First single stage, a few questions.

[matttheniceguy]

Hi everyone!! I just signed up for an account here but I have been reading parts of these forums for quite some time. I have been a member of overclockers.com for a while, but never signed up here because I didn't see myself quite "extreme" enough for you nuts. I think I am finally ready to admit it though; My name is matt and I'm an overclocking addict.

anyway, I've been wanting to build a single stage R290 unit for my XP-M, and I finally have the time!!! Here is what I was planning to use:

-Compressor from a 5200 btu Air conditioner, probably this one here (http://www.londondrugs.com/Cultures/en-US/Product+Detail/Homeware.htm?CatalogNavigationBreadCrumbs=Homeware ;Homeware;Appliances;Air%20Conditioners;Diplomat%2 05200%20BTU%20Window%20Air%20Conditioner&CS_Catalog=Homeware&CS_RootCategory=Homeware&CS_Category=Air%20Conditioners&CS_ProductID=0808014&ProductTab=1)
-Condensor from that same AC unit.
-9 feet of .028" cap tube as recomended here (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29694&page=1&pp=25)
-Home made evap (breaking out the $30 canadian tire drill press :cool: )


I have a few questions:

Can I use a solid suction line? I am making the unit specifially for my computer, so as long as I make the line such that the evap mounts ok it should be fine right?

And here's a dumb question you don't see much, how do you connect a propane cylinder to a service manifold? I'm assuming you need some sort of addapter for the hose or something? I don't really care if I use a big BBQ cylinder or one of the smaller camping bottles.

Thanks.

[Cr@sh_D1n3r]

Welcome to the forums!

Compressor and condensor will be perfect for your system :toast: You can use a solid line as long as the vibrations are all gone since vibrations could kill the cpu. The way to do this is by doing a coil with the suction line before returning back to the compressor. You'll need many turns to completely dissipate the vibration but this is really possible.

For the propane connection, you know the the connector of the BBQ hose? Unscrew one from a hose, remove the plastic thread (press fitted) then braze a schrader valve on it. Replace the plastic then connect refrigeration hoses and gauge and you're good to go :woot:

[kayl]

welcome matty, ya differently xtreme enough to be a member here, I remember ya from overclockers forum, that’s where I first joined (overclockers forum.)
Good to see ya got the time to finish ya phase change unit, I have seen a few pics of your stuff from the past, will work well those evaps ya make.

For capillary line start about 92” of 0.028 ,88” of 0.028”was sweet for r290 for me and my evaps.

You can cut the end off a bbq r290 bottle and put a schraider valve in there and a few hose claps, (getto style)
Or do it properly, heres a great guide by epsilon.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46213&highlight=epsilon

also with the solid suction line it may take a lot of time to get it to the correct position to mount to the cpu. Maybe remove the mobo from the tower and go the open cas mobo laying flat.
I think ppl have cracked cpu cores using solid suction lines
I used about 30cm of flex line and the rest copper pipe in my latest single stage to give you a little play (enough) to mount the evap to the mobo with out putting too much strain on the mobo
good luck.

[runmc]

Welcome to the forum Matt. :welcome:

It sounds like you've done your homework. To make my adaptor , I used a soldering torch and cut the end off of it and brazed a shrader onto it.

I think a solid line to the cpu can be done, but I don't recommend it. If possible, go the flex line route. I have a couple extra flex lines if you need one, PM me. ;)

http://home.comcast.net/~rbmccall2000/wsb/media/78548/site1528.jpg

[matttheniceguy]

Thanks for the link kayl, just what I was looking for. It said somewhere in there that the camping propane tanks arn't very pure and have a lot of butane in them, so I guess I'll be going full BBQ style. 92" of .028" sounds a bit short no? I don't really have any idea myself, but according to that link I had it would be. According to my highly inaccurate program, if I get my cpu to say 3100mhz at 1.95v I'll be right around 150 watts. Of course I would assume the cap tube also depends on the compressor so maby you are assuming a higher power compressor than the link does. What size compressor was on your R290 unit?

Thanks for the offer runmc, you may just save me hours of torment and suffering.

Here are some pics of the evap I'll probably go with. I just made a solid model of it so I can print a template and glue it to the copper. It's a lot easier drilling all the holes when you have a target, and you know things will work out nicely. I'm making the evap from a 1" copper bar. I'm thinking that the holes right over the core should leave about a 3mm base, and the ones further away will leave 5 or 6mm.

In the picture, the smaller grey rectangle is an outline of my barton core, and the grey dots are where the mounting holes are. The bigger grey rectangle is an outline of the actual cpu.

[Rondrian]

update this thread at every step you do... I am very interested in building my own :) if I can't build one by my own, I will buy one from chilly1 or PCice :) but first I look up some information :)
go ahead!

[smurfmods]

How are you planning to get the propane out of a BBQ style tank? I haven't seen a BBQ adapter yet.

I used the propane bottle adapter and it worked fine for the little camping tanks. Where did you hear that it wasn't pure? I thought it was pretty good propane. I actually thought the BBQ stuff wasn't as good...

[Marvin]

Hi Matt we are glad to you be here... :toast:
the evaporator has a nice design, but remember to use apropriate bits.
Maybe you loose some cooper the first try. I tried, and its hard and somtimes boring....
welcome aboard

[Cr@sh_D1n3r]

This is the way I did my adapter. It's a bit archaic, but it's working #1!

http://img181.echo.cx/img181/2347/crim00015ou.th.jpg (http://img181.echo.cx/my.php?image=crim00015ou.jpg)
http://img181.echo.cx/img181/33/crim00020jc.th.jpg (http://img181.echo.cx/my.php?image=crim00020jc.jpg)
http://img224.echo.cx/img224/1516/crim00037tk.th.jpg (http://img224.echo.cx/my.php?image=crim00037tk.jpg)

[smurfmods]

It's a little ugly :wierd:

But it will get the gas out!! :fart:


What about the quality of the R290 gas? BBQ better than camping gas. Any proof to back that up? Anybody know?

[matttheniceguy]

What about the quality of the R290 gas? BBQ better than camping gas. Any proof to back that up? Anybody know?

I got that from the 10th post here (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46213&highlight=epsilon)

I don't know where he got the information, but it makes sence. The propane that we use to fill the big tanks is the same stuff that people run their propane converted trucks on. They would have to keep this fairly pure or there would be huge emition and fouling problems.


Maybe you loose some cooper the first try. I tried, and its hard and somtimes boring....

I have never made an evaporator before, but I did make a waterblock for two pelts using a drill press. Talk about boring, this thing had a little over 600 holes. I also didn't make the space between the holes quite as big as I should have so the bit kept wandering over to the previous hole. Here is a poor webcam shot of the thing before I solderd it up.

[gclg2000]

holy god, that must have taken forever.

[matttheniceguy]

Yea, I think the total time was around 12 hours.

[Cr@sh_D1n3r]

HOLY ****! I hope you used a drill press hahahaha!

[matttheniceguy]

Well I got most of the evaporator drilled out before the chuck on my drill press broke. It was a piece of junk anyway, so a new chuck will be nice.

I tried playing around with some brazing, but the results wern't too good. I think my main problem was the rod. I was trying to braze two brass parts together but I think the rod was pretty much entirely brass as well. The parts were melting before the rod was, and I never got the material to flow. What kind of rod do you use on brass?

Here are a couple pics of my attempted brazing. I had no problem sticking the pieces of copper together, but the brass parst definatly didn't work.

[Cr@sh_D1n3r]

I can see that you probably killed the valve :P In the valve there's a rubber seal . It probably melted but anyway... I think you didn't had the valve propertly heated up and that's why you wasted a LOT of brazing rods. When you braze, always wait until the piece is bright red hot and heat the rod a bit before applying it on the piece to braze so you don't "cool" down before you braze it. I used 5% rods to do the job and it worked just fine.

[wdrzal]

you need silver solder rod, at least 45% silver content for brazing brass.

[matttheniceguy]

I removed the valve before I brazed it. My problem wasn't that the parts were too cold, I had to heat them up so much they melted. The filler material I was trying to use just had to high of melting point.

Thanks for the info wdrzal, I suspected I needed a rod with a decent amount of silver. The people at the autoparts store where I got the rod looked at me funnie when I said I thought the rod needed some silver in it, but I guess they just didn't know what they were talking about.

[wdrzal]

If you have 20# cylinders you can buy a fitting for it for 5 to 10 dollars it will usually have 1/4" brass pipe nipple comming out .You can get a schrader to adapt to that thread or you can silver solder one on. high silver rods are expensive,so just thread it togeather,thats what I would do. for those small fuel tanks I think you are stuck modifying what you tried because of the type of valve and the thread.

[matttheniceguy]

I'd rather use a full size tank for the system anyway. I was trying to make that one more as a first attempt at brazing. It was just made of an old propane torch and crappy pressure valve.

[smurfmods]

matttheniceguy:

Thanks for the info on the BBQ propane. Those little bottles are expensive anyways. Looks like I'll be making an adapter myself this weekend.

Too bad about the brass soldering. Did something similar with some shreader valves. Had the wrong solder and wrong torch. Took forever to solder it... and then I found out it was useless because I had melted the valve. Ruined my night but I learned some valuable lessons. I wuz cursing the guy at home depot that said "This is exactly what you need!"

[matttheniceguy]

I wuz cursing the guy at home depot that said "This is exactly what you need!"

I know what you mean. An old clerk at homehardware sold me some silicone to connect some different tubes in my watercooling loop. He was in his late 60's and sounded like he relly knew his stuff, so I believed him when he said the silicone would stick to the tubes I had (which he just gave me from the plumbing section). A week later I heard my pump start to suck air, and when I looked in it had droped about a liter of water into my case. No damage, but it was close. The silicone literaly fell off the tubes, it didn't stick to them at all.

[kayl]

If you have 20# cylinders you can buy a fitting for it for 5 to 10 dollars it will usually have 1/4" brass pipe nipple comming out .You can get a schrader to adapt to that thread or you can silver solder one on. high silver rods are expensive,so just thread it togeather,thats what I would do. for those small fuel tanks I think you are stuck modifying what you tried because of the type of valve and the thread.


This is the fitting that I use for my bbq r290.
I got them from the local camping store and I also available local hard hare store as well for 9kg bbq r290 I pay $23AUS for 9kg of hc22/502 (r290/ethane blend, refrigerant grade) is around $500AUS
So far I havnt seen that much of a different between the two in performance.



when i did the bromeze torch schraider valve mod mine leaked through o-ring.
can beat a tank. you can also get 1kg, 2kg and 4.5kg bbq gas bottles

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30255&stc=1p

[matttheniceguy]

Well I got my drill press back up and running, or more accuratly an entirely new drill press. I got the thing from Canadian Tire a little over a year ago, and they just exchanged the whole drill press for me even though I was a couple weeks past the 1 year warrenty. Thank you Canadian Tire :up:

I came across some hoses that converted full size BBQ tanks to the camping tank connection, so when it comes time for that I may just go that route.

I finnished drilling out the channels of the evaporator and then cut the outside.

I also went down to the recycling depot in my town and raided their bin of old compressors. Each one was more haggard than the last, so I grabed the two that looked the most likely to actualy run. They had quite a few of these scary looking ones that were a bit bigger than a basketball, but I figured I would stay away from those monsters for now. I'm just planning on making a vacume pump out of one of these. I'll clean them up a bit and see if they actually run tonight.

[chilly1]

you need silver solder rod, at least 45% silver content for brazing brass.
15% silfoss and white past flux will allow you to solder brass to copper or steel of brass not as pretty as 45% but it will seal as good,,

[SlackeR]

About propane purity:
i emailed BP gas in Denmark and asked how pure their gases are. the answer was:

I vore gule flasker (2 kg - 33 kg) er der ublandet propan af raffinaderikvalitet, og i de blå ( 2 kg og 3 kg CGI) er der ublandet butan af raffinaderikvalitet.´

(yellow bottles (standard bbq i denmark) propane directly from the refinery, blue bottles (these are the international ones, i think, callad campingaz, used for small camping stoves) contain reifenery-quality butane.)

I truckflaskerne er der en blanding af 70 % propan og 30 % butan.

(truck bottles are 70% propane and 30% butane)

Propan og butan er gasser, der fremkommer ved destillation af råolie, og "raffinaderikvalitet" er ikke 100 % rent butan eller propan. De indeholder af praktiske og økonomiske årsager altid rester af andre kulbrinter, og i BP Gas` standard accepterer vi op til 10 % andre kulbrinter, men normalt er der under 5 %.

(he tells that the "refinery-quality" is not 100% pure, the do contain other hydrocarbons, and that their standards allow up to 10% other hydrocarbons, but they are usually below 5%. Furthermore they add the smelly stuff so you can detect a leak ;) )

Med venlig hilsen/Best Regards
Peter Krebs

[matttheniceguy]

Well I tried those two compressors. One of them spat out all sorts of oil and water when I first turned it on, but it seems to be running fine. The other one must have some sort of internal short or something. All I got when I pluged it in was a nice pop and some magic smoke from the plug :rolleyes:

In other news, I'm a complete idiot. I didn't think the compressor that was running was pulling all that much vacume, so I thought I would try and measure it. I hooked up a rubber tube and put the other end in a resevoir with water in it, about a meter below the compressor. I didn't think it had enough vacume to suck that high, and even if it did I thought the flow rate was so low I would be able to turn the thing off before it sucked in any water. Wrong on both counts. I gave the compressor a little jog by punching the plug in and out of the socket as quick as I could, and it seems this was more than enough for it to suck the resevoir dry. There is now about half a cup of water in the compressor. It spat out maby 10% of this water through the high side, but the rest is still in there. I tried tipping the thing over and stuff like that, but nothing will come out. It still works fine though, so oh well....

Incase anyone is interested, it is a Matsu$hita D123LGAA 1/4hp R-12 compressor, with the new "full of water" mod.

I brazed a valve onto the low side, but had some problems with the rod not melting or flowing nicely. I really need to find some proper brazing rods, what types of stores usually have them?

[kayl]

dude water is the worst thing to have in a compressor, i would use that for a vacuum pump (change oil) and get another compressor.
once you have moisture in the system it will take alot of vacuuming (with nirtogen) oil changes etc to get it all out.

[Ad Rock]

I came across some hoses that converted full size BBQ tanks to the camping tank connection, so when it comes time for that I may just go that route.



Think you could point me in the direction of where you found these hoses? I will be doing my own project (very very similar to yours) this summer and I would like to make it as easy as possible. Being a fellow Canadian (and student) r290 looks like the only reasonable choice for me.

Good luck on your set-up Matt I will be following this thread very closely :D.

[matttheniceguy]

dude water is the worst thing to have in a compressor, i would use that for a vacuum pump (change oil) and get another compressor.

I was only planning on using it as a vacume pump anyways. It was an old piece of garbage to start with. I'll probably buy a new 5200 BTU AC unit for my compressor and condensor. I'm not sure if this is right but I read that 5200 BTU AC's have 1/2 hp compressors. Does that sound about right?

Ad Rock, I came across the hose in Canadian Tire. In the BBQ section there is a rack filled with all sorts of hoses and regularots and adapters and stuff like that.

[Ad Rock]

I was only planning on using it as a vacume pump anyways. It was an old piece of garbage to start with. I'll probably buy a new 5200 BTU AC unit for my compressor and condensor. I'm not sure if this is right but I read that 5200 BTU AC's have 1/2 hp compressors. Does that sound about right?

Ad Rock, I came across the hose in Canadian Tire. In the BBQ section there is a rack filled with all sorts of hoses and regularots and adapters and stuff like that.

Excellent thanks for that man, sometimes I love Canadian Tire.

Also just a note I thought I would pass on to you from Zork at OCforums.com (he has an account here too don’t remember the name), he told me that usually those A/C units come with a rotary compressor and that they are rather loud. He told me to avoid it if I wanted a reasonably quiet set-up. You are probably already aware of this but just thought I would pass it on to you.

[matttheniceguy]

I've heard that. Right now I am sitting next to about 15 fans though so I don't think it's going to get much worse. Don't rotarys pull a pretty awsome vacume as well? Hopefully once the system is down to temperature it will be fairly quiet.

I chose a rotary AC compressor mainly because they are quite powerfull, designed for 24/7 usage and are fairly cheap. I'll probaly have to spend about $130 CDN or so for a new 5200 BTU unit. If anyone can suggest a different compressor that will give decent results, is quieter, and will cost less than the AC unit, let me know.

[kayl]

I was only planning on using it as a vacume pump anyways. It was an old piece of garbage to start with. I'll probably buy a new 5200 BTU AC unit for my compressor and condensor. I'm not sure if this is right but I read that 5200 BTU AC's have 1/2 hp compressors. Does that sound about right?

Ad Rock, I came across the hose in Canadian Tire. In the BBQ section there is a rack filled with all sorts of hoses and regularots and adapters and stuff like that.


yeah thats right and about 7cc from memory, a few members have used them and they make an ok cooler.
rotaries are my personal favourite, and ya get us to the hummm when the cold kicks in :toast:

[matttheniceguy]

Well the stuff I bought from Chilly1 got here today (thanks Chilly1). A gauge set with hoses, some nice shrader valves, cap tube, and a flex line. The steel flex line shown in the picture, can I just braze that to some copper pipe and use it as the suction line? It wasn't quite what I was expecting but given that chilly probably knows what I want better than I do I'm assuming this is the right stuff to use. As an added touch, the manifold gauge makes fun of you if your low side pressure is to high.

[matttheniceguy]

:brick: :brick: :brick:

Well I tried brazing my evaporator today. I set it up with a propane blowtorch sitting against the base to help heat it up. Using another torch that uses brazing fuel I got the whole thing glowing nice and bright red. Getting the brazing rod to flow was another story, it was nearly impossable. I would hold the torch on one area for several minutes, but almost never got the rod to flow. Every once and a while for no apparent reason the rod actually would flow, but it wasn't consistant. I took me over half an hour to braze the whole thing, and it didn't work well at all. After it was cooled, I was able to peal the brazing material right off the block with a pair of pliers. :dammit:

I ground the material off the edges of the block, hoping that the material in the seam would be better, no luck. The plate lifted right off the base, the brazing material hardly stuck at all. I have no idea why it didn't work. I cleaned the parts very well before brazing, and there was absolutly no oxidization. The brazing rod didn't want to melt most of the time, but I was able to get it to flow nicely some of the time, and that material didn't stick to the block at all. The rods are made of brass. Anyone know what the hell is going wrong here?

[n00b 0f l337]

Ouch that sucks. Quite literally seems like it wasnt hot enough, also, what type of braze did you use.

[wdrzal]

wrong rods,brass rods are for steel or tin

[matttheniceguy]

wrong rods,brass rods are for steel or tin

I was under the impression they worked for copper to copper as well. They have worked fine for pipe joints, and when I bought them I told the guy I wanted them for copper to copper. Oh well, I sudpose I have just proved that they don't actually work for copper to copper.

Whay rods would you recomend? I am using a brazing torch with a 2000 degree flame temp, so the temps arn't too high.

[gkiing]

I was only planning on using it as a vacume pump anyways. It was an old piece of garbage to start with. I'll probably buy a new 5200 BTU AC unit for my compressor and condensor. I'm not sure if this is right but I read that 5200 BTU AC's have 1/2 hp compressors. Does that sound about right?

Ad Rock, I came across the hose in Canadian Tire. In the BBQ section there is a rack filled with all sorts of hoses and regularots and adapters and stuff like that.

Whatever you do, please don't vent the HCFC's; have them recovered!

[matttheniceguy]

I'm buying a new AC unit, so it will actually have R134a in it, HFC. Still not exactly good for the environment, but not R22 bad or anything. I will probably have my neighbour recover the refrigerant anyway.

[total_assault]

most a/c's still have r22 not r134a(it is used in cars, but performs more poorly than r22) at least mine i bought last year still did.

[matttheniceguy]

Well I cleaned all the garbage of the evaporator parts and brazed it with some silflos rods. OMG!!!! Brazing sure is easier when you have the right rod. It was fast, and the joint just sucked in the rod. Here is a pic of the block after a little cleaning.

[wdrzal]

Now thats a Big improvement!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

The right rod + the right heat and add a little technique,makes brazing pretty easy.

[Rondrian]

that looks great ;)
I am happy to see that your project is going on :)

[ZENNZZO]

Well I cleaned all the garbage of the evaporator parts and brazed it with some silflos rods. OMG!!!! Brazing sure is easier when you have the right rod. It was fast, and the joint just sucked in the rod. Here is a pic of the block after a little cleaning.There ya go!...arn't the right rods like heaven? :toast:

[expansionvalve]

Incase anyone is interested, it is a Matsu$hita D123LGAA 1/4hp R-12 compressor, with the new "full of water" mod.


I don't know why but the last line tickled me lol
"full of water" mod :D

[kayl]

There ya go!...arn't the right rods like heaven? :toast:

brown tip 15% best stuff around does everything
that is going to be a nice evap matty.

[matttheniceguy]

Well it turns out the "full of water mod" is infact a bad thing. I hooked up my gauges just to see how much vacume it would pull, and it got right around 29hg. I turned the compressor off and broke the vacume, and then tried it again. The compressor wouldn't turn on, and was compleatly dead. It won't budge, with or without anything connected to it. I don't know if it was just the load, or the water which probably started to evaporate and flooded the thing, but that compressor is toast.

I went back to the recycling depot and grabed a couple more freebies from their bin. It turned out that they both ran, so I made them into a vacume pump with the two compressors in series. They are both matsus#ita's, an S112LKAA and a D118LRAA. I haven't managed to find any information about their power or anything though. The compressors have been spitting out their oil whenever they are on, is it necessary to stick on some sort of oil feed into the low side and throw some oil in every once and a while, or will they be ok?

[smurfmods]

If you just using them for vacuum pumps it would be ok for a little while. It would never hurt to put some new stuff in there though. If you can afford the oil. Are you capping them off with something to keep them from contamination ? (oil oxidation)

[gkiing]

If you just using them for vacuum pumps it would be ok for a little while. It would never hurt to put some new stuff in there though. If you can afford the oil. Are you capping them off with something to keep them from contamination ? (oil oxidation)

the oil won't oxidize, but it will become acidic if it is POE oil. Chances are it's mineral or alkylbenzene if they are older compressors, in which case there's no need to worry.

[kayl]

those compressor are common arnt they matty
what current draw does it have on the label mine have below.
1.1A @ 240c 1/5Hp ??
1.39A @240 1/4Hp ?? guessing here.
any compressor in series does a nice vacuum.
replace the oil with mineral oil and it last longer.

[matttheniceguy]

I'm pretty sure they have mineral oil in them. The are spuing out a clear odourless fluid which is just a bit thicker than water. The lables on the compressors don't have any information about their current draw or anything else much. Just that they are both for R-12 and 115V at 60Hz. It doesn't really matter what they are though, so long as they pull a nice vacume.

[matttheniceguy]

Well here is a but of an update for anyone following this.

I have tested the home made vaume pump on an Ice bath and was able to make it boil, so it pulls at least a 4600 micron vacume. Deffinatly enough to get all the moisture out of the system.

I got a flexible suction line and brazed that on. I then found out that the cap tube I had installed was clogged. I assumed I had brazed it shut at one of the joints I had made and tool them appart, but it turned out there was a clog right in the middle of the line in an area I haden't even touched :brick: There is a lesson learnt the hard way - Check your captube before you braze it on -

I brazed the suction line and eveything back togeter, with only half the cap tube just to check for leaks. I made an addapter to go from a big BBQ propane tank to a gauge set, and connected it to the evap suction line assembly. I stuck it in a bucket of water and gave it about 50psi. I may of well stuck a straw in the water and blown bubbles. I guess I shouldn't have cleaned all the brazing material of the side of the block, as the thing leaks like mad now.

I cleaned up the block and tried to braze the joint again. It went ok, but after it cooled down I realized I had burnt a hole through the copper pipe coming out of the evap. The thing is such a mess now after being heated soo many times that I may just start fresh on it. Even if I don't do that, I have to cut the top right off and clean everything, and put a new top on it.