R-290 is not the same as propane

[wdrzal]

While R-290 is the ashrae name given to propane it is not completly the same.Propane is mainly derived from 2 sources natural gas and oil,about 50/50 mix. The refrigerant r-290 is refined to a more chemicaly pure state to have less than 5 ppm(parts per million) water content, propane that is intended for the use as a fuel has much higher content.I can not recall the excact contact but do remember that it differs by producer. just thought that you guys using it should be aware of that and might want to do some research to find out the water content in the fuel you are using as refrigerant :D . Walt

[gclg2000]

How much can a drier take to absorb the water if one were to use it.

[Russell_hq]

I used blowtorch propane extensively in my systems and found that the water content was not an issue, but its good to bear in mind that its there. Knowledge is power as they say :D

Although I did use Alco driers which can hold more moisture than the copper spun ones, i've never really seen it being an issue. I've seen people have blockages when using this type of propane, although the type of person using it doesn't usually have a good vacuum pump ;)

[Tyrou]

what is the impact of this on our systems ? Can the drier absorb the water included in propane ?

[kayl]

also r is for refrigerant so i guess ya could just call it 290.
bbq propane also has butane and a small amount of ethane.
normally legislation is required (i think for Australia) its about 95% pure propane.
the reason for this is to ensure that it burns correctly with safe emission i think.
not sure on the water content though.
also note that if ya tip the bottle upside down and let liquid 290 out there is a a brown substance that comes out. this is why every few months i change me oil if i push alot of bbq r290 through it. I think this gives bbq propane its oder.

[Unknown_road]

While R-290 is the ashrae name given to propane it is not completly the same.Propane is mainly derived from 2 sources natural gas and oil,about 50/50 mix. The refrigerant r-290 is refined to a more chemicaly pure state to have less than 5 ppm(parts per million) water content, propane that is intended for the use as a fuel has much higher content.I can not recall the excact contact but do remember that it differs by producer. just thought that you guys using it should be aware of that and might want to do some research to find out the water content in the fuel you are using as refrigerant :D . Walt

most of us know that bbq propane isn't ideal but for some of us it's the only thing we can get our hands on. easy choice...

[wdrzal]

ethyle mercaptan is what is added to give it that "rotten egg" smell. walt

[Stewie007]

*shrugs* It doesn't cost much to go to an AC shop to have it charged by a professional. They don't charge hundreds of dollars to recharge a window AC unit, do they? :p:

Tis why, even if I can't get 404a myself, I'm still not using propane.

[Russell_hq]

well, when I can go into the hardware store and buy a can of propane for £7 that will work in a system I build, and will allow me to tinker with the charge and do 5-10 recharges then I will pick that.

Most of us on here are amateur hobbiests and like to tinker with our creations, so taking a system to get a topup every time we want to change something is going to be expensive.

Although once I want to finalise my system then I would take it to an AC shop and get one last charge ;)

[pythagoras]

Maybe we should look at getting shut-off valves in these systems, so that we can pump them down a save the refrigerent when we make changes.

Regards

John.

[Stewie007]

A bit more complex than just using isolation or cut off valves.

But anyways, I intend on getting R404a myself; a couple pounds of it. Plus I'm thinking on designing a reclaim system. I'll even ASME certify it.

[gkiing]

A bit more complex than just using isolation or cut off valves.

But anyways, I intend on getting R404a myself; a couple pounds of it. Plus I'm thinking on designing a reclaim system. I'll even ASME certify it.

Hey, if you're looking for a good reclaim system, just buy a 30lb recovery tank, stick it in an igloo cooler, fill the cooler with dry ice or a ln2 bath, connect it to whatever needs recovering and wham.. its all in the tank :D

[expansionvalve]

Fuel propane not something I would use.
Hygroscopic oils>moisture>oil break down>over time premature system failure.

[Stewie007]

:) Again why I favor pure refrigerant :)

[Russell_hq]

Look guys, u can diss the propane that we use, but the fact of the matter is that its cheap, and works well which is perfect for us hobbiests

[Stewie007]

It all depends on what you want. If you like to tinker, using the most pure propane you can find is fine.

But if you like to engineer something for longevity without tinkering, then any refrigerant won't be a cost issue. Either that, or you just use R134a, it aint expensive.

[gkiing]

r22 and r134a are dirt cheap here.. like 65$ for 30lb of 22 and around 100 or so for 134a

what is really expensive though, it getting rid of contaiminated refrigerant that's been reclaimed...

[Stewie007]

Expensive? There are places that'll BUY your used refrigerant. :p:

[Russell_hq]

yeah thats true, but for the beginner in this game, as most of us are then propane is the business. R134a is really just a waste of time :p:

Propane is a refrigerant in its own right, R290. It has its merits but not here, R507 is the top dog when it comes to these systems.

[wdrzal]

Maybe we should look at getting shut-off valves in these systems, so that we can pump them down a save the refrigerent when we make changes.

Regards

John.
It is that simple, the system compressor can be used to pump all the refrigerant into condensor so cap tube can be moded. no expensive recovery equiptment is needed. walt

[expansionvalve]

Withe proper system maintainence and the correct refrigerant for the compressor in question contamination isn't an issue. System cleanliness is they key and the introduction of moisture is baaaaaaaaad!

how many of you guys here use a vac guage or torr guage when evacuating and what level of vac do you pull?

[Stewie007]

For this type of system? You'll need to pull under 200 microns to get it to hold. That's .2mm of HG

Edit: A note for walt's benefit; I don't care how ya do it, just get it down there. :)

[Russell_hq]

Yup, i think alot of us here know what is needed to do the job but some of us dont have access to the tools/refrigerants/cash required so we try and improvise. Heck i've seen some guy build a system without even a set of gauges and he was happy. So what we do is try and improvise and find other ways of doing it. I personally think that two salvaged compressors from old fridges at a cost of practically nothing and hooking them up as a vacuum pump and let them run a few hours sure beats buying a vac pump and a vacuum micron gauge to make sure you get 200 microns at a cost of £300 for the hobbiest. Though for the real enthusiast then what you say is the way to go, but its an expensive road compared to the alternative.

[kayl]

Yup, i think alot of us here know what is needed to do the job but some of us dont have access to the tools/refrigerants/cash required so we try and improvise. Heck i've seen some guy build a system without even a set of gauges and he was happy. So what we do is try and improvise and find other ways of doing it. I personally think that two salvaged compressors from old fridges at a cost of practically nothing and hooking them up as a vacuum pump and let them run a few hours sure beats buying a vac pump and a vacuum micron gauge to make sure you get 200 microns at a cost of £300 for the hobbiest. Though for the real enthusiast then what you say is the way to go, but its an expensive road compared to the alternative.


im with ya on this russell


Withe proper system maintainence and the correct refrigerant for the compressor in question contamination isn't an issue. System cleanliness is they key and the introduction of moisture is baaaaaaaaad!

how many of you guys here use a vac guage or torr guage when evacuating and what level of vac do you pull?

going getto style all the way is the biggest challenge, i like the challenge.
an old airondition as a vacuum pump, and the worst choice of refrigerants to make a cascade.
bb propane first stage and carbon dioxide stage 2.
and these are the temps with no-load.

-66c now that is alot colder than other cascades i have seen using r507 first stage.
so its not always the gas ya using, its more the design and the way ya do things.
in my country ya need a license to get refrigeration, so its simply not possible to get it unless, ya steal it, pay some one $60 an hour plus the gas.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28111&stc=1

[wdrzal]

seems to me both you guys shelled out cash to buy expensive meters!!! :D I would take a good pump over a fancy meter anyday, guess I'm not all Hollywood. :D

[expansionvalve]

expensive meters? nah, compulsory tools of the trade in my eyes :D

[wdrzal]

A vacuum pump isn't

[expansionvalve]

Well without a pump the guage is useless, they go together hand in hand.

[gkiing]

When I bought a good pump I bought a micron gauge to go with, the micron gauge reads from atmosphere to 15 microns in a digital lcd, think it's made by CPS.

[kayl]

A vacuum pump isn't

depends of where ya from.
a vacuum pumpffor me is over 500 in australia, and the mocro meter at local refrigeration shop was ~$400.
unless i get it from the us its out of the question for me, simply not worth the $$.
this is the only reason why i dont use them.

[wdrzal]

depends of where ya from.
a vacuum pumpffor me is over 500 in australia, and the mocro meter at local refrigeration shop was ~$400.
unless i get it from the us its out of the question for me, simply not worth the $$.
this is the only reason why i dont use them.

I Hardly buy a tool any more thats not from ebay. I know refrigeration tools are expensive. You can get new stuff at 1/2 the cost of even wholesale. I paid $130.00 for a yellow jacket micron gauge that was brand new.they sell for $270.00 at most places.Their is a tif electronic sightglass on there now with a BIN of $100.00 they normaly sell for 199.00 just watch for good deals.

[Stewie007]

Ebay's pretty worth it for some of this stuff. As long as you buy carefully, you'll get something that'll work like a charm.

[gkiing]

The thing that usually kills you is the shipping.. alot of sellers charge s&h far above actual costs and make a profit on it. Especially cross border shipping. Other than that theres some pretty good deals. I got my cps micron gauge off ebay for $132 i believe.

[Stewie007]

I dunno about you, but I always bargain with them. "I'll bid on it if you can get better shipping." etc etc.

Usually, they end up to be pretty open to suggestion. One guy wanted to ship UPS. 30 bucks. But the item fit in a USPS Flat Rate Priority... 7.70 :)

[Thrilla]

I was told propane is orderless, they added stuff in there so it smells and when it leaks you'll know.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

hehe, man you guys really don't think about things much some times, I use 3 f/ds in series attached to a simple small compressor, that just sites there taking propane and circulating it, with a small amount of cap tube to cool the motor, by the time it is don running the "scenting" Agent is removed and the stuff is dry as a bone in the desert. I process one bottle per three F/Ds then do every thing in my power to recover the cleaned and dried R-290.

I devised this system long ago to dry air for use in a Nitrogen laser project, but when I started to play with refrigeration it just made sense that if it works to scrub one gas it will do it to another.

[berkut]

A good thermometer costs ~200 euro in poland afaik. A cheap ass, tottaly low end vacuum pump costs 800euro when i last checked...

I NEVER, NEVER had any problems with brenzomatic propane. Just used the right filters (big) and mineral oil.

[godmod]

i think PROPANE IS R290.

just take care of the quality:

[Unknown_road]

godmod, read the first post!!

[godmod]

isnt what wrdzl says just, that r290 is pure propane, nearly without any other additions?! that would mean that is you buy propane 3.5 you'd have r290 ..
if i misunderstood that sorry!
btw. i read the first post.

[Unknown_road]

isnt what wrdzl says just, that r290 is pure propane, nearly without any other additions?! that would mean that is you buy propane 3.5 you'd have r290 ..
if i misunderstood that sorry!
btw. i read the first post.

well that is true but that is not what wdrzal ment. When you use fuel propane it contains lots more substances then just the propane itself. In every day live what we call propane is fuel propane.

[godmod]

oh, i didnt know that. so the "propane for technical use" is "fuel propane" and the "propane 3.5" (99.95% cleanness...) is real propane?
that would be what i ment with "depends on the qualitiy"