What do I need to get Pent D to 4Ghz...

[Puni Puni Poemy]

My Goal (Before I go and buy everything) is to Hit 4Ghz, 100% Stable for every day 24/7 useage. I want to get a Pentium D or Pentium Extreme Edition CPU... Will I need to water cool? or can this be done on good air? Or even do I need to invest in something like a vapo chill. I dont have any intrest in benching the system "just to bench it" My goal is just 4Ghz for 24/7 use.

Any Help on what I might need? PD 820? 30? 40? Or XE.... types of coolers? etc?

I have already decided on an ASUS Intel 955X Mobo...
thanks

[rivers]

My Goal (Before I go and buy everything) is to Hit 4Ghz, 100% Stable for every day 24/7 useage. I want to get a Pentium D or Pentium Extreme Edition CPU... Will I need to water cool? or can this be done on good air? Or even do I need to invest in something like a vapo chill. I dont have any intrest in benching the system "just to bench it" My goal is just 4Ghz for 24/7 use.

Any Help on what I might need? PD 820? 30? 40? Or XE.... types of coolers? etc?

I have already decided on an ASUS Intel 955X Mobo...
thanks

If I don't go wrong, medium range smithfield can do 4ghz on air. With HUGE wattage, but if is not a problem...

[Puni Puni Poemy]

If I don't go wrong, medium range smithfield can do 4ghz on air. With HUGE wattage, but if is not a problem...

As long as I am not throttling under load I am ok with wahtever i have to do.

What type of cooling do you recommend? (air cooling)

[FUGGER]

Vapochill is fine for 24/7 machine. Mine has been on for about a year now other than mobo and cpu swap outs.

I know the Zalman is one of the better coolers and you needs good case air flow.

[Shadowmage]

Oh, please not the Extremely Expensive edition. That money would be better spent on either a topend Dothan or a FX grade CPU.

Anyways, I think getting a good air cooler with lots of case airflow should do the job.

[Puni Puni Poemy]

Vapochill is fine for 24/7 machine. Mine has been on for about a year now other than mobo and cpu swap outs.

I know the Zalman is one of the better coolers and you needs good case air flow.

I would love to get a Vapo , but I dont have the money for that. Im really glad that Their is very little difference between the XE and the PentD.

I just really want to hit a rock solid 4Ghz on Air. I havent owned a Intel Machine in quite some time, Back in the Pentium 3 slot 1 days... but am intrested in going back. Is a 1GHz OC really easy now and days?

I guess I was looking at a Pentium D 3.0Ghz. If I can OC to 266FSB x 15 Multi - That puts me right at 4Ghz. But am Unsure if Air cooling is good enough. I heard these things literly cook they are so hot.

[Lithan]

To get a P4D to 4ghz on air would not be easy at all from all the reports I'm seeing. And if you get a lucky chip that can, it wouldn't be on quiet air. Wait for another revision. These Chips suck donkey parts.

[mr_knowitall15]

Oh, please not the Extremely Expensive edition. That money would be better spent on either a topend Dothan or a FX grade CPU.

Anyways, I think getting a good air cooler with lots of case airflow should do the job.
whats an AMD fanboy like yourself doing here in the intel section, besides voicing your opinion. in MY opinion, up until now thats all the EE's were, but since this ones cores have hyperthreading, it actually has something over the non EE CPUs. IMO, saying the money would be better spent on a dothan or FX is stupid, because while they both are great chips, the FX costs 1100 bucks, and is only single core and will probably be fairly obsolete in a year. whereas a 1000 buck investment on the EE now will serve well for at least a few years.
Also, ive seen a fair amount of people getting 4Ghz, or close to it on stock cooling with stock volts. Id say a good, big copper heatsink, like Zalmans 7700CU, should be a good bet. if you want even more speed, you could go with a water cooling set up if you wish. that will allow you more OC headroom since youll be able to up the Volts a little bit without causing crazy high temsps. Plus, a good watercooling system would probably be quieter than a good, effective aircooling setup.

[ibby]

ull need good cooling,
probably a loud and fast delta fan ....
and a solid base copper cooler.

even then, i think 4 gig will be hard to achive.

maybe water cooling is the better choice, atleast ull
still have ur ears ;)

[Lithan]

Also, ive seen a fair amount of people getting 4Ghz, or close to it on stock cooling with stock volts.


Where have you seen a p4D @ 4ghz on stock cooling with stock volts?
And you're dreaming if you think that Multicore/HT will be required tech in a year. Honestly, that's just insane. It will never be required tech. Right now it's very rare that it's even useful tech for a home user. And it will be more than a year before that changes.

[IvanAndreevich]

Pentium 4 D @ 4 GHz on stock cooling & volts? That's what Intel fanboys dream about at night AFAIK :)

[Puni Puni Poemy]

Well I didnt want to start a war. I just was wondering what I would need to do it on Air. I dont care how hot it gets, as long as it dosent throttle on me. I guess I just will have to go AMD again this round. :(

[dippyskoodlez]

Well I didnt want to start a war. I just was wondering what I would need to do it on Air. I dont care how hot it gets, as long as it dosent throttle on me. I guess I just will have to go AMD again this round. :(

Don't get mad.. get glad :D

nuffin wrong with amd systems-- and right now you can get SLI with the money you'll be saving over buying a highend P4 :D

[Nazu]

4GHz on air? Dream on :D You need very good watercooling or phase change to run 4GHz :stick:

[Puni Puni Poemy]

Don't get mad.. get glad :D

nuffin wrong with amd systems-- and right now you can get SLI with the money you'll be saving over buying a highend P4 :D

Well i have been using AMD Systems since the Thunderbird 1Ghz. Since then I have owned, AXP1800+, and Athlon XP 2500+ OCed.... and Now its plenty time to update. I wanted to go back with intel again. Just because I loved my P3's... And I helped my buddy build a P4 2.4C and it OCed to 3.2 Easy on Air. But that was the good old Northwood Core. And i like it, it was very fast.

So oh well.

[dippyskoodlez]

Well i have been using AMD Systems since the Thunderbird 1Ghz. Since then I have owned, AXP1800+, and Athlon XP 2500+ OCed.... and Now its plenty time to update. I wanted to go back with intel again. Just because I loved my P3's... And I helped my buddy build a P4 2.4C and it OCed to 3.2 Easy on Air. But that was the good old Northwood Core. And i like it, it was very fast.

So oh well.

Ive got a p3 sitting right here, and use many AMD systems... P4's have never seemed like a step up to me. I use P4's at school, and helped a friend build his P4 system, P4's give you some massive numbers, but in real performance, they don't keep up.

Only p4's worth overclocking at this point IMO are northwoods, and those are now scarce, and 4ghz on those are rare.

Check out some of the venice overclocks... they are doing 2700->2800mhz very commonly, even the 3000+'s :D

[Puni Puni Poemy]

Well I wont get a Single Core CPU anymore. Since they are dated now that Multiple threads will lead the way. I am dropping the money for this system, I will have to have it for a good solid 2 years or so. Plus I like the Smoothness of "SMP"/"SMT" etc... :)

So Looks like Athlon X2 4800+ it is :( But I really want an intel Machine still. Oh well.

[mr_knowitall15]

heres one, not stock volts, but air cooling i believe... http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67891
HERES the one ive seen... 4.1 on stock air/volts, 4.6 on vapo, and 5.3-5.4 on cascade.... http://www.ocxtreme.org/forumenus/showthread.php?t=558 :stick: im not really claiming to be an intel fanboy either... im really REALLY seriously thinking about going AMD for dual core on my next build.. the only thing that might keep me Intel is the cheap price on their Pentium Ds, plus the overclocking capabilities they seem to have.

[zabomb4163]

what many are also forgetting is that the pentium D requires an expensive motherboard. 200+$ from what ive seen. (i'm posting this on an intel machine. the pentium D just has a lot of problems)

[Lithan]

Mrknowitall. That's a Screenshot. Knowing P4's it'd be LUCKY if that's stable @ 3.8ghz. More likely it's only stable at 3.7ish. P4's have a huge differential between SS speed and stable speed.

I do find it funny though how P4 users will.


Hell zabomb. Even if it could use any P4 mobo you wanted, it'd still not be worth it. The performance just isn't there. And it's far and away the worst power/watt processor available. It's the Antidothan.

[deltarealm]

As far as intel goes. Would it be better to run a single core for gaming?
Is there any known games that are going to be released in the very near future for dual core, by at least the end of this year.

[mr_knowitall15]

youd prolly be best with an amd if gamings your main concern....

[EvlUndrWareNome]

Ok

First rule of computing, never count on getting a "lucky" chip and build your system around it. Your best bet would be to go with some decent watercooling to be sure of good and stable cooling, and can be had for much less than a vapochill if you do some of the work yourself.

Also you wont get a Pentium D to 4ghz on stock cooling. Keep dreaming.

The Pentium D 830 which runs at 3.0ghz per core sounds like a good choice. These chips have been getting spectacular overclocks depending on cooling. I know in the Xtreme Overclocking section, there is one running @ ~5ghz under DI.

Also next year Intel's desktop Dothans hit. Id love to see a 4800+ beat a Dual Core 3ghz Dothan with 2mb's of cache each taking advantage of dual channel ddr2 and in 2007 they gain a memory controller. Intel really set out its plans, AMD got too confortable with their K8 architecture, and now they will have to up Intel somehow.

[mr_knowitall15]

Mrknowitall. That's a Screenshot. Knowing P4's it'd be LUCKY if that's stable @ 3.8ghz. More likely it's only stable at 3.7ish. P4's have a huge differential between SS speed and stable speed.

I do find it funny though how P4 users will.
.
So? the point is, its at 4.1 on stock volts, meaning, that it MAY be stable at 4 with the same volts, or if not, maybe one step up in voltage. with a good heatsink the lil extra voltage shouldnt cause enough heat to be concerned about. I have a friend who is runnign a single core 3.2 at 3.8 on stock voltage. it will boot all the way up to about 4.15 on stock volts. and hes even using a crappy thermaltake PSU with 18 amps on the 12V rail. In my experiences, 4 ghz with an intel chip should be easily doable with good aircooling.
The way i see it, its all up to personal preferance Puni. All things considered, Amd is prolly winning performance wise in most applications (at least at the high end, havent seen much as far as the other AMD dual core chips go yet...), but intels are fun to OC IMO because of the large gains that can be possible, plus their prices are much more attractive than AMDs right now. With AMds CHEAPEST dual core running at $532, the next step up is $729, then $824, then $1065 for OEM version of the top chip, ($1099 for retail boxed version). where Intels chips are $248 at the low end, $331 for the middle speed chip, and $551 for the top chip speedwise, escept the EE, which is $1015. So considering that you can buy Intels 2nd to top chip, for about the same price as AMDs entry level dual core, you can see the difference in price. However, like i mentioned, if the lower price and overclockability of Intel is enough to outweigh AMDS performance crown is up to the buyer.

[zabomb4163]

I have a friend who is runnign a single core 3.2 at 3.8 on stock voltage. it will boot all the way up to about 4.15 on stock volts. and hes even using a crappy thermaltake PSU with 18 amps on the 12V rail. In my experiences, 4 ghz with an intel chip should be easily doable with good aircooling.


keep in mind that its a prescott that we're talking about which already push air cooling on single core. prescott + dual core generates upwards of 210 watts of heat, thats 3x what my p4 is rated for. now overclock it. this is the reason few motherboards will support the chip. the mofsets get mightly toasty.

[Puni Puni Poemy]

:D I just want to know what I need to get a Pentium D to 4Ghz on Air. Thats all, I dont want to spawn all these arguements.

I dont care if I have to raise the Voltage. I dont care if I need a 80$ 8lbs Heatsink and Noisy Fan... Just need to know what can do it (on air)

Its not that I dont have the money for water, but I am not at that stage yet to trust me Multi Thousand dollar box with putting water inside it. I just dont have the ability to do stuff like that yet.

[deltarealm]

I was like you about water. Made a start with water cooling using a Corsair COOL kit, reasonable price, easy to put together, radiator bolts to back of case, tiny pump, res take one 5" drive bay. Worth a thought.
If anything with air, your be doing your best to stay under the thermal trottle threshold. Add overclock plus voltage, you will be there in no time.

[ZX7891]

Delta, good air coolers will be better than that piece of crap.

[Lithan]

So? the point is, its at 4.1 on stock volts, meaning, that it MAY be stable at 4 with the same volts, or if not, maybe one step up in voltage. with a good heatsink the lil extra voltage shouldnt cause enough heat to be concerned about. I have a friend who is runnign a single core 3.2 at 3.8 on stock voltage. it will boot all the way up to about 4.15 on stock volts.

Methinks someone doesn't put two and two together very well.

In my experiences, 4 ghz with an intel chip should be easily doable with good aircooling.


And how many of those experiences are with P4-d's? Since those would be the only relevant experiences to the question at hand.

That said. A X2 @ 2.8Ghz (actually possible and Commonplace in fact) on air would TROUNCE a p4d @ 4ghz (not been done) on air.


But the relevant question is why are you even looking at dual core. What do you want your rig to do? If you're in a situation where dual core is actually beneficial, then either spring for X2, or settle for a hyperthreading single core cpu. More likely however, you don't need dual core now and should just wait for X2's to drop in price or Intel dual cores to stop sucking :banana:

[mr_knowitall15]

keep in mind that its a prescott that we're talking about which already push air cooling on single core. prescott + dual core generates upwards of 210 watts of heat, thats 3x what my p4 is rated for. now overclock it. this is the reason few motherboards will support the chip. the mofsets get mightly toasty.
where the hell did you get 210 Watts from. Im positive the thermal design was supposed to be 130W, compared to teh single core prescotts 110....

[mr_knowitall15]

Methinks someone doesn't put two and two together very well.




And how many of those experiences are with P4-d's? Since those would be the only relevant experiences to the question at hand.

That said. A X2 @ 2.8Ghz (actually possible and Commonplace in fact) on air would TROUNCE a p4d @ 4ghz (not been done) on air.


But the relevant question is why are you even looking at dual core. What do you want your rig to do? If you're in a situation where dual core is actually beneficial, then either spring for X2, or settle for a hyperthreading single core cpu. More likely however, you don't need dual core now and should just wait for X2's to drop in price or Intel dual cores to stop sucking :banana:
wtf are you talking about...ive tried to help this guy out with his question, ive provided links to people who have done it, so dont say it cant be done. Its negative people like that that just bring down forums like this. *cough (evilunderpantsgnome) Cough cough*. And lithan, all youve condributed is a bunch of wasted space because you seem to feel the need to come over to thius section and rant on about AMD. Did Puni ask "what does it take to get an X2 to xxxx Mhz??? NO! did he ask anything about, "should i get a pentium D or athlon X2? NO! he asked what hed have to do to get a D to 4 ghz, and ive tried to show him something usefull in regards to his question and some morons that are either uninformed, or biased and feel the need to try to persuade other to think their way, are ruining this thread. so people like lithan, do us all a favor and stay in the AMD section if all youre going to do is bash intel. go :hump: youselves. :DCheers :toast:

[Puni Puni Poemy]

lol :D

Well thanks. I understand that it will be tough and might not be able to do it, but I am going to try. I think a good cooler like an XP-120 or something might work out well with a Good Solid 120mm Fan. We will see what I can get...

[Delirious]

Ok

First rule of computing, never count on getting a "lucky" chip and build your system around it. Your best bet would be to go with some decent watercooling to be sure of good and stable cooling, and can be had for much less than a vapochill if you do some of the work yourself.

Also you wont get a Pentium D to 4ghz on stock cooling. Keep dreaming.

The Pentium D 830 which runs at 3.0ghz per core sounds like a good choice. These chips have been getting spectacular overclocks depending on cooling. I know in the Xtreme Overclocking section, there is one running @ ~5ghz under DI.

Also next year Intel's desktop Dothans hit. Id love to see a 4800+ beat a Dual Core 3ghz Dothan with 2mb's of cache each taking advantage of dual channel ddr2 and in 2007 they gain a memory controller. Intel really set out its plans, AMD got too confortable with their K8 architecture, and now they will have to up Intel somehow.


How can u compare technology that wont even be out for another year to tech thats out now? Of course it will probably be better if not match it, but Amd will have something else out by then as well.

[Lithan]

wtf are you talking about...ive tried to help this guy out with his question, ive provided links to people who have done it,

No you haven't. He asked for 100% stable. You told him you've seen multiple people getting 4ghz with stock cooling and volts. That's not help, that's false hope.


so dont say it cant be done.

"To get a P4D to 4ghz on air would not be easy at all from all the reports I'm seeing. And if you get a lucky chip that can, it wouldn't be on quiet air. Wait for another revision."-Lithan

Yep. Not only was what I said completely wrong. But you are correct that I said it couldn't be done. Oh how can I hope to sway his judgement when my AMD fanboyism comes up against your mighty reason.

Its negative people like that that just bring down forums like this. *cough (evilunderpantsgnome) Cough cough*.

In the same way it's people who lock their doors who cause all home burglaries, right?


And lithan, all youve condributed is a bunch of wasted space because you seem to feel the need to come over to thius section and rant on about AMD.

I mentioned AMD once in four posts here. Might I add, after this post, The way i see it, its all up to personal preferance Puni. All things considered, Amd is prolly winning performance wise in most applications (at least at the high end, havent seen much as far as the other AMD dual core chips go yet...), but intels are fun to OC IMO because of the large gains that can be possible, plus their prices are much more attractive than AMDs right now. With AMds CHEAPEST dual core running at $532, the next step up is $729, then $824, then $1065 for OEM version of the top chip, ($1099 for retail boxed version). where Intels chips are $248 at the low end, $331 for the middle speed chip, and $551 for the top chip speedwise, escept the EE, which is $1015. So considering that you can buy Intels 2nd to top chip, for about the same price as AMDs entry level dual core, you can see the difference in price. However, like i mentioned, if the lower price and overclockability of Intel is enough to outweigh AMDS performance crown is up to the buyer.

Where not only do you appear to have an unhealthy fixation on AMD, you also argue for P4D by leaving out key facts. Intel P4D boards cost $100+ more than X2 boards. There is a gigantic advantage with regards to board choice and options with AMD. AMD will have a $345 X2 out in two weeks. AMD's 4200+ beats the tar out of intels 3.2ghz P4D at stock and overclocked (even in your fantasy world where they are getting 4ghz @ stock vcore on stock cooling).

Did Puni ask "what does it take to get an X2 to xxxx Mhz??? NO! did he ask anything about, "should i get a pentium D or athlon X2? NO! he asked what hed have to do to get a D to 4 ghz, and ive tried to show him something usefull in regards to his question and some morons that are either uninformed, or biased and feel the need to try to persuade other to think their way, are ruining this thread. so people like lithan, do us all a favor and stay in the AMD section if all youre going to do is bash intel. go :hump: youselves. :DCheers :toast:

So, in short: Don't point out when you mislead someone because it hurts your widdle feewings?

As for the heat output, you are right about TDP 130watts, yet such is not the full story.
"Processor power dissipation simulations indicate a maximum application power in the range of 75% of the maximum power for a given frequency. Therefore, a system designed to the thermal design point, which has been set to approximately 75% of the maximum processor power would be unlikely to see the thermal control circuit active and experience the associated performance reduction"


Now throw in overclocking and we are obviously well into 200watts+ being a reality.

[mr_knowitall15]

god youre missing the point. all i said was, its possible. it may not happen on every chip, but it can be done. THATS my point. Just because a lot of people said it was impossible, i found a link. Where not only do you appear to have an unhealthy fixation on AMD, you also argue for P4D by leaving out key facts. Intel P4D boards cost $100+ more than X2 boards. There is a gigantic advantage with regards to board choice and options with AMD. AMD will have a $345 X2 out in two weeks. AMD's 4200+ beats the tar out of intels 3.2ghz P4D at stock and overclocked (even in your fantasy world where they are getting 4ghz @ stock vcore on stock cooling). what the hell do you mean an "unhealthy fixation"? all im trying to do is state what ive read about the chips on sites liek anandtech, and what ive seen done in forums.
Quote:
Its negative people like that that just bring down forums like this. *cough (evilunderpantsgnome) Cough cough*. whoops i meant zabomb, sorry undrpantsgnome...

[Zebo]

As long as I am not throttling under load I am ok with wahtever i have to do.

What type of cooling do you recommend? (air cooling)

Need phase, period!

Air?
You will throttle stock with intels dual cores let alone overclocking.
Proof 1 (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66929)
Proof 2 (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/pentiumd-820_5.html)
Originally Posted by X-bit Labs
Pentium D processors do not allow monitoring the temperature of both cores, this feature is implemented only in dual-core server processors. So, to our great disappointment we cannot find out what actually happened with the second core. In our case, only the second core got overheated and went to thermal throttling, while the first core kept working normally.
Proof 3, notice the heart monitor effect on CPU load, that's throttling (http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~smanning/13.mht)

If you OC to 3.8 you are using 338W since a 670 uses 169W and now you got two of them! (This is assuming you don't add volts) No air cooler can handle these temp output w/o throttle.

[Lithan]

It's possible for your cab driver to be a terrorist. That doesn't condone writing down his name and going to the police and telling them you've seen him commiting terrorist acts on several occassions. That is the distinction between presenting a slim chance as a possibility, and making wild presumptions, then declaring them to be documented fact.

[dippyskoodlez]

It's possible for your cab driver to be a terrorist. That doesn't condone writing down his name and going to the police and telling them you've seen him commiting terrorist acts on several occassions. That is the distinction between presenting a slim chance as a possibility, and making wild presumptions, then declaring them to be documented fact.

dual cores almost, or DO throttle with the stock cooler...

I think its safe to say the true chances of getting 4ghz air is pretty rare... :stick:

[FUGGER]

Hitting 4Ghz with 820 and 830 is easier than you may think and it can be done with stock cooler but I reccomend a Zalman.

The key to 100% stability is good case air flow, and how hard is that??

With watercooling 4Ghz can be reached with no vcore increase.

screw what the reviews say, we know better than to setup with 200FSB and 5-4-4-x timing so perfomance marks at that speed are a complete joke when compared to an X2 with 2-2-2-5 timing. The reviewers knew this when the reviews were done. I often see them using ratio's too and that also hurts performance.

Load that X2 with 2GB of memory and it narrows the gap even more.

Face it, we dont have to run our rigs like the reviewers dumbed down config. Even running 266FSB 1:1 3-2-2-4 is a huge improvement over 200FSB 5-4-4-x and that is a no brainer with stock heatsink and stock volts.

Arbitration has lower latency than a HT chip. I dont have a like to back that up but I do know directly from Intel early on when pros and cons were thrown out for dropping HT.

[Lithan]

Strange that they can run 4ghz with stock cooling since according to you fugger, the reason toms test had their 3.2ghz P4D hitting 90*C+ and crashing was due to the fan being a stock 820 fan. Now you say you can hit 4ghz with an overvolted 820 on stock 820 cooler?

Where's your source or evidence of this? No one else has seen a P4D on stock cooler @ 4ghz. And that's not only reviewers, that includes several Xtreme (and other forums) members with these chips who can't get 4ghz on top of the line air cooling, much less stock.

AMD's are going to gain as much FSB (and likely a good deal more) as intels and many reviewers are using 3-2-2 ram for the intels (for example Anand's Linux compairison). So your claims there are unfounded. Speaking of which, what testers used ddr2-400 4-4-4 in their tests? Most used ddr2-667 4-4-4 or ddr2-533 3-2-2 (which at the time were the fastest speeds available without overclocking, and obviously the most fair compairison possible).

I don't know about your source for the Hyperthread versus Dual core claim, but tests of P4D versus P4EE's tend to disagree with you there.

Also what are you basing your claims that P4D's deal with two gigs any better than X2's do. I've yet to find a system of any platform that will run two gigs 1t at low latencies into the mem speeds where these chips would obviously be going.

[zabomb4163]

Strange that they can run 4ghz with stock cooling since according to you fugger, the reason toms test had their 3.2ghz P4D hitting 90*C+ and crashing was due to the fan being a stock 820 fan. Now you say you can hit 4ghz with an overvolted 820 on stock 820 cooler?

Where's your source or evidence of this? No one else has seen a P4D on stock cooler @ 4ghz. And that's not only reviewers, that includes several Xtreme (and other forums) members with these chips who can't get 4ghz on top of the line air cooling, much less stock.

AMD's are going to gain as much FSB (and likely a good deal more) as intels and many reviewers are using 3-2-2 ram for the intels (for example Anand's Linux compairison). So your claims there are unfounded. Speaking of which, what testers used ddr2-400 4-4-4 in their tests? Most used ddr2-667 4-4-4 or ddr2-533 3-2-2 (which at the time were the fastest speeds available without overclocking, and obviously the most fair compairison possible).

I don't know about your source for the Hyperthread versus Dual core claim, but tests of P4D versus P4EE's tend to disagree with you there.

Also what are you basing your claims that P4D's deal with two gigs any better than X2's do. I've yet to find a system of any platform that will run two gigs 1t at low latencies into the mem speeds where these chips would obviously be going.

fugger has had pentium D chips for a very long time. he got them well before they were released to the public. screw tom's hardware. fugger knows what he is doing. you've seen his 400fsb stable thread, right?

[Lithan]

Fugger also uses Phase change. He might know the chips, but I doubt he knows much about the chips when it comes to air cooling. Also, it's pretty obvious he's exaggerating the impact of tighter timings on everything except a few popular synthetic benchmarks.

[zabomb4163]

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66875

[Lithan]

Pretty much confirms what I'm saying. Noone's getting stable at 4ghz with any less than w/c and even then it's hardly "easy". I'm not trying to be an ass about it, but I don't understand why even though he's getting 3.73ghz on air with what's probably a pretty damn good example and certainly the user isn't holding it back, he's here saying that 4ghz on air is easier (than it seems). And that it's possible with stock cooling. I tend to suspect that he's saying 4ghz shots aren't hard to get on air, or maybe even 4ghz sp1m. But what we are talking about here is 100% stable in everything. And 266mhz is a big leap, especially considering that he likely wasn't running stock fan to get that (though he may be).

[Zebo]

Pretty much confirms what I'm saying. Noone's getting stable at 4ghz with any less than w/c and even then it's hardly "easy". I'm not trying to be an ass about it, but I don't understand why even though he's getting 3.73ghz on air with what's probably a pretty damn good example and certainly the user isn't holding it back, he's here saying that 4ghz on air is easier (than it seems). And that it's possible with stock cooling. I tend to suspect that he's saying 4ghz shots aren't hard to get on air, or maybe even 4ghz sp1m. But what we are talking about here is 100% stable in everything. And 266mhz is a big leap, especially considering that he likely wasn't running stock fan to get that (though he may be).

Air??

Who even cares if it's 4ghz stable if the chip is turned off half the time? Show me two SS one with 2 instances of SPi 32M @ 3/4 done, and one done with throttlewatch open the whole time during both SS.

I'll make a few predictions based on what I've linked earlier
1. The system probably will not complete the benches and if it does,
2. No air solution won't throttle at any speed above 3600Mhz.
3. The scores will be signifigantly different above 3600Mhz.

[boshuter]

LMAO...... I read this whole thread and then had to make sure I wasn't on Anandtech with all the AMD fanboys crapping on every Intel thread thats posted :slapass:

If you took out all the replies from people who have absolutley no experience with the subject at hand other than what they have read "on the internet".... this thread would only be 2 replies long.. :rolleyes:

[Zebo]

And you could'nt even add links.. pretty worthless post other than to fan some flames.

How about you, or anyone, show 20-30min loaded of PentiumD OC air goodness w/o throttle?

yea.. "show me"

[Lithan]

LMAO...... I read this whole thread and then had to make sure I wasn't on Anandtech with all the AMD fanboys crapping on every Intel thread thats posted :slapass:

If you took out all the replies from people who have absolutley no experience with the subject at hand other than what they have read "on the internet".... this thread would only be 2 replies long.. :rolleyes:


Yep everyone who tells you that P4's can't run 50million ghz and cure cancer in minutes is an amd fanboy. Of course by your logic that means that amd fanboys are the only ones who know what they are talking about, since you haven't found a p4d @ 4ghz, 100% stable on air.

Amazing how the fanboys are crapping on the thread for actually giving the guy an honest answer. Meanwhile the 'others' are BS'ing him left and right about how 4ghz is easy on air and P4-D's are made of candy. You know what, if he wants to listen to that and buy a p4d in order to get 4ghz on air, more power to him. Let him learn the hard way that people without a leg to stand on just call anyone who argues their baseless, insane arguements a fanboy of whatever competes with the product they are selling.

[Nasgul]

bla, bla, bla, bla.....
It's time for you to (http://home.comcast.net/~dvrh10/vba0354bb97.gif)

Here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/dob1224/4334.jpg), enjoy.

Pathetic. You think you know, you don't even know that the correct name is not "P4D", it's PENTIUM D.

Intel Processors are much, much...better than amd (advanced Mexican devices and hector ruiz) any given day.
Don't belive?
Here, go spend your time here:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26650&highlight=amd+death
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66550
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66648
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67261

You will have to laugh at this one :rofl: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68708 so much for the great pos ever.

While you're at it, go find out why the turd-ion cpus suck so much: http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=turion64&page=1

When it comes to Intel, you don't know anything. And to your dismay the Pentium 4 CAN run at over 50+GHZ,
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/Nasgul/Insane.png.


:banana:

[Lithan]

One wonders if an AMD troll behaved like Nasgul, how long it'd take for him to be banned.

[Puni Puni Poemy]

Sorry to resurrect this from the dead but Ii have a few more questions.

With a Pentium D, Am I able to lower the Multiplier if I want to (Or is it fully locked)

Also I was thinking about finally sucking it up and stepping into water cooling.

is 4333Mhz Possible with a Pentium D on water?

4333MHz (13x333)
1333FSB (333x4)
DDR2 @ 1000 (3:2)

Is this even Possible? Thanks

[Lithan]

Most people I see can only get 4.3-4.5ghz on Single stage, so I think 4-4.2 is about the max you'll see typically on water.

[Donnie27]

keep in mind that its a prescott that we're talking about which already push air cooling on single core. prescott + dual core generates upwards of 210 watts of heat, thats 3x what my p4 is rated for. now overclock it. this is the reason few motherboards will support the chip. the mofsets get mightly toasty.

First of all, you can get an i945P instead of an i955X. These sell for as little as $119. They're similar to buying a none SLI or Ultra nForce4 for you AMD fans, sheesh!

How much power?

http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=pee840&page=4
One of their other review talk about heat.

Donnie

[Donnie27]

Sorry to resurrect this from the dead but Ii have a few more questions.

With a Pentium D, Am I able to lower the Multiplier if I want to (Or is it fully locked)

Also I was thinking about finally sucking it up and stepping into water cooling.

is 4333Mhz Possible with a Pentium D on water?

4333MHz (13x333)
1333FSB (333x4)
DDR2 @ 1000 (3:2)

Is this even Possible? Thanks

NO! Only the Extremely Expensive model is unlocked.

Donnie

[Puni Puni Poemy]

NO! Only the Extremely Expensive model is unlocked.

Donnie

Not even the Lower Multis huh. That sucks

Well what If I were to get an EE? All cost aside just for purposes here for my general knowledge... Are they binned to OC higher? and then I could play with the Multi.. so then what I said before be possible?

[Lithan]

Binned to OC higher? No, no cpu manufacterer does that. As long as it can run stock speeds in their testing and they need it, it's sold as a top end chip. If they don't need it and/or it cant run top end, it's dropped down. Not really sure how HT works internally, whether they make all the D's with HT and just disable it or whether they Make the EE's seperately and aren't (yet) selling the ones that won't run stock.

According to intels spec, the 840's use ~ 175watts maximum @ stock.
According to intels spec when compaired with the measurements donnie linked to, they use ~ 220watts maximum @ stock (assuming the testers were loading all processors equally.

[mr_knowitall15]

wow thank you people like fugger and donnie, and nasgul, for helping me prove a point. and lithan, thank you for FINALLY being civil. the last two posts you made were actually good. :clap:

[Lithan]

Everyone in this thread except nasgul and yourself have been civil.

[socrilles]

Sooo, I was thinking about a Dell OCing project #3. So far I have a 9300 with PM 1.6 @ 2.13, a Dell 8400 630 @ 4 ghz, and am now considering a 9100 2.8 P4D @ 3.73 any opinions for doing this on air at stock voltages? earlieer posts seemed to think 3.73 would be possible on air

[Lithan]

Not in a Dell. Dells are designed to just barely get by with their cooling (for silence). You'd definately need to upgrade the cooling for stability/not throttling. 3.73 is possible with good air cooling though. Not sure about stock vcore. So far the only overclocks I've seen with stock vcore are simple Suicide screens or else running on cascades. I'd say 3.6ghz with upgraded air cooling on stock vcore wouldn't be too hard, but that's mostly a guess. 3.73 I'd suspect would require a little extra vcore.

[socrilles]

Actually you would be surprised at how good the cooling on Dells are these days, if you glanced at my post more thoroughly, you would see I have a 3 ghz chip running at 4 ghz in a Dell. The HSF included has 4 heat pipes, and is probably 2.5X2X4 LWH, something that would cost $50ish at any retail store. Since the Dells support the higher end processors ie Dual Core EEs, and P4 3.8 ghz the HSFs they use have to be able to cool the high ends, and are still included with the low end processors.

look at the HSF at the bottom of this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5220255740&category=52476&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1) auction for reference

[FUGGER]

Lithan, might I suggest owning a 820 or 830 before running it into the ground.

It is a fact they run cooler than the 840 by a large margin and I do not believe any binning was done. The 840 has HT enable whitch usually led to a bit cooler temps but that trend does not follow with the dual core.

Do not compare what THG did, they used a heatsink from a 2.8Ghz CPU (check the amps) and it was one that required a shroud to duct in air. If you go off on using a shround then I will go off on having to use clips or having to use a power supply. Its part of the spec and should be followed for best results. We all know a hot case is not good for the dual core as you are running two prescott cores.

I said 266x14 was easy without raise in vcore but to reach 4Ghz a slight raise might be needed for weaker boards.

Taking into consideration you are slightly educated and use a good case like the antec lanboy with dual 120's and a good zalman heatsink there is not a problem disipating the heat load and no throtteling will take place.

Enough of the nay saying, unless you own one and report in on results bagging on this topic will be frowned upon.

[Lithan]

I don't own a Humvee, but I know they are gas guzzlers. You and everyone talk like 4ghz stable on air is a simple matter, but you've yet to provide a single example of this. Whereas at least a couple examples of much less on air and only slightly more on phase change have already been posted. If you say that noone can say bad about a product without first buying it, then that kind of reduces the discussion of Intels Duals to fanboy gushing, since after the results of every single review (including some from well-known intel biased sites) no objective buyer would purchase one, especially not overclockers, seeing as single core p4's destroy these things in just about everything when both are overclocked, without even considering amd's offerings.

As to a shroud, I saw the heatsink, it's design was NOT one that would benefit more than slightly from a shroud. In fact it is in layout almost the same as their current retail heatsinks, designed in such a way as to achieve maximum effect from the way an unshrouded fan directs air. (a star pattern so to speak).


Socrilles, a couple points.

First, Dell does not have a universal heatsink. If you bought a 2.8ghz sc400 you got a different heatsink than if you bought a 3.2ghz (I know because I bought both). I owned the heatsink you are talking about, It had too few fins, spaced too far apart, and the joint between the copper and aluminum was poor. You could buy a similar heatsink these days for under $20 at coolergarage most likely. Also, it relied on indirect airflow from a case fan ducted to ~ 1cm above the heatsink. Almost identical to the cooling on my old P200 gateway. You might also mention that your 4ghz overclock was not stable as I recall reading. It was impressive for a dell, but I'm sure that in a warm room, you would have had temperature issues even if the overclock was stable. Also, I don't believe you were monitoring throttling on that machine... were you? And we are talking about a Single core Prescott 6, not a multicore prescott (which I believe is based off the 5 model though I'm not sure). There is ~ 100 watts difference at stock here.

Second, Dell uses temp-adjusted fans. But these fans aren't very powerful even at full speed. So there is a ceiling to the wattage they can deal with. It's a safe bet that a singnificantly overclocked Dual core will hit this ceiling and hard.
Third, Dell's case cooling (at least on their affordible servers and home pc's) is absolutely horrendous. Unless they have a direct duct out of the PC from the heatsink, this will be a huge thermal issue no matter how effective their cpu cooler is.

[FUGGER]

Lithan

The shroud is to pull fresh outside air and that is important.

Yes I have tested the 820 and in my threads you will find results. I had no problem pushing to 4Ghz on air with a Zalman. Eshbach as well has breached 4Ghz with stability on air.

The dual core is superior to HT in many ways, one is lower latency with arbitration and the other is true multi core processing. It will work circles around a HT or single core in threaded applications not just synthetic benches. Sure single cores are good for games and single stuff and can perform better in this scenario. But of you need dual CPU, the dual core is an option.

All of the lame reviews are on the EE part from what I have seen, this same also holds true about THG getting fresh air to the CPU from outside the case. No matter how much you do not want to accept this, its part of the spec.

The memory timing is so critical and to dumb the Intel down with crap timing hurts it very bad. And to throw a memory ratio in the mix compounds the problem more. And the AMD gets 2-2-2-5 1T...

Lets get away from reviews, this is XS and we do not live with SPD timing at stock FSB. That being said, the 820 or 830 at 266FSB 1:1 3-2-2-4 1T the picture changes drasticly and gives the X2 a run for a lot less. We do not have to run crappy ass settings the reviewers run nor do we have to run inferior heatsinks.

[FUGGER]

Quoted Lithan:

"Good luck with the chip. God, Xtremesystems has gone to the trolls. It's like the Intel version of anandtech. If I see one more imbicile claiming 4ghz is easy @ stock vcore and stock cooling with 820's, someone's gonna die."

Your input on this topic is understandable but your negativity is unacceptable. I am not sure whats your beef with Intel but you are the one trolling here from those who reported your posts.

My retail chip was from Fry's and was $299, not a hand picked sample in any way. I used a P5WD2 mobo. The machine now lives/runs at 4.4Ghz 1:1 3-2-2-4 turbo and was pushed to 4.9Ghz for benching.

Please reread, this imbicile clearly stated upgraded heat sink and small increase in vcore for 4Ghz

Im not mad at you Lithan as I see where your comming from but please dont disrespect us like that or you will lose all respect with the community here.

Calling us trolls and imbiciles requires an apology from you. That was uncalled for and did not go un noticed.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67891&highlight=p5wd2

[Lithan]

Lithan

The shroud is to pull fresh outside air and that is important.

The side was off in toms test, and the 840ee w/ 820 HSF was therefore getting fresh outside air and still breaking 90*C before it would crash.


Yes I have tested the 820 and in my threads you will find results. I had no problem pushing to 4Ghz on air with a Zalman. Eshbach as well has breached 4Ghz with stability on air.

Links to SS of dual primes?

The dual core is superior to HT in many ways, one is lower latency with arbitration and the other is true multi core processing. It will work circles around a HT or single core in threaded applications not just synthetic benches. Sure single cores are good for games and single stuff and can perform better in this scenario. But of you need dual CPU, the dual core is an option.

In every review I've seen, HT performs better for intel in more instances of multithreading than Dual Core. Throw in that you are clocking higher and unless you have an 840ee running quad high util apps or dual high util multithread apps, it's no contest. What's your source on lower latency in arbitration? That's counterintuitive, so I'd like to see some evidence.

All of the lame reviews are on the EE part from what I have seen, this same also holds true about THG getting fresh air to the CPU from outside the case. No matter how much you do not want to accept this, its part of the spec.

ee adds about 6watts of consumption, so its highly doubtful it adds more than that in heat.

The memory timing is so critical and to dumb the Intel down with crap timing hurts it very bad. And to throw a memory ratio in the mix compounds the problem more. And the AMD gets 2-2-2-5 1T...

Memory timings affect 3dmark 2001 and spi pretty severely, but in most everything else I've seen, it wont be more than a couple % points. (Edit: also certain compression/decompression tasks get hit pretty hard with loose timings.)

Lets get away from reviews, this is XS and we do not live with SPD timing at stock FSB. That being said, the 820 or 830 at 266FSB 1:1 3-2-2-4 1T the picture changes drasticly and gives the X2 a run for a lot less. We do not have to run crappy ass settings the reviewers run nor do we have to run inferior heatsinks.

P4's are competitive with loose timing ddr2, they get a little better with tighter timings. How do you maintain that a chip of essentially the same design goes from not even close to competitive to competitive with the same changes?

Quoted Lithan:

"Good luck with the chip. God, Xtremesystems has gone to the trolls. It's like the Intel version of anandtech. If I see one more imbicile claiming 4ghz is easy @ stock vcore and stock cooling with 820's, someone's gonna die."

Your input on this topic is understandable but your negativity is unacceptable. I am not sure whats your beef with Intel but you are the one trolling here from those who reported your posts.

I have no beef with Intel. All I do is point out that just because a chip doesn't live up to expectations, you can't just pretend that it does and challenge people who advise against purchasing it to prove you wrong by buying one. That's asinine.

My retail chip was from Fry's and was $299, not a hand picked sample in any way. I used a P5WD2 mobo. The machine now lives/runs at 4.4Ghz 1:1 3-2-2-4 turbo and was pushed to 4.9Ghz for benching.

Now was that on Cascade or just single stage? Hell people are benching Dothans near 4ghz. I'd hardly call 4.9ghz a success for netburst architecture. Aren't you benching close to 6ghz with single cores these days?


Please reread, this imbicile clearly stated upgraded heat sink and small increase in vcore for 4Ghz


Im not mad at you Lithan as I see where your comming from but please dont disrespect us like that or you will lose all respect with the community here.

Calling us trolls and imbiciles requires an appology from you. That was uncalled for and did not go un noticed.

If you didn't say that 4ghz was easy on stock vcore and cooling, then I wasn't talking about you. But to make such an outrageous claim is trolling. To maintain it against all reason and logic is imbecility.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67891&highlight=p5wd2
Once again we are confronted with the difference between Screenshot stable (and almost synonymous, sandra stable) and 100% stable. You've worked with P4's surely more than I have. And even I know that on a p4 Sandra stable is Hundreds of mhz away from actual stability.

[FUGGER]

Side off is not pulling fresh air to CPU, its stagnant and no air flow at all is happening and the EE runs a lot warmer, I know as I have the 840EE and it can only do 3.73Ghz on stock vcore.

best you will get from me is a 32m pi. I dont run prime for hours.

My source on arbitration is Intel, I am an Intel developer. This was knowledge we had back before you even heard of dual core.

Think back when HT was introduced and people complained in the performance hit when compared to cores without HT??

where did you come up with ee adds 6 watts?

Like I said, forget about reviews and crap timing. Quit with the nonsense on loose timings is good stuff.

If you look at the other screen shot it shows a cinebench but that is a short intensive run as well.

When you are talking trash about XS you are talking about me and I take it personal.

Next post better be an apology from you, the lack of one already shows your intent.

[Lithan]

Side off is not pulling fresh air to CPU, its stagnant and no air flow at all is happening and the EE runs a lot warmer, I know as I have the 840EE and it can only do 3.73Ghz on stock vcore.

That's not true unless the fan only flows ~ 10cfm or less or is in a very small case. With the flow a typical 80mm fan gets, the air is easily reintegrated with room air and within a degree or two of ambient when it get's fed back to the fan. The much more important purpose of a shroud is to direct airflow (hard to see on heatsink fans, but with a box fan, the effect is very evident). By preventing intake at an angle you decrease the angle of the exhaust. But due to Intel's heatsink design (which takes advantage of angled exhaust from the fan), this wouldn't be desirable. The only thing Intel could hope to gain from an intake shroud would be to keep fresh air at the cpu in spite of case temps. In actuallity, it's impact on airflow would probably do more damage than good when compaired with an open case.


best you will get from me is a 32m pi. I dont run prime for hours.

My source on arbitration is Intel, I am an Intel developer. This was knowledge we had back before you even heard of dual core.


32pi takes what, 20min? How about dual runs of Prime for 20min?

I'm not saying you are lying. I believe you were told that. But I suspect it was PR BS used by all Marketing people, because they don't understand it and they assume you won't either. I'd like to see some white pages that mention this if you can find/provide them.


Think back when HT was introduced and people complained in the performance hit when compared to cores without HT??

So we're compairing undeveloped HT with unoptimized programs versus the current incarnation of HT and programs that have been building on HT for years? You know that isn't fair. With a few Unoptimized HT programs and in certain Multitasking situations (due to problems with HT, HT does have problems with task assignment, but this is a flaw of HT (A bug if you will) and fairly uncommon. It's not a matter of Dual cores performing better. It's similar to putting a single core w/o HT into some of the tests we've seen (high priority encoder + low priority game and use games FPS to decide winner in a 3200+ versus 3.2c situation for example) you are setting it up to lose intentionally, so of course it isn't a fair compairison.


Edit: It's very likely Dual cores may perform better in most tasks once we are using apps optimized for dual cores instead of HT-enabled single cores. But by then Intel will have much better dual core cpu's out, so I can't recommend buying a D based on that prediction.


where did you come up with ee adds 6 watts?

System consumption of identical systems with 840 ee (ht) on/off @ full load.

Like I said, forget about reviews and crap timing. Quit with the nonsense on loose timings is good stuff.

I never said it was good. I said it wasn't as bad as you make it out to be. If it was as bad as you try to make it sound, there would have been a massive public outcry when Intel switched to DDR2. As it was, there was a minor performance hit that mostly slipped under the public's radar.


If you look at the other screen shot it shows a cinebench but that is a short intensive run as well.

I did miss that.


When you are talking trash about XS you are talking about me and I take it personal.

I've seen some pretty abject behavior by certain members here and I comment on that. You don't have to ban people for lying, trolling, or verbally assaulting others in your forums but then you also can't blame the people who complain about this behavior if you don't.

Next post better be an appology from you.

I'm sorry that I was in a bad mood and made the mistake of referring to the forums when I only meant to refer to the small group of members who were making the loudest noise here at the time. There are plenty of good members who didn't deserve to be lumped in with those.

[FUGGER]

Thanks,

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=61954&highlight=smithfield

Pretty much all the results I cannot match or even get close with my 3.73EE at stock speed (14x266) same as my air stuff in that thread.

dual core arbitration is better than HT, by how much depends on the application. I mean if you are running web server in background and playing doom3 vs ripping DVD and playing doom3 the dual core would fare much better at the DVD + game though both would do good at web serving and game.

In professional applications, like Postershop (a program to resize images to billboard size) an HT processor would appear as a single CPU and the application would not run as a true dual CPU even though you could start two instances. The dual core would show up as two processors and you could run in dual cpu mode correctly there are a few other applications that react this way that I have run across, another is wasatch.

You have two of the top dual core clockers and a link to another member running it now. That should be a pretty good indication that the 820 and 830 are good clockers. I can say for sure that the 840EE is a much heavier load on the system for some reason in the design, maybe its the HT logic heating it up a bit more where that is dead space in the 820/830.

[FUGGER]

I just ran these at 3.73Ghz, the same speedas the dual core. Its a single and shows that you lose 2 seconds with semi crap timing, I could add a few 5's in there to see how much worse it gets.

I wonder how much OC on the CPU I would need to make up those 2 seconds.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34339&stc=1

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34340&stc=1

For bandwidth intensive apps this is a huge performance hit. And I am sure most of the reviews would have favored Intel in a lot more tests that were run.

[Lithan]

Those are all synthetic's though. How about some running some Ht-enabled encoders and some Single-threaded encoders + Heavy net use and Single threaded encoders + Playing (with whatever player you use) a dvd ripped onto a hard disk on a seperate channel from the drive you are encoding from/to?

The simple matter for this thread is that 4ghz is far from easy. You say you hit it, but your stock vcore max (if I understand you correctly) was 3.73ghz. Obviously you weren't too interested in your air max, since you're going to be PC'ing it 24/7, and you've said you aren't a Prime-er, so even if you hit 4ghz, you can't really say that it was 100% stable. I'd wager the best you can say is that it was benchmark stable. Which with the complexity of dual cores combined with the heat concerns of this processor isn't enough to point to it as stable in my opinion. Also, so far you are the only person I've seen to even claim to personally have hit 4ghz stable on air. Whereas I've seen 2 people who failed as much with water, 4 who failed as much on air, and about half a dozen who only couldn't get 4.5ghz stable on single stage. Even if you can get 4ghz completely stable, you must conceed that isn't enough to advise someone to purchase the same chip on the expectation of the same.

A much bigger thread would address the memory bandwidth issues that it's rumored this architecture will face once dual core is fully supported by software. The lackluster 64bit performance (which will very likely come almost hand in hand with dual core support for home users). The heat and power issues, that even though you say aren't sufficient to be a concern, are certainly at issue for some when compaired with AMD's offerings. And the near certainty of a much much much better processor (and at an acceptable pricerange) from intel within a year. It's like telling someone to buy a $250 Athlon Xp in 2002.

[Lithan]

I just ran these at 3.73Ghz, the same speedas the dual core. Its a single and shows that you lose 2 seconds with semi crap timing, I could add a few 5's in there to see how much worse it gets.

I wonder how much OC on the CPU I would need to make up those 2 seconds.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34339&stc=1

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34340&stc=1

For bandwidth intensive apps this is a huge performance hit. And I am sure most of the reviews would have favored Intel in a lot more tests that were run.


Be fair though, short of compression utilities, Spi is about the most affected by timings of any benchmark.


Edit: Compair these two reviews. For the AMD x2 vs Intel D, Intel has 4-4-4... but for the Amd 64 vs Intel D (2.8ghz) vs Intel 630, Intel has 3-2-2. You can get a fairly good grasp of the impact timings have by cross-referencing.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2410&p=9

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2389&p=7


1st multitask test. Intel 3.2ghz D (4-4-4) no HT beats Intel 2.8ghz D no Ht (3-2-2) by 8.25%

2nd: can't be compaired (they changed the method)


EDIT:


Scratch that. Found a compairison with a 3.2ghz D @ 3-2-2... so compare

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2388&p=7

with

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2410&p=11

Only difference I can tell is 4-4-4 5:3 vs 3-2-2 4:3

[FUGGER]

99% of the machies that we build leave at stock speeds. I get the most out of them with memory timing and OS tweaks.

The other overclocks you mention, were they on P5ND2 or P5WD2 or ? The AW8 has 300+ FSB issues

Gimme a few days to finish my builds, I will be using a aftermarket heat sink.

[Lithan]

99% of the machies that we build leave at stock speeds. I get the most out of them with memory timing and OS tweaks.

The other overclocks you mention, were they on P5ND2 or P5WD2 or ? The AW8 has 300+ FSB issues

Gimme a few days to finish my builds, I will be using a aftermarket heat sink.

No problem. I look forward to it. I've actually got 3 or 4 others across a number of forums who just got 820/830's assuring me they'll let me know their results.

[Lithan]

Results

5:3 loose - 4:3 tight
21.3 - 21.3
143 - 143
197 - 197
171-171
34.3-34.7 (Multimedia content creation winstone 2004, Tight timings won)
257-257
336-336
259-259


After that it starts jumping around between tests and they change their methods a lot across the reviews. I did one more. Xvid with autogk.

36.2-36.2

So as far as I can tell, Anand didn't do amd any favors by running intel at a positive divider 4-4-4 instead of 1:1 3-2-2 (though in gaming and compression, it probably did hurt intel a little, you'll have to check those because all this alt-tabbing hurts my head). In fact by running AMD 1:1and intel 5:3, it looks like if anything they gave Intel an advantage in many cases.

[socrilles]

Lithan a few points in response:

I said that for a given system, say the 9100 which uses anything from the p4 630 to the EE dual core P4 the HSF is the same, not that all dell systems use the same HSF. So the point still stands that the HSF on the 630 was designed to be able to cool the higher end processors. My 4 ghz OC on my Dell, wasn't 100% but it was able to run two instances of prime for 90 minutes and generated 1 error, and yes I was monitoring throttling it never throttled and actually the speed varied from about 3.98 ghz to 4.13 ghz while running prime. The fact I got 1 error, probably had little to do with the cooling - the HS was not that warm, and probably more to do with the inabiliity to adjust Vcore. Lastly there is a direct duct on the HSF that pushes plenty of air - the after markeet HSFs we buy that can't have a duct/ shroud or whatever built specifically for the box they are in do not move air nearly as well as the ducts built into OEM boxes, even my friends old slot A athlon was cooled way better w/ HP cooling then the tripple fan HS that we replaced it witth so we could use a GFD. And no the HSF in the Dell is not something your going to pick up for $20, just like your comments about the Pentium 4 D's, you are making wild assumptions about something you have little experience with.

Oh I also decided to run two instances yesterday, with ambient around 85 F I primed for 1 hr, stopped it after that there were no errors, and HSF still felt relatively cool, ie no where near the temp HS would get to with athlon 1 to 1.4 ghz, and the early palomino cores.

[Lithan]

I owned the heatsink you have for two years. It's nowhere near the quality of a xp-90 and you can get an xp-90 for $25. Also the "triple-fan" coolers sold for slot 1/a processors were about the worst heatsinks ever. That's why they sold for $5 on ebay.

Also, if I recall, @ stock a 1.4 Palimino put out about 70-80W Theoretical max. A p4 6XX @ 4ghz puts out ~130W theoretical max @ stock vcore.Speaking of assumptions.

And that motherboard either has serious problems or else your monitoring software does. Cpu speed shouldn't fluctuate 150mhz while a system is running. It shouldn't even fluctuate more than 1-2 times the CPU's multiplier when rebooted.

It was three years ago when I checked, but I believe the 90mm they hooked up for me was their "high-flow" model and maxxed at 42cfm. It was exhausting and ducted about 4" with a 90* bend, unsealed. I marvelled at the efficiency of it's design.


Also, I'm making statements based on the results of dozens of people I know with these processors. You and others are making claims based on nothing other than what you wish these chips could do. Hell, there'd still be people in here saying they could do 4ghz stable @ stock cooling and vcore if you had your way.

[unstoppable]

What about PSUs, will my trusty Antec Truepower 550W be able to feed with enouph power a system with a Pentium D@4GHz and an ATi X850XT

[Lithan]

You won't have stability issues, but a 8XX overclocked to ~4ghz with a small voltage bump and a x850 xt plus a gig of ram and your typical parts will probably eat 375-425watts of DC power @ full load. Most people recommend keeping your PSU's A/C usage under the rated wattage. Depending on how well that matches up with your PSU's line values, it could limit overclocking. It'd be like running a duallie on a PSU that wasn't designed for it essentially. Probably not noticably hindering, but you'll always worry.

[Nazu]

I'm sorry that this post doesn't really concern this thread but i just got a few questions. I'm running now 4.1GHz and vcore is at 1.45v from bios and chipset is voltage is 1.6v and memory 1.9v, and now to the problem-> I can't get past these clocks and i don't now how much i should rise my voltages or are they already too high? For cooling I'm using Asetek Antarctica waterblock with the cpu and the nb is also watercooled so temps arent't the problem i think. If somebody could help me i would be greatful :toast:

[Lithan]

I'm sorry that this post doesn't really concern this thread but i just got a few questions. I'm running now 4.1GHz and vcore is at 1.45v from bios and chipset is voltage is 1.6v and memory 1.9v, and now to the problem-> I can't get past these clocks and i don't now how much i should rise my voltages or are they already too high? For cooling I'm using Asetek Antarctica waterblock with the cpu and the nb is also watercooled so temps arent't the problem i think. If somebody could help me i would be greatful :toast:


Voltage doesnt really do much for p4's past a certain point. All the ones I've own max out within .15 of stock vcore (on air/water) and after that get voltage increases just add heat without giving any more mhz. 4.1ghz is probably close to your rigs limit.

[FUGGER]

I'm sorry that this post doesn't really concern this thread but i just got a few questions. I'm running now 4.1GHz and vcore is at 1.45v from bios and chipset is voltage is 1.6v and memory 1.9v, and now to the problem-> I can't get past these clocks and i don't now how much i should rise my voltages or are they already too high? For cooling I'm using Asetek Antarctica waterblock with the cpu and the nb is also watercooled so temps arent't the problem i think. If somebody could help me i would be greatful :toast:

You should not have to raise any voltage other than core for FSB lower than 300Mhz. 1.45 is about right for the speed. Try to use a memory divider and drop the memory speed back to see if that is holding you back.

Try more memory voltage, should be safe to test 2.2v

[olDirdey]

Voltage doesnt really do much for p4's past a certain point. All the ones I've own max out within .15 of stock vcore (on air/water) and after that get voltage increases just add heat without giving any more mhz. 4.1ghz is probably close to your rigs limit.

I think it´s not the same on all P4 CPU´s. P4 with Prescott core often max out within voltage you said. Most time they will do a high fsb with stock vcore. But if you own a Mobile P4 like 3.06 HT for example you can see that the fsb is scaling linear to the vcore. Starting from 1.2V up to 1.65V f.e. you can see every 0.1V that you can reach a higher FSB.

I tried this on 4 Mobile CPU´s from 1.8 up to 3.06 HT, on every the same. And each one with Northwood Core.

[FUGGER]

Sorry been screwing with the Dothan past few days.

The builds will continue this week.
First up,

820 Retail
P5WD2-P
Antec superlanboy
250GB x2 RAID 0
450W or 500W PSU
285x14 is my minimum target speed.

Target, 4Ghz on air for dual threads of Pi 32M and prime for 24 hours??

This server is to be a transaction server for holding temporary data. It will live with a light load and back up as file holding area as well. Estimated cost of $1000 wo/ monitor

[FUGGER]

Nazu, try backing off in voltage and even cutting back to stock voltage to see how far you get.

Lithan is correct about adding more votlage increasing your temps.

Confirm you can do 266FSB on stock votlage first. This should be done with everything at stock votlage. There is no need to raise anything at this point and that includes the 840EE can do this speed with stock voltage (with the 14x mutliple).

Im not sure what your ram is made from, does it run @ 3-2-2-4? Elpida stuff doesnt like to run 3-2-2-4

[Lithan]

I'd rather see two Primes running. Spi32 isn't a concern for me. 2xprime has become the standard for HT cpu stability testing, so it should cross over nicely into dual core testing.

[Lithan]

Sorry been screwing with the Dothan past few days.

The builds will continue this week.
First up,

820 Retail
P5WD2-P
Antec superlanboy
250GB x2 RAID 0
450W or 500W PSU
285x14 is my minimum target speed.

Target, 4Ghz on air for dual threads of Pi 32M and prime for 24 hours??

This server is to be a transaction server for holding temporary data. It will live with a light load and back up as file holding area as well. Estimated cost of $1000 wo/ monitor


It's gonna be running stock for that I assume, not 4ghz. ;)

Also, isn't lanboy ATX?

[FUGGER]

ATX case with 120mm in front and in back. I am not sure if it will live at stock speed once its gone.

[Lithan]

You sell to businesses that overclock? Sheesh man, things are crazy out west. I've actually had buddies tell me that even though I build their machines, they cant recommend me to build machines for their companies simply because I overclock my own machines.

Anyhow, yeah lanboys have pretty decent airflow for a stock design. I personally never run in a case that hasn't seen a dremel because there are no stock cases that have efficient airflow (they either have too many fans in poor places/sizes or no fans at all). Really nothing beats a 172mm filtered front intake with a duct directing it over key components and a simple vent exhaust in the back (plus PSU's exhaust naturally). A year or so back when I still had time to LAN, I almost bought a lanboy (the origional), but cost (~$100+ was prohibitive, when I could have gotten a $30 case and spent $20 on mods to make an even better case).

[Donnie27]

I owned the heatsink you have for two years. It's nowhere near the quality of a xp-90 and you can get an xp-90 for $25. Also the "triple-fan" coolers sold for slot 1/a processors were about the worst heatsinks ever. That's why they sold for $5 on ebay.

Also, if I recall, @ stock a 1.4 Palimino put out about 70-80W Theoretical max. A p4 6XX @ 4ghz puts out ~130W theoretical max @ stock vcore.Speaking of assumptions.

And that motherboard either has serious problems or else your monitoring software does. Cpu speed shouldn't fluctuate 150mhz while a system is running. It shouldn't even fluctuate more than 1-2 times the CPU's multiplier when rebooted.

It was three years ago when I checked, but I believe the 90mm they hooked up for me was their "high-flow" model and maxxed at 42cfm. It was exhausting and ducted about 4" with a 90* bend, unsealed. I marvelled at the efficiency of it's design.


Also, I'm making statements based on the results of dozens of people I know with these processors. You and others are making claims based on nothing other than what you wish these chips could do. Hell, there'd still be people in here saying they could do 4ghz stable @ stock cooling and vcore if you had your way.

Sorry dewd, there's folks at overclockers.com, here and many other places complaining because they only hit 4GHz and not 4.1 or 4.26 or etc.. Why do you feel it is like your God sworn duty to defend AMD everytime anyone posts on the Intel side of the forum? I'm sure if I post the same *stuff on the AMD side of the forum, saaya or would sure as scheisse ban me quicker than the message could be posted. ;)

Example. You were given links to folks' overclocking results, where yours to back up your claims? You continue to talk of $200 motherboards when I've posted to you before that there are i945s for less than $130, too lazy to go to Price Scan or Watch?

Donnie27

[dippyskoodlez]

Sorry dewd, there's folks at overclockers.com, here and many other places complaining because they only hit 4GHz and not 4.1 or 4.26 or etc.. Why do you feel it is like your God sworn duty to defend AMD everytime anyone posts on the Intel side of the forum? I'm sure if I post the same *stuff on the AMD side of the forum, saaya or would sure as scheisse ban me quicker than the message could be posted. ;)

Example. You were given links to folks' overclocking results, where yours to back up your claims? You continue to talk of $200 motherboards when I've posted to you before that there are i945s for less than $130, too lazy to go to Price Scan or Watch?

Donnie27


this should explain it all.... for any p4 owner....

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5852/power1nt.gif

Why anyone would build a new P4 at this point in time is beyond me. A dothan system is a much better choice, and probably has a better lifespan than a P4. :stick: Letalone socket 939's lifespan...

btw, welcome to xs donnie. :p:

He's posting the way he is- because right now a p4 doesn't make much sense, unless your insane. :fact: But then again, everything does then.

[Nasgul]

this should explain it all.... for any p4 owner....

Why anyone would build a new P4 at this point in time is beyond me. A dothan system is a much better choice, and probably has a better lifespan than a P4. Letalone socket 939's lifespan...
He's posting the way he is- because right now a p4 doesn't make much sense, unless your insane. But then again, everything does then.

Lifespan on 939's, that's why I'll never bother in getting one. I mean NEVER:
TOASTED CPU JUST WATCHING DVD (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68708)

Pentium 4s make more sense....reliable, stable and compatible, can handle everything that the "others" can.

[Lithan]

Sorry dewd, there's folks at overclockers.com, here and many other places complaining because they only hit 4GHz and not 4.1 or 4.26 or etc.. Why do you feel it is like your God sworn duty to defend AMD everytime anyone posts on the Intel side of the forum? I'm sure if I post the same *stuff on the AMD side of the forum, saaya or would sure as scheisse ban me quicker than the message could be posted. ;)

Example. You were given links to folks' overclocking results, where yours to back up your claims? You continue to talk of $200 motherboards when I've posted to you before that there are i945s for less than $130, too lazy to go to Price Scan or Watch?

Donnie27

Where are the SS? You say there's multiple people stable at 4ghz on air? Show us.

Edit:

Searched OCforums. In threads that have been posted in during the month of july (should include pretty much all 8XX results) in the Intel section, there is a 3.5, a 3.7 and a 3.8. Also I'd LOVE to see you show me a thread here where someone complained about only hitting 4ghz on air with a dual core. You know, making stuff up really doesn't do your arguement any good.

Yeah, and I can buy a $20 socket A board or a $35 socket 478 board. Want to take a guess why no one buys those boards? And where did I say $200 motherboards? I believe I said $100 more than 939 boards. You can buy a cheap 939 board new or a good one used for 50-60$

[Donnie27]

this should explain it all.... for any p4 owner....

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5852/power1nt.gif

Why anyone would build a new P4 at this point in time is beyond me. A dothan system is a much better choice, and probably has a better lifespan than a P4. :stick: Letalone socket 939's lifespan...

btw, welcome to xs donnie. :p:

He's posting the way he is- because right now a p4 doesn't make much sense, unless your insane. :fact: But then again, everything does then.

What do you mean by Welcome? Not AMD trolling the Intel side of the forum is beyond you as well uh? :nono: If you don't like Intel (anything Intel makes)and yes from ExtremeTech I'm 100% sure you don't, then why come thread crap on this side of the forum? I ask you again, show us your Intel systems that you've gain so much skillz from?

Please note the BIASed move dippy did by leaving out the AMD processors that also run hotter than the Dothan, sheesh! But then many AMD biased folks find reasons not to buy Dothans either. Even Lithan only hates the P4.

Just a reminder.
http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=pm915&page=5

Admitting anything negative about AMD is still harder than having a tooth pulled with no painkiller for you uh?

Meanwhile, I'll wait for the August Price cuts and build an AMD Gaming rig then.

Donnie27

[Lithan]

Do I hate the p4? Hmm. I've only owned about a dozen p4 rigs versus about two dozen A64 rigs. No, I still say no. I just don't delude myself. And since you do that, your brain can't rationalize it when the facts are presented to you so in order to protect itself, it decides that the people who correct your fantasies are lying out of hate of the platform or because they are fanboys.


Venice + nf3 Vrs Dothan + ct479 + 865 A/c draw converted to dc usage. Both at 2500/1.4v (10x250, 12x209). All other voltages/timings/etc @ boards defaults.

Idle = <10watts difference.
Load <25watts difference.


Your link is hardly accurate.

[Donnie27]

Where are the SS? You say there's multiple people stable at 4ghz on air? Show us.

Edit:

Searched OCforums. In threads that have been posted in during the month of july (should include pretty much all 8XX results) in the Intel section, there is a 3.5, a 3.7 and a 3.8. Also I'd LOVE to see you show me a thread here where someone complained about only hitting 4ghz on air with a dual core. You know, making stuff up really doesn't do your arguement any good.

Yeah, and I can buy a $20 socket A board or a $35 socket 478 board. Want to take a guess why no one buys those boards? And where did I say $200 motherboards? I believe I said $100 more than 939 boards. You can buy a cheap 939 board new or a good one used for 50-60$

Last things first. Sorry again, I disagree big time( surprised there uh?)! AMD can only dream of the sales Socket 478 STILL HAS! If it weren't for sales of AthlonXP, AMD would be in the red by about few 100 million, sheesh! As the Inquirer said, AMD announced they'd build 100K DC and Intel said 500K, that's peanuts for both companies. Even if AMD does repackage and call them Semprons :p: Meanwhile Intel is laughing all the way to the bank. Just because message boards are visited by More folks who choose AMD, doesn't mean the rest of the market lives in the same alternate reality.

All I said is that you were given links. Bah, I could care less what 8xx does, I'm not buying one. The speeds you quoted, is plenty fast as well. Dewd, 3.8 or 3.7? Oh boowhooo, that's not 4GHz, would most folks even care?

Where I said about complaining, about 4GHz, I meant the regular 6xx/5xx, not the 8xx, mistake on my part. I've been known to do that, sheesh!

Donnie27

[zabomb4163]

how the heck did this turn into AMD vs Intel. jeez. leave p4s, dothans. and amd64s out of it.

[dippyskoodlez]

If you don't like Intel (anything Intel makes)and yes from ExtremeTech I'm 100% sure you don't, then why come thread crap on this side of the forum? I ask you again, show us your Intel systems that you've gain so much skillz from?


How exactly is that a thread crap? All I see if you bashing him for his suggestions to go A64 when its clearly a better option than a P4. You also lack evidence supporting any of your arguments whatsoever. Like usual.

:rolleyes:

Please note the BIASed move dippy did by leaving out the AMD processors that also run hotter than the Dothan, sheesh! But then many AMD biased folks find reasons not to buy Dothans either. Even Lithan only hates the P4.

Please note this argument is about getting a P4 to 4ghz, not a P-M. btw, I didn't make that graph. It was from a review. You're brilliant dude. just BRILLIANT! :slap:

I would buy a dothan at a heartbeat if it was cheaper. :rolleyes: Infact, I have 12 G3 macs, and 4 P3's sitting in my room as I type this. :p: Along with 2 pentium's in my garage. 2 dead P4's. Replaced from dells.



Just a reminder.
http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=pm915&page=5

Admitting anything negative about AMD is still harder than having a tooth pulled with no painkiller for you uh?

Wow. you just proved your whole first post wrong. Good job sherlock. :fact:

Verdict is: P4's use too much power, run too hot, and lack socket lifespan. Dothan or A64 is a much more viable option. :fact:

Last things first. Sorry again, I disagree big time( surprised there uh?)! AMD can only dream of the sales Socket 478 STILL HAS! If it weren't for sales of AthlonXP, AMD would be in the red by about few 100 million, sheesh! As the Inquirer said, AMD announced they'd build 100K DC and Intel said 500K, that's peanuts for both companies. Even if AMD does repackage and call them Semprons :p: Meanwhile Intel is laughing all the way to the bank. Just because message boards are visited by More folks who choose AMD, doesn't mean the rest of the market lives in the same alternate reality.


Donnie donnie donnie... noone gives a crap about market share. Its about a system, and performance.

A p4 using 100w difference compared to 30w on the dothan when the dothan will smoke it in benchmarks.


Pentium 4s make more sense....reliable, stable and compatible, can handle everything that the "others" can.

one sample? :slapass: Must I find some dead p4 examples? SNDS? remember that? reliable my :banana: . Ive build many pc's for people using AMD's. guess what they upgraded from? dell p4's. My p4 at school couldnt even run visual studio for 10 minutes without crashing. Hooray for prescotts! lost 3 weeks of work! :mad:

I have yet to be called back by a customer having PC problems. Going on 3 years now. :woot:

[Lithan]

Last things first. Sorry again, I disagree big time( surprised there uh?)! AMD can only dream of the sales Socket 478 STILL HAS! If it weren't for sales of AthlonXP, AMD would be in the red by about few 100 million, sheesh! As the Inquirer said, AMD announced they'd build 100K DC and Intel said 500K, that's peanuts for both companies. Even if AMD does repackage and call them Semprons :p: Meanwhile Intel is laughing all the way to the bank. Just because message boards are visited by More folks who choose AMD, doesn't mean the rest of the market lives in the same alternate reality.

What in god's name are you talking about? I said no overclocker is buying the $20 xp boards or the $35 478 boards because they suck. In other words you can buy the cheapest board available, but it will suck. What board is everyone buying for these chips? The P5WD2 according to most of the 8XX owners I've seen.

All I said is that you were given links. Bah, I could care less what 8xx does, I'm not buying one. The speeds you quoted, is plenty fast as well. Dewd, 3.8 or 3.7? Oh boowhooo, that's not 4GHz, would most folks even care?

Folks who asked specifically if they could get 4ghz "100% stable" on air and were practically told it was guaranteed might care. If you don't care about such a low difference in mhz, go buy the venices I'm selling. One of them can do 2975mhz prime stable @ 1.65vcore on air. (Or at least close enough I'm sure you won't care). Correct me if I'm reading this wrong but, "I was wrong, but that's not important, what's important is that now that I know I was wrong, the arguement is moot!"

Where I said about complaining, about 4GHz, I meant the regular 6xx/5xx, not the 8xx, mistake on my part. I've been known to do that, sheesh!

Well of course there are 6XX hitting 4ghz on air. Hell I've seen good ones hitting in the area of 4.5ghz. That's one of the reasons the 8XX are so disappointing.

[dippyskoodlez]

What in god's name are you talking about? I said no overclocker is buying the $20 xp boards or the $35 478 boards because they suck. In other words you can buy the cheapest board available, but it will suck. What board is everyone buying for these chips? The P5WD2 according to most of the 8XX owners I've seen.


lol I'd love to see a $100 p4 mobo handle a 4ghz p4 24/7. Ain't gonna happen. period. :rolleyes:

[Lithan]

lol I'd love to see a $100 p4 mobo handle a 4ghz p4 24/7. Ain't gonna happen. period. :rolleyes:


I can't speak for modern chips. But I had a $60 p4p800 rev 2 handling a Northwood @ just shy of 4ghz 24/7. Of course a 4ghz northwood is a far cry from a 4ghz smithfield (What, about 35% of the power draw or thereabouts?)

[sabrewolf732]

wow thank you people like fugger and donnie, and nasgul, for helping me prove a point. and lithan, thank you for FINALLY being civil. the last two posts you made were actually good. :clap:

nasgul didn't prove much of anything, he completely avoided what was being argued. He started talking about amd whereas everyone was talking about whether a PD can hit 4GHz on air. If you intel people notice, no one is mentioning AMD, people are only stating that hitting 4GHz on air with a pentium D is one hell of a task, and doing so 100% stable is damn near impossible. And before you start yelling at me about how, "OMFG LIEK YOU AMD NOOB, INTEL > J00!".I plan on getting a dothan system soon. Donnie, lithan asked for a ss of 4GHz stable, not a, 3.7 is close enough to 4GHz statement.Sheesh, for all you guys claiming everyone to be amd biased, you guys sure do have alot of proof to back up your statements.

[dippyskoodlez]

I can't speak for modern chips. But I had a $60 p4p800 rev 2 handling a Northwood @ just shy of 4ghz 24/7. Of course a 4ghz northwood is a far cry from a 4ghz smithfield (What, about 35% of the power draw or thereabouts?)

I'm talking about the lack of mosfet capabilitys, especially on CHEAP boards. northwoods werent too bad...

[sabrewolf732]

What do you mean by Welcome? Not AMD trolling the Intel side of the forum is beyond you as well uh? :nono: If you don't like Intel (anything Intel makes)and yes from ExtremeTech I'm 100% sure you don't, then why come thread crap on this side of the forum? I ask you again, show us your Intel systems that you've gain so much skillz from?

Please note the BIASed move dippy did by leaving out the AMD processors that also run hotter than the Dothan, sheesh! But then many AMD biased folks find reasons not to buy Dothans either. Even Lithan only hates the P4.

Just a reminder.
http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=pm915&page=5

Admitting anything negative about AMD is still harder than having a tooth pulled with no painkiller for you uh?

Meanwhile, I'll wait for the August Price cuts and build an AMD Gaming rig then.

Donnie27


Donnie, perhaps if you could read and perhaps if you had the reading comprehension of a third grader you could see that Dippy recommended a dothan. AN INTEL CHIP.

[sabrewolf732]

Lifespan on 939's, that's why I'll never bother in getting one. I mean NEVER:
TOASTED CPU JUST WATCHING DVD (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68708)

Pentium 4s make more sense....reliable, stable and compatible, can handle everything that the "others" can.

ok genius:
http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/9831/ha0ru.jpg

I just took that ss right now. I would expect to see more amd failure threads.......... Also, did you ever have the thought that possibly, JUST POSSIBLY, the mb or psu is at fault? I mean, I over this past year I must have built maybe 10 amd systems and they all run flawlessly.

[dippyskoodlez]

ok genius:
http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/9831/ha0ru.jpg

I just took that ss right now. I would expect to see more amd failure threads.......... Also, did you ever have the thought that possibly, JUST POSSIBLY, the mb or psu is at fault? I mean, I over this past year I must have built maybe 10 amd systems and they all run flawlessly.

I love how one dies and some people just assume they all go kaput. :p:

[sabrewolf732]

I love how one dies and some people just assume they all go kaput. :p:

yeah, their ideas are a bit idiotic sometimes :stick:

[Nasgul]

ok genius:
http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/9831/ha0ru.jpg

I just took that ss right now. I would expect to see more amd failure threads.......... Also, did you ever have the thought that possibly, JUST POSSIBLY, the mb or psu is at fault? I mean, I over this past year I must have built maybe 10 amd systems and they all run flawlessly.

Well, the processors are very cheap, if one fries, anybody can spend another $140 and buy a new one, how hard is that? Here look:C:L:I:C:K (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26650&page=1&pp=25&highlight=amd+death), I'm sure those people spent another $140.

amd systems run flawlessly? sorry that's one bitter pill I'm not going to swallow, I've been to other forums and the same old same old....."my new system won't boot", bla bla bla bla....problems after problems......
Most people with Intel system having issues is because they forget to RTFM, like this guy here: C:L:I:C:K (http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=400262) or something else goes wrong: C:L:I:C:K (http://www.maximumpc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19907) , but this crap? never:C:L:I:C:K (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68708).
That SS shows me 60+ other people trying to figure out what's wrong with their amd based system. Nothing else.

I love how one dies and some people just assume they all go kaput.
Just one?....I don't think so (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26650&highlight=amd+death) :fact: :rofl:

Intel Rules (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8702135/) :toast:

[dippyskoodlez]

amd systems run flawlessly? sorry that's one bitter pill I'm not going to swallow, I've been to other forums and the same old same old....."my new system won't boot", bla bla bla bla....problems after problems......
Most people with Intel system having issues is because they forget to RTFM, like this guy here: C:L:I:C:K (http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=400262) or something else goes wrong: C:L:I:C:K (http://www.maximumpc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19907) , but this crap? never:C:L:I:C:K (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68708).
That SS shows me 60+ other people trying to figure out what's wrong with their amd based system. Nothing else.


Just one?....I don't think so (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26650&highlight=amd+death) :fact: :rofl:

Most problems these days are people too lazy to read the manual, or learn wtf they are doing first, regardless of the platform.

I said not a single problem from the ones I built- I am a formally, and informally trained technician, so i built it
right the first time.

And the deaths? Also note most of the old A64 deaths were from VDD mods. Notice how many have disappeared once people stopped vmodding the chipset? :rolleyes:


then i relized the chaintech ..i had modded the chipset...the nf3 chipset was modded and set to 2.2v...this has to have a direct relation to the chips dieing...
but i am not going to try my idea and remove the mod and then try another chip...not right now at least.
i am whating on another 3400 to play on and thats it for a while...

Old thread btw. Maybe you should look up the reasoning behind these things before you shout AMD is crap without any actual evidence? :fact:

Atleast that isnt as bad as this:

Clickie (http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=115166&highlight=SNDS)

Well, the processors are very cheap, if one fries, anybody can spend another $140 and buy a new one, how hard is that? Here look:C:L:I:C:K (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26650&page=1&pp=25&highlight=amd+death), I'm sure those people spent another $140.
Wow. you just proved yourself wrong once again. Even if it did die once, it can be replaced and still end up faster, and cheaper than a P4.

Congratulations for being the best player on my team :clap:

Please, for your sake, if you insist on posting a response, atleast use some half useful evidence instead of stuff just proving yourself wrong? :rolleyes:

Btw, hows THIS (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=974960&posted=1#post974960) for reliable? :rolleyes: Go back to your corner and come out when you ahve an argument, please.

[sabrewolf732]

Well, the processors are very cheap, if one fries, anybody can spend another $140 and buy a new one, how hard is that? Here look:C:L:I:C:K (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26650&page=1&pp=25&highlight=amd+death), I'm sure those people spent another $140.

amd systems run flawlessly? sorry that's one bitter pill I'm not going to swallow, I've been to other forums and the same old same old....."my new system won't boot", bla bla bla bla....problems after problems......
Most people with Intel system having issues is because they forget to RTFM,


Well, by doing simple math, the amd forum has 7.6x more viewers. When I click on the amd forum, I don't see 7.6x more problematic posts. Also you are completely avoiding what I said, what does price have to do with what I said? Number 1, you can't make a solid argument, #2 you can't back up anything you say, #3 you keep on changing the subject. Tell me how I have successfully built 10+ amd systems in the past year, but issues with amd are so rampant. Is it that I am somehow, incredibly lucky?

I have lost 6 as of right now....some were high voltage,some stock,some extreeme cold,some not....but all were on my chaintech motherboard(except one that died from a known problem..power suppy blowing up)...and all die from the onchip mem controller dieing...

the chaintech i was trying to figure out why it is killing them.the cpu and mem mod was off and stock voltage the last 2 that died.

powersuppy on the last couple was running 3.33v 5.25v 12.24v so i know it wasnt that.and if the chips are going out because of a high 3.3 line then someone needs to fix something..because if i am not wrong...the spec motherboard and powersupply makers go by is 3.3v 5.0v 12.0v and thay all are allowed a 10% margin of differance...and that would =3.63v on the high side.

then i relized the chaintech ..i had modded the chipset...the nf3 chipset was modded and set to 2.2v...this has to have a direct relation to the chips dieing..."

Perhaps if you could read the threads you are linking to, as they are in fact giving me data to prove that your argument is idiotic. Please more links.


OOPS POSTED BASICALLY SAME THING AS DIPPY. :stick: :p:

[Wiggy McShades]

Well, by doing simple math, the amd forum has 7.6x more viewers. When I click on the amd forum, I don't see 7.6x more problematic posts. Also you are completely avoiding what I said, what does price have to do with what I said? Number 1, you can't make a solid argument, #2 you can't back up anything you say, #3 you keep on changing the subject. Tell me how I have successfully built 10+ amd systems in the past year, but issues with amd are so rampant. Is it that I am somehow, incredibly lucky?




the amount of viewers obviously shows how good the company's products are. now reguarding your 10 systems, what do you do with them ? what im trying to get at did you just build 10 systems that you sold to people for say everyday use? because that isnt saying much, running a system at stock will 99% of the time not have problems unless the user does something wrong. or where they heavily overclocked systems for your personal use? now that i would say is impressive.

[sabrewolf732]

the amount of viewers obviously shows how good the company's products are. now reguarding your 10 systems, what do you do with them ? what im trying to get at did you just build 10 systems that you sold to people for say everyday use? because that isnt saying much, running a system at stock will 99% of the time not have problems unless the user does something wrong. or where they heavily overclocked systems for your personal use? now that i would say is impressive.

3 of them heavily overclocked, and 7 for freinds as gaming pc's. Also, overclocking does not indicate quality, as the products were not made with the intention of overclocking. My argument is basically that amd's cpu's are of good quality when matched with a good psu and mobo, I am not saying that no amd cpu in existance have ever failed, just that, nagul's argument saying they are of low caliber is idiotic.

[dippyskoodlez]

the amount of viewers obviously shows how good the company's products are. now reguarding your 10 systems, what do you do with them ? what im trying to get at did you just build 10 systems that you sold to people for say everyday use? because that isnt saying much, running a system at stock will 99% of the time not have problems unless the user does something wrong. or where they heavily overclocked systems for your personal use? now that i would say is impressive.

You must not have seen the THG comparison of the p4 Vs amd... how many of their mobos died again, runnung.... stock ? :slap:

Now if it overclocks and dies, you have nowhere to complain or call a product crappy. 1.) your running higher voltages/settings than its qualified for. :slap:

[Wiggy McShades]

3 of them heavily overclocked, and 7 for freinds as gaming pc's. Also, overclocking does not indicate quality, as the products were not made with the intention of overclocking. My argument is basically that amd's cpu's are of good quality when matched with a good psu and mobo, I am not saying that no amd cpu in existance have ever failed, just that, nagul's argument saying they are of low caliber is idiotic.

no you misunderstood me i was just seeing if you had pc's running stock and bragging about them having no problems because that wouldnt be much of a quality indicator. both amd and intel systems run stock perfectly fine. where if u have a heavily overclocked system running without having any problems that really to me shows quality of a product.

You must not have seen the THG comparison of the p4 Vs amd... how many of their mobos died again, runnung.... stock ? :slap:

Now if it overclocks and dies, you have nowhere to complain or call a product crappy. 1.) your running higher voltages/settings than its qualified for. :slap:

that test was a joke to say the least, yes i saw it.

[sabrewolf732]

no you misunderstood me i was just seeing if you had pc's running stock and bragging about them having no problems because that wouldnt be much of a quality indicator. both amd and intel systems run stock perfectly fine. where if u have a heavily overclocked system running without having any problems that really to me shows quality of a product.



that test was a joke to say the least, yes i saw it.

oh ok, I understand where you are coming from now :) Both amd and intel make stable cpu's, it is the components you match them with that will dictate the longetivity of the cpu. That is my opinion, however nasgul seems to think that amd = poo, which couldn't be more incorrect.

[Lithan]

Way off topic. Sabre and Dippy, just mute Nasgul. He'd call his ass a bellybutton if he thought someone would believe him.

[sabrewolf732]

Way off topic. Sabre and Dippy, just mute Nasgul. He'd call his ass a bellybutton if he thought someone would believe him.
:lol: :ROTF: wow, that was funny :D

[Donnie27]

Donnie, perhaps if you could read and perhaps if you had the reading comprehension of a third grader you could see that Dippy recommended a dothan. AN INTEL CHIP.

I meationed other posts and messages to me that had nothing to do with this forum. If you could read better or were not so in love with AMD that it seemed as though I said something about your MOM, you'd have seen that, sheesh!

The chart he linked to didn't list a friggen AthlonXP or A64, the one I gave did. Or in your mad blind AMD fanboy rage did you even click on the link? . The best reading skillz in the world still can't open AMD Followers eyes can it or do you comprehend that? If you could read, try real hard and look at what you copied and pasted, oh brother.

Please note the BIASed move dippy did by leaving out the AMD processors that also run hotter than the Dothan, sheesh! But then many AMD biased folks find reasons not to buy Dothans either. Even Lithan only hates the P4.

Now if anyone has a reading problem it is most certainly YOU :slap: Because I didn't say what Dippy would pick, I did say what he linked to. Argue about either links if you must. Now if you're calling Dippy and "AMD bi..........", you did, not I. Please post to him about it.

Oh wait, I'll be banned if I upset AMD Fanboys who can't stand the slightest negative thing said about AMD on the Intel side of the forum and attack folks for saying them. Dewds, get a friggen Life. Because I pointed that Dippy left off charts that list BOTH (fairer) that pisses off AMD Fans they come back drop lines about how folks can't read? Wow! I got banned for 3 days for saying less.

Donnie27

[Donnie27]

How exactly is that a thread crap? All I see if you bashing him for his suggestions to go A64 when its clearly a better option than a P4. You also lack evidence supporting any of your arguments whatsoever. Like usual.

See note#7

Answers are in your replys! I've given hundreds of links here on this forum LOL!

"Please note this argument is about getting a P4 to 4ghz, not a P-M. btw, I didn't make that graph. It was from a review. You're brilliant dude. just BRILLIANT! :slap:"

And now you're just being silly because got you called on something you do all the time, namely Cheerlead for AMD. No, you didn't make the graph, you just picked one that left off AMD. It hurts you to post anything even slightly or remotely negative towards AMD uh?

I would buy a dothan at a heartbeat if it was cheaper. :rolleyes: Infact, I have 12 G3 macs, and 4 P3's sitting in my room as I type this. :p: Along with 2 pentium's in my garage. 2 dead P4's. Replaced from dells.

Sure you would, even as some Dothans aren't priced much differently than the 3500+ you bought, right? You're Brilliant and very wise and you can count great too uh?

Wow. you just proved your whole first post wrong. Good job sherlock. :fact:

No, you have a reading problem, I said you found one that left off AMD. As you'll do later in the thread. Unlike you I don't mind talking about Hotscotts and that's why I didn't buy one.

Verdict is: P4's use too much power, run too hot, and lack socket lifespan. Dothan or A64 is a much more viable option. :fact:

So what happened to only talking about the Pentium D? Oh that's right, you follow that AMD fan boy handbook. Never mention or show a link to anything remotely negative or that doesn't show AMD in the best light. But always throw a positive comment when posible.

Donnie donnie donnie... noone gives a crap about market share. Its about a system, and performance.

OK Sherlock :slap: Dippy, Dippy Dippy :slapass: Too bad the company you love with all of your wittle heart doesn't agree with you. :stick:

A p4 using 100w difference compared to 30w on the dothan when the dothan will smoke it in benchmarks.

See? Unlike the graph you didn't make, this one you did! Yet, we end up with the same AMD Fan result. AMD omitted so the slightest chance of something negative being written isn't brought up. Are trying to be an AMD PR person?

Note #7
one sample? :slapass: Must I find some dead p4 examples? SNDS? remember that? reliable my :banana: . Ive build many pc's for people using AMD's. guess what they upgraded from? dell p4's. My p4 at school couldnt even run visual studio for 10 minutes without crashing. Hooray for prescotts! lost 3 weeks of work! :mad:

I have yet to be called back by a customer having PC problems. Going on 3 years n