Pentium M vs. Turion review...

[DilTech]

http://www.laptoplogic.com/resources/articles/42/1/1/

Now we have a real unbiased review, not the bs one from GamePC. The big surprise is the winner...

Thank you shadowmage for an insanely nice review, you've definitely earned my respect for this one.

[perkam]

Turions are hard to find though :( - seperately that is.

Perkam

[n00b 0f l337]

Buttttt... You can't get a turion in a desktop can ya? And is there a real desktop dual core solution of a turion on the way?

[Turok]

I saw a lot of people say that Turion sv%$ed vs the Dothan, and now this review says the opposit.
If this is true, and the Turion were Implemented in desktops, wouldnt it be the best OCing CPU?

[DilTech]

Turion is just the code name for mobile a64, they fit in a socket 754 mobo. It's just a chip without the heatspreader built off of low voltage transistors.

Basically, turion beat dothan in it's actual setting, THE LAPTOP!..Clock for clock, as in same exact speeds, the turion(lancaster in this case) beat out the dothan...

[Zer0X]

Buttttt... You can't get a turion in a desktop can ya?

Yes you can. I have seen a few SFFs that use them for HTPCs.

And is there a real desktop dual core solution of a turion on the way?

Yes. It is called Taylor. If I remember correctly it was Dil that linked to THIS (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2476&p=3) updated roadmap.

Turion is just the code name for mobile a64, they fit in a socket 754 mobo. It's just a chip without the heatspreader built off of low voltage transistors.

Basically, turion beat dothan in it's actual setting, THE LAPTOP!..Clock for clock, as in same exact speeds, the turion(lancaster in this case) beat out the dothan...

What impressed me was the batterylife. The PM won the Load battle but lost the idle battle. A few more optimizations and AMD might have a real thorn for intel's side.

I can't wait for my Turion notebook (9/2/05) from HP to get here. :banana:

[DilTech]

I saw a lot of people say that Turion sv%$ed vs the Dothan, and now this review says the opposit.
If this is true, and the Turion were Implemented in desktops, wouldnt it be the best OCing CPU?

The review that made everyone think dothan owned turion was at GamePC, where they used the WRONG chip, and refused to fix it..Ask shadowmage, the author of this review, for the details..

[[XC] moddolicous]

That was a very interesting read. I thought for sure that turion would beat dothan in SPI, but I guess not.

[perkam]

It matters little what GamePC thinks imo. You wont see Macci or Kingpin using a Turion any time soon.

Perkam

[SnipingWaste]

Yes you can. I have seen a few SFFs that use them for HTPCs.



Yes. It is called Taylor. If I remember correctly it was Dil that linked to THIS (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2476&p=3) updated roadmap.



What impressed me was the batterylife. The PM won the Load battle but lost the idle battle. A few more optimizations and AMD might have a real thorn for intel's side.

I can't wait for my Turion notebook (9/2/05) from HP to get here. :banana:


Most don't know about the Turion and its power usage. There are 2 types of Turion out there. There are ML and MT ver and the MLs are 35W and the MT is 25W max. The Dothans are rated at 27W at 75% of max. The MT Turion will use less power then a Dothan and should have better battery life will light usage.

EDIT
The review was done with a Turion ML 35W and not a MT 25W so a MT would do better with battery life.
Here is a place that sells Turions.
http://www.comprella.com/shop/shoplist.php?catid=296&pg=1&ln=&lx=&lb=&lf=&ld=&ls=&lw=10&lp=1&li=1&lk=
http://www.ewiz.com/query.php?categry=645

[oqy77]

Basically, turion beat dothan in it's actual setting, THE LAPTOP!..Clock for clock, as in same exact speeds, the turion(lancaster in this case) beat out the dothan...

But why in superPI 1M the dothan wins by 3 secs minimum :confused: Is it because of cache size or becuz dothan have shorter pipeline?


:toast:

[frostedflakes]

No doubt, Dothan is the better chip. In a desktop, they really shine. :)

But I was getting sick of all the BS misconceptions floating around (mostly thanks to GamePC's review).

I think when power consumption/performance are taken into account, Dothan is the better choice. However, throw the price factor in there, and Turion becomes very appealing. ;)

[DilTech]

read the review, dothan lost MOST of the tests...

[Turok]

Here are some Turions I found:

AMD Turion 64 Mobile ML-30 Processor
http://www.pricegrabber.com/p__AMD_Turion_64_Mobile_ML_30_Processor,__10517089/search=turion

AMD Turion 64 ML-37 Processor
http://www.pricegrabber.com/p__AMD_Turion_64_ML_37_Processor,__9570971/search=turion

How would a Turion perform with this mobo?

JetWay 754GT-P-EC (s754, nF4-4x, PCI-E/AGP 8x)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813153036

[[XC] leviathan18]

why that mobo i think there are better scoket 754 mobos

[Turok]

why that mobo i think there are better scoket 754 mobos

Just because it has PCI-E and AGP 8x at the same time :p:

[Thorry]

Mobo doesn't matter much, performancewise difference is lower then 2%

Just get the one with the most OC (voltage) options

[frostedflakes]

read the review, dothan lost MOST of the tests... I meant in a desktop, where the processor is not crippled by FSB and thermal limitations. :)

But yeah, Dothan doesn't exactly gets pwned in the LL review, but Turion definitely shows it's dominance on a mobile platform. In most tests performance is comparable. In a couple tests Dothan kills Turion. But in quite a few tests, Turion absolutely dominates Dothan.

[i found nemo]

i thought dothan would win hands down, but insted turion wins bye a decent amount .... i bet if someone took turion vs dothan thread (single channel) it would get alot of attention....imo dothan is known for it's incredible pi calculations

[ChronoReverse]

Power consumption wise, Dothan and Turion are much closer than you'd think due to the way Intel and AMD calculate their TDPs.


And since this was Dothan in a LAPTOP vs Turion also in a laptop, you don't have the benefit of faster RAM and hence the Dothan's overall loss.

[FUGGER]

Dothan is over a year old and soon to be replaced with .065nm part @ much higher fsb.

AMD is not quite able to catch up on mobile.

[perkam]

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34602

I knew i saw those specs somewhere before :p: ...Hey Nemo.

Though dual core Turions are on the way...and AMD CEO was determined to bring them close to Yonah launch...this should get interesting.

Perkam

[Ugly n Grey]

Dothan is over a year old and soon to be replaced with .065nm part @ much higher fsb.

AMD is not quite able to catch up on mobile.

Agreed, but a little bird told me they are making a point of beating Intel to the punch on dual core mobiles at low wattages...way ahead of the road map...if you can't beat someone at their own game, pick a different game

[n00b 0f l337]

Or just stop playing games.

[Ugly n Grey]

That'd be tough, AMD has striven for market differentiation from Intel, they need to keep doing more of that...it works..

[i found nemo]

I knew i saw those specs somewhere before :p: ...Hey Nemo.

Though dual core Turions are on the way...and AMD CEO was determined to bring them close to Yonah launch...this should get interesting.

Perkam

hey perk wat's up


(on topic kinda)

forget this "discussion" get a dothan drop multi raise fsb to 200 get turion drop multi untel speed matches dothan....continue to test tyvm

[Ugly n Grey]

Tough to do on a laptop....

I love your nic nemo, everytime I read it, I think...fishsticks for dinner :) :toast:

[Elisha]

ove at dfi-street about 3 to 4 months ago there was a collection going on to get enough money so that a bios could be developed to support the turion on the nF3 250GB and once ther was one a few ppl were getting the turions and were dissapointed. they don't hold a candle against the dothan or the regular mobile a64 afaik.

[Shadowmage]

Hi guys! Glad to see such enthusiasm for my review! This was my hardest article yet (I really wanted it to be unbiased, etc), so glad to see no flames (yet) ;)

I have to say, this forum is much more mature than the idiots at NotebookReview, Anandtech, and those who posted rediculous comments on the LaptopLogic comments area. Congratulations on being one of the most mature communities on the internet :)

To answer a few questions/concerns, though:


1. It *IS* possible to test at different multipliers, via RM Clock. However, my benchmarker (the two laptops were with someone else) didn't want to do it :( He already spent many days doing it, so give him a break ;)

2. No worries about the results, he's completely unbiased and very professional at benchmarking. Results were confirmed by someone who understands Intel processors (ahem).

3. Turion is just a slightly modified AMD64. As many people proved, it's not too good at OCing (tying with Winchester). The s754 3700+ is much better for that. The reason Dothan lost is due to the high SO-DIMM latencies and low overall bandwidth. Remember that Dothan's bandwidth TIED with the Turion's single channel DDR400 bandwidth, aka it's pathetic. There is NO need to go rush out to buy a Turion. Venice/San Diego chips are much better for this task, as well as Dothan itself ;)

[Ugly n Grey]

Yeah mobile shmobile...keep these chips in lappy's where they belong.... Give me a M2 X2 or nice dual core next gen Intel desktop chip....

Nice review, thanks for the explanation on the RAM latentcies

[dqniel]

Hi guys! Glad to see such enthusiasm for my review! This was my hardest article yet (I really wanted it to be unbiased, etc), so glad to see no flames (yet) ;)

I have to say, this forum is much more mature than the idiots at NotebookReview, Anandtech, and those who posted rediculous comments on the LaptopLogic comments area. Congratulations on being one of the most mature communities on the internet :)

To answer a few questions/concerns, though:


1. It *IS* possible to test at different multipliers, via RM Clock. However, my benchmarker (the two laptops were with someone else) didn't want to do it :( He already spent many days doing it, so give him a break ;)

2. No worries about the results, he's completely unbiased and very professional at benchmarking. Results were confirmed by someone who understands Intel processors (ahem).

3. Turion is just a slightly modified AMD64. As many people proved, it's not too good at OCing (tying with Winchester). The s754 3700+ is much better for that. The reason Dothan lost is due to the high SO-DIMM latencies and low overall bandwidth. Remember that Dothan's bandwidth TIED with the Turion's single channel DDR400 bandwidth, aka it's pathetic. There is NO need to go rush out to buy a Turion. Venice/San Diego chips are much better for this task, as well as Dothan itself ;)

So long story short, when comparing Dothan and Turion:

Get a Turion for a notebook and a Dothan for a desktop?

[DilTech]

No..Get an X2 for desktop and turion for laptop, that easy. The dothan doesn't have what it needs to beat turion on the laptop front, and remember AMD has X2 turions at 25W and 35W to battle yonah, so don't think it's going to only go one way.

Should be an interesting year next year.

[ibby]

good review .. intresting :D

[enzoR]

Great review!

[Shadowmage]

So long story short, when comparing Dothan and Turion:

Get a Turion for a notebook and a Dothan for a desktop?


Any s939 processor for Desktop, Turion for laptop ;)

It's cheaper, performs better, and only loses in battery life when under heavy load.

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

3. Turion is just a slightly modified AMD64. As many people proved, it's not too good at OCing (tying with Winchester). The s754 3700+ is much better for that.
It is? Last I saw, someone had a Turion at 3.1 GHz on air. (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=61428&highlight=turion) Not too shabby when you consider that most newcastles/claws (754) only do 2.6-2.7 on air.

[frostedflakes]

That's actually a mobile Athlon64, not a Turion64 (yes, they are two different processors). Although according to AMD tech docs, they use the same silicon. Early Turions OC'd like crap, but I'd expect the newer chips to do pretty well (similar to the Newark results people have been getting).

[Revv23]

That's actually a mobile Athlon64, not a Turion64 (yes, they are two different processors). Although according to AMD tech docs, they use the same silicon. Early Turions OC'd like crap, but I'd expect the newer chips to do pretty well (similar to the Newark results people have been getting).


isnt newark the non LV version of the A64 Mobile?

heard those are doing very well as they dont have the slower LV transistors but they do have the 90nm process...

[frostedflakes]

Newark is an Athlon64 mobile, and Lancaster is a Turion64. Newark operates at 1.35V, just like the Turion64 35w. The only real difference between Athlon64 mobile and Turion64 35w is that the Athlon64 mobile line goes up to 2.6GHz, whereas the Turion64 35w only goes up to 2.4GHz.

I've owned both a Lancaster and Newark. According to AMD tech docs, they are both SH-E5 revision cores. CPU-Z confirmed this. I also measured power consumption of both chips at the same speed and voltage, and power consumption was the same. So I think it's safe to say that Newark uses the same low-power transistors as Lancaster. AMD just sells them under different categories (Turion64 for thin-and-light, mobile Athlon64 for DTR/performance laptops).

And really, this makes sense. Why produce two different type of 90nm S754 processors? In the end, I'm sure it's much cheaper/easier to churn out exclusively SH-E5 chips and bin them for A64-M, T64 35w, and T64 25w.

[Revv23]

cool thanks for the info, now i just wish i could find myself a place that sells newark...

[frostedflakes]

Last I heard Shentech.com had Newark, but only the 3400+ and 3700+ models.

Then there's always Vandi423. He was kind enough to hook me up with this Turion and the Newark I tried. :)

[Bloody_Sorcerer]

mwave apperently has newarks/lancasters (according to anandtech's RTPE) at like $270 for the ML-37

[Pinnacle]

Very intersting review! Kinda makes me even more confused on what platform to go with.

[shadowing]

Interesting find!!

shadowmage: is it possible to find an ODM specifically for the Turion? Or will the Turion fit in pre-existing s754 laptops?

[Shadowmage]

Turion will work for previous s754 laptops if they have the appropriate BIOS update. It's sorta like with mobos: some will work fine, some will kinda work, and some won't boot at all when u put in a new CPU that's not officially supported.

[Shadowmage]

Due to the OVERWHELMING FEEDBACK (I even got flames from editors from other websites! Our forums got rushed by THW fanboys (they released a (crappier) CPU review as well)), we are doing a FOLLOWUP to the test!

Please post what you would like to see in the test! We will be furthering the battery test with BatteryEater and MobileMark as well.

[theplop]

Good to hear the turions are doing good. I just bought me a new turion laptop.

# – AMD Turion(TM) 64 ML-34 (1.8GHz/1MB L2 Cache)
# – FREE Upgrade to 14.0 WXGA BrightView Widescreen!!
# – ATI RADEON(R) XPRESS 200M w/productivity ports
# – 512MB DDR SDRAM (2x256MB)
#– 12 Cell Lithium Ion Battery
i had to cut back one other things like ram and hard drive to get the better processor. The review really helped me make a decision in what to get. As for the power issue, i got the bigger 12 cell battery to help conmpensate that.

as for AMD's in laptops, its a bummer that harldy anyone puts them in their systems. Acer, and Hp were about the only two i could find. (granted you mentioned MSI had one, but its not out in usa yet) So pickings were slim.

as for what to put in your new test, i think a run of how long you can watch a dvd movie off a full charge would be nice (its something i would use).

Turion's single channel DDR400 bandwidth
also, one last thing, i noticed the turion runs in single channel mode, is this just the way its setup? Or is it a hardware limitation?

now, to see how well linux 64 will run on this ;)
wardriving, here i come..........

[Shadowmage]

Turion is socket 754. It's hardware limited to single channel

[Alphafox]

Thewiz, see my post reguarding ram speed with the presario V2000, which is what im assuming you got because of the 200M graphics. Make sure your bios is F.0A, otherwise check your ram speed. with 2x dimms it may run the ddr333 ram at 133mhz. if you update to the F.0A bios it fixes this but HP still hasnt released it on there site.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=25157&page=3&pp=10

[Mysterfix]

Very nice review Shadowmage and kudo's for being so unbiased and thurough. It's nice to see someone take the time to do a review properly.

[Pinnacle]

We need to see ALOT more Centrino vs Turion reviews. Their few and far between

Make it happen