The guess what it is/going to be thread

[pythagoras]

Heres the first clue:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36579&stc=1

Walt, Reggie and Ron cant guess, as they already know ;)

One more pic later.

Regards

John.

[MeltedDuron]

i'm confuddled... *won't ask reggie, won't ask reggie, won't ask reggie, won't ask reggie, won't ask reggie, won't ask reggie* lol

[n00b 0f l337]

Wax or cheese?

[Waus-mod]

I think you are making dutch cheese, to eat when youre single or cascade is ready :P

http://www.dogga.org/images/travel/europe_2005/groningen/dutch_cheese.jpg

[pythagoras]

Hehehehe, no its not cheese, its wax. So whats it going to be?

Regards

John.

[mesyn191]

Is that paraffrin?

Read something about that somewheres but can't remember it now...

EDIT: I think I remember now, its used for casting molds, you making a new evaporator?

[Waus-mod]

Paraffin:

Uses

* Candlemaking
* Coatings for waxed paper or cloth.
* Preparing specimens for histology.
* Solid propellant for hybrid rockets
* Sealing jars, cans, and bottles
* Fuel for lamps and camping stoves
* Fire breathing
* In dermatology, as an emollient (moisturiser)

[pythagoras]

Its bees wax, collected it from the bees myself :fact: . But paraffin wax would do too.

Regards

John.

[pythagoras]

mesyn191 missed your edit ;) Correct its going to be used to mold a new evaporator :toast:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36581&stc=1

Regards

John.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

using it for insulation?
That or you're making a rocket-powered cascade.
EDIT: fine, beat me by <1 minute. cheater.

[Unknown_road]

silver evap nice :)

[mesyn191]

Blood_sorc: Bwhahahaha YOU PHAIL!!111one!!eleventy

pyth: so...you going to be sending me my prize in the form of cash or check?

;)

Nice looking evap. BTW, looks alot like chilly1's though, can you state whats different/new about it?

OMG I'm an idiot, I was wondering what the heck that brick of silvery looking stuff was...

Yea a silver evap would be crazy, any benefits of using silver over copper/alum.? Strength at ultra low temps? You making a triple or quad. stage cascade or something man?

[Unknown_road]

I think he's going to mold a chilly evap with silver

[pythagoras]

That is one of chilly1's, the evap wont look like that ;)

Regards

John.

[pythagoras]

One more pic of the silver:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36582&stc=1

Regards

John.

[mesyn191]

How much that brick cost you?

[pythagoras]

$80, but I have another two on the way that where $75 a piece. Thats not too bad really.

Regards

John.

[Waus-mod]

How much silver you need per block?

[MeltedDuron]

whoa, NICE!, you gonna make a production line? if so I can 'test' :p: one for ya. Also where'd ya get the bullion from mate?

[pythagoras]

I'm hoping for 10 troy oz, it would be a pain if it where slightly more than that :(

Regards

John.

[BB mods's]

I wana build a silver evap now :(

Awsome job bro,cant wait to see it finished :) if u could try and see if u can get a silver tube for the outside...be a shame to add copper to that,also have it tig welded not brazed..keep her sexy and clean m8^^

[pythagoras]

I'll be molding a silver sleeve for it ;) Just trying to work out the thickness though, as the elasticity of silver is greater than copper, I dont want the sleeve to start balooning :(

Regards

John.

[FUGGER]

heh, nice nice.

[Unknown_road]

I'll be molding a silver sleeve for it ;) Just trying to work out the thickness though, as the elasticity of silver is greater than copper, I dont want the sleeve to start balooning :(

Regards

John.

why a silver sleeve and not just a copper tube? A silver suction line doesn't contribute anything.

[pythagoras]

Your right unknown :) Its just for the esthetic value, even though it will be covered by insulation, it will just bug me knowing theres a copper sleeve under there :(

Regards

John.

[Unknown_road]

Your kidding right?

[pythagoras]

Your kidding right?

Hehehe, almost, and it will bug me, but the major reason is am not restricted to a certain copper pipe size and the amount of silver in the sleeve, cost wise is minimum, plus I can mold in the lugs for the mounting mechanism at the same time.

Regards

John.

[masterofpuppets]

Silver evap.. hmmmm. has that been done before?

[pythagoras]

This is Xtremesystems.org!!! Of course it hasnt :D

Regards

John.

[pythagoras]

Another picture quiz :D How will I be incorporating these into the evap, apart from brazing it with them, they are 55% silver brazing rods.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36591&stc=1

Regards

John.

[EMC2]

Pity the correct answer was so quick... after the "put captions on these pics" from one of your previous builds, this could have been fun :rofl: :p:

Peace :toast:

[pythagoras]

Dont worry my friend, I fully intend to send the pictures of me building this to gcg for captions :D And the quiz isnt over mate, look up ;)

Regards

John.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

you're making a 3 foot tall evap and those are rods that will be brazed (using themselves) into the base of the solid silver evap. That or you'll braze with them.

[pythagoras]

Not 3 feet tall, but you are on the right track ;)

Regards

John.

[gclg2000]

Dont worry my friend, I fully intend to send the pictures of me building this to gcg for captions :D And the quiz isnt over mate, look up ;)

Regards

John.

I'm already thirsting for blood.

[Ugly n Grey]

Are you buying the silver ingots from Ebay? or another source (the mint etc..)

[pythagoras]

From ebay, have you better contacts?

gclg2000----I'll make them worthy of your talents ;) For those that havnt seen what gclg2000 can do:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=43229&page=4&pp=25

Regards

John.

[Ugly n Grey]

LOL, no I asked as a friend of mine in the UK asked me if there were a better source.

[runmc]

Awesome thread John :clap: Too Cool.. :cool:

[wdrzal]

It has to be all silver so you guys can buy them for your wifes for christmas, when she gets tired of wearing it around her neck you can use it for phase change.

[wdrzal]

last time I checked silver was selling for 6.99 to 7.05 a ounce so your right in the ballpark

[gclg2000]

somewhere, someone has to sell silver rods in 1.5" diameters.....put those in the machine chilly1 get's his blocks made in..

viola?

[pythagoras]

But you can do so much more if you are not restricted by machining ;) Think about what those silver rods are for.

Regards

John.

[MeltedDuron]

this is gonna be great... can't wait to see the finished product! :woot: [off topic] pythag, why aren't you on aim? do AOL hate us? :p:[/off topic]

[EMC2]

Dont worry my friend, I fully intend to send the pictures of me building this to gcg for captions :D And the quiz isnt over mate, look up ;)

Regards

John.
See what happens when you step away in the middle of writing a post for some java... some pythy one sneaks one in on ya :p:

Either pins into the base or constructing channels I would postulate... (tho you're lucky you phrased that Q as "in your evap" :hehe: )

Can't wait to see both your creation and the pics. Hope it works out well for you mate :D Oh, and thanks for reminding me in a later comment of yours of a possible solution to a problem I was working on ;)

Peace :toast:

[pythagoras]

Well the rods will serve two purposes. One to create turbulance, but two and more importantly, they will go from the base through the spirals(well they wont be spirals in this case, but close) transmitting heat from the base of the evap through the refrigerant and thermally connecting to the base.

This way I can reduce the diameter of the supporting column, yet retain the mass by spreading it out across the base of the evap, which will have v shaped grooves in it radiating from the centre.

Regards

John.

emc2, dont be so cryptic :D what problem?

[kayl]

very nice. thats a cool idea pythagoras

[placebo]

some people have golden exhaust pipes... you will have a silver evap...

well, i think my vote goes towards the evap! ;)

awesome m8! :D

[hatemi]

The only problem I see with using silver ist that its hard to forge properly. I've heard that you usually get few micro pores that leak. I have red an article about making and using silver waterblock and they had some serious problems getting it to keep the water inside :(

[EMC2]

Turbulence was a given considering your background... know you appreciate the affect of turbulence and its friend, high Re, on the film coefficient mate ;)

Do you plan on using them as "trip wires" along the main surfaces as well?

Silly Q, but have you taken into account heat spreading values out from the core area? And the rods don't look that thick... thermal energy may not travel that far along their length. ??

Don't know which I'm looking forward to the most... your evap and results or your pics and everyones captions :lol: I detect drool coming from glc already :hehe:

Peace :toast:


Cryptic? Are you the kettle or the pot here my friend :p: Ok, a little less cryptic... it's about a method to fashion an idea into a reality ;) Just one of a half dozen or so things I usually have brewing (never enough time for everything, darn it!) Actually started coalescing a while back when looking at temp differentials, CPU to coolant, from one of Chilly's units that Michal was using that got me pondering a new way... then like all brainstorms, lightning struck (darn hair is still standing on end :bravo: )

[berkut]

How will you connect the core with the shell, TIG weld it ?

[mesyn191]

Are you going to be sand casting it or using the microwave forge?

Pics plz!

[wdrzal]

"Lost wax method" thats what the bees wax is for.

[Aviator747]

I assumed like wdrzal said "Lost wax method". Did you make a little blast furnace out of a paint can and a burner like the mini mongo? Or are you using the microwave method? Or just a acyetlene torch?

Please post some pics during your casting process. A video would be even sweeter! :)

[Frederik]

any update on this? I'm really interested in the outcome (holding the temps on load,...) of the silver evap... :toast:

[Aviator747]

Bumperoo! Hmm, must be a little cold in here, the thread got frozen waaaaay down here. :D

[pythagoras]

Two bars of silver disappeared somewhere between the states and the UK :mad:

As soon as paypal/ebay sort it out it will be back on track :D . I suspect the evap will take just over 10 oz, so I cant pour until I have a bit more than 10 to be on the safe side.

@ Berkut I was thinking to braze with 56% rods, tig better?

Regards

John.

P.s. I'll video the process ;)

[LostInSpace278]

I'm thinking if you have these silver brazing rods for more capacity and turbulence, what will happen to them when you start to braze the sleeve on the outside. Best case scenerio, maybe a lil droop?

I'm pretty sure the sleeve will hold just fine, since it is of purer quality, just thinking the rods inside won't make it..... something to ponder while waiting for more bullion.

[Tulatin]

What exactly is the cost of this silver evap block going to be, and what are the performance benifits? (besides the fact that it's freakin cool to have a silver evap!)

[pythagoras]

Thanks for that post Lost, it really got me thinking :( . But after a few hours research, I'm going to laser weld it to avoid that problem ;)

Regards

John.

[Aviator747]

You still haven't told us your melting method. Have you made your mould yet?

[Tulatin]

Moreover, if your mould seeps into the thing, how do you get it out?

[pythagoras]

Its lost wax, the evap is molded in wax, then silver rods pierce the evap down into the base. Next step is to pack all this with an "investment"----which is very much like plaster of paris.

The mould when set is then heated and the wax melts out, leaving the silver rods and a hollow where the wax was.

Next step is to pour the silver into the mold and then when hardened, you chip out the investment.

Then laser weld the sleeve over the evap.

Regards

John.

Sorry tulatin...........silver is probably around 10% better thermal conductor than copper, whether its cost effect depends on your point of view :D

[Tulatin]

Gah, not envisioning this. I'm meaning how do you remove the wax when it's dug into the ridges on the sides of the evap. By reading your method what i get so far is that the wax is melted and the impression is left in a plasteresque casing?

[pythagoras]

You got it! When the mold is heated the wax pours out/evaporates, there arent any pockets of wax surrounded by plaster that cant escape ;)

Regards

John.

[Aviator747]

You make a positive mould out of the wax which would be your evap. You then coat this mould with a substance like plaster of paris, like pythagoras said. You leave a hole in the top to pour you silver into. You then heat this wax/plaster type casing to melt the wax out. So now when all the wax melts out, you have a negative impression inside of the plaster type substance. You pour your silver into this negative impression. Leave it solidify. When it cools you break away the plaster type substance away from your newly casted silver evap. :D And then was it off to get rid of any mould remains.

[Tulatin]

I understand but can't visualize (that's a :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: when you think visually lol) I'll just wait for the pictorial ;)

[berkut]

Will you be able to braze silver ? Arent you afraid of melting the evaporator ?

[pythagoras]

It will be laser welded Berkut, I can rent one for £80 per week, but I'm hoping I kind find someone that can let me use one for about an hour.

Regards

John.

[wdrzal]

alloys usually melt at a lower temp then the base metal (silver) , jewlers and silver smiths braze(silver solder) pure silver all the time.

[Unknown_road]

alloys usually melt at a lower temp then the base metal (silver) , jewlers and silver smiths braze(silver solder) pure silver all the time.

how much % silver do they use? ie, can you use 40% or does it have to be 50-55% or something?

[Aviator747]

any updates?

[Cossey]

cant you just gas weld it with a very small flame (jewelers setup)?

[Comp-Freak]

Any updates? :)

[epion2985]

update? :stick:

[Aviator747]

This one die?

[MeltedDuron]

PICS!!! don't tell me you gave up, John! :stick:

[wdrzal]

anyone seen john around???

[MeltedDuron]

maybe he's asleep, or worse... :( (I hope he's asleep)

[Comp-Freak]

Don't think it's the "worse" option: Last Activity: Today 06:30 PM

[Thrilla]

Isn't silver like CAD$1/gram, or nickle silver CAD$0.75/gram?

[wdrzal]

Hey john, any progress on your silver evap?????? the ? about aluminium reminded me.

[pythagoras]

Still around, just very busy, which means I just get to moderate atm and not contribute much:( .

You wouldnt believe the equipment you need to build to cast an evap:eek: Its real cheap but time consuming, I'll get there though.

And I found a new use for the vac pump:D , you need to vac all the air out of the investment you use.

Regards

John.

Oh, did I forget the centrifugal casting machine;)

[Unknown_road]

Still around, just very busy, which means I just get to moderate atm and not contribute much:( .

You wouldnt believe the equipment you need to build to cast an evap:eek: Its real cheap but time consuming, I'll get there though.

And I found a new use for the vac pump:D , you need to vac all the air out of the investment you use.

Regards

John.

Oh, did I forget the centrifugal casting machine;)

I believe you ;) I casted a silver evap few weeks ago and it is indeed very hard to do. What kind of melting furnace are you going to use?

[pythagoras]

I bought a book that shows you how to build all the equipment necassary. The furnace is about the simplest, just some fire brick blocks and an electric heating element. Or you could use a torch, dont forget to coat the silver in borax( I think thats what its called, I dont have the book at hand)

Regards

John.

[Unknown_road]

yes it's called borax, it's a sort of flux for melting. I have a propane fired furnace for melting. Maybe I'll build an electric furnace in the future.

[[XC] moddolicous]

Bump. Any word pythagoras??

[the_new_guy]

bumpy

[Special_K]

if you do cast a silver evap, you should put it on your mantlepiece and say it was from the XS Awards 2006 or summat =p

or better yet

"pythagoras couldn't be here tonight to accept his award, but Special_K will say a few words on his behalf"

"erm, yeah, thanks everyone"

/me grabs award and runs

[Xeon th MG Pony]

I all ways used good ol coal blast furnaces and I use old fire ash as a mud to seal and fully insulate the furnace (you mix in plaster) I've managed to melt glass, copper, salt, steel, pretty much any thing the trick is using a heat scavenger to preheat the in coming air. FYI Stick with gas! way cheaper then electric!

Lost investment casting is cheap and you can get incredible detail and smooth ness out of it.

If you have a back yard my personal recommendation if you plan to do this lots use a coal fired blast, to make a medium sized one takes allot of time but well worth it on many levels, and watch your air ducting as if it is too close to the flame front it too will be consumed as fuel! Make your self an Aluminium Vacuum chamber with a heater element (It really helps to be able to keep a steady temp within the chamber and speed curing up a tad for the rush jobs. Naturally though the slower you allow it to set the better and less warping you'll have.

Borax is one fluxing agent, there are a host of them pending on what you want. Pressed flour method gets good resolution as well but can get messy, need a hydraulic press for best results and it's more for single plate type castings.

and last but not at all the least is if you ever plan on doing aluminium get a good pyrometer you'll really be thank full you got one! they make live sooo much easier!

sorry to bore you all with my casting venturs but I hope it may help you with yours.

[Unknown_road]

for silver melting you don't need al that fancy things the melting point ain't that high. I use a simple propane torch to melt silver and it works fast and very clean. a pic of my silver adventures:

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Hmmm ya know a drop forge die would be fun :D and drop forg the evap base.

[Jort]

c'mon jurgen send me that evap so i can test it:)

[epion2985]

You know for good contact you would have to take that crud and dirty silved of the surface, which ussualy intails machining as it pretty imposibble to do it any other way, alot of tight corners there. My point is you might as well machine the damn thing from the start. Silver is cheap anyway. I bet matrial cost vs copper if you were to machine the core of chilly1's evap from silver vs copper it would cost maybe $30 more, its a joke considering the evap costs about $200. Cut the crap already and machine it from a peace of silver pipe so we can all have a beer and go home....

[Unknown_road]

acid or hydrogen-peroxide will clean it up nicely, don't need any machining for that. only the base needs to be sanded or milled in a lathe. you can't buy silver in that many shapes as you can with copper. almost all silver is bought into flat bar shape, you would waste 100$ on material or something when milling such a thing. Casting is the way to go with silver.

[epion2985]

acid or hydrogen-peroxide will clean it up nicely, don't need any machining for that. only the base needs to be sanded or milled in a lathe.

you can't buy silver in that many shapes as you can with copper. almost all silver is bought into flat bar shape, you would waste 100$ on material or something when milling such a thing. Casting is the way to go with silver.

oh yeah that sounds like fun........

You can buy silver in rod shape, and that is the only thing you needs as you only need to make the core silver. I know you can buy it in rod shape because when I worked at a machine shop I have worked with it. And the waste from the rod will be minimal as you start with a small peace anyway, by the design of chilly1's evap and lathe off maybe 20-30%. Waste cost should be no more then $10-$20.

[Unknown_road]

1 troy ounce(31 gram) costs about 15 dollars. I think if you order silver in rod shape someone will cast it for you in rod shape :D It's not a shape metal suppliers have lying around in the Netherlands.

I'm just saying casting works great, the dirty stuff is removed in seconds, you don't need expensive machinery, it's fun!

[epion2985]

Its cheaper if you buy it in quantity I think, could be wrong.

I guess I am just not a fan of casting, cant really do sharp edges and complex designs. Everything is iffy with casting. Only casting that is a good casting in my book is the one that has been machined to final form :)

But you are right it is cheaper. All the endges come out round though, pisses me off, I hate imperfection, drives me nuts. Thats why I love machining to death.

casting is the way to go sometimes dont get me wrong.

Although you know the side of the core that meets the shell in chilly's evap has to be smooth and precise. Hand work wont cut it there, that part would have to be lathed nicely. Plus all the work that would go in to cleaning and preping the casting, thats alot of time, and thats often worth alot more then silver.

[Extera]

just a thought:

Ýou can also cast the silver in a rod shape and then machine it.
the silver you lose during machine works can be catched up for casting the next evap.

[wdrzal]

I guess I am just not a fan of casting, cant really do sharp edges and complex designs. Everything is iffy with casting. Only casting that is a good casting in my book is the one that has been machined to final form :)

. huh most real complex parts are cast. I bet most people would be surprised . machineing is relitivly a long process on complex shapes.

[Unknown_road]

just a thought:

Ýou can also cast the silver in a rod shape and then machine it.
the silver you lose during machine works can be catched up for casting the next evap.

the miling scrap will probably contain dust and particles that aren't silver (maybe even miling oil) , I do everything to keep it 24karat silver so heat conduction stays optimal. So I'd rather not use scrap silver.

@epion: the things silversmiths can cast with lost wax methode is crazy. look at this : http://www.vshgieterij.nl/pages/halfprod.htm these come straight out of the oven.

[wdrzal]

http://www.diecasting.org/faq/

above is die casting and below is is all types. powdered metal is widely used now.

http://www.cypressindustrial.com/

[Mr. Tinker]

Yes, I'd say you'd be better off buying some proper casting silver. Most of the non-silver metals burn away int he casting process. Here's a source I've used:

http://www.riogrande.com/

but you must have the catalogue, which costs $10. Get with the now, Rio Grande.

[Unknown_road]

non-silver metals don't burn away they'll get part of the alloy.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Casting is the way to go for complex parts and fine tuning is don via mill.

[epion2985]

Casting is the way to go for complex parts and fine tuning is don via mill.

my thoughts exactly.

There is some fine casting above, thats is very nice for artwork I dont know about pressision fitting parts though, I dought those are cast and used straight. In my expirience thy are usually machined to final fitting specs. I could be wrong, Walt has alot more expirience, but thats juat the trend I have noticed.

[mesyn191]

Anyone here tried microwave casting with silver?

http://home.c2i.net/metaphor/mvpage.html

[epion2985]

I thought microwaves dont like metals as they shoot sparks and electric arcs left and right when you put something metal in one. I cant imagine thats good for the microwave.

[Unknown_road]

you don't directly heat up the metal but you heat up a substance around the metal, as long as the metal your heating is 1 solid chunk without pointy thingy's the metal won't spark though I would recommend using an old microwave. But I don't really know why you would want to use a microwave. A normal furnace it build just as easily.

[wdrzal]

hard coal (anthracite)works great. build a forge with a blower and get a clay crucibul, you can even melt steel.

[Mr. Tinker]

The zinc burns away. That's part of why it's hard to re-use casting silver.

[Special_K]

wow @ microwave casting =D


...But I don't really know why you would want to use a microwave. A normal furnace it build just as easily.

Who doesn't have a microwave these days? How much would it cost to make a furnace?


Research is nearing completion on a system that will allow the melting and casting of bronze, silver, gold, and even cast iron, using an unmodified domestic microwave oven as the energy source.
A potential foundry in every kitchen !!

if they can melt and cast iron (1500C/2800F), they can do copper(1100C/2000F) - imagine the intricate evap designs you could make out of a wax mould, and then cast it in copper/silver/whatever =D

*edit* further reading shows you need some ceramic material to insulate your microwave and mould, not sure on costs for that though?