Does WCing provide cooler ambient temps?

[Trice]

I'm having a discussion with a friend.


One of us says that if you have air cooling you will have the same ambient air as watercooling.

I say since water is so efficient that it will make my room cooler, BUT he says it will get hotter because it is so efficient.

He said if I wanted a cooler room, get a sorrier heatsink.

I can see his point about having a heatsink that is so efficient it puts the heat in the air like its supposed to, but won't a water cooling system that is around 10 degrees cooler make my case cooler, thus making the ambient air around it cooler?

I'm lost.

[K.I.T.T.]

AFAIK, using a HSF provides area cooling as the air will be dispersed over a large area, hence cooling other components such as the PWMs, etc.
However, watercooling (and phase change/TECs) only offer point cooling - They only cool the cpu/gpu and not the air around, hence causing higher ambient temperatures than those obtained with a HSF.................I think.

Correct me if im wrong

[Special_K]

watercooling probably would raise the temp faster as it is a more efficient means of heat exchange but conservation of energy says the room's temp will raise the same amount eventually

[Trice]

AFAIK, using a HSF provides area cooling as the air will be dispersed over a large area, hence cooling other components such as the PWMs, etc.
However, watercooling (and phase change/TECs) only offer point cooling - They only cool the cpu/gpu and not the air around, hence causing higher ambient temperatures than those obtained with a HSF.................I think.

Correct me if im wrong

Even if you are using fans to circulate air inside the case?

[K.I.T.T.]

Possibly.......hard to say really, but with the HSF, you are helping the circulation of air inside the case (i think) so without it, there would be less circulation.....Im probably wrong though LOL :am:

Anyway, as long as youve got case fans and good airflow, i wouldnt expect a siginficant difference in ambient temps it at all - maybe 1-2 degrees. If there was a change, its also debatable whether it would be a rise or faall in temps.

Anyway, thats my $00.2 :D........better wait till some of the regulars post their opinions :)

[MaxxxRacer]

The ambient temp will be raised by watercooling slightly due to the higher power draw from the pump. other than that the heat disipation of the system is the same.

in air cooling the cpu temp will be higher but the cpu is still outputting the same amount of heat. the heat just gets transfered through the mobo and other components more so than with watercooling. this is the case because watercooling is more effecient and will "suck" the heat out of the cpu faster. so the heat will all go into the waterblock rather than heat up components around it. now all of the heat that would be in the surrounding components in air cooling is now transfered to the radiator in watercooling. then all of this heat is expelled through the rad.

so in essence ur just moving the heat around..

and if u have a low power pump (say a DDC or 50Z) ur ambient temps will be nearly the same as the heat capacity for an entire room full of air is quite high.

[Trice]

Oopsie then, I told the GF that the WCing would cool the apt a little more LOOOOOOOOOOL

Oh well at least it will be quieter.

[MaxxxRacer]

ROFL... dont tell her any different. she might get the pitch fork out ...

[timpanogos]

Heck you've seen that huge bong cooler right?? that thing cools the room (and like 7 machines)

[MaxxxRacer]

bong cooler wont cool the room... it just puts alot of humidity into the room and warmed water..

[rodman]

My case temps dropped about 5c when I went to water cooling.

[racinjimy]

if your room is a tent you may notice a difference in ambient temperature with a computer on...................

a single PC won't warm a room up so that you would notice

a bunch of servers in a closet, different story

the concept of water cooling decreasing ambient temperature in a room is kind of silly, if your computer uses electricity it will produce heat and that heat can't COOL a room :fact:

[bfx]

AFAIK a HSF tends to turn the inside of your computer into a convection oven.

The water blocks and hoses conducts the heat from those parts to a different location and dissipates from there. That allows your regular case fans to keep the rest of the mb components cooler.

Although I have seen systems with the rad in bottom of the case with it's fans drawing air into the case from the bottom 'because it's cooler air'. That seems as if that's the wrong way to go as you're just dumping the hot air back into the case.

Anway - any given system needs to tame a given number of BTU or calories or however you want to measure the heat load.

bfx

[timpanogos]

Maxxx, here in utah, we have very low humitity .. swamp coolers are common ..

now check this out ... yes, I think it would cool my room!!!

too funny!!

http://www.ku74.net/uberbong/

sissy w/c system .... haaaa

[MaxxxRacer]

my god.. that thing is sweet but just look at the moisture it puts into the air.. just scary... u would need to put a plastic bag over ur comp...

[timpanogos]

What, you don't use a 6" shower head in your system??? lol

[MaxxxRacer]

only when going to LAN's...

now thinking about it more, the bong might provide cooler room temps.. ill put some more thought into it and ask some ppl with more knowledge about swamp cooling.

[euclid]

AFAIK a HSF tends to turn the inside of your computer into a convection oven.

The water blocks and hoses conducts the heat from those parts to a different location and dissipates from there. That allows your regular case fans to keep the rest of the mb components cooler.

Although I have seen systems with the rad in bottom of the case with it's fans drawing air into the case from the bottom 'because it's cooler air'. That seems as if that's the wrong way to go as you're just dumping the hot air back into the case.

Anway - any given system needs to tame a given number of BTU or calories or however you want to measure the heat load.

bfx

i agree with this, and i think watercooling will not heat the room as much as aircooling.

if youre using hot case air to cool a hot cpu, it is less effecient.

with watercooling the heat conductor(water) is always at or close to ambient as long as ambient air is use to cool an effiecient radiator... case temps do not play a part in water cooling loop unless the radiator, or all the tubing, is located inside the case.
therefore, the most a watercooling system could raise the ambient temp in the room would be to the temp of the water as it enters the radiator, which is only a couple degrees at most. theoretically, with aircooling the limit ids the actual cpu temp b/c the heatsink will directly dump as much cpu heat into the air as possible.
plus, all the components within the case will be running hotter if the case temp is hotter, so heat is a compounding problem with aircooling. at least with water loop the cpu is not heating up the rest of the case... and if you cool the gpu too then there should be really big case temp difference.
my .02

[Trice]

i agree with this, and i think watercooling will not heat the room as much as aircooling.

if youre using hot case air to cool a hot cpu, it is less effecient.

with watercooling the heat conductor(water) is always at or close to ambient as long as ambient air is use to cool an effiecient radiator... case temps do not play a part in water cooling loop unless the radiator, or all the tubing, is located inside the case.
therefore, the most a watercooling system could raise the ambient temp in the room would be to the temp of the water as it enters the radiator, which is only a couple degrees at most. theoretically, with aircooling the limit ids the actual cpu temp b/c the heatsink will directly dump as much cpu heat into the air as possible.
plus, all the components within the case will be running hotter if the case temp is hotter, so heat is a compounding problem with aircooling. at least with water loop the cpu is not heating up the rest of the case... and if you cool the gpu too then there should be really big case temp difference.
my .02

Thats how I felt about it. I figured well WCing is more eifficient right? Reason why people use it, and yes I know some of the energy is released into the air, but MOST of it is in the water, which is then cooled by the outside air and the radiator. Now with my air setup it can only cool as well as the ambient, but since it is less efficient, it just gets hotter and hotter (hard to cool well when you get hot air to cool with right?). I guess my thinking is too simplistic, but if Im getting a 10 deg drop in CPU temps, that should provide cooler ambient temps as well since the computer is not putting out the heat into the air as it did with a normal HSF.

[MaxxxRacer]

u guys dont get it..

the comp sucks up X watts from the wall... the comp will disipate X watts as heat NO MATTER HOW YOU COOL IT.

its very simple. you can use the law of conservation of energy for this too..

[freecableguy]

heat in = heat out

Its just all about thermal resistance and the delta T developed. My advice to anyone that has any questions is to pick up a book on introduction to thermodynamic and start reading.

[MaxxxRacer]

freecableguy, that is just asking for trouble... if u remember pythag's sig u will know why i say this.

Title of a book on thermodynamics..
Thermodynamics: Because you thought Science couldnt get any more complicated

[freecableguy]

MaxxxRacer, you are probably right. I have been studying thermodynamics, fluid flow, metal characteristics and heat transfer for about 6 years now and I still have many questions sometimes...

BTW, the paste on my blocks must be settling well. I am now at 4C above ambient for my CPU/GPU temperatures. I am guessing water temperature is only 1-2C above ambient (I haven't measure it yet).

[MaxxxRacer]

ya... i cant wait to get into it with my schooling.. should be fun. I think i will specialize in this, within my major as its what i love.

[bfx]

Anway - any given system needs to tame a given number of BTU or calories or however you want to measure the heat load.

MaxxRacer said it better -

I just happen to think water cooling reduces the convection oven effect on other components without having to worry about condensation.

bfx

[STEvil]

well, technically it depends on what type of water cooling is used.

With a bong or other evaporative styles you add moisture to the air, which can increase temperature OR cause cooling depending on relative humidity and other factors.. same idea as why we sweat (to cool off via evaporation).

Theres no real difference though.

[Special_K]

STEvil is right, a bong cooler would start to lower the temperature in the room because of it's latent-heat 'phase-change', right?

[freecableguy]

Special_K - no, the heat MUST go into the room...the difference is only the transfer process.

[Special_K]

nono - the energy would go into the change between states - thats what phase change cooling is all about isn't it?

[KILLorBE]

nono - the energy would go into the change between states - thats what phase change cooling is all about isn't it?
Nope, Phase Change is just a (very) efficient way to move heat from one place to another....Fridges use the same principle, inside (where the evaporator is) it's cold, at the back (where the condenser is) it's hot.

The first law of thermodynamics states that the total inflow of energy into a system must equal the total outflow of energy from the system, plus the change in the energy contained within the system. In other words, energy can be converted from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed.
Source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy)

This (http://eddiem.com/fact4/coolit/coolit.htm) may be an interesting read for novices to understand Phase Change.

Personally I think that a WC setup will increase ambient temps, the reason is simple, first of all the pump will most likely put out more heat than a big fan (Unless you went nuts with the fans), second of all, due to lower temps you can most likely OC a bit more, thus increasing the power usage and output.
And last but not least, very few people use passive WC setups, so the fans they use to cool their rad will add heat too.

[Special_K]

omg - somebody please tell K that is wrong

there is no 'heat moving' between evap and condensor in phase change is there?

phase change relies on using the energy to break the bonds of atoms when they change from a liquid state to a gaseous state (latent heat)

the evaporator gets cold because the HEAT energy is used up by this phase change (liquid to gas)

the condensor gets hot because the compressor pressurises the gas back to liquid form (high pressure = heat)

or has K TOTALLY misunderstood what happens here?

[KILLorBE]

omg - somebody please tell K that is wrong

there is no 'heat moving' between evap and condensor in phase change is there?

phase change relies on using the energy to break the bonds of atoms when they change from a liquid state to a gaseous state (latent heat)

the evaporator gets cold because the HEAT energy is used up by this phase change (liquid to gas)

the condensor gets hot because the compressor pressurises the gas back to liquid form (high pressure = heat)

or has K TOTALLY misunderstood what happens here?
That's almost right, but the energy isn't used up (That's impossible, see the first law of thermodynamics) but the gas (vapor) that is formed by heating the fluid transfers the heat to the condensor.

[STEvil]

Personally I think that a WC setup will increase ambient temps, the reason is simple, first of all the pump will most likely put out more heat than a big fan (Unless you went nuts with the fans), second of all, due to lower temps you can most likely OC a bit more, thus increasing the power usage and output.
And last but not least, very few people use passive WC setups, so the fans they use to cool their rad will add heat too.

That'd be correct, but then we would be comparring apples to oranges. To keep this relatively simple we must assume both systems have the same heat dump.

Efficiency does not change the amount of heat/energy put into the room, only makes it possible to move more.


A bong cooler may bring the ambient temperature of the room down slightly, but you still have the same amount of energy locked into the system. Some of it just stays in the water which evaporates into the room then is absorbed into whatever surface it comes into contact with.

[saratoga]

Special_K - no, the heat MUST go into the room...the difference is only the transfer process.

Change in state = consumption of heat. The energy is still conserved, but not all as kinetic energy. So yes, a bong really will cool the room compared to air cooling. This is why swamp coolers work BTW.

nono - the energy would go into the change between states - thats what phase change cooling is all about isn't it?

Correct.

there is no 'heat moving' between evap and condensor in phase change is there?

phase change relies on using the energy to break the bonds of atoms when they change from a liquid state to a gaseous state (latent heat)

the evaporator gets cold because the HEAT energy is used up by this phase change (liquid to gas)

the condensor gets hot because the compressor pressurises the gas back to liquid form (high pressure = heat)

or has K TOTALLY misunderstood what happens here?

Heat does move from the evap to the condensor. Otherwise you're right (the heat you get at the condensor is the heat that went into the evap).

Thats how I felt about it. I figured well WCing is more eifficient right? Reason why people use it, and yes I know some of the energy is released into the air, but MOST of it is in the water, which is then cooled by the outside air and the radiator. Now with my air setup it can only cool as well as the ambient, but since it is less efficient, it just gets hotter and hotter (hard to cool well when you get hot air to cool with right?). I guess my thinking is too simplistic, but if Im getting a 10 deg drop in CPU temps, that should provide cooler ambient temps as well since the computer is not putting out the heat into the air as it did with a normal HSF.

Conservation of energy . . . if you weren't giving out as much energy as you're taking in, you're very quickly going to melt and/or burst into flames.

[Special_K]

hmmm - that still doesn't make exact sense to K because 'HOT' moves to 'COLD', so how does the heat energy from a cold evap move to the hot condensor?

anywhoo - this is a tad off topic and K need to do more research about the subject instead of spamming in forums =p

/hijack

[timpanogos]

wow, you guys make this all too hard ... that uber bong is ... well just plain "COOL" having it in ones room not only makes that room cool, but the person that owns that bong ... cool man!

Now if only Chec-n-Chong could help us fit that baby with a bowl ...

Love that thing ...

too funny

[saratoga]

hmmm - that still doesn't make exact sense to K because 'HOT' moves to 'COLD', so how does the heat energy from a cold evap move to the hot condensor?


I'd say you're more or less on topic given the thread. Anyway heat moves from the cold evap to the warmer condenser through the application of Work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_work) to gas in a Cycle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_process) according to Second Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics). This is called a Heat Pump (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump).

[euclid]

u guys dont get it..

the comp sucks up X watts from the wall... the comp will disipate X watts as heat NO MATTER HOW YOU COOL IT.

its very simple. you can use the law of conservation of energy for this too..


yes the heat is disipated into the water, there is nothing to say that at that point it has to disipate completely into the air. the multiple liters of water within the cooling loop are acting as a giant heat sink, the water retains some of that heat or else the loop would be AT ambient temp.

with air cooling the only heat sink is directly touching the cpu and its probibly >500% smaller than the theoretical heatsink provided by the water. much more of the heat disapated into the air from that point b/c the metalic sink cant hold alot of heat within itself.

[MaxxxRacer]

ok so u have a radiator with warm water. so that means its holding some wattage in the water. so essentially the room doesnt heat up as fast in the first 2 minutes the computer is on.. after that the ambient temp goes up just as fast...

[freecableguy]

Remember temperature does not equal energy....materials have different thermal coefficients of energy...meaning a different amount of energy is need to affect a temperature change. "Cooling" is all about moving energy from the source to the ambient with the smallest delta T (increase in temperature) from the source to the sink. Like I said, go read some basic thermodynamics and then come back for a discussion....

[euclid]

ok so u have a radiator with warm water. so that means its holding some wattage in the water. so essentially the room doesnt heat up as fast in the first 2 minutes the computer is on.. after that the ambient temp goes up just as fast...


no, only if the radiator is 100% efficient in the sense that ALL the heat stored within the water is released when passed through the radiator. then the water will literally be leaving the radiator at ambient temp and 100% of the cpu heat will have been transfered into the air.

what i am suggesting is a radiator sized for our application is not even close to 100% efficeint so some heat that is transfered from the cpu into the water STAYS in the water and never transfers into the air untill after the cpu is shut off and the water is given a chance to cool down. the more water in your loop the greater the mass of the "heatsink"

if you compare the theoretical size of the water-heatsink to the actual size of the metalic heatsink (used in aircooling)... the water has a much greater potential to store heat. most of the heat must be transfrered to the air in the metalic sink b/c its much smaller mass and consequently less capacity for heat storage.
:horse:

[MaxxxRacer]

euclid i know what u said... and my explanation was based on what u said as what u said is true... sigh...

i swear if this doesnt stop im gonna get sheograths engineering professor who is head of the columbia engineering department to explain this so you will all stop having theories and arguments...

[euclid]

if there is heat retained in the water then its not in the air. which means lower ambient than aircooling.
that was the topic and this is the explaination.

youre right in that once the water is at full capacity then the air will heat up at the same rate. that time will depend on how much water you have. if youre concerned about ambient the loop should have a 20gal fishtank as a reservior or something.

i thought you were contradicting me at first maxxx its difficlut to make heads and tails on everyones position when there are so many peopel participating.

[MaxxxRacer]

columbia university...

the water will store a limited amount of watts and the wattage that it can store is VERY small in comparison to ur system output. thus the amount ur room is cooler is so increadibly low its not measureable. also ur pump will entirely make up for this too!

so u get NO gain. infact its warmer!

[saratoga]

if there is heat retained in the water then its not in the air. which means lower ambient than aircooling.
that was the topic and this is the explaination.

youre right in that once the water is at full capacity then the air will heat up at the same rate. that time will depend on how much water you have. if youre concerned about ambient the loop should have a 20gal fishtank as a reservior or something.

i thought you were contradicting me at first maxxx its difficlut to make heads and tails on everyones position when there are so many peopel participating.

Max is dead on here. Technically some heat is retained in the system, but its extremely little, and like he says, after a few moments of running the system 100% of the heat being produced by the CPU is being dissipated into the room. Then once you turn off the system, all that heat is eventually dissipated to the air.

Lets crunch some numbers here. My system uses 250w at the wall so maybe 120w of that goes into the watercooling loop (i've got a ton of disks). Lets say I have 2 liters of water in my loop. Finally lets say my water is 4C above ambient on average. That means I have 2 liters*4186 j/l*C *4C = 33.5kj worth of heat in my coolant. Thats 4.65 minutes worth of CPU heat buffered in the coolant until I turn the system off. Almost nothing, since I leave the machine on for days at a time (and when I turn it off it all gets dumped into the room anyway . . .)

[euclid]

after the system is turned off the cpu is not dumping heat into the air anymore, the heat stored within the water dissapates SLOWLY at that point and does not mean it will raise the ambient temp to what the aircooled system was at when the cpu was on and running.

and regarding the pump maxxx, an ac pump like the iwaki that heats up will be heating the air, but i find it highly unlikely that a dc pulling 10watts will make any difference in air temp. and certainly not enough to make up for the waters heat retention. i didnt buy an iwaki b/c i was concerned about my room temp.

you guys are wrong about this, you have just admit it at this point.

[euclid]

Lets crunch some numbers here. My system uses 250w at the wall so maybe 120w of that goes into the watercooling loop (i've got a ton of disks). Lets say I have 2 liters of water in my loop. Finally lets say my water is 4C above ambient on average. That means I have 2 liters*4186 j/l*C *4C = 33.5kj worth of heat in my coolant. Thats 4.65 minutes worth of CPU heat buffered in the coolant until I turn the system off. Almost nothing, since I leave the machine on for days at a time (and when I turn it off it all gets dumped into the room anyway . . .)


ok lets crunch the numbers... do the same math for 20 gallons of water or 100gallons.

if i was concerned about my room temp i would use the most water i could in order to prevent the heat dissipating into the air. since im not, im using a stadard reservior.... THE ORIGINAL QUESTION/TOPIC was if a watercooling loop will provide lower ambient temps. IT CLEARLY WILL depending on how you setup the loop... i could run the reservoir, radiator and pump in a different room, or a closed closet... then none of the cpu heat will be raising ambient.

if someone is concerned about ambient then they have options with watercooling that are not present in aircooling, so the temp will be lower, and possibly signifacantly lower. TOPIC ANSWERED, who cares about columbia university

[STEvil]

after the system is turned off the cpu is not dumping heat into the air anymore
True, in fact its not dumping heat anywhere but into the water until it reaches ambient. The energy stored in the water will dissipate through the radiator and tubing until the rest of the loop has reached room ambient however. The end effect is that the air cooled system and the water cooled system (assuming 120w heat output from the CPU consistancy so as to compare apples to apples) have both dissipated the same amount of energy into the room.

the heat stored within the water dissapates SLOWLY at that point and does not mean it will raise the ambient temp to what the aircooled system was at when the cpu was on and running.
If the air cooled system and the water cooled system are both absorbing 120w of energy from the CPU and releasing it into the room constantly then they will have the same total energy accumulation and deposit into the room. Room ambient will remain the same between both systems assuming they can both handle the heat load of the CPU. If they cant then the temeperature of one setup will rise continually until the system crashes and room ambient for that system will have been slightly less than the other.

and regarding the pump maxxx, an ac pump like the iwaki that heats up will be heating the air, but i find it highly unlikely that a dc pulling 10watts will make any difference in air temp. and certainly not enough to make up for the waters heat retention. i didnt buy an iwaki b/c i was concerned about my room temp.
Sorry, this isnt dependant on AC/DC, its dependant on the design of the pump. 10w is still 10w, and over several hours running time that could be kilowatts worth of power dumped into the room (whether it be from within the loop or from the pumps casing).

you guys are wrong about this, you have just admit it at this point.
no, you just arent looking at heat as an energy form.

[Sheograth]

Yeah it would seriously help if you guys understood anything about physics and thermodynamics, maxxxracer is correct.

[STEvil]

ok lets crunch the numbers... do the same math for 20 gallons of water or 100gallons.
Why? You dont change the outcome of the system by doing that.

if i was concerned about my room temp i would use the most water i could in order to prevent the heat dissipating into the air.
That would only help you in the short term.

since im not, im using a stadard reservior.... THE ORIGINAL QUESTION/TOPIC was if a watercooling loop will provide lower ambient temps. IT CLEARLY WILL depending on how you setup the loop...
Its actually dependant on the type of water cooling: Radiator (no) or bong (yes).

i could run the reservoir, radiator and pump in a different room, or a closed closet... then none of the cpu heat will be raising ambient.
Apples to oranges.

if someone is concerned about ambient then they have options with watercooling that are not present in aircooling, so the temp will be lower, and possibly signifacantly lower. TOPIC ANSWERED, who cares about columbia university
They may not have the option to go bong, though. Either way we look at this ambient doesnt really matter since air is constantly recirculated throughout a house anyways.. otherwise you'd sufficate.

Whether air or water achieves lower ambient is rather pointless.

[euclid]

you guys are correct, i am incorrect, thats what you want to hear and i am done wasting my time.

[saratoga]

after the system is turned off the cpu is not dumping heat into the air anymore, the heat stored within the water dissapates SLOWLY at that point and does not mean it will raise the ambient temp to what the aircooled system was at when the cpu was on and running.


Depends. While the system is running, the room temp w/ water assymtopically approaches the aircooling temp since the energy is only buffered at the start. However you're assuming that the room has good cooling verses the system. If you have a thermostat in the room, this might be true. If not, once the system is switched off, the two rooms will likely equilibrate.

Oh and that assumes you do not use a pump in your system and that the watercooling system can use the same size fan as the heatsink. Not realistic IMO.

and regarding the pump maxxx, an ac pump like the iwaki that heats up will be heating the air, but i find it highly unlikely that a dc pulling 10watts will make any difference in air temp. and certainly not enough to make up for the waters heat retention. i didnt buy an iwaki b/c i was concerned about my room temp.

you guys are wrong about this, you have just admit it at this point.

Assume 2 liters. Thats 23.5kj. With a 10w pump (which is pretty weak IMO), after 39 minutes, the pump has released more heat into the air then the water has buffered. In which case the aircooled system now has a cooler room then the watercooled system.

IT CLEARLY WILL depending on how you setup the loop...

Wait, it clearly will, except when it doesn't? Move the goalposts much ?

Anyway this is silly and STEvil covered the rest.

Edit:

you guys are correct, i am incorrect, thats what you want to hear and i am done wasting my time.

Buck up little camper! This the internet, not MIT. Don't take yourself so seriously and you'll have more fun. :)

[MaxxxRacer]

ok guys before this gets out of hand let me remind you to keep it clean and keep any insults to yourself, as XS is NOT the place for such behaviour.

[Special_K]

bahhhh K miss all the good insults (where they edited or summat?)