Kayls bench cascade [Archive] - XtremeSystems Forums

kayl

08-26-2005, 11:00 AM

What size tubing is that, and how tight a diameter did you wind it? It looks really tight. I was wondering how you did that without collapsing the tube.

its 1/4" and its about 40mm diameter.
i wound it around desk fan stand.
it took a few goes. This pipe is crap hey, the last roll i had was much thicker walls. this stuff kink not carefull.

I was just thinking the same thing, if you did that by hand thats just awsome kayl !!!!

look at that 90 degree bend on the right end, thats tighter yet.

tahnxs wdrzal yep by hand. that bend you talking about, got a slight kink, but i got it out and brazed it a tad to re-enforce again.

I will have 2 chilly condensers sitting under the hx and 2 rotaries on the other side.
I also have another idea for a special 2nd stage Suction line hx.

Is it better to have the suction line hx for the second stage before the hx or after the hx cooling the 1150 liquid line.??

i know last cascade it was just too cold and needs to be heated alot.

wdrzal

08-26-2005, 11:15 AM

whats the diameter of the copper tube it fits inside?

Tonic

08-26-2005, 11:16 AM

Nice coil :)

But.. I'm afraid that an internal volume of largest pipe will be too large for evaporating (if this largest pipe is
supposed to work as evaporator). Do you remember Jan's autocascade heat exchanger, which was looking as
your? And he had problems, refrigerant wasn't flooding inside largest tube properly and also temperatures
was so bad.

EDIT :

About placing suction pipes, somewhere berkut said it's better to place after interstage HX, but I don't know why..
I hope someone knows and will tell us ;)

hatemi

08-26-2005, 02:26 PM

You can flood that HX easily with a proper compressor;) with those rortaries it will be a walk in a park kinda stuff. Somehow this design looks familiar ;)

Waus-mod

08-26-2005, 04:27 PM

its sure is a nice hx.. very compact and looks like a waterchiller reservoir!

stockhatch

08-26-2005, 05:30 PM

Looking good kayl. That IHX looks great! I hope it works as good as it looks :)

Cpt Twitchy

08-26-2005, 09:04 PM

I like that nice compact HX.

runmc

08-26-2005, 09:29 PM

Is it better to have the suction line hx for the second stage before the hx or after the hx cooling the 1150 liquid line.??

That sounds like a loaded question to me :confused:

If your talking about sub-cooling your second stage discharge with the second stage suction, the way I did it was subcool the discharge gas before the interstage hx with the suction line hx and then subcool the captube with the suction line. The suction line would be subcooling the captube first.

Did I say that right? :am:

kayl

08-26-2005, 09:49 PM

That sounds like a loaded question to me :confused:

If your talking about sub-cooling your second stage discharge with the second stage suction, the way I did it was subcool the discharge gas before the interstage hx with the suction line hx and then subcool the captube with the suction line. The suction line would be subcooling the captube first.

Did I say that right? :am:

thanxs guys.
runmc thats what i though.
But recently berkut said to do the second stage.
I think either would help.

i wasnt decided so i did both :toast:
its a little hard to follow
but right feed is to 1150 capillary line
left feed is 1150 in.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36234&stc=1

kayl

08-26-2005, 09:56 PM

whats the diameter of the copper tube it fits inside?

the tube is 50mm

Nice coil :)

But.. I'm afraid that an internal volume of largest pipe will be too large for evaporating (if this largest pipe is
supposed to work as evaporator). Do you remember Jan's autocascade heat exchanger, which was looking as
your? And he had problems, refrigerant wasn't flooding inside largest tube properly and also temperatures
was so bad.

EDIT :

About placing suction pipes, somewhere berkut said it's better to place after interstage HX, but I don't know why..
I hope someone knows and will tell us ;)

yeah i remember , i hope its not an issue, i had same problem with map gas hx with coil inside. the 2 extra pipes inside i hope will restrict it a little, and longer capillary maybe.
Buts its sort of short and as hatemi said 1Hp really pump it in and suck it out.
yeah i think the suction line after will really condense the 1150 well i think.

runmc

08-26-2005, 10:38 PM

But recently berkut said to do the second stage.

I don't understand what you mean. I was talking about the second stage.

kayl

08-26-2005, 10:46 PM

I don't understand what you mean. I was talking about the second stage.
sorry, i meant second stage 1150 liquid out.

i 100% agree with what you said before, thats the way its in the stickies also.

wdrzal

08-26-2005, 11:09 PM

runmc was correct before, compressor to desuperheater to interstage HX

ps what time zone are you in kayl, are you +8 ,+9 or+10 gmt

hatemi

08-27-2005, 01:55 AM

I would mount that HX as low as it is possible. That way it will be easier to keep it flooded but still without it flooding back to the compressor. Actually I believe it would be a good idea to put the HX below everything else. Make a box/baseplate where it will fit with enough insulation and build everything else ontop of that :)

kayl

08-28-2005, 12:42 AM

Tonic

08-28-2005, 03:28 PM

Canals surely looks better in comparing to previous evaporators :) But you should work a little on walls, there they're thin ;)

gkiing

08-28-2005, 03:51 PM

Canals surely looks better in comparing to previous evaporators :) But you should work a little on walls, there they're thin ;)

It's not too bad and the tops will be covered with filler, keep in mind that the wall thickness of most soft copper tubing is only 1/32"

kayl

08-28-2005, 05:20 PM

Canals surely looks better in comparing to previous evaporators :) But you should work a little on walls, there they're thin ;)

its atleast 2mm i think, and what gkiing said is very true as well :toast:

stockhatch

08-28-2005, 05:47 PM

Lookin good. There are a couple of spots that look like the channels arent fully cut/connected, is that just an illusion, or what?

kayl

08-28-2005, 07:32 PM

Yes and no, in each hole I have a little cup at bottom, so there is about 1mm little wall between each hole for added surface area. I initially drill to about 4mm within base, then remove channels and back to drill press and take about 1mm more off each hole to bring base to 2-3mm.
There is a lot more surface area in this drilled evap than one done by a mill.
Block it 18mm high total with lid.

C-BuZz

08-28-2005, 08:18 PM

thaxs for that hatemi makes sense, have a think about that one i will.
wdrzal i check and let ya know.

this is my evap i used 7/32" drill bit in drill press.
then a 3/16" drill bit to clear the channels in a hand drill.
block is 40mm square and cost $10, thats a cheap evap hey. :toast:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36299&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36300&stc=1

looks just like mine :), however im having a hard time finding 2/3mm top plates to fit. They have Thermaltake & others on the net but not paying $10/$15ea for a 3mm plate of copper when I bought 10 x blocks of copper 50mm X 50mm X 30mm for $7 ea & that's cut to size! They dont cut them 3mm for some strange reason, they said that there machines cant cut them that thin?

C-BuZz

kayl

08-28-2005, 09:01 PM

Cbuzz is that for your vapour chill mod over at OCAU.
yeah copper in raw form is only about $10 kg.
when they cut the blocks did they lap them for you as well?

(i know my first lot of copper blocks i got from Melbourne faces were ruff as)
you wouldn’t believe how long it took me to lap them flat.) the grooves from the saw that cut them were quiet deep.
i took the other 7 blocks to a local buy and had them lapped.

the place you got your copper from, im sure they will have copper plate 3-4mm thick.
should get that cheaper than the copper bar.
My friend (local) that i get copper from now will one day find out how to program the cnc machine. and i will have round evaps.

kayl

08-29-2005, 12:37 AM

runmc was correct before, compressor to desuperheater to interstage HX

ps what time zone are you in kayl, are you +8 ,+9 or+10 gmt

Im on GMT of +8 :toast:
but i work mostly late wednesday/fridays nights to wee hours

Jack

08-29-2005, 01:06 AM

desuperheating your secondstage discharge with the secondstage suctionline, is that really worth it? Won't that just add more heatload to the secondstage and negativly effect temps?

C-BuZz

08-29-2005, 06:52 AM

kayl

08-29-2005, 08:42 PM

desuperheating your secondstage discharge with the secondstage suctionline, is that really worth it? Won't that just add more heatload to the secondstage and negativly effect temps?

hmmmm yes and know, if you look at the cascade stickies they are used in both the first and second stage of a cascade. If they are needed or make the cascade work better is questionable I must agree.

In a cascade if the cpu evap is -100c and the suction line before the compressor is normally still -80c or colder.
So I lengthen the capillary line to make it more restrictive to get less flood back to the compressor and now temps arnt as good at the evap, too restrictive and not enough capacity for 200w or so.
You have all that cold happening in the suction line and it isn’t being used for anything useful.
You could also add a few feet to the second stage suction line to have the same effect (reduce the flood back to the compressor)
This is why building cascades are so much fun, there is no guides to what works best, just different ppls findings.
i have built a few cascades and they work well with or without suction line hx.
-9xc at load, not a -100c loaded cascade yet, and that’s what I want, so I have to try different things till I get there.

For my co2 cascade under load my evap was around -70c or something around that, and the suction line before the compressors was actually colder -8xc. I was using quiet a short length of capillary line, and if I lengthen the capillary line the system didnt have enough suction to cope with the subliming that happens with co2, and loaded temps benching arnt as good.
After adding a suction line hx (inside the actual pipe hx) I gained more capacity at the evap (colder temps as well) and now the suction line was around 8K of supa heat which is ideal. But having the suction line HX inside the hx just doesn’t make sense but it worked well. So hopefully having the Suction line hx separate to the hx will further improve my loaded temps in my new cascade.
Its easy to get -100c noload but it takes a good cascade to get -100c loaded benching ya pc, and you don’t seem many ppl benching -100c these days using bench applications other than supa Pi. 3dmark2001 is what I like to bench mark against looping.

c-buzz look forward to ya phase change thread when you start it.

kayl

09-16-2005, 10:08 AM

Lookin good. There are a couple of spotsthat look like the channels arent fully cut/connected, is that just an illusion, or what?
i think there is one spot that is real clse now that i look closer.
i am holding off on evap (lazy) until i get some $$ and will soon have a new evap design ready i hope.
dont want to waste insulation toying intill got most parts.

i insulated the hx tonight though with expander foam, it got a bit messy but ill chop it back.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37147&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37148&stc=1

kayl

09-18-2005, 09:08 AM

did a little work on the cascade tonight.
decided to put the condenser on top of each other instead of under the heat hx.
I still need to chop the pipes off the top of the rotaries to make it shorter.
the cascade has got a set of wheels now :woot:
End size should be 60cm long 38cm heigh and 40cm wide ;)
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37233&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37236&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37235&stc=1

Jack

09-19-2005, 08:46 AM

End size should be 60cm long 38cm heigh and 40cm wide ;)

:slobber:

Damn small!

Looking good, as usual :D :toast:

SustaiN

09-19-2005, 01:25 PM

A bit ghetto but as Jack said it is very small. Looks great. Looking forward to see some nice results ;)

SlackeR

09-19-2005, 02:49 PM

A bit ghetto but as Jack said it is very small. Looks great. Looking forward to see some nice results ;)

Coming from kayl, it's always ghetto ;)
but nice and small, this one. i like it :slobber:

the_chad

09-19-2005, 06:16 PM

love your work kayl

cant wait to see some results

the_new_guy

09-20-2005, 02:16 AM

nice condenser, where did you get it from?

kayl

09-21-2005, 08:17 PM

Thanxs guys, yeah its small but getto.
When its finished its going in a box, so it wont matter what it looks like on the inside,
It how cold it gets.
The new guy I got the condensers from chilly almost a year ago.
I did all the wiring and finished first stage.
I used about 1.95m of 0.031” capillary line first stage, refrigerant is bbq r290 as usual.
Second stage im going to try 0.0355” and start off at 3.6m. I just waiting on a new evap and some copper pipe and end caps to finish second stage.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37393&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37394&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37395&stc=1

Sneil

09-21-2005, 08:35 PM

you got bbq propane down to -60 :shock:

impressive

kayl

09-21-2005, 10:24 PM

you got bbq propane down to -60 :shock:

impressive

thanxs sneil, on me c02 cascade i had first stage at -66c hx out with it loaded by secondstage at -100c :toast:
loaded im hoping for around -45c though slight vacuum :stick:

kayl

09-28-2005, 11:38 AM

did some more on the cascade.
this is the lowest temp so far.
decided to just use an old evap for now.
plan to load it Friday and tune it properly :toast:

first i tried no second stage desupaheater to make it neater.
but seconstage line to hx was quiet hot and after time cascade temps fell -9x's :mad:
it hard to decide (while no load testing) to run 3-5psig or 10hg without actually loading it real load to know how much charge.
no more tunning inside the house now says the boss :( (wife)

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37648&stc=1

TTmodder

09-28-2005, 11:50 AM

not more tunning side now says the boss :( (wife)
poor you :slap:

Gray Mole

09-28-2005, 11:52 AM

Nice work so far :toast:

I'm starting to look around for 1150 now, after the next couple projects I'd like to work with more like -90 loads instead of -75. That last R23 Cascade just held -75 but only 120-130w or so.

Really compact design, and despite being somewhat ghetto it's doing just what it's s'posed to :woot:

Looking forward to your tuning and load results :cool:

Gray

afireinside

09-28-2005, 12:23 PM

you got bbq propane down to -60 :shock:

impressive

Kayl is the propane god :toast:

Nice cascade as always kayl, but have you ever heard of pipe benders? ;) When will you get to see load temps?

jinu117

09-28-2005, 12:29 PM

awww... pipe benders... I don't like it too much most of time myself. Maybe because I have cheap one but when making 180 degree bends for 3/8" pipes, I do get some concave shape which I don't like... :P

kayl

09-30-2005, 07:51 AM

poor you :slap:

i know its cold in the shed damit :mad:

Nice work so far :toast:

I'm starting to look around for 1150 now, after the next couple projects I'd like to work with more like -90 loads instead of -75. That last R23 Cascade just held -75 but only 120-130w or so.

Really compact design, and despite being somewhat ghetto it's doing just what it's s'posed to :woot:

Looking forward to your tuning and load results :cool:

Gray

thanxs garry, yes -7x temps gets boring quick doesnt it, i know when i was doing co2 all i was think was i want -100c have to find ethylene.
that is some nice temps though for the refrigerant ya using.

Getto is the only way for me, as hard as i try it never look new does it.
But its how the cascade is built that matters as you said.
Loading and tunning as we speak, installing windows on me epox mobo
and into the shed it goes to bench and tune. :toast:

noload its been running an hour and at -96c 1Hg and 205psig -45c hx out temps -44c liquid out temps 2nd stage.
just need to add a little insulation to the evap (its really cold on the outside of the evap lack of insulation)

Kayl is the propane god :toast:

Nice cascade as always kayl, but have you ever heard of pipe benders? ;) When will you get to see load temps?

yeah i would love to see what r507 does on this thing.
If it doesnt leak in a few months ill pay someone to charge it for me. :toast:

pipebenders, its hard to believe , but i actually did use one in most places (tight areas)

yes jinu117 i got those same ones, every 3/8" it puts nice crease in pipe and 1/2 goes flat a little, but it works :clap:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37711

kayl

09-30-2005, 11:24 AM

this is idle going into bench.
I tunned it for 1.5Hours playing around 0-3psig.
then at end i tried vacuum.
likes 10-15hg for sure.
only problem is the second stage overheated.
i need to add a fan to cool the rotaries.
i have done it in the past cause they go over 100c
after a few hours
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37713&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37714&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37715&stc=1

404Power

09-30-2005, 11:43 AM

ABSOLUTELY AWESOME!
I love these rotarys! :D :banana:

the_new_guy

09-30-2005, 08:25 PM

cool man!
how much is a 1hp rotary more or less than a regular hermetic

edited

wdrzal

09-30-2005, 09:01 PM

They are all hermetic. Hermetic is a fancy word for sealed.The black outer shell that the compressor is in makes it hermetic.

Gray Mole

09-30-2005, 11:16 PM

Comp-Freak

10-01-2005, 02:22 AM

OKay, that rocks :woot: well done ;)

eva2000

10-01-2005, 08:05 AM

awesome kayl... love the cpu evap mounting :D

_HL4E_HalfLife_

10-01-2005, 11:58 AM

They are all hermetic. Hermetic is a fancy word for sealed.The black outer shell that the compressor is in makes it hermetic.

Hes referring to a reciprocator compressor i believe.

kayl

10-02-2005, 06:08 AM

You're benching 3D at -107...

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :woot:

That's a nice piece of work, Kayl :slobber:

What kind of heatload you figure it's running at approximately?

Running it at 10-15" loaded is pretty amazing, but -107 under load is just fantastic. Well impressed!

Gray

thats not load its idle going into load.
I still need to add insultoin now.
Was benhing it tonight heavy over and over and its falling under -100c.
I had a large fan blowing on the compressors tonight and this section here need insulation now especially the 1/4 as that the 1150 liquid line.
but that will have to wait awhile ME all out $$ for a while.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37788&stc=1

eva2000

10-02-2005, 06:15 AM

ouch what happened there ?

Gray Mole

10-02-2005, 06:37 AM

Yup, a little more insulation will probably improve temps a little.

Considering the best 2 stage cascades out there generally bench under -100c you're doing quite well with it. I'm sure a little more tweaking will make all the difference. Any exposed frost is stealing your coling power, so more insulation and more until it's all hidden :)

Gray

SlackeR

10-02-2005, 06:54 AM

ouch what happened there ?

It is the HX out. He insulated it with "great stuff", and burnt it with his torch while brazing i guess. No big deal ;)

kayl

10-03-2005, 12:00 AM

ouch what happened there ?

yep as slacker said thats the capillary end for second stage.
i had to change capillary line to fit this evap.
Still waiting on more copper to try differnt round evap.

thanxs garry, ya reminding me or garry (original we all know :toast: )
ya any good at water chillers :stick:
i think insulation second stage and ill get -100c.
I had it benching prime today -100c for 20mins. top of second stage compressor hit 78c. Have to watch those temps they get friggen hot.
It was 28c in the shed at lunch, got to get ready for summer. :woot:
so with insulation ill get -100c which is my aim prime for an hour pority 10. I havnt seen anyone do that yet.

the_new_guy

10-03-2005, 02:21 AM

cool temps man,
we are just getting done with summer temps are finally bearable.

SlackeR

10-03-2005, 05:34 AM

Hah don't you just love internationality?
I am getting ready for winter. Damn cold. My hands were all blue when i got to school on my bike this morning. I am definitelyt NOT built for that. I am better in 50c ;)
I like that cascade. rotaries makes for some nice temps :toast:

the_new_guy

10-03-2005, 05:55 AM

grass is always greener on the other side!
lol

SlackeR

10-03-2005, 12:18 PM

Might be.. I don't complain. I love snow, if it wasn't so damn cold. Anyways it's all about clothing ;)
If it gets too cold i'll just go to work. At least i can always have my 40+ C there :D
But hey, India is pretty hot too. You probably haven't even seen snow.

Can't you do anything to the compressors? Adding refrigerant wont even help i guess..

the_new_guy

10-03-2005, 06:21 PM

India has almost all types of climate, i am in delhi winters min are 2-8C at night,
summers go up to 45*C, Min max for today are 34C and 24C, it snows allot in the north, it rains allot in the east and south. man we are getting of-topic.

kayl

10-05-2005, 07:39 AM

yeah the slacker i have only ever seen snow when i went to europe for holiday.
slacker the roataries jun normal 70c and close to 100c. i think garry or some one said they can handle as much as 110c.
I know runmc used mesh wire on his compressors as heat sinks.

I just use a fan blowing cool air over them seems to keep them under 100c

the new guy we get similar temps.

today i was driving around for work and look what i come across jusrt sitting in rubish bin along with other crap.
ehehehe heaven on earth. cascade insulation city.
SO later that night after work i jump in the car and picked up this.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38141&stc=1

kayl

10-05-2005, 07:43 AM

heheeh i dont know where to keep it all, the wife is gonna cut sick when she see it all.
Time to start benching prime.
It will run for 1hour here it goes. :toast:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38142&stc=1

kayl

10-05-2005, 08:01 AM

I was just checking mobo its been holding 10mins now -99.7.
i found condensation is just pooling everywhere damit.
so i added paper tissues to soak it all up and insulate.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38143&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38144&stc=1

kayl

10-05-2005, 09:15 AM

ok it crashed once but its finally finished.
cascade has been on since 9:30pm now till 1200am.
almost time to switch off.
this is prime for an hour, its slowly getting colder the longer i leave it.
and prime straigh after.
evap -100.5c
1st stage out -48.7c
liquid line 1150 out -46.7c
suction line 1150 before compressor -22.7c

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38162&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38163&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38164&stc=1

n00b 0f l337

10-05-2005, 12:27 PM

Time to break out nail coating.

imdying

10-05-2005, 12:30 PM

Have you considered a conformal coating like Phil mentions in the third to last post here http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=75095 ?

kayl

10-05-2005, 05:16 PM

yes noob i think i might have to extend that nail posih a little.
imdying yes conformal coating works quiet well. i did my epox socket A mobo a while back.
when i get a NF4 mobo ill look at doing that one conformal coating.
the nail polish can be removed though thats why i went for that this time.

imdying

10-05-2005, 06:09 PM

Yeah, normally they can't tell if you've overclocked something to death... conformal coating is a bit of a give away... no RMA for you!! :D

the_new_guy

10-05-2005, 06:35 PM

amazing man!!

Exa.bit

10-05-2005, 10:03 PM

Very nice temps, congrats!!! :toast:

kayl

10-08-2005, 09:14 AM

i had some pipe cut and some end caps milled.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38258&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38257&stc=1

Tonic

10-08-2005, 09:58 AM

It will be a neat oil separator :D Did you use a lathe for making those end caps?

the_new_guy

10-08-2005, 08:32 PM

Cool Sep,

kayl

10-09-2005, 05:48 AM

tonic i didnt do it, i got someone to make them for me on a lathe.
I only got one for now. might have to think about few more latter for other projects.

gkiing

10-09-2005, 12:12 PM

Nice end caps, but it would be less expensive if you just used a pipe cap.

the_new_guy

10-09-2005, 07:12 PM

this will look cooler

kayl

11-01-2005, 08:36 AM

Time to swap and change.
Been testing new evap on single stage and found sweet spot.
Time to switch to cascade now and see how it goes.
Got to love the way oil holds propane hey guys.
From previous tests I have decided to remove the suction line hX and see how it goes running deeper vacuum and a new evap.
I have a new drier for second stage and have moved the second stage Desupaheater to different location to make it smaller.

What do ppl think is the best point to mount an enclosure onto the cpu.
ie mount plate ontop of the enclosure.
or on bottom of enclosure with some machining :confused:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39354&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39355&stc=1
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kayl

11-01-2005, 08:40 AM

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39359&stc=1

Marvin

11-01-2005, 04:46 PM

Kayl, what are the dimensions of the PVC reduction ?
regards

kayl

11-01-2005, 07:28 PM

Kayl, what are the dimensions of the PVC reduction ?
regards

the large end of pvc ID is 60mm and the outer is 71mm
then top section is 34mm inner ID and 43mm outer and is 25mm heigh.

There is enough room to add some sticky back foam if need. Didn’t seem to need it on single stage testing, but extra wouldn’t hurt I guess.
I might mount from the bottom so can add insulation at the top.

kayl

11-04-2005, 09:54 AM

i moved the desupaheater again.
found a better spot.
I added the stainless steel braid to the suction line tonight ready for ethylene.
I also piped r290 through pipes on the hx to see what ones im gonna use this time.
at a later date when i get some more pipe ill add a coil SLHX to see if any gains.
before i was cooling before and after the hx with slhx loop.
using SLHX after the hx isnst a good idea, ya end up heating the 1150 liquid line at load.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39480&stc=1

Jack

11-04-2005, 01:12 PM

you can see that quite some knowledge and experience went into that cascade... very nice :toast:
Let's hope it will show some nice temps :D

kayl

11-05-2005, 02:14 AM

thanxs jack, yes i have been practicing cascaded alot over this year, i hope that this one stays together once finally finished as a bench cascade.

kayl

11-16-2005, 09:55 AM

ok testing enclosure before i finalise the enclosure and get some plates made from stainless steel.
S775 need to mount high so here test run with insulation just placed over

kayl

11-16-2005, 10:06 AM

i did a wood plate tonight to test cascade i just couldnt wait :toast:

well final testing of enclose, evap and enclsore should work well when finshed.
i have sent drawing off for stainless steel plate.
I can wait til it comes back. :D
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39949&stc=1
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jinu117

11-16-2005, 10:17 AM

Uhmmm :)
COol Cool COOL :)
Is the stainless steel just bottom plate or total enclosure? :)

Jack

11-16-2005, 10:19 AM

nice temps :D

the new evap is looking good aswell :toast:

kayl

11-16-2005, 09:47 PM

Uhmmm :)
COol Cool COOL :)
Is the stainless steel just bottom plate or total enclosure? :)

Just hold down plate, it will be located on top of plastic reducer, sitting flush with the enclosure, there will be a slight groove in top of enclosure where the mount plate will sit. But at a later date I could also do a stainless steel enclosure. But for now the plastic reducer is real easy to machine and can change evap design with ease without any changes to enclosure or mounting plate.

nice temps :D

the new evap is looking good aswell :toast:

thanxs jack, I cant wait to finish insulation on secondstage, currently I only had time to finish cascade last nigh, vacumm and charge it quickly, just placed insulation on copper tubes so there are lots of air gaps.
Seems that first stage is removing a lot more heat now than before, (the air leaving the first stage condenser was much warmer, than when I had the cascade loaded at -100c benching priming using a suction line hx on the secondstage cooling the first stage liquid line)
So I need to retune first stage again to get better temps on first stage (currently only -40c as compared to -50c before (with ) noload.

kayl

11-18-2005, 07:35 AM

well i had to throw out some furniture today, so quick clean and reshuffle :toast:

i ran out of time but the pc is gonna sit on top of the cascade and mount flat.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40030&stc=1
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wdrzal

11-18-2005, 08:12 AM

Kayl I would be a little leary of your end cap design since they fit inside the tube instead of over and down the outside. As the copper tube is put under pressure it expands slightly,how much depends on the pressure. This over a period of cycles can cause the braze to crack since that flat disc won't expand at the same rate, and the end to shoot out like a bullet. I can't tell you if they will fail or how many cycles it may take but wanted to mention this so your head isn't above those caps if there is a failure. picture the "tube expanding" and the lip you made for the braze "not expanding" since its much thicker flat disc and ridgid. I would use 1 on the bottom since it will be facing the base plate but I would use a standard tube cap for the top. Just some safety concerns Kayl Walt

ps I didn't notice the cap design till today or I would have mentioned it sooner

wdrzal

11-18-2005, 08:20 AM

Any time you join 2 pieces of metal,especially ones that hold high pressure,its not only the strength of the weld you must consider but how one expands and contracts in relation to the other or the weld will fatigue and eventruly fail after a number of cycles.

kayl

11-18-2005, 08:33 AM

thanxs walt for future oil seps i will use end caps.
i dont use it that much so i may look at changingg again in few months to dual evap.
ill change it then as i dont want that to happen, it makes sense now ya pointed it out.

wdrzal

11-18-2005, 08:50 AM

Gray Mole

11-18-2005, 10:08 AM

I think it would start leaking first before a total failure but you cant be sure, its just some things most don't consider when designing something. just don't hover your head above the sep when under pressure , then the most that could happen is you getting hurt falling of the roof when your up there patching the hole. LOL

hehe diy disasters :D

I never thought about that either Walt, glad you pointed it out. I used full caps on the phase sep on my auto so no worries, and the water hx on the chiller is flatcapped but that's just the water part of it.

NIIIIICE temps so far, Kayl :toast:

Looks like the block is running nice for ya, and the system is set up just right for real load testing. You really are a master cascader :clap:

Gray

aussie_guy00000

11-18-2005, 04:33 PM

I think it would start leaking first before a total failure but you cant be sure, its just some things most don't consider when designing something. just don't hover your head above the sep when under pressure , then the most that could happen is you getting hurt falling of the roof when your up there patching the hole. LOL

You've got a point there, but the temp of the cylinder drops to -40+, now the pressure on the inside of the cylinder might cause it too expand slighty, but the very low temps are going to cause it to contract too. Perhaps even counter-acting the pressure expansion. Of course that's just a guess, would have to run a simulation to find out for sure.

wdrzal

11-18-2005, 04:49 PM

::EVOLUTiON::

11-18-2005, 05:54 PM

well i had to throw out some furniture today, so quick clean and reshuffle :toast:

i ran out of time but the pc is gonna sit on top of the cascade and mount flat.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40030&stc=1

MY GOD!

:woot: :woot: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

awesome kayl!

aussie_guy00000

11-18-2005, 07:09 PM

cold temps make metal and braze brittle,all the more reason to be concerned. as to simulation how many airliners have metal fatigue from presurizing and depresurizing? Bulkheads fail rivits pop from too many cycles.

Obviously fatigue due to to thermal expansion and pressure changes is a concern, as it always will be when extreme temperature fluctuations are experienced. But comparing similar pressure and temperature differences on a model (airliner) 1000x larger then this HX, the geometry scale has to be taken into account, i.e pressure (PSI)- the total load due to the pressure is dependant on the surface area, and thermal expansion is a function of temperature difference and geometry size, meaning it will expand proportional to the size of the element experiencing the thermal load (perhaps 1mm/1m). On something as big as an airliner, this is a major concern, but something as small this hx, well you get the idea. I'm in no way saying you're wrong, in fact I agree, but just observing that the pressures cause an expansion in the chamber ignores a billion other factors at work. But in saying that, the warnings you give are duely justified and should be observed. Cheers

wdrzal

11-18-2005, 10:11 PM

kayl

11-19-2005, 05:26 PM

managed to mount it today
its about 32c today outside.
if ig et a chance tonight ill tune it and bench :D

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40124&stc=1

aussie_guy00000

11-19-2005, 11:03 PM

While the geometry in scale is quite different so is the pressure, a airliner only has to withstand pressure differentials of less than 6psi per cycle while a seperator may have a differential of 300 to 500 psi per cycle.

Does it really get as high as 500psi?, sorry, i'm a little new to cascades and DD units. I'm just a regular Mech Eng student, so we've only touched on fridgy stuff, will be doing a whole unit on it next semester but :banana:, might suggest we do an analysis on one of these systems :D .

SustaiN

11-20-2005, 01:40 AM

WOW! That is really great results! nice work man!

kayl

11-20-2005, 05:20 AM

thanxs sustain, aussie guy. 500 is massive. normally static is under 200psi
if blockage was to occure maybe pressure would be extreme.
high pressure cut offs are good to stop that.

cascade is running a little ruff, first stage mainly, seems to be battleing

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40157
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Gray Mole

11-20-2005, 05:38 AM

Well your low stage is keeping things nice and col that's for sure :clap:

How high temp is the high stage getting pulled to? I suppose as long as the HX is steady you're all right, but you're benching under -100 and that's just fantastic.

Really good work mate :toast: That block certainly isn't holding you back :D

Gray

Master_G

11-20-2005, 09:05 AM

Below -100C benching, awesome work Kayl! :clap:

G

kayl

11-20-2005, 04:51 PM

thanxs master g.

Well your low stage is keeping things nice and col that's for sure :clap:

How high temp is the high stage getting pulled to? I suppose as long as the HX is steady you're all right, but you're benching under -100 and that's just fantastic.

Really good work mate :toast: That block certainly isn't holding you back :D

Gray

With noload it was -45c hx and 2nd stage -111c out and liquid ethylene line leaving the hx was around -35c.
Last night hx out was -40c to 41c (around 0psig) and liquid line out was around -27c to memory.
Not sure if probe is loose or something.
At one stage high hx out fell to -34c out so I attached gauges and added more r290 ( took too much r290 out first stage trying to get it colder) and it was good again.
I did add quite a lot more ethylene again, that short capillary line and straight ethylene is making first stage work quiet hard. Die temps running that new prime program I got it was showing die temps as -48c.
i only got about 40mins last night to play.
Will have a better bench next friday night.

n00b 0f l337

11-20-2005, 04:57 PM

*bow to the ghetto cascade master*

aussie_guy00000

11-20-2005, 05:17 PM

I'll join the chorus of people saying nice work kayl :clap:, you've got a serious kick ass system there.

the_new_guy

11-20-2005, 07:26 PM

Amazing kayl amazing

HawainPanda

11-20-2005, 09:32 PM

shoot kayl, its been a while since i've been here...I can't beleive you've made so much progress!!! Freakin awsome!!! 1hp...dam that's alot of power!

kayl

11-22-2005, 08:20 PM

thanxs guys.
hawianpanda last i remember see ya, you just milled that evap ar work. that was quiet a while ago now.
did a little tunning today in the heat.
temps are still rocking in 35c heat. I htink that little pvc reducer works sweet :toast:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40285&stc=1

Shinuza

11-23-2005, 02:19 AM

Oh yeah, nice under that heat :slobber: :toast:

Jack

11-23-2005, 03:54 AM

is the pvc reducer pushing against the back of the evap (like a Vapochill clambshell)?

kayl

11-23-2005, 04:03 AM

is the pvc reducer pushing against the back of the evap (like a Vapochill clambshell)?

thanxs Shinuza, jack yes bare evap against reducer. its about 11m thick.
i ant farmiliar with the vapochill.

PkG.1337

11-23-2005, 11:30 PM

Xtreme!!

piotres

11-24-2005, 06:29 AM

Wow more than -100*c with load :slobber: ..I'm dreaming of it :toast:

Regards
Peter

stockhatch

11-24-2005, 09:36 AM

Yet again kayl builds a kick ass system. Gratz on the temps pal!

eva2000

11-24-2005, 09:45 AM

awesome kayl... sure is nice -100C under load! wonder how 3700+ clawhammer would do :D

kayl

11-25-2005, 12:00 AM

Wow more than -100*c with load..I'm dreaming of it

Piotres, with c02 you will have a lot of fun still. When ya get bord of it ya will some how find a way to get some 1150 to get ya to -100c. Just

Thanxs stockhatch, I cant wait to ya finish your cascade, hope ya can join the -100c club also.

awesome kayl... sure is nice -100C under load! wonder how 3700+ clawhammer would do
we will have to see hey, hmm clawhammer, no cold bug
that would complete the bench cascade ;)

piotres

11-25-2005, 04:30 AM

Piotres, with c02 you will have a lot of fun still. When ya get bord of it ya will some how find a way to get some 1150 to get ya to -100c. Just

Don't worry Kayl :) ...I have some R1150 in my garage :cool: ...but that isn't easy to get a -100*C loaded even with R1150 and CPEV :eek:

I have a Danfoss SC18B on second and Tecumseh CAE2412A on first so not so powerful comps as your's (specially my tecumseh) :rolleyes:

Regards
Peter

kayl

11-25-2005, 05:05 AM

peter i like to cheat and just use big compressor, that way ya dont cut ya self short on what temps you can get out of the cascades, hehe bigger is betta the girls always say.

What size Hp and cc/rev are those compressors. ( SC18B on second and Tecumseh CAE2412A.)

I found some nice compressors the other day, 1/4Hp r12 with 14.14cc, they are bigger than 1/3/Hp compressors. When I get them, they will be my first new compressors eva. :woot:
Just go to start saving the $$ again.

piotres

11-25-2005, 02:13 PM

kayl

12-02-2005, 09:49 AM

i poped the hood tonight on cpu, only gained 4fsb, now does 36seconds supa Pi.
but still better than before.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40627&stc=1
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hatemi

12-02-2005, 10:55 AM

So you're the one who has used all your wifes nail polish ;)

How much suctionline insulation you have there? liiks like its something like 5cm :D

the_new_guy

12-02-2005, 07:00 PM

cool kayl
what are the loaded temps

Shinuza

12-02-2005, 08:04 PM

No insulation problem with IHS removed?

[XC] moddolicous

12-02-2005, 08:22 PM

Kayl, some people use AS Ceramique with LN2/cascade, so that might be worth a try.

Shinuza

12-02-2005, 08:29 PM

Kayl, some people use AS Ceramique with LN2/cascade, so that might be worth a try.

According to this : http://www.arcticsilver.com/ceramique.htm

You are perfectly right, it can peak @ -150°c while As5 is out for -50°c :fact:

kayl

12-03-2005, 05:44 PM

So you're the one who has used all your wifes nail polish ;)

How much suctionline insulation you have there? liiks like its something like 5cm :D

it looks better on me than her:slapass:
don’t know it’s a few layers thick, it work well in the 35c heat.

cool kayl
what are the loaded temps

heres idle and loaded temps for ya.

No insulation problem with IHS removed?

the enclosure pushes agains the insualtion around the socket
air tight socket = no condensation.

Kayl, some people use AS Ceramique with LN2/cascade, so that might be worth a try.

thanxs moddolicous, thats the stuff i use, cascade runs at artound 10hg low side and 250psig
its strange when i run Spi at idle vcore is 1.725v, that at load durring sPi run its around 1.8v vcore.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40682&stc=1&d=1133660588
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Shinuza

12-03-2005, 07:25 PM

Dude
Please fill this :http://www.hopepastures.org/images/Web-adoption-form.jpg

Yeah it's for horses :lol:

f00t

12-03-2005, 07:39 PM

how hot are those two rotaries getting in there? i had trouble keeping my small 1/2 hp at a descent temps without a large charge

kayl

12-03-2005, 07:39 PM

Dude
Please fill this :http://www.hopepastures.org/images/Web-adoption-form.jpg

Yeah it's for horses :lol:

:cheer2: ??, i dont get??

kayl

12-03-2005, 07:41 PM

Dude
Please fill this :http://www.hopepastures.org/images/Web-adoption-form.jpg

Yeah it's for horses :lol:

:cheer2: ??, i dont get??

how hot are those two rotaries getting in there? i had trouble keeping my small 1/2 hp at a descent temps without a large charge

hot, i have to run with a fan to stop them overheating on me if running for a few hours. hanve measure for a while, they can get over 100c though.
yeah good cold return does help, suction line on secondstage return is -50c and the first stage is around -40c.

Shinuza

12-03-2005, 08:33 PM

:cheer2: ??, i dont get??

Please adopt me :stick:

wdrzal

12-03-2005, 08:51 PM

Please adopt me :stick:

Don't fall for it kyle he's to old to claim as a dependant. At 21 his ears fall off and he will eat you alive!!!!! probably out of house and home too.

Shinuza

12-03-2005, 09:30 PM

Don't fall for it kyle he's to old to claim as a dependant. At 21 his ears fall off and he will eat you alive!!!!! probably out of house and home too.
lol, you figured it out :D

kayl

12-16-2005, 09:35 AM

well i loaded new dfi motherboard tonight. seems i get alot more frost on this mother board than the epox, i guess its because on the dfi on one side there is no chips that give off alot of heat.

at least with this mobo i can read die temps below 0c unlike the EXpox mobo

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41239&stc=1&d=1134754471
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eva2000

12-16-2005, 09:44 AM

-63C wow torturing the motherboard already :)

Icy

12-16-2005, 09:47 AM

humm would one of those heat mats used on the vapochill LS help with mobo condensation? If so then someone on the forum should start to make them :D

kayl

02-10-2006, 08:23 AM

eva2000 yeah the mobo is getting a hard time, lots of ice hehe.
cant wait to get the ram running on the ram Booster ya sending me.:toast:

Icy yeah it seems on the DFi i get alot more ice near the ram forming on the capacitors, the EPOX mobo didnt have that issue with the regulators being so close to the socket.
i havnt been able to get the heaters here in australia yet.

i added some capillary line tonight, redid the insulation and added suction line sleeving.
Also removed the old enclosure and added a new properly machined enclosure and got rid of that wooded hold down plate and replaced it with a stainless steal one.:toast:

kayl

02-17-2006, 07:51 AM

little update, i check probe tonight to see if temps are accurate :toast:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43571&stc=1&d=1140182337
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kayl

02-17-2006, 07:55 AM

this is at 1.76v at 2.868Mhz on a 754 socket clawhammer 1mB cache.
-110c idle ;)

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43580&stc=1&d=1140191690
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fatty

02-17-2006, 08:49 AM

Very Very nice mate :slobber:

4everCS

02-17-2006, 08:57 AM

Wow... You have lots of brains kayl!! I hope that someday I'll be able to tackle a cascade. Yours looks great!

kayl

02-17-2006, 09:16 AM

thanxs guys. 4everCS ya know i learnt it all from XS over the years.

i only have a 9800 GPu so scores arnt the best.
heres a bench of 3dmark01 and sdmark05 at end with min temp results.
Enclosure is a little iced but i haven’t got around to insulating with sticky back foam yet.
At -10xc what can ya expect though.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43590&stc=1&d=1140197105
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