Evap Head choices.

[K404]

Hey! i`m pretty sure theres a list somewhere here (either that or I`ve been having sweet dreams) with all the Evap head choices for our systems, but I cant find it. Please can someone point me in the right direction or help me with a list? Apart from Mr Chilly1`s, which are the best, and how much variation is there?

Thanks,
Kenny

[alexio]

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52136

And it is not fair to say that chilly1's evap is the best since no test between a lot of different evaps has been published.

[K404]

Thanks Alexio :)

Sorry for the assumption there... Chilly1s heads appear to be popular, I guessed that was because they were the best :slap:

:)

Kenny

[Jack]

Well i don't know which evap is the best, but chilly1's evaps are good :) Lot's of people use those. And they have a very complete and easy to use mounting kit.

[K404]

I`m not qualified or knowledgable enough to change my head and i`m planning some other custom-work from Fatty anyway so I could ask him nicely to change the head as well, if I go for another kind. :)

If no real comparison has been done, it might be a useful thing to try...round up a laod of heads and a LOT of time and try them all :)

[Unknown_road]

to make a good roundup you have to be 100% sure that every system is perfectly equal(except for the evap offcourse). That also means the exact same amount of refrigerant, cap tube length, room temp etc. That's not that easy.

[K404]

Very true. I dont know how a charge difference will affect temperatures. How big a difference can a head make in temperature (roughly)?

I`m guessing that all the guys that make Evap heads know what they`re doing, so there will be no bad heads..pay your money, make your choice :)

Kenny

[MutantToad]

Chilly said that he would do some evap testing in a few weeks a few weeks ago...
He should get to do that pretty soon (I hope).

Edit:
LINK (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70128&highlight=evap)

[K404]

T`would be very useful and very welcome :)

[Ssilencer]

Chilly said that he would do some evap testing in a few weeks a few weeks ago...
He should get to do that pretty soon (I hope).

Edit:
LINK (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70128&highlight=evap)

Chilly1 will do his own evaps testing, not other evaps testing.
Noboby had compared evaps in public, but I think some of us used differents evaps.

[Waus-mod]

Some testing would be nice... The block from chilly performs very good but with no testing with others we cant say whats the best :(

[jinu117]

I think the problem with each evap is that
1) They might behave differently based on how system is tuned. Way too many variables are introduced and not too many are controllable.
2) Tuning each evap will take more time than say, connecting and disconnecting the water loop :P Be it amount of gas, cap tubing.
3) And it isn't cheap to do so over all vs watercooling testing. Gas isn't free, and it takes time to make perfect comparison scenario with all those triple evaccing, testing under load, etc.
4) Another thing is, each evap might behave different based on heat load. Just my little thought on it but who knows...

[placebo]

Hi guys... and hello to K404... :)

It is true, the major problem with these evaps is that there are no reliable test data available. And, it holds also true that there are lots of variable, as jinu117 pointed out.

Well, we have been working with Mr. Chilly1 for a while. Load testers are one part of this and we are about to get these finished off next week, hopefully.

When judging an evaporators performance/behaviour with a "load tester" you can get 2 sets of measurements:

1) Total Capacity of the System (Which you will be able to pinpoint to the exact Watt)
2) Kelvin per Watt. E.g. how many degrees does the load block get hotter for every 10W of thermal load. (Some of you should know C/W ratings from Air- and Water- Cooling equipment)

The one problem left is that the C/W obviously does depend on the compressor you are using (at least when doing it this way). So, there will have to be a variation. Still, in order to determine capacity and/or evap changes this "load tester" should work very well.

In regards to what the best evap is out there??? Well... it depends a lot on personal preference and who you trust... hehe

We have been doing some pretty extensive cooperation with Mr. Chilly1 on the Revision E.02 and I would be suprised if this doesnt turn out to be the best "production type" evap out there...

Golden and Ssilencer came up with a new evaporator. M1A I believe... From having talked to Ssilencer on MSN and what he has told me about that design, it probably even behaves a bit better than Chilly1s. However, it took him days to finish this evap!! Trying to do like 200 of these is out of the question, due to cost.
Also, with just a couple more minor adjustments to Mr. Chilly1s Rev.E.02 we should be able to get very close to his performance figures... :)

[K404]

Hey Placebo!

It looks like all the evap heads are gonna perform within a few degrees of each other, and that difference will be absorbed by the differences in compressor, charge, cap length etc so.... at the end of the day, its probably not worth the switch, is it? :(

Kenny

[Unknown_road]

placebo, what you suggest just isn't going to say anything about evap performance. only thing important when you test evap performance is deltaT between evap and cpu core at different loads(evap A can perform better then evap B at low load while evap B performs better then evap A at a high load) . The rest of the system has to be perfectly equal.

Remind, a good evap doesn't make the evap temp lower!!

[placebo]

placebo, what you suggest just isn't going to say anything about evap performance. only thing important when you test evap performance is deltaT between evap and cpu core at different loads(evap A can perform better then evap B at low load while evap B performs better then evap A at a high load) . The rest of the system has to be perfectly equal.

Remind, a good evap doesn't make the evap temp lower!!



Yep, couldnt agree any more with this... and sorry about not having been completely clear about what I said.

The laod tester will enable for two sets of measurements to be taken:

1) Total System Capacity (Should be pretty obvious how thats done...)
2) Evaporator efficiency. And, there are a couple ways one could go about it...

Option a.) Disregards the evaporator temperature and simply measure the "internal" temperature of the load block. Basically, you would end up with the following formula:
"Load Block" - "Ambient" / "Watts" -> Evaporator Efficiency
For example:
-40c - 20c ambient & 50W -> Evaporator Efficiency of -1.2
-30c - 20c ambient & 100W -> Evaporator Efficiency of -0.5
-10c - 20c ambient & 200W -> Evaporator Efficiency of -0.15
Of course, these figures very much depend on the load. As such, as standard set of measurements would have to be taken. (e.g. 50w, 100w, 150w and 200w and the average would be calculated)
In return, this should give a pretty darn good figure of how well the evaporator is transferring heat and thus its efficiency.

Option b.) Mount a probe on the suction line and compare "internal block" temperature with the suction temperature.
For example:
Formula -> "Suction Temperature" - "Block Temperature" / "Watts" -> Evaporator Efficiency
-50c Suction - -40 Block & 50W -> Evaporator Efficiency of .2
-40c Suction - -30 Block & 100W -> Evaporator Efficiency of .1
-20c Suction - -10 Block & 200W Evaporator Efficiency of 0.05

Again, we havent decided yet on which set of figures to use. We may end up including both ways of calculating the performance.

Any and all input welcome.... :)

[wdrzal]

Actully a test rig should be incorparated into a calorimeter. that way the ACTUAL CALORIES of heat that is asorbed can be measured. say you used a 200 watt standard load, evap 1 asorbed 700 calories or190 watt seconds, evap2 asorbed 730 calories or or 196 watt seconds.

evap 2 would be the better evap

note I just widly gussed at the numbers just too show a example,but thats how they should be tested againt each other

[Gray Mole]

Hey Placebo!

It looks like all the evap heads are gonna perform within a few degrees of each other, and that difference will be absorbed by the differences in compressor, charge, cap length etc so.... at the end of the day, its probably not worth the switch, is it? :(

Kenny

Hey Kenny :)

If you're saying it's not worth the switch from the standard head on a Mach2 for instance, then I'd say it definitely is.

I found the load variation to be far less on a Chilly1 head, than on the standard head.

If you're saying it's not worth the swap from one good custom head to another, then I'd probably agree, as they are all quite good, and spending a fortune for a few degrees difference might not be worth it.

If you've got a standard head on a Mach1/2, I don't think you'd be sorry having it changed to something a little better, and Chilly's are among the best.

Gray

[placebo]

Okay, I keep trying to edit my post and computers keep crashing (regardless of which one I use... even my new PDA crashes... lol)

Anyways, the ways of how numbers are calculated will be easily changeable.

The load testers do include a full blown controller, PT100 probes, LCD display, windows software and USB connectivity... :D

[Gray Mole]

Hey Placebo, this load test kit, is it something you've made or bought?

Where can you get one like that? I've never seen one for sale...

Gray

[placebo]

wdrzal wrote:
Actully a test rig should be incorparated into a calorimeter. that way the ACTUAL CALORIES of heat that is asorbed can be measured. say you used a 200 watt standard load, evap 1 asorbed 700 calories or190 watt seconds, evap2 asorbed 730 calories or or 196 watt seconds.

evap 2 would be the better evap

note I just widly gussed at the numbers just too show a example,but thats how they should be tested againt each other

I agree with that.. Now, I have never seen a calorimeter and would probably go running if I saw the price on one. We have been trying to come up with an easy way to compare efficiencies. Even though it aint perfect, in theory the lower the load block temperature the more calories were removed!
Thus, it goes into the same direction of what you said. And yes, this is the best way of doing it! :D;)


Gray Mole wrote:
Hey Kenny

If you're saying it's not worth the switch from the standard head on a Mach2 for instance, then I'd say it definitely is.

I found the load variation to be far less on a Chilly1 head, than on the standard head.

If you're saying it's not worth the swap from one good custom head to another, then I'd probably agree, as they are all quite good, and spending a fortune for a few degrees difference might not be worth it.

If you've got a standard head on a Mach1/2, I don't think you'd be sorry having it changed to something a little better, and Chilly's are among the best.

Gray

Hi there! Well, what makes you think I said and/or even meant that? Let me clarify. I didnt mean that at all! Just dont wanna sounds like an advertising agent, running around for Mr. Chilly1... lol

We are working very closely with Reggie on this and the load tester is supposed to be used as a tool to fine-tune any and all changes to his current and/or coming designs.

[placebo]

Gray Mole wrote:
Hey Placebo, this load test kit, is it something you've made or bought?

Where can you get one like that? I've never seen one for sale...

Gray

Its something we have developed ourselves. I am really no HVAC enginner, nor a technician. So, I only know the very basics of what the thing can do.... I am really more into the management of the whole company, etc...

Reggie will be the first person getting his hands on these and he will also be handling the sales for North America.

The first 12 sets are almost finished. We are just awaiting the last package from Chilly1, which includes 12 of the character displays, to go on the testers.

[Gray Mole]

Oh no no I didn't mean to say that at all lol

I just wanted Kenny to know it's worth getting an upgraded head for his Mach2, cos I'm pretty sure that's what he's talking about. If you're gonna get a regas to 507(something else I think he's looking at) then I'd say it's definitely worth it.

I don't mind being a walking ad for him lol I loved the results when my Mach2 was modded to his head with 507.

Sorry didn't mean to put anything in your mouth, words or otherwise :p:

I've been looking for a load tester for regassing myself, and while that sounds pretty advanced for what i really need, it seems like a premade one is hard to find, unless someone has a link?

Gray

[Gray Mole]

LOL never mind, I'll PM Reg and see what I'd be looking at, or if something more basic is available for sale :)

Gray

[placebo]

Gray wrote:
I've been looking for a load tester for regassing myself, and while that sounds pretty advanced for what i really need, it seems like a premade one is hard to find, unless someone has a link?

Actually, you got me on your MSN contact list... Again, one of those people that cant match my nick to my real name... hehehe

Think my friend... who could I be...? ;):D

Part of us is located in the UK and we would be able to provide you with a load tester, no problem.

[Gray Mole]

Grr...I'm so bad at puzzles lol

I'll just start spamming my msn til you 'fess up heheh

My internet is pretty bad on the wireless atm, but I'll give it my best :rolleyes:

Gray

[Jack]

why measure the evap temp?
It's the cpu temp that matters, so measure the loadblock's temp instead.
And we would like to know how evaps handle different loads, a wide range would be nice... from 60W (gpu load) to 220W (cpu load).
And some spike testing :)

[K404]

@Mole...Hey! Long time no see. Overall, spot on about my intentions. Wish I knew my plans as well as you do! I had the chance to have the GT charged with `507 when I bought it, but I turned it down for now, I wanna get used to the new gear and see what it can/cant do, and the potential for condensation as it is. I`m also not a massive fan of the idea of having to keep my CPU loaded if I`m using R507.

Anyway... @Jack, yes, I`d also like to see how evaps handle load but those figures would be unit specific depending on the rest of the gear. I know for a fact my CPU is pushing out nowhere near 210W but thats what my unit is tuned to, I think. Even if someone could put together a very rough load V temp graph for some popular setups, that would be good, but I suspect most of the folk here chase perfection so wouldnt put their name to something that had so many variables and not-quite-accurates.

[Waus-mod]

Lets say.. bring the test on! and suprise us.

[placebo]

Jack wrote:
why measure the evap temp?


I never mentioned measuring the evap temp, did I? The suggested calculations would take "Ambient & Load Block Temperature" and/or "Suction Temp & Load Block Temperature" into consideration. You are right. Evaporator temperature is somwhat irrelevant and/or it is extremely difficult to find the correct mounting spot, which everyone would have to follow, etc.
Our load testers will have a pre- mounted PT100 temp sensor in the load block. The position will be the same for all testers. As such, the comparison results should be very valuable and dead on.

In regards to the temperature range these testers will allow for exact dialing between 0-250W, while the load and temperatures will be displayed on the LCD.

[Gray Mole]

Actually Ken, the lack of condensation surprised me with the chilly mount.

I always had a small amount with the standard GT before I got Fatty to mod it, not much, but I wouldn't have dreamed of not using dielectric in the cpu socket, etc cos every time I opened it up, there'd be a trace of moisture in there, no matter how well I used the seal string.

When using the chilly head and that foam ring, I never had an issue. I opened it up here and there to check, and it was bone dry. I still used dielectric in the socket cos I'm chicken, but it was so much better for sealing up.

It is a good idea though, if you plan to use a good freezer 24/7, even the GT, to run a load on it when you're not there. Folding or something is good :D

I ran 24/7 with the Chilly for a while on the FX-55 I have now, with the IHS off, to burn it in, and had no probs. Nothing loosens up a chip and ram like a couple weeks folding lol

Gray

[Gray Mole]

I never mentioned measuring the evap temp, did I? The suggested calculations would take "Ambient & Load Block Temperature" and/or "Suction Temp & Load Block Temperature" into consideration. You are right. Evaporator temperature is somwhat irrelevant and/or it is extremely difficult to find the correct mounting spot, which everyone would have to follow, etc.
Our load testers will have a pre- mounted PT100 temp sensor in the load block. The position will be the same for all testers. As such, the comparison results should be very valuable and dead on.

In regards to the temperature range these testers will allow for exact dialing between 0-250W, while the load and temperatures will be displayed on the LCD.

:slobber: :slobber: :slobber:

C'mon mystery man at least PM me and let me know who to beg for one of these cool toys :D

[placebo]

Gray Mole wrote:
:slobber: :slobber: :slobber:

C'mon mystery man at least PM me and let me know who to beg for one of these cool toys :D

Oh, no need to beg... ;) (Maybe pre- order though... lol)

I will have one of my partners and/or the creator post a detailed review of these testers, once they are finished. This will be posted in the Vapor Phase Change Cooling section on XS. Sales for North America will be handled through Chilly1 and partner stores. Distribution for the rest of the world will be handled through us, directly.

Anyone got any specific requests of what you would like to see incorporated into the design, feel free to let me know. :)

[Gray Mole]

Sounds good then, I'll just have to wait it out like everyone else :rolleyes:

Nice piece of kit though, I look forward to seeing it in action. :D


Gray

[saratoga]

One problem I see with testing:

Evaps add some restriction to the system. The optimal captube length for one evap may not be the same for another. I think if you do this, you'll need a way to adjust the metering device until each evap has the same suction pressure. At least I think thats a fair way to do it, because then you know the gas is under the same conditions in each, though I'm not sure how well that would work in practice. Then you could attempt to measure C/W as you would with a waterblock.

[wdrzal]

tune each to 12 degrees superheat to make them equal,use a cpev on test rig, A colorimeter will measure the heat the condensor ex-spells, the more heat the better the evap. the test rig would need to be built to controll ambiant temp and the insulation package should also be tested. actully the dummy load should be applied in a vacuum chamber so evaps can't asorb heat from any where but the dummy load

[Ssilencer]

tune each to 12 degrees superheat to make them equal,use a cpev on test rig, A colorimeter will measure the heat the condensor ex-spells, the more heat the better the evap. the test rig would need to be built to controll ambiant temp and the insulation package should also be tested. actully the dummy load should be applied in a vacuum chamber so evaps can't asorb heat from any where but the dummy load

So, there is no way for testing evaps.
I think it is not that dificult to see if an evap doesnt work.
You see, sometime ago, I was charging a single stage, but, as allways I didn't have any serious dummy load at hand, so I used a heat gun directly to the evap head. Well, the thing was the evap not even loose the ice, so I though "what a great evap...", then I see that the pressures didnt change in a logic way, so, the gas was "insulated " in the evap, the evap didnt tranfer heat to the gas.
A lot of people measure evaps head to see if the evap is good or bad, I think an evap is good if it can transfer heat to the gas efficiently, so you can see important changes in pressures with higher load, etc.

What we need to get is better Dt betwin processors and gas IMHO.

[placebo]

So, there is no way for testing evaps.
I think it is not that dificult to see if an evap doesnt work.
You see, sometime ago, I was charging a single stage, but, as allways I didn't have any serious dummy load at hand, so I used a heat gun directly to the evap head. Well, the thing was the evap not even loose the ice, so I though "what a great evap...", then I see that the pressures didnt change in a logic way, so, the gas was "insulated " in the evap, the evap didnt tranfer heat to the gas.
A lot of people measure evaps head to see if the evap is good or bad, I think an evap is good if it can transfer heat to the gas efficiently, so you can see important changes in pressures with higher load, etc.

What we need to get is better Dt betwin processors and gas IMHO.

Yep exactly. So whatever evap and/or setup reaches the lowest Load Block temperature at 50, 100, 150 and 200W wins! :)

Also, you are correct saying that these results should be categorized, based upon the compressor size that was used and the voltage it was fed.

Its sort of like going by the mainboard temp probes. Just that with the testers everyone will have the exact same and correct probe. Mounted always at the same spot, etc... Thus, comparisons should be very nice!