Help Making A Phase

[Dementor]

Hey guys. After ordering and awaiting one of Chilly1's great phases, and seeing how many people go on about and try making them themselves. I wanted to give it a go. I have read the guides, and have been viewing the forums on other phases often. I was going to go to the hardware store and pick up some tools and things I would need for this, and this is what I have so far on my list:

Map Gas Torch
Press Gauge
Flaring Tools
Pipe Benders
Brazing Rods
Pipe Cutters
Charging Hose
Vaccum Pump
Cap-Tube Cutter
Dremel
Compressor (Don't have any specifics)

I know that there are more things I need, and this is where I need your help. I would like you to all add onto what I need, a estimate on total price, a specs on what I should get on my list... A certain model as a ex, and things of that sort. Any help with the specs and stuff like that. Great job guys on y our work. Keep it up!

[jinu117]

Swaging tool
Nitrogen tank with nitrogen regulator (about $200 for me)
Spunfilter (or a like)
Tubings obviously :P
Condensor
Schreder valves
Recovery machine (hmm hope this $200 one from e-bay will work well... had to return one already seems like avg selling price on these are about $300)
Recovery tanks (with 80% float) (tank about $60-70 float sensor about $50-60)
EPA certification to get the needed gas (anywhere from $200-300 or so for more readily available gas).
It is illegal to vent any refrigerant to atmosphere (and costly) I believe maximum fines are $27,500 per occuracne per day and(or) maximum 5 years of jail time. (I tend to think extra $300-$700 inlay is better than that not to mention saving on gas while testing, etc)

and last but not least, Advices from people around you (<<< PRICESLESS) I am having such fun time learning :)

[Dementor]

Swaging tool
Nitrogen tank with nitrogen regulator (about $200 for me)
Spunfilter (or a like)
Tubings obviously :P
Condensor
Schreder valves
Recovery machine (hmm hope this $200 one from e-bay will work well... had to return one already seems like avg selling price on these are about $300)
Recovery tanks (with 80% float) (tank about $60-70 float sensor about $50-60)
EPA certification to get the needed gas (anywhere from $200-300 or so for more readily available gas).
It is illegal to vent any refrigerant to atmosphere (and costly) I believe maximum fines are $27,500 per occuracne per day and(or) maximum 5 years of jail time. (I tend to think extra $300-$700 inlay is better than that not to mention saving on gas while testing, etc)

and last but not least, Advices from people around you (<<< PRICESLESS) I am having such fun time learning :)


....
Most people say how they only spends $100-$300 making these units and somehow your additional help goes for over $1000? I doubt most of the people here has a EPA cert and such? Or am I wrong?

I am also truly sorry if you believe this is a bash. Im just trying to get everything straightened out. I really really do appreciate that btw. Thanks :)

[jinu117]

....
Most people say how they only spends $100-$300 making these units and somehow your additional help goes for over $1000? I doubt most of the people here has a EPA cert and such? Or am I wrong?

I am also truly sorry if you believe this is a bash. Im just trying to get everything straightened out. I really really do appreciate that btw. Thanks :)

That's what I thought before I jumped in :) Kind of glad I did have extra backup budget. $100-$300 if you have all the tools and euipments handy. You will notice most big names were pretty much HVAC people to begin with who had all the tools in hand. I doubt if majority of people in US here doesn't have EPA certification... only took 3 hours total to get mine. (You could go for universal which I am planning to take but Type I lets you buy gas and teaches you consequences of not doing proper recovery... It just is flat out illegal to purge system out in air)
So far my expenditure has been about $1200-1400 to get me properly ready. Just need few more things and I can start brazing on real system vacuum it, etc.
None of these specialty tools are really cheap as I am guessing volume consumed isn't that great. You can spend the amount you mentioned in GAS alone. R404a goes for $200-250, r402a goes for $250-300. You really can't get small sized of these anyway so you are stuck getting bunch other stuff.

PS) I already had all the case modding tool imaginable short of plasma cutter lol. So, yes, even I am not totally starting from nothing.

[The Weedman]

If your just looking to build something simple it doesnt cost much at all. Ive spent about $450cnd. That includes gauges, swagging tool, compressor, second compressor for vacuum pump, captube, 10' of 3/8" copper tube, 10' 5/16", 10' 1/4", 36" suction line, toggle switch, condensor, brazing torch and rods, evap and propane. If you dont want to get your cetificate then propane works fine. So far my system hits somewhere below -50c, my temp probe maxes there. That also includes shipping for some of the items.

[Gray Mole]

If you can find a supplier for used/old stock and ebay a lot of it in, then you CAN set up for a lot less, but it can sure be hard to get a decent deal on some things.

I think I'm up to around £400 or so, and I still haven't got everything I need, but I'm pretty close. I'm putting a Cascade together so the costs are a little higher for gas and such, and a few other extras you don't need for singles, but really the cost will run you more than you think, usually.

You have to claw back the costs by making and selling a few units if you want, but if it's a hobby, you can spend that on a pc and it's obselete in 5 minutes anyway, so I personally don't worry too much about the outlay.

Just start buying what you think you need first, then start putting things together and asking for advice, and you'll get the rest over time too.

One thing though, make sure you get a Vac pump for the job, a compressor really doesn't cut it. Keep in mind unless you want to set up for machining, you'll need to get premade evap blocks, so factor that in too.

Gray

[Dementor]

Thanks for all your information. The hardware store is closed on sundays, so ill have to wait until tomorrow. Ill keep ya posted on what happens tomorrow while i go there. Thanks again.

[gclg2000]

your not going to find all of that at your normal hardware store. At least not in my area.

Look at refridgeration suppliers for alot of it.

[C-BuZz]

That's what I thought before I jumped in :) Kind of glad I did have extra backup budget. $100-$300 if you have all the tools and euipments handy. You will notice most big names were pretty much HVAC people to begin with who had all the tools in hand. I doubt if majority of people in US here doesn't have EPA certification... only took 3 hours total to get mine. (You could go for universal which I am planning to take but Type I lets you buy gas and teaches you consequences of not doing proper recovery... It just is flat out illegal to purge system out in air)
So far my expenditure has been about $1200-1400 to get me properly ready. Just need few more things and I can start brazing on real system vacuum it, etc.
None of these specialty tools are really cheap as I am guessing volume consumed isn't that great. You can spend the amount you mentioned in GAS alone. R404a goes for $200-250, r402a goes for $250-300. You really can't get small sized of these anyway so you are stuck getting bunch other stuff.

PS) I already had all the case modding tool imaginable short of plasma cutter lol. So, yes, even I am not totally starting from nothing.

Where did you get your EPA cert from?

Thanks

C-BuZz

[jinu117]

Mainstream engineering. www.qwik.com
Wait a sec you in aus?

[C-BuZz]

Mainstream engineering. www.qwik.com
Wait a sec you in aus?

yes im in Australia. Been looking everywhere for information on how to acquire it.

C-BuZz

[jinu117]

I think this is US specific... there is gotta be something like that in Aus... It probably isn't EPA :P Why don't you search under montreal protocol which started whole thing.
http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/ozone/ might be a place to start with.

[Dementor]

Well i just came back from a local hardware store and they had nothing but a torch and propane gas. I went to a much larger hardware sort of warehouse and they were closed for the day, which sucks. But out of curiousity, is there a site where I could buy most of the tools required to build a phase? Thanks in advance.

[The Weedman]

Ebays a good place to look for gauges and a vacuum pump if you want to spend the money, you can also find a swagging tool there to. Runmc has a store where can buy almost all of the tubing, filters and valves plus some more. Pm him for the link.

[jinu117]

I find swaging punch only usefull for 1/4, 3/8 marginally so...
I wish I had mind to buy actual thing from robinair stuff or what not which swages same way as flaring tools. Or swaging punches from yellow jacket. Don't need all that extra length of tubing to swaging on.

[The Weedman]

This is the set i got. I find this way easier to use then a punch set. It came with a cone to but i dont really use it so i cant find it.

[Ssilencer]

yes im in Australia. Been looking everywhere for information on how to acquire it.

C-BuZz
If you are in Australia, talk to Kayl, he is great doing single stages or cascades.
Send a pm to him, he lives in Australia too.

[Dementor]

Anyone think that they can help me 1 on 1 thru msing or on phone? It would help me alot. I can also offer a compensation in money if you have too many things to do. Thanks :)

[MIN_Roadkill]

I lost count of the money I've spent and still don't have a system running.
Robinair Guages $30
Robinair Vaccum pump $150
Flaring tool $25
Tubing cutter $5
Tube bender $25
Digital multimeter $30
R-404 FREEBIEE (an hvac friend just gave it to me)
50 feet of 3/8 tubing $25
50 feet of 1/4 tubing $20
.31 cap line
Sight glass
Txv $49
Condensing unit $70
Several driers
15% silver solder rods
Map gas tank
Nitrogen tank $100
Nitrogen regulator $40
Cheapo radio shack thermometer $15 (I need a good fluke)
Multiple insulation $40
I still need a swagging tool
I have spent alot more money, those are just the things that come to mind at the moment. I bought everything from Ebay, rparts.com and my local hvac parts store. I walked in the first time planning to act like an hvac guy and found an old highschool friend behind the counter. He takes good care of me :)

[Dementor]

Think you can get me some r404 aswell? LOL But yea. Thanks for that list. If anyone would like to sell me some gases, I would pay for it :-p Oh, and I am building a few units for a business of mine aswell. So i need to get the general concept on making these by the end of the month.

[Ssilencer]

Think you can get me some r404 aswell? LOL But yea. Thanks for that list. If anyone would like to sell me some gases, I would pay for it :-p Oh, and I am building a few units for a business of mine aswell. So i need to get the general concept on making these by the end of the month.


:stick:

[jinu117]

Think you can get me some r404 aswell? LOL But yea. Thanks for that list. If anyone would like to sell me some gases, I would pay for it :-p Oh, and I am building a few units for a business of mine aswell. So i need to get the general concept on making these by the end of the month.

I wouldn't even think about business till after you make successful units. And if you want gas, go take EPA test.... you can buy them off e-bay once you have certifcate.... Keep in mind most local store won't sell to you unless you have account with them which requires Contractor license. I got stumped as I found out I need someone to vouch for 4 years of work in the field on contractor license part (My father has one -mind you the general contractor one to supervise everything instead of specailty one - so it is possible to haggle him to get me account on one but I happen to have my small connection at time).
Not only that, you need to think about RMA (you plan to give warranty right?) cost involved. From what I calculated so far, only way to be real profitable on this is to make something very refined and charge prices accordingly or to mass produce like what asetek and nventive did (thus lowering part cost invovled)
The reason I got into making my own in first place was the improper work performed on my unit for my needs to begin with. I can see how this can be problem for anyone selling unit in different scales. I might make few more units after I make success on my first one and sell few with profit at least to recover some inlay of money I spent getting setup ready (heh, only excuse I can give right now to mucho $$$ I spent).
Think about it again. I personally don't sell things I wouldn't buy myself. Unless you have this kind of ethic, I can see things can get real out of control and it might mean actually losing money to keep your name up until you can establish yourself.

[Dementor]

I understand what you say. Its just that we will be offering Xtreme series computers, in which I would like to provide my company made phases. And btw Jinu, is there a way we can talk more privately without using pm's.. I prefer something realtime. Maybe you can help me and get me on my feet on this. Also, dont you think the EPA test will be very hard for me, since im specifically doing this according to previous setups, vr-tech guides and such. I mean... I really doubt i would pass the test. But if you would have a way we could talk, Im sure you might be able to help me a bit. Thanks

[jinu117]

I can tell you 2 things :)
1) EPA test is breeze for type I. It is open book test.
2) I still haven't built my single stage so I won't be best person to get advise from. I am learning as much as I can right now and looking to do things right way.
If you still wish to ask for my advice (maybe not on technical detail of how to do as I only am book learned as much as you are and haven't done actual job yet... this trip to las vegas should get me last missing piece of puzzle I need to put in) drop me pm with your phone number :)

[Dementor]

Thanks for the reply. Currently Noob of 1337tn3ss is helping me pick out parts and is getting me started. So ill keep you updated. Thanks again for all the help you have provided me. Ill keep ya all updated on this thread.

[n00b 0f l337]

Yeah no probs on the help, i'll be back on around 3:30.

[runmc]

Dementor -
I sent a big order of tools and parts to Brooklyn yestarday. Must have been for you. :D You should have your stuff Friday at the latest.
Thanks from "Under The Ice" online store. :clap:

[Dementor]

Hehe runmc, it sure was me. Thanks. Its a great and very helpful store you have there. You'll be seeing me more often order-wise from now on.

EDIT:

I also would like to know what / where could I study in preparations for the Type I EPA Certificate that will allow me to buy gases? Also, how hard would you rate the test from 1 - 10 *10 being hardest*

[Dementor]

Today I am devoting my time to reading the 608 Manual on taking the test. I shall be taking the test tomorrow. Wish me the best!

[The Weedman]

Hey wheres my props i did the recommending :lol2: j/k

Dementor -
I sent a big order of tools and parts to Brooklyn yestarday. Must have been for you. :D You should have your stuff Friday at the latest.
Thanks from "Under The Ice" online store. :clap:


Runmc has a store where can buy almost all of the tubing, filters and valves plus some more. Pm him for the link.

Good luck on the test dementor :woot:

[Dementor]

Hey wheres my props i did the recommending :lol2: j/k




Good luck on the test dementor :woot:


Hehe Weedman. Funny thing is that you mentioned it, but someone else gave me the link to a site that happened to be Run's site. As i said, you all ROCK! You are all my new best friends! Thanks to everyone. Also, I hope everything goes well on the test aswell. Already done reading half of the book.I should be done reviewing the whole thing a few times by 2 hours. Ive been collecting notes aswell. So ill be reviewing alot and hopefully taking the test tonight! Ill keep ya updated.

[Dementor]

Guess what I got guys:

http://img314.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mycert7zo.jpg

[jinu117]

Guess what I got guys:

http://img314.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mycert7zo.jpg

Told you it is breeze. Card will show up in about week or so (credit card sized)

[runmc]

Thanks Weedman for spreading the word about under-the-ice.com. I need all the publicity I can get.
Congrats Dementor on the certification. Just make sure it's the one you need. I can't remember which is which. There is a 608 and a 609. One is for auto mechanics, the other for HVAC.

[Dementor]

I took the 608 test. Id hate to find out all the things I learned about the ozone and gases including the gases that everyone talks about is from a car. LOL. But yea, I had to retake the last part (core section that had to deal with ecology and the gases and how it affects out world) because i failed it by 1 question that time. Only costs $6.. First time i got 22/25 on the first part and 20/25 on the second part. Retook it and it came up to 22/25. So thats about it. Well, not that I have the cert, can I start buying gases ASAP? Or do I have to wait? Also, wheres a good place to purchase it?

[wdrzal]

having a certificate does allow you to buy gases, but it also puts the responsibility of proper recovery, record keeping and disposal on you. It's not just a free pass to purchase gases. Violations can be costly.

[gclg2000]

I took the 608 test. Id hate to find out all the things I learned about the ozone and gases including the gases that everyone talks about is from a car. LOL. But yea, I had to retake the last part (core section that had to deal with ecology and the gases and how it affects out world) because i failed it by 1 question that time. Only costs $6.. First time i got 22/25 on the first part and 20/25 on the second part. Retook it and it came up to 22/25. So thats about it. Well, not that I have the cert, can I start buying gases ASAP? Or do I have to wait? Also, wheres a good place to purchase it?

Ebay has tanks of freon gas, or you could just go to a local HVACR distributor and order soem through them.

[runmc]

You need to listen to Walt for sure about this. There is actually a reward for turning someone in who is dumping refrigerants into the atmosphere.

Refrigeration supply houses are a good source of gases.

[Dementor]

I dont plan to release them into the atmosphere, especially after reading the harmful effects of what it does to the ozone layer. So.. Minding tell me who is Walt? Sorry, dont really know people by names if thats his real name. And yea, I pretty much still have to learn the properties of all the gases, due to the reason the charts / guides on the test spoke nothing specific about them, just rather if they were CFC, HCFC's, HCF's and things of that nature.

[The Weedman]

No problem runmc Anything to help out a good person like yourself :toast:
Walt is wrdzal

[jinu117]

You need to listen to Walt for sure about this. There is actually a reward for turning someone in who is dumping refrigerants into the atmosphere.

Refrigeration supply houses are a good source of gases.

Since I am brand new EPA certificant... actual penalty in US is:
up $27,500 per occurance per day or (and) up to 5 years on jail house.
Reward for turning in is up to $10,000
Not pretty, isn't it? :)
24/25. 24/25 :P I need to find out what I missed and why I missed it. I'd rather be 100% sure on what I am doing.

[Dementor]

Would anyone have some good readings that I could read to get to know everything alot better. I mean, I do know what the test taught me, but I want to know more. THe more the better of course. Like jinu said, I'd also rather be 100% sure on what I am doing and how everything operates.

[Dementor]

Awesome Job. 2 Parcels was sent from Mr. McCall to my location. I was not here to recieve it, so I tried to pick it up and it wasnt there. I have to pick it up tomorrow. Im guessing that was yours Runmc's... Awesome job, great delivery time :-p Youll definately be hearing from me from now on.