 version for TEC project?? googled and all i find is austrailia and germany


http://www.over-clock.com/ivb/index.php?showtopic=1085 << Pump failure on a TEC System - 240v pump so no "rpm monitoring thru bios" safety features that folks are getting used to these days.

If you're gonna use TECs my advice:

12v pump running off PC.
Swiftech Rev2 relay to connect TEC PSU to PC PSU for simultaneous on/off
mCubed T-Balancer set up so that...
if flow = 0lpm switch off
if liquid temp = 40+ switch off
if fan rpm = <1000rpm switch off
if cpu temp = 40+ switch off

THEN you have a relatively safe TEC setup... just like mine :D

[DeNs]

The thread's two years old - you might've been better to make a new thread about it :)

Seems there's a few retailers in canada for mCubed stuff. See the following link.

http://www.mcubed-tech.com/english/haendler.htm

---dens

[hecktic]

The thread's two years old - you might've been better to make a new thread about it :)

Seems there's a few retailers in canada for mCubed stuff. See the following link.

http://www.mcubed-tech.com/english/haendler.htm

---dens

thats not the same mCubed is it?

[Marci]

Yes.

[despat]

All those links don't have anything about the mCubed sales. This is getting really frustrating. Don't they make these anymore??

[Larry]

Here is a link for the uk maybe they will ship to you

http://www.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/products/fanless

[Marci]

There are no official US / Canada Resellers that I know of... order direct from mCubed here: http://www.mcubed-store.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=169

(Once they're back in stock)

[lowfat]

There are no official US / Canada Resellers that I know of... order direct from mCubed here: http://www.mcubed-store.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=169

(Once they're back in stock)
Performance PCs (in USA) sells them under Alphacool. Although I have found buying them directly from mCubed to be cheaper.

[lowfat]

Alhough this thread is very old, just read through the whole thing and it is very imformative :)

[hecktic]

67 EUR ... expensive?

[littleowl]

67 EUR ... expensive?

67 Euros = 92.3327 U.S. dollars

[d44ve]

I use mine everyday.... not 24\7 but I would say around 4-5 hours a day without an issue

[Stigma]

Given that you have adequate insulation and ample power supply, there is no problem with running a TEC cooling unit 24/7. A TEC dosn't normally wear out if it is properly mounted.

I ran a TEC-cooled rig for about 2 years in daily use witohut any problems whatsoever. I have later on "graduated" to phasecooling since I have come to realize that TECs are just too inefficient to make a good cooling system from.

-Stigma

[naPS]

No.

You couldn't be more wrong.