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Turok

08-08-2005, 06:20 PM

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5927/lcdguidego3.jpg

Last updated: March 20th 2008

Welcome to The LCD Buyer’s Guide. The purpose of this thread is to aid those who are planning on purchasing an LCD monitor in the near future to make the smartest purchasing decision, as well as to inform readers about some of the main characteristics of this technology. This thread will attempt to accommodate the needs of serious gamers, video enthusiasts, digital artists, regular application users, as well as users just looking for simple display to just surf the net or benchmark ;). Additionally, if you find any mistakes in this thread or a collection of grammatical errors, PM me and I’ll see of I can make these changes whenever I have time. I would greatly appreciate it.

Glossary:

First let us begin by addressing a few terminologies that may aid in the comprehension of liquid crystal displays:

Key:
Simple Term (long forms / Alternatives) = Definition and useful explanations. Note: In occasions, “Note:” will be used to point out common misinterpretations.

Terminologies:
TFT(Thin Film Transistor) = The technology behind LCD’s, which is a kind of transistor where a layer of thin film particles in each pixel bend when provided voltage in order to cover light or isolating colors from the backlight.
LED(Light-Emitting Diode) = Is a semiconductor diode based technology that emits light in response to an electric current, also known as an electroluminescence (EL) effect.
LCD(Liquid Crystal Display) = A type of TFT based display, more commonly used as computer monitors and television displays.
OLED(Organic Light-Emitting Diode) = A type of LED based display with organic compounds, more commonly used with small devices like cell phones.
VGA(Video Graphic Array) = An analogue interface, more common with old computer monitors and video cards, as well as CRT monitors.
DVI(Digital Visual Interface) = A digital interface, used as a standard for newer flat panel computer monitors.
Pixel = The smallest element of an image that can be individually processed in a video display system (dictionary.com). Physically speaking, each pixel on a color flat panel displays is comprised of a red, green, and blue diode, in addition to a white diode for very high luminance displays.
Pixel Pitch = The linear measurement of a unit square of pixel area, most commonly measured with flat panel displays as the diagonally length of a single pixel (excluding spacing) in millimeters (mm). Smaller
Screen Resolution = The measurement of unit pixels, usually measured by height and length in the following format: LENGTH x HEIGHT. For example: 800x600. Note: A higher screen resolution does NOT mean less anti-aliasing is needed. In this case, a high resolution with a small screen size would indicate pixels with small pixel pitches packed closer together, thus making aliasing (“jaggies”) less noticeable.
Native Resolution = The maximum screen resolution in terms of the total physical pixel area. Due to flat panel’s static pixel nature, higher virtual resolutions are impossible, while lower virtual resolutions have to be resized by a computer integrated in the display that creates filler pixels for virtual resolutions that are not divisible by two with the native resolution.
Dead pixels(Stuck pixels) = Damaged pixels or pixels that do not responding adequately to the signal it is receiving. This problem is more common with low-grade LCD’s.
Backlight = The form of illumination used for LCD displays. Backlighting methods include Incandescent light, ELP (Electroluminescent Panel), CCFL (Cold Cathode Fluorescent Lamps), HCFL (Hot Cathode Fluorescent Lamps), and more recently LED’s. ELP’s are more common with smaller devices, because they give more uniform backlighting but require a high AC power source. Larger displays, like LCD monitors and televisions, more commonly use either one or many white CCFLs that cover most of the color spectrum. LED backlighting, although expensive at the moment, may become the standard backlighting method of the future because of its abilities to turn off and on very quickly during operation, thus giving very dark levels while increasing power and response time efficiency.
Backlight Bleeding = An effect caused when some backlighting leaks out from the sides of the screen, resulting in lighter colored edges than the rest of the screen's surface.
Contrast Ratio = The light intensity between black/dark levels and white/light levels. Higher contrast ratios usually equates to better black/dark levels.
Luminance = Simply put, it’s the brightness level on a LCD, measured in nits or candelas per square meter (cd/m2). 1 nit = 1 cd/m2.
Viewing Angles = The minimum degree of angle at which a screen can be viewed without losing image quality, measured by the angle of a perpendicular viewing cone who’s tip touches each pixel. Note: Many companies will measure the angle by how “acceptable” the image quality is instead of the minimum change in image quality.
Response Time = The average time it takes a pixel to change from one color to another, measured in milliseconds (ms). Note: Response time is different for many combinations of color and contrast transitions.
Delay Time = The average time it takes a monitor from the retrieval of a frame by the computer to its execution as an image on the screen.
Input Lag = The effect resulting from a high delay time.
Tr(Time Rise) = [Usually] the response time from 90% to 10% brightness. Sometimes measured from 100% ‘on’ to ‘off’.
Tf(Time Fall) = [Usually] the response time from 10% to 90% brightness. Sometimes measured from ‘off’ to 100% ‘on’.
TrTf(Time Rising & Time Falling) = Simply put, it’s the sum between Tf and Tr (not the average). For instance, 5ms Tr + 3ms Tf = 8ms TrTf.
GTG(Gray-To-Gray / Grey-To-Grey) = Pixel response time measurement from one grey scale to another, and vice versa. GTG transitions are usually slower than WTB transitions.
White/Black(White-To-Black / WTB) = Pixel response time measurement from fully black to fully white, and vice versa. WTB transitions are usually faster than GTG transitions.
Motion Blur = An effect caused when pixel delay is enough with dynamic images that the image appears to be blurred. Note: Motion blur is a step below ghosting.
Ghosting: = An effect caused when pixel delay is enough with dynamic images that the image appears to have fading antecedents. Note: Ghosting is a step further from motion blur.
Mura Effect = An effect caused by an imperfection in the screen's homogeneity, and could be due to a factory error in the sealing process (more common with low grade LCD’s) or when too much pressure is applied on the screen. For illustrations or more information, go to: http://www.behardware.com/articles/5...ad-pixels.html
Color Banding = An effect caused by inaccurate color representation of the color scale, which results in the appearance of more monochromatic ‘bands’ of color in a smooth color gradient. For instance: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._example01.png
Bezel = A term for the plastic or metal frame/cover surrounding the actual display panel.
VESA(Video Electronics Standards Association) = A standardization organization for many aspects of a computer display like connectors, mounting system, power consumption, quality standards, etc. Their site: www.vesa.org/

Computer Display Resolutions:

Key:
Computer Display Standards = Resolution (Aspect Ratio)

Computer Displays:
MDA = 720x350 (72:35)
CGA = 160x200 (4:5), 320x200 (16:10), 640x200 (16:5)
Hercules = 720x348 (60:29)
Professional Graphics Controller = 640x480 (4:3)
MCGA = 320x200 (16:10), 640x480 (4:3)
8514 = 1024x768 (4:3)
VGA = 320x200 (16:10), 640x350 (64:35), 640x480 (4:3), 720x400 (9:5)
SVGA = 800x600 (4:3)
XGA = 640x480 (4:3), 1024x768 (4:3)
QVGA = 320x240 (4:3)
SXGA = 1280x1024 (5:4)
UXGA = 1600x1200 (4:3)
WUXGA = 1920x1200 (16:10)
WXGA = 1280x720 (16:9)
WSXGA / WXGA+ = 1440x900 (16:10)

Television Display Resolutions:
Note: Some TV res. are the same as some PC res.
Also note that Im not 100% sure about the true Interlaced common resolution :P

Key:
Television Display Standards = Resolution (Aspect Ratio)

Progressive Displays: (-p extension)
VGA 640x480
480p 720x480
576p - PAL Plus 720x576
720p 1280x720
1080p 1920x1080

Interlaced Displays: (-i extension)
Broadcast NTSC 440x330 (Stretched to VGA)
DV NTSC 480i ~720x350 - ~720x400
DV-PAL-576i 720x405
HDV & Broadcast 1080i 1440x810 (Stretched to 1080p)

Common Aspect Ratios:

5:4 = 640x512, 720x576, 1280x1024, 1800x1440, 2560x2048, etc.

4:3 = 320x240, 480x360, 640x480, 800x600, 832x624, 1024x768, 1152x864, 1280x960, 1400x1050, 1600x1200, 1920x1440

16:10 = 320x200, 1440x900, 1680x1050, 1920x1200, 2560x1600, 3840x2400, 7680x4800, etc.

16:9 = 1280x720, 1600x900, 1920x1080, etc.

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/2374/aspectratios6xw.gif

5:4 and 4:3 aspect ratios were more common with CRT’s and the early LCD’s. As applications started migrating to a widescreen format, newer flat panels started supporting wide screen as well. HDTV’s are commonly based on a 16:9 aspect ratio, while wide screen computer monitors use 16:10 aspect ratios.

Here is a comparison between 4:3 and 16:9 in Counter Strike: Source:
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6646/css7ra.gif
Source: http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49242

Computer Interfaces:

VGA

Supposedly VGA connectors can be modified from a PC to an HDTV without having to buy an expensive VGA to Component converter. I haven’t tried it myself, but it seems plausible considering that VGA connectors are simply analog RGB output cable like Component cables. For more info, scroll down to the “Links:” section under “Info / News:”. This would be useful for setting up Home Theater boxes. If anyone has tried this successfully, PM me so I can add a subsection about the actual mod.

Standard Cable:
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9817/cblvgasi2.jpg
Pin Arrangement:
http://img435.imageshack.us/img435/2702/vgapins9rk.gif

DVI

DVI can support up to UXGA, WUXGA and HDTV resolutions or a signal over 160MHz with a single cable. Higher frequencies and resolutions can be achieved with a dual set of links (Commonly seen with 30” QXGA or WQXGA displays) or multiple links if needed. Here are some more details about the DVI interface for any interested modders that want to experiment ;)

Standard Cable:
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3600/cbldvipo7.jpg
Connector Types:
http://img311.imageshack.us/img311/3253/dvitypes2tt.gif
Pin Arrangement:
http://img311.imageshack.us/img311/9293/dvipins6bg.gif

LCD’s vs. CRT’s

Here are a few comparisons that may aid in your decision between LCD's and CRT's:

Contrast Levels:
Any decent CRT will have much better contrast levels than a high-end LCD. LED backlighting could considerably improve LCD contrast ratio in the future, but the costs of such technology at the moment is very high relative to a regular CRT monitor with similar quality.

Delay Time:
LCD’s have higher input lags than CRT’s, but they are both virtually unnoticeable to humans. (See Response Time below for more info.)

Response Time:
CRT’s are much more responsive, with response times under 1ms. LCD technology however is becoming faster as time progresses, and it is said that anything under 8ms response time would be unnoticeable to humans. Though, in professional gaming it helps to reduce the sum of delays caused by computer input and output, and human of input and output. In the case of professional gaming, considering the input lag and response times of LCD technology, a CRT user could have a slight competitive advantage compared to a LCD user. In this case, a CRT would be a wiser choice.

Input Lag - Animated Wiki GIF Version:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/57/Input_lag_animated.gif
Input Lag - YouTube Video Version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi2OE6hSh00
Credits to adamsleath for the find.

Monitor Frequencies:
Despite most LCD’s have a low frequency of 60Hz, LCD’s do not flicker because all the pixels on a LCD refresh individually. On the other hand, a CRT has to constantly refresh the entire image with 3 electron beams of colors red, green, and blue. Although CRT’s under high frequencies may not seem to flicker, for some people it causes headaches to watch a CRT for long periods of times.

Color Depth:
CRT’s have a wider spectrum of colors, accurately representing 32-bit color (about 4.3 billion distinct colors) and theoretically capable of representing even more. At the moment, LCD’s can at most replicate Truecolor (24-bit or 16.8 million distinct colors), which is also dampened by cases where color banding is present or where color depth has to be sacrificed to 16.2 million distinct colors in favor of response time.

Focus & Geometry:
LCD’s are made up of millions of small colored pixels equally distributed throughout a flat surface, so the image looks equally well on the entire screen. On the other hand, CRT’s use an electron beam that projects over a curved lens. Newer CRT’s have a refractive lens that attempts to flatten the image, but this affects the sharpness of the picture the farther you view the image from the center of the screen. Because of this, widescreen CRT’s are not as common, since the difference the sharpness between the vertical extremes would be clearly differentiable from the (less sharp) horizontal extremes. Although, uneven backlighting and backlight bleeding is also a common problem with many LCD's, which in turn translates into uneven geometry. One of the objective when looking for LCD's is to simply find reviews that show LCD's that lack these defects if geometry is a big concern, and even so one could have the bad luck of getting a LCD with uneven backlighting or backlight bleeding. In this case, make sure the LCD has a warranty that will protect you against such defects so you can RMA it latter in case it shows up.

Sharpness & Resolution:
A high quality LCD’s is sharper per pixel at native resolution than a high quality CRT at its optimal resolution, because of the asymmetry that exists between the lens and the tube in a CRT monitor. With CRT’s a higher resolution usually results in a less sharp picture, while with LCD’s a lower resolution seems to result in a less sharp image. LCD’s are more restricted then CRT’s in terms of resolution scaling, because the differences between a native resolution and a non-native resolution tend to be so severe that it is best to always run the LCD at its native resolution. This is an important fact to consider if you’re intending to play games, since a higher resolution would require a better system to run the game smooth at native resolution, otherwise the higher video fidelity you were planning to achieve from a larger screen would be pointless. A screen from the same size, but with a larger pixel pitch (and lower resolution) would have a higher image quality. Thus, if you can not afford to run your most played game at high resolution, I would recommend sticking with a lower resolution screen with a small pixel pitch.

Durability:
the only part on a LCD that ages is the backlight. LCD’s commonly have a backlight that has a half-life of about 50,000 hours, resulting simply in a lower brightness level. If the backlight dies on a LCD, it is possible to replace it through the warranty. Apart from the backlighting, there is a chance of getting dead pixels. On the other hand, CRT’s ages in two ways: an oxide layer forms on the cathode of the electron gun, decreasing beam current, while at the same time the phosphor in the electron tube also ages and becomes less efficient. Most CRT’s half-life is about 10,000 to 20,000 hours. After each half-life, CRT’s lose both brightness and image quality.

Power consumption:
The power required to run an average LCD is about 1/3 the power needed to run an average CRT, and even less power is needed to run other flat panels like LED LCD’s and OLED displays. Less energy consumption in turn results in less heat dissipation as well.

Size, Portability & Ergonomics:
In terms of size, LCD’s are much smaller then CRT’s from all angles, but more noticeably in depth. In addition to size, LCD’s are much lighter as well, thus making them much more portable, although this is not to say that large flat panel displays are not heavy, they are just less heavy then their CRT counterpart. Ergonomically, some LCD’s are also sold quite stylishly with some companies using very discrete wall-mountable bezels, while others with elaborate glass or metal bezels. Most CRT’s, as new as they may be, they always seem to resemble old CRT’s from the early 90’s with cheap plastic bezels and glass screens. LCD panels usually come in two flavors: in glass/glossy screens, or in matte screens. Glossy screens usually give a sharper and darker image than the same panel with a matte screen, but matte screens are not as reflective. For dark, closed environments the glossy screens may make more sense; otherwise I would recommend a matte screen considering how annoying the reflectiveness becomes at times.

Marketing:
Whenever purchasing a monitors (or anything in general), one has to be aware of the marketing tricks companies use to beautify their products. With LCD’s often companies are not accurate about their response time ratings. At times when the average is expected, they publish the minimum time they achieved. In other instances, companies don’t give enough response time information. Another common marketing strategies company’s do is to claim colors that they actually can’t produce. The common marketing scheme seems to be to focus on the weaknesses the technology lacks to make it stand out from the comp

IYP

08-08-2005, 06:29 PM

:woot:

Turok

08-08-2005, 06:34 PM

:woot:

Indeed :D

If anyone thinks I should change something, please post.
Ill keep this Thread up to date as long as a better LCD is released
I will try to add other things latter on like:
* Prices
* Links with reviews
* LCD terms that some may not know
* News about upcoming tech and improvements
* And other stuff... :D

Enjoy your stay :toast:

Turok

Necromonger

08-09-2005, 01:08 AM

dmo580

08-09-2005, 08:25 AM

I bought BOTH the 930B and the VP191b in the past 2 weeks. I have tested them both out.

Analysis: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=1658610&enterthread=y&arctab=y

[XC] leviathan18

08-09-2005, 09:32 AM

I would ask to the crt lover no flaming here this is just a guide keep it clean

Salahuddin

08-09-2005, 10:33 AM

Nice job on the “LCD Guide” everyone that was involved, adding some links to reviews on each LCD like you mention would be very helpful, it would give the reader a more real world opinion on a particular LCD so one is able to make up his or her own mind. That way it clears up any biases that might be present.

Heya Necro. Hope things are going well with ya and thanks for the compliment ;)

Just want to say that I agree with you and I'll make a list of the reviews I used for the monitors I listed. However, I suggest we stick to only reviews from more established sites. Many of the VP201b reviews listed were anecdotal and not very objective. The only ones I think we should keep from the list is the GamePC one and maybe the VNU one (I will add a few more). No review can truly be 100% unbiased, but I think we invite the possibility for more bias by putting anecdotal reviews (i.e. forum reviews, comments etc.). Of all the reviewing sites out there, I think TomsHardware and BeHardware are the best ones because they review the most LCDs and perform objective tests on them. But I will still include essentially all the reviews I read from more established sites.

What about adding some additional information about the different panel technologies and who developed the MVA, PMVA, SPVA, PVA, SIPS and IPS panels:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/panel_technologies.htm

Frankly, I didn't know enough on the subject to include it. There are many panel developers out there we didn't list. The "top panel LCD manufacturer companies" aren't necessarily LG, Samsung and AU Optronics. I only wanted to include Samsung and AUO because it is well known they are competing to make the fastest panel and we had a very informative graph of their technology. Turok included LG because he thought I was being biased towards smaller panels by not including it. However, I believe LG doesn't even make panels anymore, they split from Phillips who are the panel makers. There are also Fujitsu (make TN Sony panels) and Enzo that I know of. However, until someone has more knowledge than we do, I don't think the "top panel LCD manufacturer companies" should be included above.

Edit: All my links have been added to the guide above and therefore removed from this post.

muaddib

08-09-2005, 11:17 AM

WOW! You (and the other guys involved in this) did a fantastic job Turok!

Also, nice additions would be (actually, I think such extra content would make this guide pretty much perfect):

- Information about the available connectors these days (AKA HDMI/DVI, VGA, Component, VGA, S-Video, HDCP decrypted or not, ETC.)
- A chapter written especially for HDTV. Explanations (even very briefly) about the various HDTV resolutions (e.g. 420p, 720p, 1080i/1080p) and connectors.

BTW, STICK!!!

[XC] leviathan18

08-09-2005, 11:32 AM

ok i can handle that info tha you want muaddib maybe for tomorrow if today i dont have the time

Salahuddin

08-09-2005, 01:25 PM

I suggest the following corrections to the list:

According to Prad.de, all the Apple Cinema Displays use LG Phillips S-IPS panels, not PVA panels:

http://www.prad.de/en/guide/hersteller107.html

By that token alone, the Dell 2405FPW cannot be more responsive than the Apple Cinema in gaming, since the former uses a PVA panel.

Also, S-IPS panels should be labelled as either "LG Phillips" or "Phillips," not just "LG." I'm fairly certain LG doesn't actually make panels, but I believe the panels were intially made when their companies were combined.

IYP

08-09-2005, 01:31 PM

wow...Salahuddin knows how to get stuff done! lol dont forget im still here, if ya need nethin from me jus shoot me a PM

Salahuddin

08-09-2005, 01:47 PM

wow...Salahuddin knows how to get stuff done! lol dont forget im still here, if ya need nethin from me jus shoot me a PM

Thanks bro. Its my obsessive compulsive disorder kicking in.

Necromonger

08-09-2005, 03:23 PM

Heya Necro. Hope things are going well with ya and thanks for the compliment ;)

Just want to say that I agree with you and I'll make a list of the reviews I used for the monitors I listed. However, I suggest we stick to only reviews from more established sites. Many of the VP201b reviews listed were anecdotal and not very objective. The only ones I think we should keep from the list is the GamePC one and maybe the VNU one (I will add a few more). No review can truly be 100% unbiased, but I think we invite the possibility for more bias by putting anecdotal reviews (i.e. forum reviews, comments etc.). Of all the reviewing sites out there, I think TomsHardware and BeHardware are the best ones because they review the most LCDs and perform objective tests on them. But I will still include essentially all the reviews I read from more established sites.

I am doing very well, thank you, and I hope the same for you, it sounds like you had a great vacation, again, “Good job on the LCD Guide” and links to reviews.

Salahuddin, in all do respect, who determines what is an “established site” or an “anecdotal review” or for that matter an “objective” or “subjective” review, you! In my opinion, I think all reviews and comments should be included no matter where they come from and what is said in them. I know there is no review that is 100% unbiased, but the more reviews one can read helps to better understand the product in hand. So in retrospect, I will not remove any links to reviews that I listed.

There are many members here at this forum that think “Toms Hardware” reviews are a bunch of hot air. But I don’t have a problem seeing it on the review list, the more information one has the better one can differentiate between a good review and a bad review.

Quote from “Zebo” at this forum:
“Show me someone besides Toms bias testing”.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=959217&highlight=Toms+Hardware#post959217

Quote from the inquirer:
“Hardware sites are also known to the companies and PR firms to be either docile axs-kissers, or, well, not. The docile ones are the ones you want to use to get a story out, especially if the story is not all that good if measured against the unvarnished facts. The docile sites are the ones that get the sneak peaks, exclusives and perks that few others tend to get. Some are too stupid to do more than reword press releases and swipe slides from PDFs, others are flat out bought. It does not take a genius to figure out which sites fall into which categories”.

“You notice I said bought. If you have any doubts, let me tell you, the current hardware review site industry is flat out for sale. The higher up you go, the fewer exceptions to the rule there are. Some sites are directly for sale, I am sure you have seen it, it is a hard thing to miss”.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=22332

[XC] leviathan18

08-09-2005, 03:43 PM

THG @ lcd test is quite good

Turok

08-09-2005, 03:59 PM

I am doing very well, thank you, and I hope the same for you, it sounds like you had a great vacation, again, “Good job on the LCD Guide” and links to reviews.

Salahuddin, in all do respect, who determines what is an “established site” or an “anecdotal review” or for that matter an “objective” or “subjective” review, you! In my opinion, I think all reviews and comments should be included no matter where they come from and what is said in them. I know there is no review that is 100% unbiased, but the more reviews one can read helps to better understand the product in hand. So in retrospect, I will not remove any links to reviews that I listed.

There are many members here at this forum that think “Toms Hardware” reviews are a bunch of hot air. But I don’t have a problem seeing it on the review list, the more information one has the better one can differentiate between a good review and a bad review.

Quote from “Zebo” at this forum:
“Show me someone besides Toms bias testing”.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=959217&highlight=Toms+Hardware#post959217

Quote from the inquirer:
“Hardware sites are also known to the companies and PR firms to be either docile axs-kissers, or, well, not. The docile ones are the ones you want to use to get a story out, especially if the story is not all that good if measured against the unvarnished facts. The docile sites are the ones that get the sneak peaks, exclusives and perks that few others tend to get. Some are too stupid to do more than reword press releases and swipe slides from PDFs, others are flat out bought. It does not take a genius to figure out which sites fall into which categories”.

“You notice I said bought. If you have any doubts, let me tell you, the current hardware review site industry is flat out for sale. The higher up you go, the fewer exceptions to the rule there are. Some sites are directly for sale, I am sure you have seen it, it is a hard thing to miss”.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=22332

I though your reviews were ok, except the VNU review because it was too short and didnt offer too much details on the LCD.
The forum review already had some links of sites you already listed, so some reviews would have to be taken off.

Salahuddin wanted to take off the forum ones and the short review so I did, but wasnt my idea so dont flame on me pls :D
We left the GamePC review, so your research didnt go to waste

Necromonger

08-09-2005, 05:42 PM

I though your reviews were ok, except the VNU review because it was too short and didnt offer too much details on the LCD.
The forum review already had some links of sites you already listed, so some reviews would have to be taken off.

Salahuddin wanted to take off the forum ones and the short review so I did, but wasnt my idea so dont flame on me pls :D
We left the GamePC review, so your research didnt go to waste

Turok, I hope you don’t think I was flaming you, because I am not, I think your doing a fantastic job on this “LCD Guide”. I am not flaming any one, I was talking to “Salahuddin” about facts.
In further note, I said in “all do respect” that means I respect him, I dont understand why you would respond for him.

Salahuddin

08-09-2005, 06:31 PM

I'm totally aware that Tom's Hardware is not considered a very objective site by some... but almost all of those comments are directed towards the Intel vs AMD debate and perhaps some motherboard hardware. Regardless, for LCDs Tom's Hardware provides very objective data and testing that hardly any other review sites provide (the graph of panel response for instance).

The truth is that the guide was compiled by Turok, leviathan18, IYP, and myself... and so our biases will be inherent to it. A site that is dedicated to reviewing hardware and reviews many components is always going to be more valuable than someone going on a forum and writing a review about the monitor they bought. An anecdotal response has absolutely no standard and is the lowest form of scientific evidence available. After all the research I've done on these LCDs to try and narrow it done to the facts, I don't feel comfortable having just anybody's comment tacked onto my work. I mean, what is to stop someone like me or you writing a review on how the crappiest 25ms PVA panel is the best gaming monitor in the world and posting it up on the guide?

Sure review sites can be very biased. But, they have at least some standard to the public they have to adhere to or else no one will invest back into them. Therefore I'm not against having biased review sites up there. There are several sites I included that I don't necessarily agree with everything they have to say, but because I know they used some standard (however biased) I included them.

I'm a physician and I see numerous patients come asking me about this and that "herbal" medication and they bring me evidence like "it worked for so and so." The fact is, that form of evidence is useless to me because it has no scientific value. At the same time there is TONS of bias in medical research due to the influence of drug companies on research. But, I know that regardless of this bias, all research has to adhere to certain principles that I myself have to analyze so that I can choose what is best for my patient. I can read a research paper and think its full of crap, and at the same time, I can read another one and think it has a lot of good information. I base these decisions on how closely the authors follow the scientific method and what objective data they provide. Sure I might not be correct all the time, but its the best manner of approaching that which is truly unbiased (which is impossible). Including anecdotal "evidence" in this approach causes more, not less, bias. In fact, it actually clouds the the "true" evidence because people are unsure on how much weight to give each form of evidence. If doctors payed equal weight to all the anecdotal evidence that goes around to all the other research that is done, even if its biased, we may very well be prescribing Ginko Biloba to lower your cholesterol instead of medications that are known to work!

I mean, if Tom's Hardware reviews the VP191B, puts in a colour accuracy chart, a response time graph, a thorough explanation of their testing methods, and compares it to other LCDs... how can that be weighed equally to someone that says, "I just bought the Dell 2005FPW and its the best monitor, absolutely no ghosting or anything, I play WOW on it everyday... its AWESOME!" There is absolutely no comparison between these reviews even though they both may be equally biased. Another person may come along and say, "there is so much ghosting on the 2005FPW I don't know how anyone plays games on it" and the reader ends up being totally confused on the subject.

Now you can ask "who is qualified to weigh what evidence is allowed and what isn't?" The short answer is those who have developed the guide in the first place. After all, our own biases were already used in developing the guide and if we don't feel comfortable included certain reviews in it, I think that is quite a fair thing to do.

And don't get me wrong. I didn't ask that your sites be removed from YOUR own post Necromonger... I meant for them to be removed from the main guide (Turok had included all of them). If you or anyone else for that matter want to post your opinions or reviews in your own posts, that is totally fine and encouraged. I only meant for them not to be all included in the guide. And, if through these posts new and/or confirmed evidence is presented, I know that Turok and the rest of us are interested in adding to and improving the guide.

Necromonger

08-09-2005, 07:40 PM

I will respect your thread, I’m also glad that some one like your self has the bxlls to admit that their own biases are involved in this “LCD Guide” my hats off to you.
I am also in the medical field, so I know exactly what you’re talking about as far as the influence of drug companies on research, Doctors and hospitals, but when someone here at this forum tells someone that they think that a particular piece of hardware or what ever is good or bad I will usually believe them over a online hardware reviewer even “Toms scientific method”. Anyway, good luck in your endeavor on finding the fastest LCD. You might want to take a look into Medical Grade LCD’s.
Maybe you can get one of the mods to turn this thread into a sticky and remove all of these non-useless posts!

shadowing

08-10-2005, 07:58 AM

Well for the 17 inch, I would like to recommend the Samsung 172X. I am only recommending this as it is a nice LCD and has a 12ms response time.

Btw, good job on this thread.

[XC] leviathan18

08-10-2005, 08:12 AM

the 710n is better imo than the 172

shadowing

08-10-2005, 08:41 AM

the 710n is better imo than the 172

I agree there. Just haven't caught up lately in the LCD frenzy. ;)

oqy77

08-10-2005, 05:17 PM

kudos for the work. Great job. I would like to vote for a sticky :banana:

rick_fx

08-10-2005, 05:34 PM

Nicely done! Very useful :)

perkam

08-10-2005, 06:01 PM

This thread should start feeling **sticky** right about now ? :D

Nice job Turok, amazing job in making a guide with info on specific models.

Perkam

Turok

08-10-2005, 07:47 PM

This thread should start feeling **sticky** right about now ? :D

Nice job Turok, amazing job in making a guide with info on specific models.

Perkam

Thanks, I owe most of it to Salahuddin, and the rest
Cheers :toast:

Turok

08-11-2005, 08:23 AM

ok guys, there are still some things I would like to know to make this LCD Guide even better

Right now Im trying to decide between the Dell 2005fpw and the Dell 2405fpw
Ive never bought a LCD, so this would be my first time.

Would be of great help if someone who has both the 2005fpw and 2405fpw could compare the following: (and being 100% honest about it)

2005fpw vs 2405fpw
* Check for uneven backlighting, but this shouldnt be visible at all on a 2405fpw
* Compare motion blur and ghosting between both monitors using this link: *Click Here* (http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/ghosting_test.html)
* Test fast paced FPS games like UT2k4, and compare motion blur and ghosting between both monitors
* Compare color quality, bright, and dark levels
* If you have a SLi solution, try running it and describe what happens

Note:
-Ghosting is when a image is duplicated with a ghost like trail
-Motion blur is when you see a blurry image in fast motion, but no trails are left behind

Please be acurate with your point of view. There is a lot of "biasing" about these monitors, since most of the users Ive seen with both are not compleately honest or dont define in great detail how it peforms in fast motion pictures.

If you have another monitor thats mentioned on the list, and would like to help in benching it, THG has a guide to help you benchmark your monitor:
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/display/20040923/index.html

Depending on your acuracy, we could edit the summaries on each LCD with the less "bias" possible

Thanks for your time

Turok

[XC] leviathan18

08-11-2005, 02:03 PM

wow we got sticky :D nice work guys :P:

Supertim0r

08-12-2005, 07:30 AM

any info on the Samsung 913T ? I'm about to buy 2 of those :)

Turok

08-12-2005, 09:02 AM

any info on the Samsung 913T ? I'm about to buy 2 of those :)

The specs look verry simmilar to the Hyundai L90D+
Im guessing its the same LCD but the Samsung version, since its a Samsung TN pannel rated at 8ms, and contrast ratios and brigtness levels are the same.

If you can get it cheaper than a Hyundai L90D+, then get it, but I would go with the L90D+ because its been reviewed and tested by several users. I cant find too much info on the Samsung 913T.
If its exactly the same LCD as the L90D+, then I might have to add it to the list as a alternate option.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

About my previous post: Can anyone review the 2005fpw and 2405fpw?
If not, could someone at least review a LCD from the list if they have it?
It would help prove any doubts on a LCD

HiJon89

08-17-2005, 09:29 PM

CRT advantage

The only advantage with CRTs is response time, and darkness levels.
Right now, an average CRT can have a response time below 2ms and can have contrast ratios above 1000:1, but that will soon change as LCDs become faster without sacrificing too much image quality.
You're forgetting another important CRT advantage: Price :D

totensiebush

08-18-2005, 01:05 PM

You say that the common ratios are 4:3, 16:10 and 16:9. You are forgetting that most 17" and 19" LCDs run 1280*1024, which is 5:4 (although it could be that they don't have square pixels, I don't know).

Turok

08-18-2005, 07:54 PM

You're forgetting another important CRT advantage: Price :D

Yeah, I forgot about price comparison, but I'll put the best LCDs are more expensive since a slower pannels can cost about the same as a CRT at the same resolution and still get better image quality than the best CRT

You say that the common ratios are 4:3, 16:10 and 16:9. You are forgetting that most 17" and 19" LCDs run 1280*1024, which is 5:4 (although it could be that they don't have square pixels, I don't know).

Never heared about 5:4 aspect ratio monitors. :p:
I googled about it and you are right that 1280x1024 is a 5:4 native resolution.
No wonder my CRT looks different in proportions when switching from 1280x1024 to 1600x1200 :slap:

MaxxxRacer

08-19-2005, 12:11 AM

notoriousformula

08-20-2005, 06:48 PM

Good guide.

PS: Hyundai L90D+ LCD Review links don't work.

StrikeRTM

08-21-2005, 06:19 AM

Some Sony monitor reviews would be welcome.

marius7

08-22-2005, 03:25 AM

notoriousformula

08-22-2005, 10:48 AM

Viewsonic VP171S is the same with VP191B except the color and size(silver vs black and 17'' vs 19'') ? Is s only 8ms or I have to watch out not to be an 25ms, like the red warning from the up ?

Edit:

They said to me it's an 16ms and 260cd/m2, hmmm.

Yes, the 17" and 19"(vp171 and vp191) use diff pannel/diff specs, etc.. huge diff. if you ask me.

The S = Silver, whereas B = Black.

[XC] leviathan18

08-22-2005, 11:19 AM

with 2005fpw from dell you can hook a dvd or satelite thing??? it has compsite video and s video so it should be possible right?

marius7

08-23-2005, 01:16 AM

Yes, the 17" and 19"(vp171 and vp191) use diff pannel/diff specs, etc.. huge diff. if you ask me.

The S = Silver, whereas B = Black.

So only the specifications tells u the truth, nothing to do only with the model name.

[XC] leviathan18

08-23-2005, 11:00 AM

TUROK

you have to add to the 2005fpw that it has composite and S-video IN and 4 usb 2.0

and the 2405fpw is 24.1 inches no 23.1 and it has 2 usb 2.0 and 9 in 1 card reader and S-video in and composite video in
http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/643/643265p4.html

DeltZ

08-23-2005, 11:50 AM

i'm thinking of getting a monitor soon...i haven't really got enough to afford a decent 19 inch monitor...so i'm thinking of getting the 17 inch viewsonic vp171 ...any comments? whats my best choice?

marius7

08-23-2005, 02:51 PM

Where can I buy VP171S or VP171B with 8ms from Cyprus ? Any online store u know ?

Turok

08-23-2005, 05:52 PM

Where can I buy VP171S or VP171B with 8ms from Cyprus ? Any online store u know ?

Go to www.PriceGrabber.com

I found that NewEgg and ZipZoomZly sell it.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824116347&ATT=Monitors+LCD+Flat+Pa&CMP=OTC-pr1c3grabb3r
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=231630&affiliate=pricegrabber

Its almost as expensive as a Hyundai L90D+ (19" LCD)

ferrari_freak

08-26-2005, 08:31 PM

notoriousformula

08-26-2005, 11:32 PM

So only the specifications tells u the truth, nothing to do only with the model name.
All i know is that Viewsonic uses diff pannel for 17" and 19" model.. the 19" uses a better/faster panel.. check out the Viewsonic site for spec PDF on both monitor, Also google for VP171 and VP191 reviews.

shadowing

08-26-2005, 11:48 PM

Turok: I have the 2405FPW. If you wish, I can probably review it for normal use.. but not like intense gaming and stuff. :(

Dalle

08-27-2005, 03:56 AM

It really boggles the mind why they went with 5:4 over 4:3 when creating LCD's. it really makes NO sense what so ever. All standard TV's and CRT's are 4:3.. why change something that is such a standard.. ohwell

btw.. amazing guide. absolutely amazing. really helped me out.

Talking about AR's, one thing that I don't get is.. why are all the monitors 16:10 and not 16:9 :stick:
and I also have to agree that i also find it retarded that LCD's are built with a 4:3 ratio but their native resolution is 5:4

Turok

08-27-2005, 04:29 AM

Can you post pics of comparing the difference between a 4:3 aspect ratio moniter such as a Dell 2001FPW vs. a widescreen moniter like the Dell 2405FPW. Some pics like how much more viewing area you will have with a widescreen moniter in a widescreen compatible game would be welcome. And another thing would about how much a non-widescreen compatible game will stretch (preferrably UT2004 because that is the game that I will be playing most and it is the one game that is preventhing me from choosing a widescreen moniter, I'm afraid that it might be too distorted) when used on a widescreen. Awesome guide, btw.

Usama aka Ferrari Freak

I already posted a picture compareing the viewabl area between 5:4, 4:3, 16:10, and 16:9 aspect ratios in the "Common Aspect Ratios" section.
I also added a link below with the difference between 4:3 and 5:4 viewable area in CSS

Turok: I have the 2405FPW. If you wish, I can probably review it for normal use.. but not like intense gaming and stuff. :(

Something is better than nothing ;)
Please PM me some comments on your LCD and use this site to test for ghosting:
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/ghosting_test.html

If you dont mind, could you download a FPS demo like Halo, Doom3, F.E.A.R., etc.
If you dont have the video card to run it, try an old game demo like Doom, and Duke Nukem 3D

dippyskoodlez

08-27-2005, 08:23 AM

Sharpness:
LCD run at a native resolution, wile CRT compresses the image as you raise the resolution, making it less sharp and more blurry in higher resolutions.

Don't the LCD's compress the image when your running a lower resolution and make it look like crap? I know every LCD ive seen does... bump down to 640x480 or something, and it gets really tiny, and 1024x768 on a 1280x1024 native LCD is really blurry and ugly.

ferrari_freak

08-27-2005, 09:58 AM

I already posted a picture compareing the viewabl area between 5:4, 4:3, 16:10, and 16:9 aspect ratios in the "Common Aspect Ratios" section.
I also added a link below with the difference between 4:3 and 5:4 viewable area in CSS

Oops, must have missed it while reading your guide. Anyway, congrats, your guide is on the front page!

EDIT: I still don't see a section with how much a game can stretch. That would also be very helpful for people who will be playing a non widescreen capable game on a widescreen display.

Usama aka Ferrari Freak

dogsx2

08-27-2005, 10:05 PM

Anyone have this lcd or know anything about it? I'm thinking about getting one if I can get alittle more info on it.
Any input would be a great help.

HiJon89

08-27-2005, 11:12 PM

Yeah, I forgot about price comparison, but I'll put the best LCDs are more expensive since a slower pannels can cost about the same as a CRT at the same resolution and still get better image quality than the best CRT
http://store.tkopartsandpcs.com/de21p1mod06.html
Show me where I can get a 21" LCD that can do 2048x1536 for $99 and I will admit that LCD's are superior and switch to them immediately.

[XC] leviathan18

08-28-2005, 06:54 AM

the panel can cost 100$ so imagine how much cost the overall lcd

Master X

08-28-2005, 11:16 AM

I bought the Viewsonic VP2000s/VP201s/VP201b and love it even though I payed 800 Canadian for it.

airwolves

08-28-2005, 12:30 PM

Good guide..

Now I have a hitachi 17" 16ms lcd and looking to upgrade it.. Would a 19 be better or stick with another 17"??

Anyone use a 17 and went to a 19 and liked it or reget it??

As I use it mostly for webbrowsing and games like css, bf2, and hopefully dods..

FallenAngel

08-28-2005, 12:40 PM

I was searching for LCD panels price and specs, and your gude just come in handy, congrats for this really good and pratical guide

Good guide..

Now I have a hitachi 17" 16ms lcd and looking to upgrade it.. Would a 19 be better or stick with another 17"??

Anyone use a 17 and went to a 19 and liked it or reget it??

As I use it mostly for webbrowsing and games like css, bf2, and hopefully dods..

Dont know about LCD's but changing from a 17" to a 19" CRT I was really happy, I think is all a question about resolution viewing a 1280*1024 res on a 17" is not the same thing as viewing on a 19", fonts are better to read, on my office I got a 21" and I can read very well fonts at 1600x1200, I hope it helped.

Turok

08-28-2005, 05:39 PM

http://store.tkopartsandpcs.com/de21p1mod06.html
Show me where I can get a 21" LCD that can do 2048x1536 for $99 and I will admit that LCD's are superior and switch to them immediately.

ok you win :p:
I guess its your 2 cents :2cents: if you eather want a blurry electron beam or a sharp, but slower flat display

I just mentioned "price" aspart of the CRT advantages,so I didnt have to change much

Delirious

08-28-2005, 08:44 PM

I just switched for the first time from crt and hafta say i wont be buying a crt again. I still use my crt though mainly for the color reproduction when using ps, even though my viewsonic 191b has great color.

YanBooth

08-29-2005, 01:10 AM

Nice work!

One question... What do you, Turok, think: "Poor dark levels" really mean to the viewer?

You shall never sway me from my beautiful 23" Cinema HD!

Yan

dogsx2

08-29-2005, 03:27 AM

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=72802

drcrawn

08-29-2005, 02:17 PM

Nice work Turok.

The only thing I suggest doing is adding connections types for the display (very important), and explain what HDCP is how it will affect DRM. For example, most current displays might not be able to play future DVD formats such as BluRay, or even Windows Vista without HDCP compliance.

BTW, if you want to add a little section about HDTV, I'd be happy to contribute in any way possible :toast:

[XC] leviathan18

08-29-2005, 02:21 PM

we can add that for the guide with no problems care to elaborate more in what do you want :P so i can find all the existing info and send it to turok

drcrawn

08-29-2005, 02:24 PM

the connections for each display, e.g. dvi/d-sub/component/hdmi, etc.

hdcp compliance? (most will not be, but this is something to consider)

Turok

08-29-2005, 07:45 PM

Nice work!

One question... What do you, Turok, think: "Poor dark levels" really mean to the viewer?

You shall never sway me from my beautiful 23" Cinema HD!

Yan

Heh, thats Salahuddin's writing
Salahuddin kind of exagerates things about LCDs, like saying that a 16ms is horrible for gaming when you hardly notice any blur.

For the viewer, a poor dark level would be to put a black picture on the screen and that it looks more grayish than pure black because of the backlighting

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums...ead.php?t=72802

Thats a really nice deal.
Its about as cheap as a Dell 2405fpw can get with coupon discounts and stuff.
This HP panel uses the same LG.Phillips panel used on the Apple 23" Cinema HD, so its about the same thing in performance. The LCD also has some connectors simmilar to that on the Dell 2405fpw

*If you are looking for a 23"/24" LCD with the best picture possible and that's decent enough to play games, then the Dell 2405fpw is for you

*If you are looking for a 23"/24" LCD with the best performance mostly for gaming, then the 23" HP or Apple Cinema is for you

I would get the 2405fpw because the Image quality is amazing and its has a 24" vieable area, wile the others are 23". Even tho the 2405fpw is a bit slower in gaming than the Apple Cinema and HP, I think the difference in performance is really minor and you wont notice too much motion blur.

Would be nice if a 2405fpw user could coments about the screen in gaming.

marius7

08-29-2005, 09:43 PM

I have problems finding good brands in my country so I would like someone to make me like an top 5 for 17" and 19" LCD. I know that Viewsonic is nr 1 but I can't find it :(.
I can find Hyundai L90D+ but has an extreme price : 600$ with VAT, and Samsung 930BF with 500$ with VAT.

YanBooth

08-30-2005, 12:13 AM

the Dell 24" got good reviews in PC Shopper, but its video playback/gaming performance got some bad stuff said about it...

Yan

StrikeRTM

08-30-2005, 04:48 AM

Allmosut all monitors have a con "motion bluring and ghosting noticable."

Are there realy no good LCD's at all currently in production? Some 16:9 would be great, but allmoust all those have the ghosting and blurring noticable too.

Could anyone suggest a panel with native resolution of 1920x1080?

The requirements would be: good for gaming, good for work with graphics applications, good for movie watching and native resolution of 1920x1080(what is that, 21", 23"?).

Thinker

08-30-2005, 02:15 PM

CRT advantage
The only advantage with CRTs is response time, darkness levels, and price.
Right now, an average CRT can have a response time below 2ms and can have contrast ratios above 1000:1 and LCDs could cost more than two times a CRT at the same recommended resolution.
I still would like CRT monitor more than LCD. You forgot about one of the most important thing here. CRT has bunch of resolutions. On good monitors geometry and purity of screen is comparable to LCD's. But CRT has better time response and better colors than LCD in same time.
For gamers LCD are sometimes unaccteptable. Because when you have native resolution on your LCD 1280x1024 you had to have a graphics card that can play all games on that res. It's a problem, because it can be expensive. I got GF6600 and I can't play for example hl2 in high resolution that I want.

[XC] leviathan18

08-30-2005, 03:02 PM

if you have a low end video card it doesnt matter if you have a super nice crt or lcd cuz you wont be playing @ high res.....

as i said before no lcd bashing here this A GUIDE for the ppl that wants to buy lcd and ask questions about LCD and learn about the lcd tech

Turok

08-30-2005, 04:02 PM

I still would like CRT monitor more than LCD. You forgot about one of the most important thing here. CRT has bunch of resolutions. On good monitors geometry and purity of screen is comparable to LCD's. But CRT has better time response and better colors than LCD in same time.
For gamers LCD are sometimes unaccteptable. Because when you have native resolution on your LCD 1280x1024 you had to have a graphics card that can play all games on that res. It's a problem, because it can be expensive. I got GF6600 and I can't play for example hl2 in high resolution that I want.

False. Colors on a LCD are a lot better than CRTs.
Even tho CRTs are capable of doing high resolutions with smaller viewable area, the screen blurs.
Im usually running my 19" NEC FE991sb (19" CRT) at 1280x1024 when Im not playing games because text blurs a lot and its really small to read from a safe distance, wile LCDs use native resolutions.

Ive been a CRT user all my life and Ive never had a LCD before.
I dont even have one now (August 30, 2005), but I want to get a LCD because my eyes get tired afther half a day of intense use and its impresive how much sharper a LCD is compared to a CRT at the same resolution.

And Leviathan18 is right. Dont flame in here, this is a LCD guide.
You could just make a new post or visit all those other posts about LCDs and post your comments about CRTs

muaddib

08-31-2005, 01:05 AM

Is that SED thing true? It sounds too good to be so...

Turok

08-31-2005, 03:53 PM

Is that SED thing true? It sounds too good to be so...

I just updated the SED section for more info about it.
Everything seems to be true and they have showed these displays in tech shows in Japan.

The life span and retail price is still unknown.
I hope they can shrink the lenses enough to make PC monitors. If its true that its going to be cheaper than LCDs, then these monitors will be a hit in the PC market.
They offer the quality of a plasma, the lightness of a LCD, and the speeds of a CRT.

dippyskoodlez

08-31-2005, 04:05 PM

Ive been a CRT user all my life and Ive never had a LCD before.
I dont even have one now (August 30, 2005), but I want to get a LCD because my eyes get tired afther half a day of intense use and its impresive how much sharper a LCD is compared to a CRT at the same resolution.

And Leviathan18 is right. Dont flame in here, this is a LCD guide.
You could just make a new post or visit all those other posts about LCDs and post your comments about CRTs

If the resolution used is native, yes I think an LCD looks better, but i think you're wrong about CRT's getting blurry I had an Apple 17" monitor, and yeah high resolution gets a tad bit less, and at extremely high res, I think they do, but for the average user, 1280x1024 and below, I think CRT's still offer the best performance and image quality. Anything below 1280x1024 and LCD's just look like crap :stick:

If your eyes are tired, get a CRT with higher refresh rate.. 1600x1200 @ 160hz doesn't hurt my eyes, even after a 12hr gaming spree :cool:

Turok

08-31-2005, 05:09 PM

If the resolution used is native, yes I think an LCD looks better, but i think you're wrong about CRT's getting blurry I had an Apple 17" monitor, and yeah high resolution gets a tad bit less, and at extremely high res, I think they do, but for the average user, 1280x1024 and below, I think CRT's still offer the best performance and image quality. Anything below 1280x1024 and LCD's just look like crap :stick:

If your eyes are tired, get a CRT with higher refresh rate.. 1600x1200 @ 160hz doesn't hurt my eyes, even after a 12hr gaming spree :cool:

Im guessing you got this LCD:
Apple M7649ZMB (17")
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php?masterid=690002&search=M7649ZMB

Contrast ratios and brightness levels are really low on that display, and it has 8-bit color.
Im guessing it's an old IPS pannel, so dont expect quality from that LCD.

As I mentioned on the guide, higher contrast ratios will give you a sharper image.
The LCDs I mention in the guide are one of the best of its class, and should look better than a CRT.
That's what a VP191b, Dell 2005fpw, and Dell 2405fpw user would say.

dippyskoodlez

08-31-2005, 06:36 PM

Im guessing you got this LCD:
Apple M7649ZMB (17")
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php?masterid=690002&search=M7649ZMB

Contrast ratios and brightness levels are really low on that display, and it has 8-bit color.
Im guessing it's an old IPS pannel, so dont expect quality from that LCD.

As I mentioned on the guide, higher contrast ratios will give you a sharper image.
The LCDs I mention in the guide are one of the best of its class, and should look better than a CRT.
That's what a VP191b, Dell 2005fpw, and Dell 2405fpw user would say.

CRT ;) The CRT I had is well out of most 17" monitors class... :) 1600x1200 @ 160hz.

FLAT too, with 16" viewable :slobber: reg VGA cable.

I was using a viewsonic 17" at school, not the greatest, but still not too bad, and that apple was simply no contest when it comes to color quality... using a 17" packard hell now, and the color was definatly noticable. :cool:

imo an LCD is nice, but still too expensive for a mainstream cheap N go monitor. High end, I'm sure they have the market easily captured, because tahts their target.

dogsx2

09-02-2005, 08:18 PM

I got one of these a few days ago and have been playing with it. I really like it and think I will keep it unless something turns up.
First it is great for watching movies. I don't really have any newer action games but I did run 2001 and some other benches and I did not see any ghosting or trailing in any of them. If someone knows of a program I can download to test for ghosting and trailing, I sure would like to know.

It does not have a split screen but you can put up two pages at the same time.

The reviews are right on, the black is not real black. The rest of the colors are great.

HP now has a lower price on them: $999,99 and there is still the $100 rebate.

Last, I hope this thread doesn't turn into a LCD vs CRT thread. Even though you said not to post about a CRT, I guess some people can't help themselves.

Thanks for the good info, it help me make my choice of this LCD.

marius7

09-04-2005, 04:25 AM

Turok

09-04-2005, 07:25 AM

Hmmm.... Fujitsu-Siemens C19-4 seems an good LCD, should be mentioned in the recomended LCD's, cause it has an closer performance to Viewsonic VP191b (8ms) and an very good price (I've heard is 200 euro less).

looks like a European LCD.
The LCD uses an MVA panel at 8ms, must be P-MVA.
The brightness level is really low, but the contrast ratio is a bit higher than the VP191b

Also noticed another 19" LCD.
Iiyama ProLite H1900
Runs on a PVA pannel rated at 12ms
Contrast ratio is really high at 1000:1 (same contrast ratio on the Dell 2405fpw)
Its a 19" LCD, but max resolution is 1600 x 1200
Brightness level is a bit low at 300 cd/m²
Seems to be a more expensive LCD tho

I'll have to research more about these LCDs with translators

ZeroX

09-04-2005, 03:17 PM

Nice work :D

[XC] leviathan18

09-04-2005, 03:32 PM

thanks :D hope everybody enjoys this effort :toast:

ferrari_freak

09-06-2005, 05:39 PM

What would be a good LCD moniter, mostly for gaming. I'm not going to be playing a long time, only about 1-2 hours a day (darn mom). I want it to be really fast, so ghosting is not acceptable, but the price also has to be appropriate. I'm currently considering either the Dell 2001FP or the Dell 2005FPW. What else would you recommend for a large gaming screen, but one that will be fast as well as play in high res. I'm not in too much of a hurry. Will most likely wait till December, but just asking for opinions. Thanks a lot.

Usama aka Ferrari Freak

[XC] leviathan18

09-06-2005, 06:06 PM

2005fpw best size price and perfomance

muaddib

09-08-2005, 02:40 AM

2005FPW, and get the latest revision. (So you'll not be infected by the backlight/ heavy ghosting + blur issues).

Tibu

09-08-2005, 02:19 PM

Ok heres' some questions:

1. Can I still play games at like 1152x864 or even maybe 1024x768 using an LCD with a native resolution of 1280x1024?

2. Would I get ghosting with this LCD: Fuji FP-988D (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824168005)

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

PanaBob

09-08-2005, 04:49 PM

If you have an LCD with both D-Sub and DVI, do you notice any difference in performance/IQ by usuing the digital vs analog connection? If so how noticeable is it?

[XC] leviathan18

09-08-2005, 08:30 PM

dvi has better bandwith and you wont loss quality changing the signal from digital to analog to digital you will keep it in digital all the way

Tibu

09-08-2005, 08:46 PM

lightiv

09-09-2005, 08:51 AM

Yeah I know this is an odd comparison but let me know what you think.

Well my Viewsonic P810-3 died after about 7 years of service, great monitor. I am looking to replace it and decide it is time to go LCD. Before I came across the Viewsonic N2750W I had decided on the Viewsonic VP191b after reading the reviews on it. I know I can not go wrong with the VP191b as that is what I use at work.

Looking at the specs. (from Viewsonic.com) for the Viewsonic N2750W I noticed that they are the same or better.

VP191b:

LCD Panel..........Type 19" color TFT active matrix SXGA LCD
Display Area..........14.8" (horizontal) X 11.9" (vertical); 19.0" diagonal
Optimum Resolution..........1280x1024
Contrast Ratio..........800:1 typ)
Viewing Angle..........170° horizontal, 170° vertical @ CR>10
Response Time..........8ms (gray-to-gray); 20ms (black-white-black, typ)
Brightness..........250 cd/m2 (typ)
Panel Surface..........Anti-glare

N2750W:

LCD Panel..........Type 27" color TFT active matrix, wide 1280x720 LCD, true HDTV format
Display Area..........23.5" horizontal X 13.2" vertical; 27.0" diagonal
Contrast Ratio..........900:1 (typ)
Viewing Angle..........176° horizontal, 176° vertical
Response Time..........8ms gray to gray
Brightness..........550 cd/m2 (typ)
Aspect Ratio..........16:9
Glass Surface..........Anti-glare, anti-reflective coat, hard DHD coat

My question is are we talking "Apples to Apples" here? I know the price is a big jump but I would have a HDTV ready LCD with the features of a TV (Picture in Pictures) with the N2750W versus just a (great) LCD monitor.

Anyway what do you think?

[XC] leviathan18

09-09-2005, 09:01 AM

1280x720 on 27" jesus awful resolution the dop pitch should be quite high

[XC] leviathan18

09-09-2005, 09:02 AM

the 2405fpw has better resolution PiP PbP you can conect composite and component video so i think is better

lightiv

09-09-2005, 11:47 AM

I am going to have the rule this one out due the the high pitch squeal issue:

http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=dim_monitor&message.id=44518

This is unfortuantely as looking at the user reviews on CNet the give it an over all rating of 9.1.

Turok

09-09-2005, 11:55 AM

Anyone got any opinions on this LCD: CMV CT-726D (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16824024007)

The stats look pretty good. I assume since it's 16.7mil colors and 8ms, its an MVA panel correct?

Could be a P-MVA panel, an S-IPS, or even a fast MVA.

* If its a P-MVA panel, it could be VP191b quality

* If its a S-IPS panel, the image quality will be a bit lower, you will have more narow viewing angles than a PVA/MVA pannel, and

* If its just a MVA panel, it may have problems with response times. It could jump from 8ms to 20ms on some color transitions, and what the company may be saying is taht 8ms is the fastest response, which average could be more than 8ms

The best thing would be to check on some good reviews or that someone that has it could test it, because its not always true what companies say about their LCDs

Salahuddin

09-11-2005, 03:05 PM

Heh, thats Salahuddin's writing
Salahuddin kind of exagerates things about LCDs, like saying that a 16ms is horrible for gaming when you hardly notice any blur.

Hey that is mean! I don't exaggerate. If ANYONE wants to come over to my house with a 16ms screen and an 8ms screen, even if they are BOTH TN panels, I'm quite certain I can show them such a big difference between the panels that I will get an "Oh wow, that is a big difference," response from them.

Its easy to get used to the afterglow and blurring on a slower LCD panel. That is why people playing on huge 23-inch PVA LCDs with a 25ms response time even tell you they notice no blurring. Just by the mere size of a 23-inch screen you will notice more afterglow than smaller panels.

I'm currently playing on a 19-inch 16ms TN panel as I await the release of some more 4ms panels in my area, and there is a big difference between the 8ms and faster panels I have already tested. Most reviewers who actually test response time in gaming specifically between many LCDs have said the same thing. Find ONE review where someone has tested an 8ms TN panel and found it to be equivalent in performance in gaming to a 16ms or slower panel?

Oh btw Turok, here is the 21-inch 8ms PVA panel you wanted me to let you know about:

http://www.behardware.com/news/lire/07-09-2005/#7781

Ok heres' some questions:

1. Can I still play games at like 1152x864 or even maybe 1024x768 using an LCD with a native resolution of 1280x1024?

2. Would I get ghosting with this LCD: Fuji FP-988D (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824168005)

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Just in case you haven't found any answers to your questions yet, if you plan to buy an LCD, plan to use it ALWAYS in its native resolution. Yes you can use them at 1024x768 or 1152x864 if you must, but scaling on LCDs is by definition poor. So will always have a poorer visual result when compared to a CRT. That being said, some LCDs scale better than others.

As for the particular model you mentioned, I haven't individually tested it... but since it appears to be some type of VA panel and is rated at 12ms, I can't see it being comparable to a fast TN panel in terms of afterglow when gaming. If you're not going to game much on it, however, it looks like a very nice LCD from the specs.

THE JEW (RaVeN)

09-12-2005, 02:20 PM

For 17" I woulda recommended the Samsung 710II instead, but other than that, kick@$$ reviews.

Danne980

09-13-2005, 07:23 PM

Would be nice if a 2405fpw user could coments about the screen in gaming.

I have a screen that i think is pretty much like dell 2405fpw, Samsung 242mp.
Some things differ but it has to be the same panel.
I aint a pro on testing screens but i have with help from friends looked many times for ghosting on the screen and no one could say they see anything. Even ppl that was ranting about slow 16ms screen before. I also have tried games like call of duty 1600*1200 in 4:3 and widescreen streched (native is 1920*1200). Same with that, me and my friends thaught it looked equally good either streched or not, some even thaught it was nicer streched to widescreen, no one said the opposite. And this is ppl that are crt fans. Only thing all off them agreed on, its a very nice screen and works fine for gaming. Maybe not the best but before i seen any faster close up i am satisfied, maybe not after but now i am.
Dont be afraid to buy this kind of lcd´s i thing most ppl will not notice that its 16ms. Some experts i am sure will but i aint one of them and most ppl are not either.

Edit: sorry for the messed up txt, i am very tired.

racinjimy

09-16-2005, 04:49 PM

sed
sed
sed
sed
sed

can't wait need new TV........

dogsx2

09-16-2005, 05:23 PM

Did Dell change the native resolution on these? In a Dell flyer I got at work, it says optimal resolution of 1680x1050.

+Torm+

09-17-2005, 08:35 AM

Hi, i got two 2405 - Turok have asked me do a long set of tests of the screens for the LCD guide.

He also made me aware of the squeal problem - and i checked both my screens for this problem.

There is NO audible sound from either screen when sitting at a normal viwing distance (0.5m to 1.0m).

If i press my ear against the air vents on the back i can hear a very low pitched humm from the first screen.

On the second screen i can also hear the low pitched humm - but on that screen there is also a higher pitched squeel on top of that - almost a ringing sound. Luckily it is not loud. Also the pitch of the sound is much lower than what i usually think of as the typical TV electronics squeel (i have a TV that makes a much higher pitched squeal).

I tested the screens at 1920x1200 resolution with brightness at 50% using the DVI port. Tested in both hot (after 8 hours of use) and cold codition.

I am also doing a number of other tests for Turoks guide, but its taking a bit of time as im taking photos of the screen under different conditions - and its quite difficult to get good shots using a digital camera.

dogsx2

09-18-2005, 08:40 AM

Still looking for an answer to my ?, were the 2405 always native resolution 1680 x 1050 or were they 1920 x 1200 and dell changed them?

Turok

09-18-2005, 09:04 AM

dogsx2

09-18-2005, 10:08 AM

I have a hp f2304 and the native resolution is 1920 x 1200, not just 1920 x 1200 pixels. I always thought resolution on the 2405 was also 1920 x 1200, but it is not. This is why I asked.

Elfear

09-19-2005, 11:38 AM

Turok- I'll post up some impressions in a week or two when I get my 2405fpw. I'm a little worried about motion blur compared to my 2005fpw (I don't notice any at all on it and that's coming from a previous CRT owner) but most of the owners opinions I've read online say they don't notice any.

[XC] leviathan18

09-19-2005, 12:29 PM

ellfear post some pics too im washing my mom brain to buy me one xD so i need PICS xD and some impression should be nice i had a OLD 15" benq lcd and never notice blur i think there is some ppl that is more sensitive to it :P

metro.cl

09-19-2005, 04:22 PM

freaking nice guide

Danne980

09-19-2005, 06:15 PM

I have a hp f2304 and the native resolution is 1920 x 1200, not just 1920 x 1200 pixels. I always thought resolution on the 2405 was also 1920 x 1200, but it is not. This is why I asked.

?!
Isnt Native Resolution always = to amount of pixels on a lcd?
And the 2405 IS 1920*1200 and has probably always been tho the panel in it probably won't change without a name change.

I think in that flyer they missprintet the info.

/Danne

lightiv

09-21-2005, 06:36 PM

Just wanted to pop back in and let you know I have had my N2750W for about two days now and loving it. It is bright as all get up. The default is 50 and I find myself squinting because it is so bright. Sharpness is great once I set my computer to the 1280x720 with a 1:1 Aspect Ratio on the N2750W. Setup was simple and quick.

Gogar

09-23-2005, 12:25 PM

Acer to deliver 24-inch wide screen LCD monitors in October:
http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/Article.asp?datePublish=2005/09/21&pages=PR&seq=208
:slobber:

Turok

09-23-2005, 12:44 PM

Acer to deliver 24-inch wide screen LCD monitors in October:
http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/Article.asp?datePublish=2005/09/21&pages=PR&seq=208
:slobber:

Looks nice

1 Taiwan dollar = 0.0302281 U.S. dollars

20"
NT$ 17,800 = US$ 538.06

24"
NT$ 24,400 = US$ 870.57

If the price is the same in the US, and the specs are as good as they look, it could be the best 20" and 24" LCDs, and one of the cheapest

[XC] leviathan18

09-23-2005, 02:42 PM

[XC] leviathan18

09-23-2005, 02:51 PM

lol well i perhaps could but right now i dont have any and i dont when im going to have one if i have any word soon i would PM you and TUROK cuz i know both wants lcd :P

charlie

09-23-2005, 03:43 PM

I REALLY want that 2405 DELL....

C

Turok

09-24-2005, 05:45 AM

I would wait for those Acer 20" and 24" LCDs that are going to release in October
Could be cheaper, since the price in USD is about $500 (20") and $800 (24")

you guys have any coupons you can share? bets i can find is a 22% so its $938 bucks :( i wante to keep it under $800 ifpossible

www.slickdeals.net usually posts most of the coupon offers from several stores.
In the site, search in order of "D"s and look for "Dell Business" or "Dell Home"
If you already knew this, then I dont know what else to recommend :p:
As I said, I would wait for the Acer to see if its a better solution for around $800.
If it is, Dell will probably lower their prices like 50%, because a 6ms-8ms on a 24" pannel with 1000:1 contrast ratios and 500:1 brightness you would expect it to cost $1500-$2000, wile Acer says its going to sell for around $800 (cheaper than the 2405fpw with nice coupons and discounts)
The cheapest the 2405fpw has gone is about $700 with some lucky discounts.

lightiv

09-24-2005, 05:11 PM

N2750W
so this LCD TV is good for web surfing and such?
saw some saying 27in and 1280x720 makes a big dot pitch, but depending on what you do thats not bad.

I was thinking baout this or a 201b veiwsonic I dont game mostly dvd's and web and I am nearsghtness so bigger would be nice as I dont do glasses at all.

It has DVI input for my 7800gtx correct? also someone said the speakers buzz and oyu can not disbale the speakers at all is this true?

thanks
BTW any pics of it sitting on the windows desktop with a digi cam? would be nice ot see the perspective :)

thanks M8

Hi M8,

I'm very please with this monitor for DVD Playback and Web Surfing.

I'm using DVI input right now. I have not noiced any buzzing coming from the speakers. I do not see where you can diable the speakers but you can turn the volume down to zero.

As for the FP2405 you will want to look at high pitched squeal (http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=dim_monitor&message.id=44518) otherwise I would have probably went with it because of of the CNET reviews by owners of the LCD. My wife is particularly sensative to noise of this type.

Here are the pictures fo the N2750w:

[XC] leviathan18

09-24-2005, 07:14 PM

the high pitch noise was a problem with old models and if you recieve a monitor with that rma it....

i like the 2405 fpw cuz is high resolution and large screen

Aielman

09-25-2005, 09:47 AM

Liquid3D

09-26-2005, 11:24 PM

I'm finally converting to an LCD after waiitng until the technology was cost effective compared to CRT. I loved my IBM 21" (Trinitron) P260 and it's source/s have sentimental value (a gift turing very hard times). It heats an entire house.

[B]This guide has benn the most informative (technically) I've bothered to read. There may a few more in-depth, but your "to the point" writing wastes no time in giving me the info I needed. Thank you.

I need a 19" LCD I see people are conflicting as to which to get.

1st.) How safe is it to have them shipped? This has been the one fact preventing me from purchase. Stores where I live are too costly.

2nd.) I know this question is redundant, but in YOUR opinion what are the best (or best based technology) on buys at the moment on 19" technology and will 19" look larger or even to my current 20" viewable? Is it possible to get a good deal on 19" MVA panels or must I go 19" TN for 300USD - 400USD (approximate) prices?

Liquid3D

09-26-2005, 11:25 PM

I'm finally converting to an LCD after waiitng until the technology was cost effective compared to CRT. I loved my IBM 21" (Trinitron) P260 and it's source/s have sentimental value (a gift turing very hard times). It heats an entire house.

[B]This guide has been the most informative (technically) I've bothered to read. There may a few more showing more models, but your "to the point" writing wastes no time in giving me the technical info I needed. Thank you.

I need a 19" LCD I see people are conflicting as to which to get.

1st.) How safe is it to have them shipped? This has been the one fact preventing me from purchase. Stores where I live are too costly.

2nd.) I know this question is redundant, but in YOUR opinion what are the best (or best based technology) on buys at the moment on 19" technology and will 19" look larger or even to my current 20" viewable? Is it possible to get a good deal on 19" MVA panels or must I go 19" TN for 300USD - 400USD (approximate) prices?

muaddib

09-29-2005, 04:35 AM

I hope somewhere in the next couple of months Dell will supply new products featuring HDCP-DVI/HDMI and HDMI input (and i'll hope on the same sizes and prices too).

Tibu

09-30-2005, 09:51 AM

I got the viewsonic VX924 off of compusa. Had a $100 credit so wtf. Anyways I'm happy to say I can't notice any ghosting or motion blurring on BF2/FFXI/CS:S. One thing that REALLY sucks is that when looking at the sky in BF2 and such, it's a if the game was running in 16bit color mode. You can see color "bands" as the sky goes from bright white to dark blue. It reminds me of the old school Voodoo 2/3 days.

So that sucks. I don't know if it's because of the 16.2 mil colors of the TN panel instead of the 16.7 mil of the MVA panels, but if I had to do it again, I'd prob go with the VP191b for sure. :slap:

Turok

09-30-2005, 02:49 PM

I haven't noticed this mentioned anywhere, but Samsung has a lesser known model, the 214T is a 21.3-inch TFT-PVA. It reportedly has a response time of 8ms G to G, 900:1 contrast ratio, a brightness of 300 cd/m², .27 dot pitch, 1600 x 1200 maximum resolution, a scanning frequency of 30-81 kHz horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical, and a horizontal/vertical viewing angle of 178°/178°.

That makes it better than any of the 20" models, on paper, that I've seen, and the best response time of the 21" models.

There's only a few places that sell it, and it runs in the $750-800 range. I haven't found any decent reviews in a quick google scan, but it may be something you want to check out for inclusion in the guide.

Great guide btw...excellent information.

peace,
Aielman

Looks like a nice LCD.
There's only a few places that sell it, and it runs in the $750-800 range.
Dang... I wonder why there arent many review :rolleyes:

Ill check on that LCD with Salahuddin
He's usually informed with new LCD stuff from BeHardware.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm finally converting to an LCD after waitng until the technology was cost effective compared to CRT. I loved my IBM 21" (Trinitron) P260 and it's source/s have sentimental value (a gift turing very hard times). It heats an entire house.

[B]This guide has benn the most informative (technically) I've bothered to read. There may a few more in-depth, but your "to the point" writing wastes no time in giving me the info I needed. Thank you.

I need a 19" LCD I see people are conflicting as to which to get.

1st.) How safe is it to have them shipped? This has been the one fact preventing me from purchase. Stores where I live are too costly.

2nd.) I know this question is redundant, but in YOUR opinion what are the best (or best based technology) on buys at the moment on 19" technology and will 19" look larger or even to my current 20" viewable? Is it possible to get a good deal on 19" MVA panels or must I go 19" TN for 300USD - 400USD (approximate) prices?

If your IBM P260 is 20" viewable, a 19" LCD will be one inch smaller in viewable area (measuring diagonally of course)

CRTs are measured from the edges of the monitor's casing, wile LCDs are measured by the viewable area.
Another thing you should note is that a 20" widescreen isnt the same as a 20" 4:3 (squared screen). The windescreen will be wider but shorter, because aspect ratios are usually measured from angle to angle in inches.
*I may add this info on the guide with a LCD vs CRT graphical comparison of viewable area measurements

1) Shipping should be safe, or else you should be able to get your money back or a replacement.
It all depends on how the company boxes their products, and how the shipping company handles it.
If the pannel recieves a hard impact on the screen, it could cause some pixels to get stuck, causing what is known as "dead pixels".
When you get your LCD, make sure to test it with everything to see if it has any abnormal issues so you can return it before your return waranty expires.

2) The VP191b (v2) is the best 19" LCD out there. There is a samsung pannel that suposedly uses the same pannel, but I dont know much about it :P
NewEgg sells it for $452 afther shipping. Its worth the extra $52
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824116277

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I got the viewsonic VX924 off of compusa. Had a $100 credit so wtf. Anyways I'm happy to say I can't notice any ghosting or motion blurring on BF2/FFXI/CS:S. One thing that REALLY sucks is that when looking at the sky in BF2 and such, it's a if the game was running in 16bit color mode. You can see color "bands" as the sky goes from bright white to dark blue. It reminds me of the old school Voodoo 2/3 days.

So that sucks. I don't know if it's because of the 16.2 mil colors of the TN panel instead of the 16.7 mil of the MVA panels, but if I had to do it again, I'd prob go with the VP191b for sure.

Ive never seen the VX924 on BF2, so I dont know for sure if its because of the 6 bit color

I think it could be something else tho

Im guessing you hace it connected with your DVI cable, otherwise image quality wont be the same.
Make sure your LCD is well calibrated.

Tibu

09-30-2005, 04:17 PM

Thats the thing. I've never calibrated an LCD. And since I'm using DVI, I can't use the auto calibrate thingie

Any suggestions?

Turok

09-30-2005, 06:41 PM

Thats the thing. I've never calibrated an LCD. And since I'm using DVI, I can't use the auto calibrate thingie

Any suggestions?

You can calibrate your monitor by setting up the colors and everything to the perfect measurements.

To calibrate your monitor in a more precise way, you need something that's called a colormeter/spectrometer which is somethingthat you hang on your screen and it has a sensor that detects the purity of each color with the help of a software (which is included with the hardware).

In THG I found this:
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/display/20050602/viewsonic-02.html
The VX924 did fairly well in the area of color fidelity; colors were faithfully reproduced. Note, however, that the results weren't satisfactory in sRGB mode; we had to re-adjust manually to get the curve shown here. In the absence of graduations, it's hard to say what the optimum adjustment was, except in terms of color temperature, which was 6500 K, as you might have expected.

So this confirms that the monitor requires calibration out of the box.

I also found this in THG:
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/display/20030902/19_lcd-01.html
But before you spend that kind of money, we offer free downloads of our own profiles for each monitor tested. You just need to download them, copy and paste them to your computer and change the color parameters as we advise for each. The end result is worth the time.

but I cant find a VX924 software thing :confused:

I would use a picture with pure colors, and different color scales and try to make RPG look as pure as possible.
You could use this image I googled for your manual calibration:
http://www.fotomag.net/index_pics/Monitor%20calibration%20chart.jpg

Liquid3D

10-02-2005, 05:17 AM

...The VP191b (v2) is the best 19" LCD out there. There is a samsung pannel that suposedly uses the same pannel, but I dont know much about it :P
NewEgg sells it for $452 afther shipping. Its worth the extra $52
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824116277
....Make sure your LCD is well calibrated.
Thank you I really appreciate it. Whom makes this 930B everyone talks about? I know where CRT's were concenred tyhere was two "real" choices Mitsubishi technology and Sony Trinitron technology (i think).

So with LCD's is it Samsung? And whom makes VP191B v2?

How about this Viewsonic (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824116363) for $285

Turok

10-02-2005, 06:41 AM

Thank you I really appreciate it. Whom makes this 930B everyone talks about? I know where CRT's were concenred tyhere was two "real" choices Mitsubishi technology and Sony Trinitron technology (i think).

So with LCD's is it Samsung? And whom makes VP191B v2?

How about this Viewsonic (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824116363) for $285

The LCD I was refering to is the Viewsonic VP191b (v2). I dont know much about the other samsung that uses a simmilar panel.
If you want the best 19" LCD, get the VP191b, otherwise your second option would the the Hyundai L90D+, which you can find between $330-$350.

The 930B is a Samsung LCD, and the panel maker is Samsung too :p:
The VP191B (v2) is a Viewsonic LCD, and the panel maker is AU Optronics.

Was googleing about the VA902b, and it looks like a new LCD
Was released August 6, 2005
Im guessing its an S-IPS pannel because of the specs.
Didnt find any useful reviews.

There is a big problem tho. The LCD doesnt have a DVI port :stick:
*image from NewEgg.com
http://images10.newegg.com/productimage/24-116-363-07.JPG

YanBooth

10-02-2005, 08:22 AM

So.... Turok, whats up man? Its been a while. So, I am sitting here, reading this thread, with my credit card out, and a 23" Apple Cinema HD in my cart, and then this thread, of course, and I am afraid I am going to make another purchase that I am going to regret (case... RAM...).

So, what is a good course of action? I have briefly read abou the new 24" (is that it) with the 8MS response time, or something like that, available in November... I am going to actually read the goddam thread in detail, but what to do??

Thanks a great deal... In advance

Yan

Tibu

10-02-2005, 07:35 PM

Well crap, I found something on this LCD that has me pissed off to high hell. On the bottom of the screen, it has some SERIOUS light bleeding issues. On dark maps in CS:S for example, you can see it very clearly.

Does anyone if I can return the monitor to Compusa because of this?

I was thinking about returning it and exchanging it for this one:

930b (http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=318450&pfp=BROWSE)

Any opinions?

EDIT*

Just checked my receipt and it says I can return it within 21 days of purchase if I'm not sattisfied so I think thats what I'll do. Question is; Is the Samsung 930B suitable for gaming? I think it must be an MVA panel, or I hope at least.

KeithM

10-02-2005, 11:04 PM

Yes, thats right, I'm asking about a monitor that has 930b in its name but not the Samsung 930b, rather the viewsonic vp930b (http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=231791) - I have read that this monitor will possibly be replacing the vp191b. The only difference on paper I see is that the newer viewsonic's panel has a 1000:1 contrast ratio rather than the 191b's 800:1.
But I have learned to be suspicious of "claims" about LCD monitor performance from manufacturers. Does any one own one or have any insights about it? It seems to new to have any professional reviews out about it yet.
Viewsonic vp930b (http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktopdisplays/lcddisplays/proseries/vp930b/index.htm)
I was looking at possibly getting the vp191b but that might turn out to be a bad move if this one is the same in most respects and maybe better in others.

Tibu

10-03-2005, 03:13 PM

Just went to Compusa and exchanged my VX924 for the Samsung 930B. GODDAMITT!!!

This thing has light bleeding ON ALL 4 EDGES of the screen. And on the top edged the light bleeding extends a good 1 1/2-2" down. It completely ruins the gaming experience on dark levels.

On the plus side, it does have GREAT color representaion, no ghosting or motion blurring (in BF2, FFXI, ans CS:S atleast).

I think I'm going to keep it for a couple of days and go back to the VX924.

Does anyone have any opinions on an LCD that doesn't have light bleeding at all?

Liquid3D

10-04-2005, 04:21 AM

I keep hearing about the 930B being the best-value in 19" myself, however; I haven't heard about "bleeding" issues.

Tibu

10-04-2005, 08:37 AM

930b light bleeding (http://ostg.pricegrabber.com/rating_getprodrev.php/product_id=7944615/id_type=M)

Do a find of "bleed" on that web page and you'll read what I'm talking about. Basically it's as if the backlight of the LCD got in through the edges of the screen and completely drowns out the black color on the edges so they look like a dark grey instead of black.

I think I'll go to CompUSA and exchange it for another 930B as one user commented he had to go through 3 930b's till he found one without this issue. If the next one still has the same issue, I'm switching back to the VX924 as the light bleeding on that one is much more minor than this one, and it's only on the bottom of the screen.

I'll miss the better color production on DVD'd and such, but I'm mostly a gamer so I'll just live with it.

Theo404

10-09-2005, 02:58 PM

Can you post a picture of the screen on a compleatly black background so I know what your talking about?

Just thought I'd follow up on a thread I had a few months ago about buying a 19" TFT, but after a good few months use with the display. I ended up going for a viewsonic VP191B, best decision I ever made, in fact I'd go so far as to call it the best computer related purchase I ever made.

Colour reproduction is fantastic, vivid and dynamic, but not to much and not over saturated. Viewing angles are unbelievable, I can watch the screen from anywhere in the room and it still looks perfect. Gaming is just a pleasure, with only VERY minor bluring on a few colour transitions (A flag marker on BF2 against a dark background for example blurs slightly when you move), dark levels look great and bright colourful levels look outstanding. The ergonomics are just brilliant, its hard to believe I ever lived with position adjusting options of a CRT, being able to bring the panel up so its centred on eye line is great, and then dropping to down so its touching the desk and bringing it forward when your watching films/tv is really great. It looks really impressive styling wise, simplistic black lines and V shaped feet make it look and feel profesional and smooth, my desk has never looked so good (black keyboard mouse + pad and the beautiful VP191B).

Overall as you can guess FANTASTIC! If your thinking about this display, forget the price and BUY BUY BUY!!!! I really could NEVER go back to a CRT after using this, I can bearly use CRTs now, they are never focused or the right brightness and the image is always distorted by the curvature of the glass (even on 'flat' CRTs), and I always try and adjust them to suit me looking at it, never works.

agenda2005

10-10-2005, 06:51 PM

Can a 6600GT handle the max resolution for Dell UltraSharp 2405FPW 24-in CD?
I'm looking to buy a Dell UltraSharp 2405FPW 24-inch Wide Aspect Flat Panel LCD and I want to know if my eVGA 6600GT will be able to handle the maximum resolution of 1920 X 1200 at 76Hz.

s0ulfly

10-10-2005, 09:15 PM

im getting a vp 191b this week, theo404 you seem to be happy w this lcd how good is for gamming ?

trakslacker

10-10-2005, 10:55 PM

Can a 6600GT handle the max resolution for Dell UltraSharp 2405FPW 24-in CD?

That's a definite negatory. Check below for a full list of supported cards from Dell.

http://www1.us.dell.com/content/learnmore/learnmore.aspx?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz&~id=monitors&~line=desktops&~mode=popup&~series=optix&~tab=other

Theo404

10-11-2005, 04:59 AM

s0ulfly:

Its brilliant for gaming, with only very slight bluring on certain colour transitions (nearly always just on one point, never big parts of the screen):
Gaming is just a pleasure, with only VERY minor bluring on a few colour transitions (A flag marker on BF2 against a dark background for example blurs slightly when you move), dark levels look great and bright colourful levels look outstanding.

Its really immersive with a 19" LCD, because of the size, and clarity of the image. Honestly you will NOT be able to go back to a CRT, for gaming or anything else.

Salahuddin

10-11-2005, 05:09 PM

Does anyone have any opinions on an LCD that doesn't have light bleeding at all?

I hear you man. I've been testing a lot of TN panels over the months and I think the best "pure gaming" LCD on the market today is the BenQ FP91V+ (a 6ms GTG TN panel). I actually bought it AGAIN after testing it several months ago and am thinking of actually keeping it this time. Backlight bleeding, amongst other things, was one of the major issues that annoyed me for many of the LCD monitors I tested (although I did not try the 930B, I did test the VX924). Both the new and the previous FP91V+ monitors I tried had no backlight bleeding at all that I could notice.

Beware, however, that the BenQ FP91V+ has a glossy screen. Some may find it annoying for gaming and definitely consider the purchase if you don't have control of the lighting in your room. However, I find it a little less glossy than the NEC LCD1970GX (which had major backlight bleeding) and both movies and games really come alive on it. I actually called a bunch of friends over the other day and showed them some movies on it and everyone left quite impressed. Staples carries it here in Canada.

If I return this monitor, it might be for the new Samsung 19-inch widescreen panel just released, the 940MW. It has a widescreen resolution of 1440x900 and is an 8ms TN panel. No reviews on this one yet though that I can find. Also, the FP91V+ has a successor called the FP91V, which is a 4ms TN panel. Problem is that its only been marketed in Europe. The review at hardwarezone.com, however, says the FP91V+ is still better.

Oh and just so everyone knows before deciding to fork out tons of cash for a nice monitor. Windows Vista scheduled for release in less than 18 months from now will apparently make ALL CURRENT MONITORS OBSOLETE. Do a Google search of it to find out the facts... but, as I understand it, it will use a certain high resolution format that no current monitor supports.

Theo404

10-11-2005, 05:34 PM

Windows Vista scheduled for release in less than 18 months from now will apparently make ALL CURRENT MONITORS OBSOLETE.

I seriously doubt this, microsoft would never shoot themselves in the foot like that. Maybe if it was to released in two years, just maybe that would be so, but 18 months??? Would they really expect all windows vista users to buy a new display.....i think not. There will be a patch or even just a different setting that enables you to use current displays.

Turok

10-11-2005, 07:58 PM

Woooo, hold it right there.
No one buy a 2405fpw or any other LCDs > 19" !
You will regret it really bad :nono:

We are at a point where LCD tech is starting to evolve.
Faster, and better looking LCDs will arive, just be patient.

Check out these articles from BeHardware:
1) New TN and VA panel updates. We will start to see 8ms 20", 23", and 24" more accessible in price, and perform better than LCDs like the 2x05FPWs and the Apple Cinemas
http://www.behardware.com/articles/591-1/new-panels-to-be-released-before-christmas.html
2) SED comming soon. SED TVs expected late this year, and SED PC Monitors expected late 2006 - Early 2007. If I were you, I would wait for one of those 8ms 20" VA panels for about 550 € and then update to a SED monitor on 2007.
http://www.behardware.com/articles/593-1/close-encounters-of-the-third-kind-sed.html

agenda2005

10-12-2005, 12:37 AM