ATi Shimmering Too

[Major_A]

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2005/09/08/cat58_shimmering/
Guess all you guys that think nVidia is the only company that optimizes their drivers are incorrect.

[spruce]

ati has it with one set of drivers on a select few maps........... Nvidia has it with every driver in every game. BIG difference.I believe H/Q makes it go away also unlike Nvidia. Nice try though :clap:

[ingentingmendeg]

Major A, i dont mean to be an ass or anything but. are you trying to make Ati look bad just because the 7800gtx sucks?

[Major_A]

Nope trying to inform you guys that this happens with both companies.

[spruce]

ati has it with one set of drivers on a select few maps........... Nvidia has it with every driver in every game. BIG difference.I believe H/Q makes it go away also unlike Nvidia. Nice try though :clap:

1 more time. ^^^ :)

[cadaveca]

Yeah, the shimmering effect is pretty obvious in the nature test in 3dmark05 on both cards. Old news, if you ask me. Problem is becasue of not enough AA samples.

[dnavarro]

Major A, i dont mean to be an ass or anything but. are you trying to make Ati look bad just because the 7800gtx sucks?


You do sound like an ass. Fact is, only one year ago ATI had to fight off allegations of optimizing/ image degrading with a "web conference". Both companies have done it at one time or another. Both have released "fixes" in the past (like the recent NVIDIA beta's that fix the shimmering). And most likely both will do it again. Regardless, "shimmering aside" a 7800GTX kills the x850xt in anything out there (high rez/AA/AF). And in situations it doesn't it is CPU limited. Saying it sucks is a response a 5 year old gives. It obviously doesn't. ATI may come up with better, that is to be seen....

D

[Nanometer]

You do sound like an ass. Fact is, only one year ago ATI had to fight off allegations of optimizing/ image degrading with a "web conference". Both companies have done it at one time or another. Both have released "fixes" in the past (like the recent NVIDIA beta's that fix the shimmering). And most likely both will do it again. Regardless, "shimmering aside" a 7800GTX kills the x850xt in anything out there (high rez/AA/AF). And in situations it doesn't it is CPU limited. Saying it sucks is a response a 5 year old gives. It obviously doesn't. ATI may come up with better, that is to be seen....

D

Well said, I've found a mature person here, does anyone else care to join the club?

[spruce]

a 7800GTX kills the x850xt in anything out there (high rez/AA/AF).

D


hmm I know for a fact myx800xtpe was faster and had better I/Q in some games than my 7800gtx. The x850 is actually close in D3D to the 7800 when 4xaa and 16xaf are used.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/2005-17gpu_8.html

[QuikSilver]

ugh, dont start a flame fest.... :slapass:

[spruce]

no flames, just facts. I've owned both cards, I know what each has to offer :)

[QuikSilver]

no flames, just facts. I've owned both cards, I know what each has to offer :)

Im talking about everyone in general, not pointing fingers

[Ugly n Grey]

Fair warning, some of the comments are close to being flames. Keep it about the topic and hand and not about the people posting their thoughts.

I don't think this issue is quite as far reaching for ATI as it is for Nvidia. Since there are so many threads I'm not restating everything here. But in a nutshell, I kinda think Nvidia over optimized on purpose and ATI just has a glitch going on. Hell of a difference.

I'm not a fanboy, I could care less personally not being a gamer, but I usually buy ATI stuff because I like the 2D aspects of the card better. Imagine that...someone shopping for a video card based on their personal 2D preference. I'm simply stating this before the fanboy name calling starts.

[ingentingmendeg]

hmm I know for a fact myx800xtpe was faster and had better I/Q in some games than my 7800gtx. The x850 is actually close in D3D to the 7800 when 4xaa and 16xaf are used.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/2005-17gpu_8.html

lol a X850XT PE is faster than a single 7800GTX in BF2 :confused:

[Nanometer]

lol a X850XT PE is faster than a single 7800GTX in BF2 :confused:


Yea, BF2 is under a D3D engine, and you're gonna tell us the 850 xt is faster than a 7800gtx? lol

[spruce]

I know for a fact an x800xtpe is faster than a 7800gtx @ 1600x1200 HQ w/4xaa and 16af in GTR, N2003 and GTlegends .The ati card looks better to boot :)

[dnavarro]

SPRUCE, try real high rez.like1920X1200 with high AF/AA. Than tell me your x850xt holds a candle to a GTX. Point is 1600x1200 is not considered high rez like it used to be. For God sake's the GTX was designed to be most efficient at 2048x1536. Comparing it at 1600x1200 is not a true test.

I think this is why so many of you guys think the GTX sucks. You don't compare it at a REAL stressful resolution, and oftentimes you are seeing it CPU limited and the x850 (with more efficient drivers atm) stays very close in those situations.



D

[spruce]

1600x1200 is "high res"


"For God sake's the GTX was designed to be most efficient at 2048x1536."

link? proof?

[Stewie007]

Oh just get over it already.

I don't care who makes the card. If you have to say, the card is limited by the CPU, then what good is that extra horsepower? And I will say the same for ATI when they come out with their next blitzer.

All its really for is to get people like us to spend copius amounts of money on the stuff.

[dnavarro]

Here's your proof. After one minute on google:
http://techreport.com/etc/2005q3/hires-gaming/index.x?pg=1

"First came an answer from NVIDIA's Nick Stam, who forthrightly but cryptically admitted that the NV40 GPU powering the GeForce 6800 Ultra isn't at its best at exceptionally high resolutions. His statement to me read like so:

The 6800 series chips were designed to provide excellent performance up to 1600x1200, and although they support higher 3D resolutions, they lack certain hardware features to deliver strong performance at 2048x1536. The 7800GTX was designed to deliver much higher raw performance at 2048x1536, and better performance scaling from 1600x1200 to 2048x1536."

and...
"There are many features and performance optimizations (like zcull) that on NV4x are optimized for 2 Mpixels, and on G70 are optimized for 3 Mpixels. Like ATI, we also can operate on part of the screen at resolutions beyond our design point (the level at which the chip was originally designed to perform optimally). For example, an NV40 running @ 2048x1536 might be around 60% efficient with some of its optimizations like zcull"...

FYI 3 Megapixels is roughly 2048x1536



That enough for you?

D

[spruce]

from your source lol "So that's what the performance picture looks like at uber-high resolution with today's most outrageously expensive graphics cards. At the end of the day, performance at 2048x1536 isn't really a good indicator of relative rendering power or likely performance in future games, but it is a very interesting special case"

and in case you missed it "performance at 2048x1536 isn't really a good indicator of relative rendering power or likely performance in future games, but it is a very interesting special case"

fyi 3.1 M/P is 2048x1536

I wonder if you even have a 7800 card, or an x800 series card. Would be funny , you commenting on stuff you dont have. :yepp:

[Ugly n Grey]

Keep it about topic of cards, flaming isn't cool whatsoever.

UnG

[Cybercat]

Major A, i dont mean to be an ass or anything but. are you trying to make Ati look bad just because the 7800gtx sucks?
if the 7800GTX sucks, then sucking must be pretty damn sweet.

[spruce]

http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gtr8bj.jpg

if this is "sweet" more power to ya. I for one think its horrid for a 500.00 video card

[Cybercat]

Simply put, the 7800GTX offers the best image quality currently available, with the highest available performance accompanying it. Yeah I think that is sweet.

(PS, image shack + truncate res scaling = poop)

[Vapor]

http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gtr8bj.jpg

if this is "sweet" more power to ya. I for one think its horrid for a 500.00 video card
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! You used a SS to show a shimmer! Not only that, you compressed it to JPG! :slap:

The 7800GTX is simply superior, that has been shown over and over...it can run at a higher resolution, with higher IQ settings. Not only that, but with 78.03 drivers, the shimmer is gone.

Plus, it benches higher :D

[spruce]

so the above picture is "best image quality" ? The IQ of the 7800's is not even close to that of the x800 series

ps, thats how it looks in the game. I should know its mine.



"but with 78.03 drivers, the shimmer is gone." no its not.

[Cybercat]

so the above picture is "best image quality" ? The IQ of the 7800's is not even close to that of the x800 series

ps, thats how it looks in the game. I should know its mine.



"but with 78.03 drivers, the shimmer is gone." no its not.
there was nothing to your argument when you and others claimed the IQ of the 7800GTX was crap. Then your argument went completely down the toilet when you went one further and said the X800 series has better IQ.

I don't know if you're trying to win the argument, or paralyze us from laughter so we can't fight back.

[dnavarro]

from your source lol "So that's what the performance picture looks like at uber-high resolution with today's most outrageously expensive graphics cards. At the end of the day, performance at 2048x1536 isn't really a good indicator of relative rendering power or likely performance in future games, but it is a very interesting special case"

and in case you missed it "performance at 2048x1536 isn't really a good indicator of relative rendering power or likely performance in future games, but it is a very interesting special case"

fyi 3.1 M/P is 2048x1536

I wonder if you even have a 7800 card, or an x800 series card. Would be funny , you commenting on stuff you dont have. :yepp:

Well I said 2048x1536 was "roughly" 3 megapixels...which it is. I am sorry of you do not know what roughly is ;)

And I believe will tell you it is very possible to get a bottleneck at 1600x1200. Many games do with a 7800GTX or 7800GTX SLI.

Finally, I believe we were talking about how your x800xt pe was just as fast as a GTX with better image quality "to boot". I am saying it is nowhere near a GTX. Try 1920x1200 with high AA/AF or 2048x1536. Your x800xtpe won't hold a candle. And that is my point. They are not close at those high rez's. And many (like myself) game at those rezs. This is why an x800 is not an option for me.

FYI I do have a GTX. I ebayed my 6800U's below. I may by another, but I am waiting for the r520. I am not a fanboy. I will by the best out and at the moment and that is the GTX :)

D

[spruce]

must be a bug that my x800 was faster with better I/Q at 1600x1200. It must be the 7800 isnt "optamised" for 16x12. lmao, I have both cards ,in the games I play (racing sims) the 7800 sucks. You can argue that till your blue in the face but you will be fighting a losing battle.

[Cybercat]

When thousands of other happy owners of the 7800GTX feel the opposite of the way you feel, it is obviously you who is "fighting a losing battle".

[cadaveca]

uh, no he isn't. the 7800GTX sucks. colinmcrae rally05...flawless @ 1600x1200 on the x850xtpe, not overclocked.

I can't even play the game @ 1024x768 without stutter on the 7800. it's becaseu of the memory interface, i understand, but that is not excuse. I sohuld not have to go SLi to get proper visual quality.

[Cybercat]

You know, I really shouldn't bother. With half of this board, this is their opinion:

"The Radeon X850XTPE is faster and has better IQ than the 7800GTX with the latest drivers, high quality settings, SM3.0, 64-bit HDR, and transparency AA."

I doubt even the Rage3D has such a major problem with fanboyism.

Next thing you know you'll be saying the 7800GTX has a crappy inefficient architecture. "OMG 540MHz blows away the crappy 430MHz on the GTX!!!111"

Nevermind the fact that the GTX does 103.2 billion shader ops per second, with a Hierarchical Z buffer optimized for up to 3 MP resolutions, and the X850XT PE does 34.6 billion ops a second, and has a Hierarchical Z buffer only optimized for 2 MP max.

*leaves board/National Zoo for good*

[cadaveca]

Ok, now, honestly, the 7800 series does suck, but as you have pointed out, not because of the hardware, but because of the drivers. :fact:

[Vapor]

I have no problems with my 7800GTX or its drivers....1920x1200 4xTRSSAA/16xAF is damn sweet though (on every game I play, to boot).

It benches higher too, that counts for more than any game in my book.

[dnavarro]

For you ATI Fanboys (I know there has to be some in here...)
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2532

I am not impressed. I was hoping for higher clocks and more pipes. ATI has a lot of lost time to make up for....

D

[Vapor]

Interesting, how is that stuff not under NDA?

[trance565]

yea the pipes kina made me sad, i saw another thing on the cards about a week ago ... dissappointed me. anyways, on a side not, i hate widescreen, cant stand it, but that might just be because im on a old CRT, and havent had enuff time on it to get used to it.

[Vapor]

Widescreen is great--it most games it just widens what you see.

[zabomb4163]

odd...ATI people used to say the only reason the 7800GTX was better was because it was next gen vs old gen. now we have gone to saying the 7800gtx isnt better at all.

[cadaveca]

Interesting, how is that stuff not under NDA?
NDA is actually up on the 15th, apparantly. we will start to see lots soon. ;)

[Vapor]

Yes, but today is before the 15th in all timezones....I would think this info is covered by NDA.

[cadaveca]

yeah, but 24-48 hrs? you realize that all those companies give each site a turn at "first look", right? Site's don't listen, they don't get the pre-release hardware. This is standard fare, really...deja vu for me!

[Major_A]

yea the pipes kina made me sad, i saw another thing on the cards about a week ago ... dissappointed me. anyways, on a side not, i hate widescreen, cant stand it, but that might just be because im on a old CRT, and havent had enuff time on it to get used to it.
We know many people get caught up in pipeline counts debate lately. The GeForce 7800 GTX does have 24 pixel pipelines and 16 ROPs, while the GeForce 7800 GT has 20 pixel pipelines. We are starting to move into a time now however where pipeline count really isn’t as important as a performance indicator as it used to be. In the past, you could simply look at the fillrate and guess the performance. With video cards today, I think we need to start moving beyond this kind of thinking and not get so caught up in the details that may sway our purchasing decisions. Definitions and architectures are changing; how a pipeline is defined is changing; and how performance is derived from fillrate is changing. We should simply look at the game play performance and image quality delivered by each card and make an informed purchase decision based on that criteria.
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=ODAzLDE0

However...X1800 XT 16 600MHz 700MHz 512MB GDDR3 $599
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2532
If this card does not compete very well with the 7800 GTX who in their right mind would pay almost $150 more for a X1800 XT?
MSI 7800 GTX $455 AR (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814127187&CMP=OTC-pr1c3watch&ATT=Video+Cards)

That and who knows how much they are going to charge for the Master card so you can use Crossfire. I saw somewhere in the last few days ATi wants $550 for the X850 Crossfire Master card. Okay found the source (http://www.beyond3d.com/reviews/ati/mvp/index.php?p=i02).

[einCe]

awww maaan....now i gotta buy a 7800gt *flushes ati fanboyism down the drain* :(
someone console me in my time of pain

[Vapor]

so the above picture is "best image quality" ? The IQ of the 7800's is not even close to that of the x800 series

ps, thats how it looks in the game. I should know its mine.



"but with 78.03 drivers, the shimmer is gone." no its not.
Oh, I forgot...I'm calling shens on how that looks in game--LOL. Realtime jpeg compression effect? WOW! Wanna even discuss IQ? Post a .png or .tif or an .avi of it in action. I HAVE a 7800GTX and have no such problems using all the highest settings (of course, I stick to GT4 as my only source of racing, so I don't play this game).

As for it not being close to that of the X800 series, wrong. It is actually better through enabling of higher settings and transparent SSAA. At the same settings as my 9800XT, it looks identical; X800 series is identical to 9800 series IQ wise.

I *still* can't get over people using JPEGs to show IQ, LOL (this is at you and bit-tech's Lost Coast preview).

[Frackal]

hmm I know for a fact myx800xtpe was faster and had better I/Q in some games than my 7800gtx. The x850 is actually close in D3D to the 7800 when 4xaa and 16xaf are used.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/2005-17gpu_8.html




Ahhh not you again, weren't you just on anandtech saying this?

[alexio]

My 6800 card has horrible image quality with every driver I've used. I even send the card back to the store twice to get it replaced. After 2 XFX cards and 1 Asus I just kept the Asus. Before all this I had a 9800 pro and it is sooooooo much better than the 6800. I'd rather play games without AA and AF at the ATI card than with AA and AF at the Nvidia card.

People that like the 6800 series cards are either blind or don't want to admit that their card sucks after they paid a fortune for it.

Just my :2cents:

[TMM]

Seems a bit suss how many people in this thread own 7800's, yet are bagging them out like no tomorrow.

Any chance you guys just bought them to up your 3dWang scores, and then come over hear and bag them out?

in all honesty, if you think a card is crap, just don't buy it. Go buy your X850XTs, and drool all over your monitors at the image quality and be done with it. I don't regret buying my 6800GT at all. Sure the drivers have a few bugs, but they are slowly getting fixed.. do you think nVidia LIKES to have crap drivers? no i don't think so.

[spruce]

Ahhh not you again, weren't you just on anandtech saying this?

I think your "meds" must be kicking in.

funny thing is all these so called "experts" in this thread that dont own a 7800 or an x850 lol


Anyhow you guys have fun with those 7800's I finally sold mine and bought an x850. Finally I have crisp, solid track lines in my racing sims :woot:

[Cyprio]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26228
Some consolation?

[Major_A]

My 6800 card has horrible image quality with every driver I've used. I even send the card back to the store twice to get it replaced. After 2 XFX cards and 1 Asus I just kept the Asus. Before all this I had a 9800 pro and it is sooooooo much better than the 6800. I'd rather play games without AA and AF at the ATI card than with AA and AF at the Nvidia card.

People that like the 6800 series cards are either blind or don't want to admit that their card sucks after they paid a fortune for it.

Just my :2cents:
BF2 is more GPU dependent, so having a fast CPU isn't as noticeable as it is in HL2. That being said I gave my brother in law my old 9800 Pro. Yesterday while I was at his house I was playing some BF2. While the card runs at the same resolution as my 6800nu the fact that most of the settings are on Medium with no AA the game looks a lot worse.

[Think]

What do game developers use?