Some expert diagnoses needed.

[jinu117]

Did few quick test on this... not so cool single phase.
Compressor: Americold 1/3 HP R404 unit.
Gas: some mixture... I have NO idea.
Condensor: Err... orginal mach compressor size... gotta laugh at this one... at least there is 100CFM pulling air through it... noisey bugger.
Few things of note... suction line is about 2.5 ft long with no P groove to catch refrigerant, no loop to prevent vibration transmission.
Cap tubing (not sure about ID but it is about 56" long... don't think I haven't heard anything this short).
When unit is in idle, high side pressure reads 210 PSI, temp is 89f at highside (no low side as there is no valve on it really - or would service valve work? if so it is almost 0 psi) when unit is underload, high side presure goes to 240 PSI (!!!) temp is at 93-94f and was steadly going up when i just shut it down in disgust. Service port was showing some vacuum amount...
What are your daignosis on situation. Here is few things I came up with but I would like to hear from few more experts.

1) Restriction in line due to contamination or just.... bad plumbing. Suspect is cap line atm as it is wrapped around in VERY unconvetional way.... (oh and cap line is outside of suction line....)
2) Liquid slugging -> but than I didn't hear anything unusual..
3) Insufficient condensor (there is no desuperheater in this one) letting gas flow through to evap instead of liquid which will cut down on performance.

I've got many modifications that are planned.... and hopefully I am not missing anything experts can recommend at this point.

1) Bigger condensor with shroud and slower turning fan. (this new condensor should be much more efficient due to size and fin density which would be less restrictive)
2) Desuperheater
3) Subcooling by putting portion of cap tubing in suction line. (thinking about sticking to .028 cap tubing. I think this individual put much thicker cap tubing but I am not sure if depressurization is getting done properly with such short line with the given thickness... what legnth should I start off from?)
4) I might redo the whole evap with diff evap. Not too kin on working on used evap that I am not comfortable with at the moment. Well, either way, I will sweat it out and see how it is made in my spare time ;P

Thanks in advance :)

[wdrzal]

sounds perfect to me whats the problem?

[jinu117]

I just wanted to find out what's wrong with the unit (critically per say) at current stage :P I am just making wild guesses based on what I've learned in past one week for specific trouble shooting which is not even applicable on this one as I have no idea what gas is in it -_-;

[kayl]

please dont start bad stuff here hey :D

how about start from scratch all new parts and aim to build a better one than that unit.
then place them side by side and see which one is betta :stick:

[eshbach]

what are your evap temperatures and how do they change with the pressure increase?

[jinu117]

Evap temp whilst unloaded will get down to -50c with insulation intact and attached to mobo, turn the x2 on at 1.68v ish and there is the temp settles around -41c idle, -24-22c dual priming. Pressure increases -> temp goes up (well quite obviously due to heatload.... but fluctuation of close to 30c from unloaded to loaded just isn't.....:P)
Kayl, the plan to make another unit is in line but I need to get some decent practice on it first :P And since this unit behaves so much like vapo LS stock... and I do have vapo LS stock, I can just compare to my vapo LS for future comparison hehe :P

[kayl]

what temps does it sit at while benching 3dmark2001 say in the last test??
prime can be a bit savage for temp testing.

[eshbach]

so you have -24C load with a dual core cpu on a stock mach1 condensor and this is bad? :stick:

also, you say you might put the captube inside the suction line, but i think it's actually better for subcooling if you wrap the cap tube around the outside of the suction line down near the evap.

[jinu117]

so you have -24C load with a dual core cpu on a stock mach1 condensor and this is bad? :stick:

also, you say you might put the captube inside the suction line, but i think it's actually better for subcooling if you wrap the cap tube around the outside of the suction line down near the evap.

Evap temp pal. -24c on loaded bios would be awesome :) (and FYI, stock vapo LS evap temp does get lower than that tested at same point)
Eshbach, stop trying to defend your pal there. I am trying to solve this problem myself and last thing I need right now is someone to barge in and say very unproductive things right now for me. I was disassembling machine today and found bunch of SOLDER joints. Yes SOLDER JOINTS, not braze points. Scarey thing was, it was done on discharge line too! (I was hoping not too see discharge line with solders on it) Well at least made it easier for me to disassemble the whole thing I guess. When a system has is hitting over 240 PSI and solder joints are used... (or is solder joints safe enough? I never see people soldering block really now a day though)

Back being productive mindset...
1) What would be best way to disassemble the already brazed block? Shove cap line in with nitrogen slowly pumping out to reduce any further contamination?
2) When vacuum pumped the system, the clean oil got decently dirty (and this unit was never exposed to atmosphere per say.... I was very cautions not to let that happen in case there are contamination, etc. What does that signify?

[eshbach]

Evap temp pal. -24c on loaded bios would be awesome :) (and FYI, stock vapo LS evap temp does get lower than that tested at same point)
Eshbach, stop trying to defend your pal there. I am trying to solve this problem myself and last thing I need right now is someone to barge in and say very unproductive things right now for me. I was disassembling machine today and found bunch of SOLDER joints. Yes SOLDER JOINTS, not braze points. Scarey thing was, it was done on discharge line too! (I was hoping not too see discharge line with solders on it) Well at least made it easier for me to disassemble the whole thing I guess. When a system has is hitting over 240 PSI and solder joints are used... (or is solder joints safe enough? I never see people soldering block really now a day though)

Back being productive mindset...
1) What would be best way to disassemble the already brazed block? Shove cap line in with nitrogen slowly pumping out to reduce any further contamination?
2) When vacuum pumped the system, the clean oil got decently dirty (and this unit was never exposed to atmosphere per say.... I was very cautions not to let that happen in case there are contamination, etc. What does that signify?

ok, i'll let you decide what's good and what's not... but yes, solder joints are fine.

[wdrzal]

solder joints are not Fine, I tried to warn people about this ,while solder joints won't blow apart. in time the thermal shock from expansion and contraction will create a sprinkler system. especially at the low temps . no where is soft solder commonly used in the refrigeration industry.

[Gray Mole]

Are you sure they're all soldered on the discharge? I'm using 55% silver braze and it looks a lot like solder when it's a nice clean braze.

Solder on the suction I'd have said there's nothing wrong with, and even though a braze is a stronger joint, you use less heat and less stress on the copper I suppose.

Solder on the discharge seems inadequate to me, but at the same time, water pressure on soldered pipework is rated to 25bar and higher, and my Father (Plumbing engineer, etc) asked me why I'd bother brazing when the temps aren't overly high and solder rates high enough to handle any pressure I'd be working with. I couldn't really fault anyone who'd solder a joint myself, though with the silver braze I'm finding it scarcely more work than soldering the way it flows in so nicely. Makes a lot of sense though, Walt. I know that solder can handle the pressure and temperature, but I don't really know what kind of resistance to thermal expansion it has.

I would imagine the discoloration in the oil would be from the brazing if nothing else. The inside of pipes will carbon up I'd have thought.

Why would you want to completely strip the block though?

Gray

[jinu117]

Thanks for informative information.
I am VERY sure it is solder job as standard mapp torch by Bernz-o-matic took it out in about 4 seconds of heating it up... didn't get to see any glowing copper at all... I've done numerous solder job and can tell what is solder and what is not (new only at brazing really :P)
I also thought solder jobs are not sutiable for vibrational environment unless soemthing very special is used (which gets to effort of brazing looking at working temp of it with silver brazing rods)
As for oil coloration, I just don't know ( <<< NOOB). I thought putting slow moving nitrogen to take out oxidization while brazing or soldering would keep inside of tube clean? Maybe such isn't the case. I will have to replace all tubing I guess.
As for striping the block, since I am thinking about subcooling inside suction line, the current location of hole is not what really suitable for it (I guess I could use it and punch hole through suction line to get cap tubing in.... still thinking about it only). Another thing is I would like to see how this evap is being utilized and cleaness of evap condition after looking at oil color... Since I do have all tools now, I might play with few different evap to find ofr myself which one suits my need the best :)

[Gray Mole]

Oh yeah...

When you tapped into the system, you'll have taken out some of the gas into the lines too, so what you got to read on your guages aren't necessarily what they were before you did. Depending on the size of the lines you use, you could take out almost all of the gas filling them depending on the system.

I think you'd do really well to ask the guy who built it about it. I know you've got some not so great history on this unit, but it would really help you out knowing how it's tuned, what captube, what config of evap head etc and you could save some time knowing more about it.

Considering what you DO have though...

The compressor is enough to give good results.
The evap head, if a decent design and not blocked/poorly made will work well enough, or you can spend ££ and change it.
Redo your captube and you'll know what your load is.
Add a few coils, configure the line the way you think it should be, and add a bigger or additional condensor to make sure it'll do the job for the gas you want.
Use 507 or 402a and you'll know the gas and know how it'll perform.

That's about it. You don't need to do too much to make the unit perform well. 3 factors I could see giving you higher temps: Captube short=high load but higher temp. Condensor small and efficiency low. Gas used was poor blend or not high spec.

Other possibilities, but that's what I'd be looking at. Just put it back together the way 90% of 'em are done here and you'll probs have a perfectly funtional rig you're happy with. Finding out what was wrong might not be possible as such, but making it right seems pretty easy.

Gray

[Gray Mole]

LOL I wish I lived closer to ya, I'd take that evap head off your hands for cheap hehehehe

I haven't got the tools to make an evap though I do have what I need to make up a 'Maze4 mod' head here, so might do that for a play, I don't have drill presses etc to do it right. I'm likely to get a chilly1 head when I'm ready for the Cascade's head. May as well do it right :D

I hope you get it sorted out. I think I know who made the unit, and if it's one of 'His' evap heads they seem to work really well on other systems. I'm sorry you're the one to get the bad luck :(

I don't know about 'having' to replace all the pipework if it's clean. You can buy coil cleaner from fridge tech suppliers that should clean things up if you'd rather re-use the framework that's there. Just ask the supplier what works best for a cleaner.

Gray

[hatemi]

PC ICE usees sof plumbing solder on his units. He also uses very short capillary lines (150cm of 0.031 0r 0.041) and weird gas mixtures. His units seem to preform very well and I have yet to hear of any real failures or such. His methods are unconventional but seem to work.

That said, I would personally never use soft solder on any thing. It is actually harder to work with than PhosCo and it DOES not have the strength to survive with hight temperature changes.

[hatemi]

Oh and 240PSI isnt that high preasure under load.

[jinu117]

I am thinking of sticking to just straight R404 for a while (due to cost of gas mixing... trying to recover mixed gas in US could be VERY expensive experiment due to disposal cost which is as much as gas cost... -_-) I don't think I need to worry about TOO high of pressure really (crossing my finger). 402a was thought about shortly but I got this wierd idea that 404a might be better for higher capacity unit in general since it is less heavy... I need to learn more about gases once I am done with 404a :P

[jinu117]

Another thing I found out and wondering if it would be better to leave it same way or remove it... dischargeline on this compressor seems to be 3/8 or 5/16" There is 1/4" hose basically shoved into the line... is it good idea to restrict line like this? I think not but not sure what kind of impact it really has on system.

[wdrzal]

Are you sure they're all soldered on the discharge? I'm using 55% silver braze and it looks a lot like solder when it's a nice clean braze.

Solder on the suction I'd have said there's nothing wrong with, and even though a braze is a stronger joint, you use less heat and less stress on the copper I suppose.

Solder on the discharge seems inadequate to me, but at the same time, water pressure on soldered pipework is rated to 25bar and higher, and my Father (Plumbing engineer, etc) asked me why I'd bother brazing when the temps aren't overly high and solder rates high enough to handle any pressure I'd be working with. I couldn't really fault anyone who'd solder a joint myself, though with the silver braze I'm finding it scarcely more work than soldering the way it flows in so nicely. Makes a lot of sense though, Walt. I know that solder can handle the pressure and temperature, but I don't really know what kind of resistance to thermal expansion it has.

I would imagine the discoloration in the oil would be from the brazing if nothing else. The inside of pipes will carbon up I'd have thought.

Why would you want to completely strip the block though?

Gray

soft solder dose not have the tensil strength ,all the stuff about damanging the copper was started by someone on the forum and is BS.

[chilly1]

Harris #8 (Low melt point solder)does have the tensil strength for suction lines and will withstand the system static pressure and temperures and it is rated for "Normal" refrigeration systems. So -50 to 60C and harris is compatiable and will hold, it is also rated for discharge pressures. I do not use is because from personal experiance I have seen where it has mirgated from use ofer time. I use 15% for most joints and 45% silversolder and White floride based paste flux fo rthe blocks and stainless flex lines.


I would lengthen the capillary to about 90 inches and charge so that unloaded you have about 0 to 2" Hg and then retest the load. Sounds more like you have a piece of solder in the block or suction line, not uncommon in soldered systems..
THe condensers need to be sized to the evap load plus the load created by the compressor motor.
SO post up some pics when you start to rebuild the unit.. I am sure everyone will follow along on your build.

[expansionvalve]

no where is soft solder commonly used in the refrigeration industry.

That is very much debatable!
I think we have had this topic arise before.
I have no idea where you are located but here in uk I see hundreds and hundreds of units running soft solder for suction and discharge lines on 134 and 404a refrigerants.

Saying that though in warmer climates say 30C+, I would think it's not the best idea to use soft but in the cooler I have never or very rarely had problems with it if the joints have been soldered correctly.

[Unknown_road]

Harris #8 (Low melt point solder)does have the tensil strength for suction lines and will withstand the system static pressure and temperures and it is rated for "Normal" refrigeration systems. So -50 to 60C and harris is compatiable and will hold, it is also rated for discharge pressures. I do not use is because from personal experiance I have seen where it has mirgated from use ofer time. I use 15% for most joints and 45% silversolder and White floride based paste flux fo rthe blocks and stainless flex lines.


I would lengthen the capillary to about 90 inches and charge so that unloaded you have about 0 to 2" Hg and then retest the load. Sounds more like you have a piece of solder in the block or suction line, not uncommon in soldered systems..
THe condensers need to be sized to the evap load plus the load created by the compressor motor.
SO post up some pics when you start to rebuild the unit.. I am sure everyone will follow along on your build.

but what if something like condensor fan fails, the pressure can rise very high very quickly, a soft solderd joint would probably crack right open.

[expansionvalve]

High pressure safety switch would very much reduce the risk of that.

[runmc]

Thank you guys.. ;)

Edited by pythagoras: Since the name has been deleted from these post I thought I would remove it here too, as if I didnt it would defeat the whole purpose of the exercise, hope you dont mind Ron.

[wdrzal]

your right runmc, I souldn't have mention any names .I Apolgize

[jinu117]

I've been very carefull not to mention name. I suggest everyone who put name in there just to edit the post. People who knew knows. People who don't doesn't have to learn I guess :) BTW, harris #8 eh? Might use it myself for suction line "brazing" if I have problem with Silv 15... Going to try to diassemble evap for practice at least hehe... I don't think it is really possible after doing quite a few sweating but worth a try anyway :)

[wdrzal]

since you can't soft solder the stainless flex line everyone uses, it makes no sense to braze one part of the loop and soft solder the others. I say stick with the tried and tested brazing.

[jinu117]

Hmmm... whats you guy's opinion on bloackade from harris? The shop gave me sample to try and I just tried it out and it seems to be even easier to use than Silv 15 (marginally so). Need to use bit more than stay silv but very easy to see if I made the right job or not :P

[chilly1]

The blockade sucks

[jinu117]

The blockade sucks

Is it not strong enough? Do i need to use much more? Or just flows too fast? I am still learning as you can see :)
PS) The evap disassembly was not good lol. Had some nice ideas but there ias no way I can heat up whole evap well enough to pull it out.... time to get some dremel in to see what evap is used...

[wdrzal]

The blockade sucks


that says it, I havn't had any problems with copper/phos rods on cu to cu ,and 15% silver with flux on every thing else. I have 45% silver rods that flow great but don't fill well and for the most part that high silver isn't needed.

[chilly1]

stainless to copper 45% is the best though But yet it is thin.

[runmc]

Let us see some pictures. :D

I would like to see the unit and what you are discribing. Please :)

[jinu117]

Gotta love IE... finished up posting things up and boom... it just went crashing on me....
http://webpages.charter.net/jinwpark/PhaseChange/OldUnit/
has old unit.... some trouble disassembling as solders just dripped at places, etc (which I used my electric solder suction tool to take out)
Tubing was stuck at discharge port of compressor which I bolted down with screw and took out with heat on it.
One thing I don't like really was how captubing was bunched up once I opened the insulation. Ouch.
http://webpages.charter.net/jinwpark/PhaseChange/ToysTools/
has toys and tools... :) Waiting to get my recovery unit AGAIN... as previous one didn't do good job at all and was returned. Vacuum pump is FisherScientific Maximus... very quieter than what I thought it would be like. Not sure how good of vacuum it pulls until I get my vacuum gague in my mail box (yes been busy on e-bay). One thing I need advice on is that when you vacuum system and than charging, what would be best method to do so without releasing much gas, taking atmosphere in, etc? I mean, it is recommened to take out schreder valve when vacumming right? How am I supposed to trap things without is beyond me at this point :P

http://webpages.charter.net/jinwpark/PhaseChange/MyOwn/

Pretty empty as I am still laying things out and preparing... :)

Few things about this compressor: Suction seems to be bit larger ID than 3/8 tubing. Almost to 1/2 tubing. What should I use for suction line diameter?
Discharge and service ports are 3/8 tubing sized.
What kind of impact would it have to restrict the discharge tubing by 1/4 (which was what it had). What kind of impact it would have to reduce suction to say 1/4? (I would think smaller suction line isn't the best idea from my H2O experiments but not sure on discharge line as you do want highly pressurized hot vapor after all...)

[runmc]

How long have you had this unit?
Is this how you got the unit?
Have you made any changes to it before you took this picture?

[jinu117]

How long have you had this unit?
Is this how you got the unit?
Have you made any changes to it before you took this picture?

less than couple of weeks. Only change made was taking off insulation after some final testing to see what temp it settles down at, etc so I know exactly what I am aiming for (better of course)
BTW, is there something REALLY wrong with that pic? I am wondering why you are asking runmc... (bit apprehensive)

[jinu117]

Well my wife decided to take my digicam and I have no idea where her's is... (reason she took mine) so no picture update of progress.
I just finished making shroud for big condensor I got recently (very nice design I think, big, 3 row, less dense fan -> which usually works well with lower airflow fan vs very dense fins used in from my water cooling experiences).
Also drained oil out of the compressor and found color to be bit yellowish but looking fine (thank god, I was worried about compressor damage with this system just in case... like burn out, etc) It was a little over 8fl oz. Quick question, when I refill system, should I add a little more than this to acommodate for potentially lost oil somewhere in loop? If so, by how much?
I will post some work in progress later when she comes back.

Where here it is...
http://webpages.charter.net/jinwpark/PhaseChange/MyOwn/001-CompressorOilDraining.JPG
Drained the compressor of oil... does oil look okay? a little over 8oz. How much should I put in when I am ready to assemble?
http://webpages.charter.net/jinwpark/PhaseChange/MyOwn/002-CompressorSpec.JPG
Since I can't find out spec of compressor, here is about all info I have available.
http://webpages.charter.net/jinwpark/PhaseChange/MyOwn/003-Condensor.JPG
Condensor I grabbed. Might use something else... but who knows :P
Right side is test shroud sizing done by extremely thin aluminum sheet.
http://webpages.charter.net/jinwpark/PhaseChange/MyOwn/004-Condensor%20Shrouded.JPG
I used something called nut-rivet to be able to use 6-32 machine screw to mount fans. 2 of the holes, I accidentally drilled too large and can't use this... at least this 2 should be able to hold fan steady.
http://webpages.charter.net/jinwpark/PhaseChange/MyOwn/005-Condensor%20Armaflexed.JPG
Armaflexed shroud to make it less vibration noise prone and also make sure fan has good seal to shroud.

[wdrzal]

why did you drain oil? that insulation like that is going to restrict airflow on 50% of condensor or is it set off from the face?

[jinu117]

condensor actually had about 3/4" of space so I made shroud to accomodate 120mm fans :P Could have given more space but chose not to since fins are not too restrictive. (kind of following what PA 160 radiator design was like)
Is it bad idea to just drain oil? I will fill new one in when I am about to assemble things :P
Oh and of course, the other side of condenser is bare... insulation was just put on top of shroud I made... :P I don't trust this sheet metal to be non-vibrating when fans are on it. This is meant to be pull operation...

[wdrzal]

well if you would have just sealed the compressor up the oil would have been ok. I don't know what oil that is but some are expensive.

[jinu117]

well if you would have just sealed the compressor up the oil would have been ok. I don't know what oil that is but some are expensive.

Ahhhh.... I just couldn't trust the integrity of oil with all I've been through so decided to drain it. I already have pretty big bottle of oil sitting there... more than enough for refill... do I put same amount I got out or a little more to accomodate what might have settled around pipings? :P

[wdrzal]

the only way to be sure is look up the manufactuers spec. if you cant find it just put back in the amount you took out.a extra ounce or two won't hurt.

[chilly1]

What type of refrigerant are you planning to use...
For 404 use only poltolester oil. sus100 is best
THe polyolester is als0 fine for other refrigerants but you may use mineral oil with R22,R402.
ZEROL (Aklybenzine is also fine will all but the HFC refrigerants like R507,R404,R134A Etc.
Line sizes are dependant upon system temperatures and capacity, at the load you will have a smaller condenser and lines are acceptable, The Suction line of 5/16 is as small as I would go although 1/4 ID line of 3 feet is the smallest that will work. The discharge line can be assmallas 3/16 I would not go any smaller that that.

[jinu117]

R404a :) Yes I do have POE handy. I really do appreciate the tips on tubing selection. You are mentioning OD of tubings I hope btw... would hate to think of 5/16 ID tubing lol.

[jinu117]

Phew, came back from Vegas around 6am and slept a little woke up and finished this one up. Now pressure testing... first few minutes were okay so going for overnight (I still don't have my digital vacuum gauge yet anyway lol, somewhere in USPS heaven) man... brazing in tight spot with that mapp was not easy at all and it shows (especially on many joints that didn't have proper match in first place or gaps to be filled)... I need better swaging tool and some more practice. Since I couldn't make it pretty I tried to make it at least leak proof... (lots of silv 15 bye bye).
Flexible suction tube acts as part of P-loop and since lian-li v2000 is reversed, that is the right way for block to come out of :P

http://webpages.charter.net/jinwpark/PhaseChange/MyOwn/006-PressureTesting.JPG

Hopefully my digital vacuum gauge comes in tomorrow and I can start doing triple evacing system :)

[Ssilencer]

You had being getting a lot of toys lately :D
I dont like the the way you put that desuperheater, as you know the desuperheater just help you to use a less noisy fan on the condensor, but your condensor is big enough to work without it and you are using just r404. The position you put the coil is not good for the system; invert the flow on the desuperheater, or just take it out (better take it out, IMHO).
Is that thermoshrink over the flex hose and cap tube? I like it :)

[Ssilencer]

but what if something like condensor fan fails, the pressure can rise very high very quickly, a soft solderd joint would probably crack right open.

Hey, that's another good use on the froster controllers, pressure can rise, evap temp will rise, froster will shut it down and nothing will crack! lol
Sorry for the OT :slapass:

[Gray Mole]

http://webpages.charter.net/jinwpark/PhaseChange/MyOwn/006-PressureTesting.JPG




2 things I'm wondering about.

Your suction line comes out the top and kind of stays there. Wouldn't it be a good idea to run it downward as it comes off the compressor, around the compressor, then back up? Just to prevent liquid coming back to the compressor? You've got a little bit of a 'trap' built in, but not much.

I kind of agree with Ssilencer as well, but only to see the discharge coil inverted. Even though it's 404 you're using, once you've got one you could change to something like 402a later and already have a coil there without having to make that change in the tubing.

Gray

[jinu117]

Heh, thanks for comments.
Desuperheater I put it there so I can run the fan at very low speed (hopefully)... :P As well as potential gas change. What do you guys use for those ultra low temps now a day? This particular compressor shouldn't have much problem handling single stage most likely...
So did I put coil in wrong way? Now that I think about it... it will be hard for oil to travel up (isn't it better that way though?) and potentially liquid forming in desuperheater and dripping backward....(is this the problem?)...... something I didn't think about for sure. maybe I will fail over night leak testing heh.

Actually the P loop starts from the other side of picutre and it is on the flexible suction line. At least I did think about that :P Cpu basically will be sitting only about an 2-3 up of where you see the compressor in my lian-li v-2000 case. (funky case in many ways...)

I guess if the liquid formation is the problem than I should look into reorganizing my design a bit and leak test again... :) Maybe I should rebraze that part which I didn't like too much to begin with anyway (sloppiest job right at the T with highside...)

[Ssilencer]

I think the condensor is big enough for r402 too :D
Jinu117, finish the system in the way you did it, then try it, take notes on pressures and temps, disarm it and redo it again, it is the better way to learn, I wish I have all the toys you have there.

[jinu117]

I think the condensor is big enough for r402 too :D
Jinu117, finish the system in the way you did it, then try it, take notes on pressures and temps, disarm it and redo it again, it is the better way to learn, I wish I have all the toys you have there.

Errr, you don't have a toy I have? I doubt it lol.... This condensor unfortunately isn't really cheap as you can see from construction. It runs in cost of some decent used compressor -_- or real small brand new ones... Thing is, I actually planned on cap tubing experiment for next few days if it doesn't leak. Wouldn't taking out desuperheater afterwards kind of destroy whole experiment data? :P

[s7e9h3n]

....402a was thought about shortly but I got this wierd idea that 404a might be better for higher capacity unit in general since it is less heavy... I need to learn more about gases once I am done with 404a :P
AFAIK, 402 has greater capacity that 404a and even 507 ;) The oil that comes out of your compressor will almost always be yellowish. Getting the oil out is the easy part - putting it back in without an oil injector is the hard part (well at least it was for me). I just basically poured in the oil little by little through the suction port on my compressor and it took forever :p: One last thing - you're probably better off winding the cap tube around the suction line like you did as it allows for better subcooling due to the contact area.

[Gray Mole]

If you pour the oil into a funnel in the suction line, and use a hand vac pump on the discharge to suck it in, it flows into the pump quite easily.

You could just get a clear tube and use your mouth and that works fine too, but I have a mityvac pump here so I used that. You don't want to use a power vac pump or anything like that, just a little gentle pull is enough to make it flow in nicely :)

There's nothing really wrong with the way you put the suction line in, you DO have some u-bend in it, it's just I like seeing a good size trap to be 100% that there's no liquid flowing back if you're not loaded or overcharged or something.

Gray

[s7e9h3n]

If you pour the oil into a funnel in the suction line, and use a hand vac pump on the discharge to suck it in, it flows into the pump quite easily.

You could just get a clear tube and use your mouth and that works fine too, but I have a mityvac pump here so I used that. You don't want to use a power vac pump or anything like that, just a little gentle pull is enough to make it flow in nicely :)

Ahhh...nice suggestion. I was wondering if it was possible to do that faster without waiting for the oil to get "gulped" down by the compressor. Next time it should be a lot easier. Thanks! :toast:

[jinu117]

Was wondering same thing yesterday... :P So... my idea of using juicer for turkey wasn't too good lol. Didn't want to take out service port after I accidentally brazed it in so took core out shoved juicer thing for turkey and squeezed in :P Anyway, leak testing was good but I am redoing the desuper heater again with few better t-joint I got from RSD today and (should be better looking job :P

[jinu117]

Well that didn't take long. pressure testing it again... Out of camera again so using my treo 650 lol.

Brazing definitely looks better on t-joins now. I used something called heatblock this time to experiment and it works very GOOD. Probably good for tight spots where it is hard to shove towels in or right on delicate parts for brazing. This time I used mapp oxy torch instead of just using mapp since there were some tight spots.

Now, tell me what I did wrong... :P

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36866

[Ssilencer]

Please, take a pic from the other side

[jinu117]

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36869&stc=1

From the other side :)

[runmc]

Well I'll have to say that looks alot better than it did my friend - nice repair job. :D

[Ssilencer]

Yeap, looks good now :up:

[jinu117]

heh, did quick testing and got it down to -57c with r404a, obviously captubing was too long... (knew it but practice anyway... :P) Couldn't hold load at low enough temp lol.
Cut it down and took out desuperheater and vacumming again. Checked desuperheater temp at start and end, etc and yes you are absoultely right I have more than sufficient enough of cooling on my condensor :)
I can't believe I am going through 3 different tries in one run... heh
Asked RSD for few danfoss compressor and they sell it by 8... and ones I asked were like $220-230 a piece lol. Think I need to save up a little before getting them. Is it okay to vapo charge r404 after initial liquid charge? I am having hard time getting the right amount in just using liquid charging... :P

[s7e9h3n]

Wow....it took you what? 2 weeks to learn all this....quite impressive :toast: It took me 2 years to even think of starting.... :p:

[jinu117]

Wow....it took you what? 2 weeks to learn all this....quite impressive :toast: It took me 2 years to even think of starting.... :p:

Well I had about an year of reading and learning just in browsing in XR, XS, bowman's old site, pro-cooling, vr-zone, etc, etc.
The 2 weeks were more of actually determined to do it myself and learning how to do it... :P I am not successful yet as I might have another week of tuning... :) Can anyone recommend quiet and powerful compressor? I am suspecting Danfoss SC10CLX might be it but the price is rather appaling and the americold I have now a day are one of kind as they went out of business while back. Looking for something slightly stronger than original mach compressor while as quiet as it is :p

PS)
Well, got it running and tuned it so far for x2 1.7v breezing in at -35c evap loaded and bios reading -10 - -12c dual priming away (large FFT). Idle to load evap temp is only off by 8c so I might have gone bit short on cap tubing... :P Measuring point for evap is right at the edge of evap toward core so I reckon it probably is actually few degrees lower than what I measured for before. All this using just straight r404 :) Vapochill LS will read temp of 4-6c with same kind of load I put in.
Few things that needs to get worked on
1) I didn't have quick disconnect so I got some air in the system even after triple evacing... :slapass: Probably can expect colder temp as well as better noise level (compressor is not as quiet as it used to be... must be all those atmosphere -_-) Nearly as loud as vapo compressor but not quite...
2) Drilling hole under case to mount it on and mount it once I am really done :)

PPS) quick experiment with Panaflo M1A @ 7v shows that it cools down to -34.5c instead of -36.5c I saw... :) I really don't think I do mind considering noise is inaudible over compressor right now. Once I quiten down this compressor (no it is only louder than what it was before and quieter than Vapo LS still) I shall have single phase in lian-li v2000 case with noise level around general water cooling or air cooling setup that cools tons better than vapo LS or Mach II GT :)

[jinu117]

Triple evac'ed today again this time using quick disconnects. Chaged up and as expected compressor noise quietened down significantly. Funny enough, I can't say the evap temp is better as it actually went up 2-3c to -33c. On bright side, bios temp reading dropped another few degrees, now fluctating between -14 to -12c. Must be better contact today :P Only thing left is to get the better insulation work done and shove the unit inside v2000.

PS) Oh well, I found out the temp probe was pulled off some how... So I must be getting better temp on evap... there has got to be better way to measure it more consistantly :P

Here is something quick while I am waiting for it to thaw off and remount it.

BTW, I took out desuperheater :P Wasn't needed at all. and easier for me to manage once it is inside case.

http://webpages.charter.net/jinwpark/PhaseChange/MyOwn/007-FinishedUnit.JPG

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36951&stc=1


http://webpages.charter.net/jinwpark/PhaseChange/MyOwn/009-Idle.JPG

http://webpages.charter.net/jinwpark/PhaseChange/MyOwn/010-FullyLoaded.JPG

Special thanks goes out to many people who helped me: Tats, Frank, Reggie,
wdrzal, Gray Mole, runmc, stewie007, hatemi, ssilencer... I think there are few more I just don't remember heh :) Don't feel offended if I forgot to mention your nick or name here please :) And specail thanks goes to the unspeakable one who actually kind of forced me into journey of doing it myself heh. I am quite happy with 20c lower loaded temp :)

[Gray Mole]

Very nice result, especially on 404a :woot:

What are you thanking us for, you did all the hard work :p: I think it's great you've finally got it sorted out, and not only have you got a cooler to give you good results, but you've also got the experience to keep working on them too :toast:

Definitely another phase addict to add to the list :clap:

Gray

[Ssilencer]

Congratulations on your great single!
Don't know if you understand this: "you took the bull for the horns and make him byte the dust" :D

[jinu117]

Oh lord, I have slow leak somewhere. I've spent last 2 hour looking for it and can't seem to find where it is -_-; Too slow to be noticeble is my guess. (back to looking at the unit)... sigh...

[wdrzal]

soapy water in a spray bottle,(dish washing liquid) spray all joints , then wait 10 min, it will show up.

[Gray Mole]

Depending where it is, you might get a wet patch on some insulation from a tiny bit of oil loss.

Sorry to hear it's got a little leak, but pinholes happen in brazing unfortunately. Focus on the joins first, then the condensor as well if it happens to have been knocked or the inlet/outlet tubs twisted a bit.

You'll find it I'm sure, and you should have loads of 404a left over to get it gassed again ;)

All part of the fun of building I suppose. My Mapp torch just packed up so don't feel too bad, at least you don't have to lug the heavy bottles over when you're ready to redo a join :rolleyes: lol

Gray

[jinu117]

Soap method revealed nothign unfortunately. It really was a small leak somewhere I can't for see. I just unhooked the system to two part and pressure testing each side to narrow down :P (divide and conquer I guess... :P) Since I think I lost some oil, this will be good chance to put some more oil in compressor too (as well as finding simlilar spec'd compressors requiring a lot more oil than what I put in :P) Funny enough last 1 hour of leak testing yields no drop on pressure really. Think I am gonna let it sit overnight. Could it be the 2 places I decided to sweat off actually leaking? lol. That would be hilarious to find out. Getting much better at my blazing now as I am learning this finicky mapp oxy thing from Homedepot... $50 spent and about $30 on gas now... geebus. Once I burn through all gas, I should shop for nice oxy acetylene torch set up, it just isn't cost effective in long run.
Well at least I know what temp I can get back into and already thought about way to improve system slightly :)

[wdrzal]

Just keep at it ,it will turn out fine.Even building a simple loop calls on many skills that most have not done before. There is a learning curve everybody goes Through. So just keep at it!!!! :thumbsup:

[jinu117]

it is either condensor or the suction+evap combo. While at it, I added 6" more of captubing hehe. We shall see how it turns out to be :) Pressure testing @ 150 PSI again on either set.

Funny. no leak on this test at all. I've let it sit for more than 16 hours and no pressure drop at all.
Only explanation of leak would be...
1) Outlet from condensor to the drier.
2) From drier to the cap tubing
3) Drier itself.
After I am done with my real work I shall rebuild once again lol. I noticed that each iteration is taking much less time as I am learning what to expect :)

[jinu117]

Finally found the leak. Damn, it was right around the joint between condensor and copper tubing. There was some copper tubing between condensor and rest of discharge tubing which I reused since it made my job easier. WRONG. The tubing was leaking ever so slowly. Since it seemed to be welded, I just cut it using dremel, gave condensor nice 250 PSI blow of nitrogen (bunch of junk in there hmmm not what I cut from looking at it), reblazed using the nickle rod I had (man I really need to get oxy acetyline torch... that took LONG). Leak testing "AGAIN" as whole system. Bit burnt out today to look at it further anyway. Tomorrow, hopefully it will keep the 110PSI than I can start vacumming again.
BTW, got me toy... supco VG64 digital vacuum gauge. Actually this is what warned me about the leak as it will stop vacuuming around 800 micron when pump was doing well below that when tested on just manifold itself.
I just turned on the vapochill again and voila, this time it doesn't even start lol. I am asking for refund this time. Gotta love Fedex -_-;

[wdrzal]

never cut tubbing with a dremel, only use a tubing cutter.The fileings will cause havic in the system.

[jinu117]

never cut tubbing with a dremel, only use a tubing cutter.The fileings will cause havic in the system.

I didn't want to but the thing was so darned close I couldn't get tubing cutter in and it didn't help the piping was steel.. -_-; At least I flushed the ting out afterward with blasts of nitrogen gas... (I know... bit spendy on nitrogen here :P) funny thing was, I think there were other contaminants in there even before I cut the tubing from looking at what came out (scared hack outta me). Had to take extreme mesure on this one (I sat there thinking about 10 minutes trying to figure out how to cut it... until it hit me shoving dremel won't be much problem with good purging afterwards since condensor was all by it self at this time already :P)

[jinu117]

Quick question...:) how much does ambient temp effect the temp of die? Is it linear 1c:1c? Tuning now and I have no idea if it is better than last time as ambient temp is about 6c off right now.

[Gray Mole]

Theoretically it should have quite a small effect, as long as you're condensing efficiently.

Bear in mind that you're not so much cooling as you are condensing. Look at the chart for the temp/pressure you're condensing at. If you run into a situation where your ambients have a large effect on your evap temps, you shoudl look at whether or not the condensor itself is powerful enough to dissipate the heat.

The only time you really run into ambient temp issues is when you're not able to condense the gas enough because of it. Say if you condense a given gas at 100psi and 30c(just a hypothetical) You're at 150psi, and 24c exiting the condensor. (don't take the numbers seriously, I'm making 'em up) The ambient goes up a little, say 6c, and you're at 30c, and say 160psi.

What effect will that have on the condensing of the gas? Very little, you still have efficient condensing, and as long as your compressor is powerful enough, it should still be making for a pretty close low side pressure to what it was at the lower temp.

I'm just going by what I've seen. If I'm wrong, feel free to :slapass: me lol


Gray

[chilly1]

Keep in mind in a capillary tube systems the evaporator temperature is closeley coupled to the condensing temperature so you cool the condenser you will have a colder evaporator.. Bering in mind that too cold is as bad as too hot, it will put you outside the parameters where the capillary tube will operate efficiently.

[chilly1]

Quick question...:) how much does ambient temp effect the temp of die? Is it linear 1c:1c? Tuning now and I have no idea if it is better than last time as ambient temp is about 6c off right now.

Try to keep the ambient to within 3 degrees of 25C when using my tuning method

[jinu117]

Well I think I lost 1c loaded temp by going 4 inch longer lol. The previous length was the right length or even shorter than (somehow I doubt it) going to turn it up at night time again to make sure if I lost temp or gained temp... lord... I need controlled environment to tune correctly lol)

[s7e9h3n]

Getting much better at my blazing now....
Hey Jin,
Just thought I'd let you know that it's called brazing. Blazing is something totally different and people usually learn how to become better blazers in college.... ;)

[jinu117]

Lol.... doh... miss spelled :P
putting it into case now. will post pic later :)

PS) that 4 inches lost me more gas (obviously) and about 2c of temp. I think I am quite happy with the way machine is right now though :) It is inside case now fitting snugly (well have bunch of space thanks to EATX case desgin :P I am starting to wonder if I had more temp head room by few degree if I went the other way around and cut the cap tubing by 4 inches lol. This might turn out better for me since it is 24x7 rig and I probably won't subject it to 1.7v all the time... :)
Right now case has cheapo ugly psu on top of it to run those fans for single stage chamber... I ain't taking picture until I replace one of them with AC fan lol.