Should i get a Xeon system?

[eBoy0]

Thanks to a bud of mine, he brought up some key points of xeons, and i was wondering if i should build myself one? It'll be a pair of LV's so they can overclock like crazy, i plan on putting this system on a dual evap so it'll overclock like crazy.. what kind of positives will i be seeing in the upcoming 1-2 years when appz become multithreaded over the 4800+ x2 which i was planning on buying. What do you guys think? I'll get like a x800pro VIVO and flash it and that'll be the system.... will it be a monster @ 4 gigz a core? 2 cores w/ HT..
I have a 3700+ Sandy @ 3.32 w/ 7800GTX SLI so if i want to game i'll it on that machine..

[KaptainBlaZzed]

LV Xeons rock!!

but if you are planning on putting it under an evap i would go with the X2, just because of the cost :stick:

either would be an awesome system.

[freecableguy]

If you want to chat about high-performance extreme Xeon systems, I'm your man!

[eBoy0]

Yet the xeon system alone will be around 700$ while the x2 alone is 900$... the dual evap will not cost me much >.< i'll build it myself but i can see the xeon system alone will cost less than a single 4800 x2 and a evap.

[KaptainBlaZzed]

you would also get more instruction sets (SSE3, etc) with the X2

[eBoy0]

you would also get more instruction sets (SSE3, etc) with the X2

True.. but i can see the xeons creaming the x2 @ multithreaded appz easy at 4.0+ each core. The only thing i would be worried about is the AMD k9..

O and Cableguy get on msn so we can talk. :banana:

[Duvie]

True.. but i can see the xeons creaming the x2 @ multithreaded appz easy at 4.0+ each core. The only thing i would be worried about is the AMD k9..

O and Cableguy get on msn so we can talk. :banana:


First off the 900 is a bit high...You could get a 4200-4400 in the 500-600 range, then a decent OCing mobo for 100-120 range....

If you can get that X2 to 3ghz how will dual 4.0ghz xeons beat it??? Heck P-D or XE now at 4ghz could barely beat the 4800+ if at all in most apps....So get your facts straight, and dont overlook the fact you would be ocing the K8 as well...K9...LOL!!! The K8 beats the Intel chips now..Why look to the future yet when you cant beat the present...

The fact that current opterons at 2.2ghz range beat the 3.6ghz noconas makes me think 4ghz does not insure that a 2.8ghz X2 wouldn't be faster still...

The thing I can agree about is you will have effetively 4 cpus so in multitasking of 4 cpu intensive apps you could do better then the P-Ds do definitely. Whether it will translate into faster then the X2 except in extreme multitasking or even multitasking of just the exact right programs may be a very minute thing to base a system on....But if you are not really interested in the best performance I am sure you can justify INtel all the time....I see it a lot in this forum. However if it is what you are comfortable with I can see that as well....

[eBoy0]

Hmmm, wow... just thought the xeons would do better i guess i'll get another AMD then the 4400+ looks, it's just i didnt want to spend alot of money on a rig but still have it perform VERY well, which is why i thought XEON, i'm not going to be gaming on it just doing average daily things and graphic, 3d stuff, websites stuff like that, so the 4400+ is the way to go?

Do you know that the Xeons i'm getting are prestonia lv's??

[Duvie]

well basically the cheaper or lower end the chip the better for either is the smart thing since yuou will be ocing the piss out of it....The Xeon mobo will cost you more then 2x the X2 mobo....

I wish they had some reasonable price points on a dual dual core opteron setup....even the 175 (equaivalent to a 4400 but as a sckt 940) is higher comparatively to X2 chiops. Then you pay more for sckt 940 mobos and perhaps even ECC memory.


Dont get me wrong the dual 4ghz xeons will rock....Likely be better then the XE 840 at same speeds. Just remember with the ocing and cooling you are specifying the X2 has some lofty heights that can be reached.

MY X2 4400+ with XP-90 air cooling w/ decent cfm 90mm fan(not a delta by any means) and a conservative 1.50v (1.35v stock) hit 2.664ghz stable...benches as high as 2.7ghz but I wouln't claim it was stable by any means but I can pump out some pics and benches....You would do so much better cause you should be able to deliver more vcore...By the way my temps are in the mid 50's at the 2.664ghz range...

[Duvie]

Oh addon....3d stuff is going to do very well on that 4 cpu system. That is a toss-up...you need to have some ppl do dome comparison testings...in cinebench you would do very well, but in some of the testing I have seen in 3dmax even the XE didn't outperform the stock 4800+ so I wonder if 4ghz xeons could a 3ghz X2....

The 3d cad stuff are some of the only apps that seem well situated for using all of the 4 VIRTUAL cores you would have....

I have seen where each HT core as the ability to add 15-20% verus with HT off...Tht could help to level the playing field for sure...

What specific apps will you be using??? I have 3dsmax7, ADT2004, Autocad 2005, Povray (tester), and a few other trial versions...

[eBoy0]

Well the 840 XE will need 4.6 gigz to beat the xeons at 4gigz.
The mobo will not cost me 2x more, i found one for 100$
Asus pc-dl rev 1.05, i think overall 2 cores w/ HT will match any X2... just look at this way man.. 700$ for a FULL xeon system... 600$ for an x2.
Not too much into CAD.. but; photoshop,apophysis,illustrator, cinema 4d, 3d studio, Bryce ect.

[Duvie]

Well then get it...

The apps you listed will not be as strong with the 4ghz Xeons versus a 3ghz X2, IMO...Looking at photoshop CS2 benches recently and the X2 would be undstoppable here....dual G5's at 2.5ghz get like 48sec on a test file...the same test file I got 30sec (2.6ghz)...It scaled pretty linear with little care about ddr speed or bandwidth. I would expect it to be around mid 20's for a 3ghz X2. I will round up some scores for you. I think someone even did a xeon system in the comparisons. Cinema 4d will like the 4 cores but X2 will be strong. 3d studio is a mixed bag...Older versions like that were less multithreaded as its successor 3dsmax7 now.

700 for the system is a sweet deal and so is 100 dollars for that mobo....That may just be to good to pass up period....

[eBoy0]

How about, flash, dreamweave, ect?? Multithreaded appz aren't too common yet.

[(sin)morpheus]

Yeah, duvle these are prestonia core. Prestonia is basically a northwood xeon. Given that these clock so high and cost so little, they're amazing value. If he buys an x2 he will have to game on his x2. If he buys a dual xeon system seperate, he can game on his sandy and do work on his dualy. That way he has the best system for both situations and it cost him less than an x2 would. ;)

The HT will definetly help out in key applications. If he can get these to 4GHz+ they are going to mop the floor with a x2 at 3GHz.

P.S. Don't make your fanboyism towards amd so obvious. :D

[Ugly n Grey]

I own a lot of multi proc systems. None are Xeons. Yet there was a time when they all were...it's always what is best for what you need to do at the moment..the x2's are great performers for the cash...

[Duvie]

Yeah, duvle these are prestonia core. Prestonia is basically a northwood xeon. Given that these clock so high and cost so little, they're amazing value. If he buys an x2 he will have to game on his x2. If he buys a dual xeon system seperate, he can game on his sandy and do work on his dualy. That way he has the best system for both situations and it cost him less than an x2 would. ;)

The HT will definetly help out in key applications. If he can get these to 4GHz+ they are going to mop the floor with a x2 at 3GHz.

P.S. Don't make your fanboyism towards amd so obvious. :D


Start putting up or shutting up...Links please...cause you are wrong my friend...

Did some researcn and in that photoshop test noticeable ones I found were....

X2@2.7ghz = 28sec
P4 640 oc'd to 4.4ghz w/ 735ddr = 52sec
2.6(prestonia) xeons @3.1ghz = 38 sec
P-D 840 = 42sec

If we figure it scales perfectly (which it likely wont)

those 2.6's at 4.0ghz would be about 29sec

the P-D at 4.6ghz as suggested would only be 29sec...

Edit: I had already linked this twice in other threads...
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=28&threadid=1655195&enterthread=y

[(sin)morpheus]

Heh, you tell me to put up links then don't put any up yourself. Nice one. ;)

I'll get you some results, just let me do some googling.

[Duvie]

http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2005q2/athlon64-x2/index.x?pg=8

See where the 175 opteron is which is only a 2.2ghz dual core on a board likely using slower ECC ram....Look how it beats the 3.4ghz sizeably 10% in one test and 20% in the other..what would 3ghz or 800 more mhz do??? I am sure a bunch more...4ghz would lose here...

http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2005q2/athlon64-x2/index.x?pg=9

If you look here the 4800+ stock speed of 2.4ghz would be comparable to a 3.4ghz xeon setup...Likely noconas here so who knows how much enhanced prescott core stuff may help in this app...may not at all...However 600mhz more oC for 4ghz versus 600 moe mhz for an X2 setup...cmon we all know that AMD has a higher IPC and therefore like a 2.6ghz now is as fast as a 3.8ghz P4 we know that 600mhz of a P$ overclock would be 17.6% increase versus a 25% increase for the AMD X2....The X2 in cinema 3d would win....

pretty much in that whole review compare the 3.4ghz xeon versus the 4800+ X2...if the Xeon isn't ahead already it wouldn't be faster at 4.0ghz versus a 3.0ghz X2....


This is all common math and extrapolation of data here...What do you have so far???

[Duvie]

In actuality finding reviews of dual core 175 or 275's versus Xeons is tough...they just dont seem willing to test AMDs newer tech versus their older tech...

So here what you do...look at that techreport links...Notice how dual opteron 248's, which are (2) 2.2ghz chips (1mb cache a piece) are almost identical to a dual core opteron 175 which is a single chip with 2 cores at 2.2ghz with 1mb of cache for each core....Therefore for now you can find lots of links that show opterons versus xeons and just assume as much as the 252's (2.5ghz) beat up on the 3.6ghz xeons in a majority of the apps then you could deduct that 256's (if there was any at 3ghz) would beat 4ghz xeons cause once again 400mhz OC of an A64 is more then a 400mhz OC of a xeopn or P4....

[eBoy0]

Noconas suck... prestonia will outperform @ those benchies.

[Duvie]

Noconas suck... prestonia will outperform @ those benchies.


provide some links there as well.....You guys cannot be all talk...you need to prove what you state...

I use to think so about northwoods and prescotts as well until I saw how many apps had been optimised for the pressies (IE, SSE3)....Cannot say that on all applications. Though I do believe it in some. However testing showed that once the prescotts hit the higher 3.5-3.6ghz range it was in line with same speed northwoods...The added latency due to the lengthened pipe needed to be ramped up in speed to overcome this...The prescott had several enhancements...Added branch prediction, SSE3, improved HT, etc....

Find me a review showing a 3.6ghz prestonia (oc'd would be fine) versus a 3.6ghz nocona...in this case the higher fsb chips (800) of the noconas may very well be faster. If they were both able to be oc'd to same level it is likley the noconas would have a higher fsb and could help it in performance. Then you need to run apps that can utilize the added bandwidth. not all apps do....


they may be harder top OC due to prescoptt like heat...is that what you are saying???



Basically start backing up your statements with links...just cause you say doesn't mean I will take your word for it or except it to be true...I ran Intels exclusively for the last 3 years up until the beginning of this year so I am likely as knowledgeable about this then you INtel guys in here...So do n't think I am an AMD fanboy spewing out things I have heard...

[eBoy0]

Hmmm tough to find benchies on a prestonia...
lemme ask, what about 2 opteron 848 cores, what's that looking like, performance wise?

http://forums.2cpu.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67394&highlight=xeon+or+opteron%3F
Nocona VS prestonia

[Duvie]

I have a friend with dual 248's...only get the 848s if you want 4 way or quad cpus...

I would go with the xeons before opterons cause they cost more then the X2 in reality with the mobo needed and severely lack the ocing options you would get with the Xeons...

I say get the Xeons if you want. Dont let me cloud the situation. I am just saying that a 3ghz X2 would be pretty sweet and 4ghz dual xeons would not smoke them....

I looked at dual xeons before deciding in December 04 I was going to go sckt 939 A64 and wait for X2s....I was also looking at Asus PC-DL and getting (2) 2.4ghz (533fsb) models that I wanted to oc to 3.6ghz (18x200)...I new the noconas were hotter, but in actuality versus that link most of the better encoding apps are SSE3 optimised and even Tomshardware cpu roundup shows same clock prescotts best their northwood brother ini video encoding apps......I figure the key for prestonias were to get the fsb up to take advantage of the bandwidth. Noconas with low multi would have required higher FSB (possible limitiations) and likley use of expensive high end ram or dividers....

[eBoy0]

I'm all confused now... ok, which system would be for my overall value? A xeon or a 4400+ x2... i'm going to have to sell my 3700+ just to afford the x2, god this is hard to decide, because i can buy the xeons and then just let em sit while i get money for mobo/ram.

[KaptainBlaZzed]

go with the DX :stick:

2 computers are better than one :woot:

[eBoy0]

Actually that'll be 3 :) umm, there are just so many articles against the xeons... "old architecture", ect.. even though i wanna get the xeons the 4400+ x2 looks so good, the 3.6nocanos don't stand a chance against the 4400/4800 x2 @ stock... as duvie has pointed out.

[DriveEuro]

check out my sig. The 4th and 6th rig. Built each for just $500. The watercooled one was obviously a little more thouhg.

You'll pay $500 just for an X2. But an X2 will be leaps and bounds ahead of dual Xeon rig.

[Jeff]

For being old technology... the Xeons still perform pretty damn good against the X2 in multithreaded apps.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=56203&highlight=cinebench

[eBoy0]

Hmmm, i've heard those xeon puppies can do 3.8 on good air, how come your are so low? Yah i guess i'll go w/ the 4400+ x2, gatta find a buyer of my 3700+ sandy now :(