News: Linux for losers?

[Frisch]

Some new thoughts about Linux.

NEW YORK - Theo de Raadt is a pioneer of the open source software movement and a huge proponent of free software. But he is no fan of the open source Linux operating system.

More here:

http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html

[agenda2005]

Raadt is sick and just been overly haughty about the progress of Linux.

[clayton]

Why would different OS user diss other OS users? heh :p:

[shadowing]

Linux pwns. End of story. Just because you don't use Linux doesn't mean you have the right to diss another os without trying it.

[$a1Ty]

he does have a couple of valid points

but i like how he complains about the linux community just being a bunch of "hackers" coding for linux, well thats what open source is about

[perkam]

If linux is for losers, then I'd gladly confess to be one...There's less suffering in being called a loser than banging your head against the desk figuring out why the same spyware keeps installing itself or why windows just randomly hangs if you let it idle for too long :rolleyes:

Perkam

[stmok]

I've just registered in this forum, and I wanna set a few things straight. (So people don't end up hating each other in regards to open-source solutions).


NOTE : I've posted the following in overclockers.com.au and in techwatch.com.au forums...But I feel, after reading the responses here, people should be made aware of a few things.


Article in question : http://www.forbes.com/technology/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html

Now before Linux users get mad, have a good look at the author of the article.

Daniel Lyons

I've highlighted his name for good reason.

Why?

Because he HATES open-source. (especially Linux).

That's right. He HATES open-source and he is a Senior Editor in a relatively well-known business magazine. A perfect way to push your hatred views upon the non-techie business people.

Don't believe me?

Open Source Smack-Down
http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/15/jboss-ibm-linux_cz_dl_0615jboss.html

...This is what open source software is all about: creating knockoffs and giving them away, destroying the value of whatever the other guy is selling...

Take a good look at Daniel's past articles relating to open-source or Linux, and you see a picture forming.


I suspect, Theo de Raadt (head of OpenBSD) was just wanting to inform more people about OpenBSD, but got suckered into a flame war with Linux. Essentially, he got played like a fool.

Theo is well-known for being a coder that can be described as "difficult" (according to a NetBSD coder), and his views are often responsible for pissing off OpenBSD users at mailinglists, losing his Govt grant for OpenBSD, and got him nowhere in regards to Intel releasing drivers for their wireless cards.

A mouth and attitude like that is perfect for being used by someone like Mr Lyons. Get one open-source project to publically attack another. (Doesn't this remind you of that movie "The Sum of All Fears"?)

Theo's "over enthusiasm" is really to do with his view.

Personally, even though I use OpenBSD, I think he should at least present his views in a more toned down, and balanced manner.

If you have a look at this article :

BSD cognoscenti on Linux
http://os.newsforge.com/os/05/06/09/2132233.shtml

You see not all folks in the BSD community are like Theo.

NetBSD's Christos Zoulas tries to offer a balanced comment when asked for comparisons. He says NetBSD offers this, but Linux is better at offering that, etc. He in no way attacks Linux in a harsh tone for any of its shortcomings. He even points out the defficencies of NetBSD.

When Linus was asked to compare with BSD, as seen here :

Linus compares Linux and BSDs
http://os.newsforge.com/os/05/06/09/2128249.shtml

He gracefully bows out and didn't bother with making comparisons at all. He seems like few of the mature coders, who knows that inciting flame wars is highly unproductive for all.


So what's the general message if you're ever in charge of an open-source project?

Watch what you say. Present a balanced argument. If you don't know or don't want to waste time, say you just don't know and leave it at that. Its one thing to present your views, but remember, what you say also reflects on the project publically.

And, if you're ever gonna be interviewed by Forbes, and Daniel Lyons is asking the questions...Tell them to F*** OFF. :)

( OK, maybe not in such harsh words. Just tell them you don't have time for that. ;) )

Please don't get pissed off by the article, its just words, and the author is a manipulative money obsessed weeny who's gunning for open-source. Don't get caught in by it.

That's all I want to say regarding this...I am a Linux and BSD user myself, so I perfer to stay neutral on this issue. ;)

[perkam]

Hey Stmok,

:banana: :welcome: Welcome to Xtreme Systems !!!! :welcome: :banana:

Very intriguing post there with lots of information about Linux and how its different from other BSDs...though you know the question will remain and thow open source enthusiasts will try to convince ppl to stay neutral, there will always be those who'll be wanting to make a definite conclusion on how one BSD is better than the other and in which ways - to categorize everything if you will.

Oh well...my linux (MDrake 10.2) started to crash yesterday :p: so I'm singing the prasies of linux for EVERYONE just yet...but found out having Amarok on for a lengthy period of time causes it...oh well...:)

Hope you'll stay at XS to give more thoughtful insights...

Perkam

[Hans.Gruber]

I always have had opinion that Linux development is not well organised, and it could be much better that it is.
But that doesn't mean it isn't best for running a server, or at least better than windows.

[stmok]

Hey Stmok,

:banana: :welcome: Welcome to Xtreme Systems !!!! :welcome: :banana:

Very intriguing post there with lots of information about Linux and how its different from other BSDs...though you know the question will remain and thow open source enthusiasts will try to convince ppl to stay neutral, there will always be those who'll be wanting to make a definite conclusion on how one BSD is better than the other and in which ways - to categorize everything if you will.

Oh well...my linux (MDrake 10.2) started to crash yesterday :p: so I'm singing the prasies of linux for EVERYONE just yet...but found out having Amarok on for a lengthy period of time causes it...oh well...:)

Hope you'll stay at XS to give more thoughtful insights...

Perkam

Thanks. I will. :)

I just hate it when popular media sources portray one thing to people without showing what the real picture is like. (I often look at several sources to see what's really going on).

I believe there isn't one tool that is absolutely perfect for the job. I find that certain OSs or applications are really good at one thing that others aren't. The best OS is the one that suits your requirements. (Not because someone says so).

This explains why I've got OpenBSD for firewall, FreeBSD for server roles, and Linux for everything else. (well except for games and specialised engineering apps, you still need Windows there.)

I mostly favour open-source because of its flexibility. ie : You can make it such that it meets your requirements.

eg : If you look at the X-35's engine (JSF project), they used a realtime capable variant of Linux to be the software for its digital engine control.

I mean, if Linux is so bad as Forbes portray's it, why is US's largest military provider of aircraft (Lockheed Martin), using it in their X-35?

See how much bull Forbes is? ;)

[Hans.Gruber]

See how much bull Forbes is? ;)
That dude (owner founder of forbes) was evaluated by some psychologists/experts etc.
They did look a video tape when he was giving a speech, and he didn't blink his eyes during it (lasted about 30min or so).

Their conclusion ?
"That's not human, humans can't just stop blinking, it's not normal"

:D

[stmok]

Well, that explains everything!

He is of Sith! :D

[$a1Ty]

we must gather our jedi brethren to stop him than

[perkam]

May the force be with you gentlemen, but lets not do this to the thread just yet ;) lmao

Perkam

[stmok]

LOL.

Although, it would be great for someone to start a Linux based project that really cleans up and addresses its weak areas. Its one less excuse for Theo. ;)

No doubt, that trying to encourage Linux programmers to see the same direction is gonna be a challenge, as everyone wants to go "their own way"...But some examples of Linux in applications truely demonstrate what its really capable of.

That's what I wanna do, start something that is based on the Linux kernel, but cleaned up and documented.

Don't give me 5 ways to do the same thing. Explore the 5 different ways, and give me the best one for that task. The one that works well overall. That's the kind of project I want to lead. (If I had a decent job/income that is...)

But its not quite easy as one would have to first start with a good business plan that doesn't piss off the Linux community itself, while earning sufficient profit to live off and maintain the project.

[masterofpuppets]

Linux these days, pretty much is a load of random pieces of code pasted together. 2.6 isn't really that great, as soon as they start developing 2.7/2.8 I'm gonna be straight in and try it out.

[DriveEuro]

If linux is for losers, then I'd gladly confess to be one...There's less suffering in being called a loser than banging your head against the desk figuring out why the same spyware keeps installing itself or why windows just randomly hangs if you let it idle for too long :rolleyes:

Perkam
Only partially agree with you. I personally am a seasoned Windows user and I know a handful of tweaks to make things run smoother and safer. But you have to admit, most of the people that get the spyware on their comps are the ones:

Using Kazaa to download (hmm, DUH)
Browsing any site with total disregard of spyware or popups
Running Internet Explorer
Probably not running spyware programs often
Downloading free trial software and demos (LOADED with spyware)


If you know what you are doing and have some common sense/knowledge with computers, then you will be likely to never have to deal with any of the problems you mentioned above. I run Lavasoft adaware a few times a year and never see anything other than cookies come up on my scans. The spyware/hijacking/popup world isn't really bad if you know how to get around it. The well informed/learned people don't suffer from the problems you mentioned above... like myself and a lot of other people on these forums.

The problem with this spyware stuff, not enough people know how to PROPERLY deal with it.

[Tilmitt]

Theo actually makes a very good point which most of you have entirely missed. Linux is a mish mash of code strung together by crude hacks. BSD's centralised development makes it alot more elegant and robust. I personally think it's an awful shame that so much of the opensource effort is put into Linux when open source itself would benefit far more from putting that effort into BSD.

[Ugly n Grey]

I hear that loud and clear. I am a CTO for a pretty big corp and I've carefully scrolled through Linux source a few times. I finally came to the conclusion that's theres no way in hell is my neck going to be on the line for authorizing the installation of that OS. For Desktops or small business where things are not critical....go for it, I'm all for it, I run it myself in fact. For my companies? No friggin way, AIX, Solaris, HPUX, Novell, M$ ... no worries, Linux on my corporate servers? no chance. Solaris is actually my favourite of them all but AIX has more features and some really nifty built in tools. Novell? Print and file...servers that have been up steady for YEARS are not unheard of in the companies. Sure we have M$ boxes but they are all relegated to M$ applications, not much you can do there. Anyhow, I think he's right, BSD is a great product, I wish Novell had picked that to distro instead of SuSE. Linux on some of my personal desktops will stay , I like the idea of a free OS that comes in multiple flavours...