So how hard IS it?

[charlie]

For years I've kinda steered clear of the "black magic" phase change section, lol... too scary ;)
Well it seems everyone is having WAY too much fun toying with these things... I've done SOME reading... and am curious.
To build a single stage -50C loaded rig, maybe r410 or something...

HOW

1)dangerous (blowing something up=divorce)
2)difficult
3)expensive
4)fun
5)time consuming

is it???

Has anyone put together a recipe, like:

1 x Danfoss XYZ8373AB compressor
8 feet copper 1/4" soft tubing
16 feet capillary tube
ABC aluminum condensor
1 Chilly1 evap KIT
etc, etc.....

Maybe a set of blueprints?? A build manual of sorts??

and a tool kit?

A torch
set of gauges
tubing bender/flare tool
etc, etc....

Now don't give me too much of a hard time because i KNOW most of this can be found in SEARCH mode, but if I do that, I'll get a headache and forget what Iw as looking for ;)

thx!!

C

[afireinside]

dangerous? Nope unless you do something stupid
hard? So far this doesent seem to hard... This electrical stuff is throwing me for a loop but luckly I have you guys to help :D
expensive? I think I have like ~500 into it so far :stick: tools suck!
fun? I'm not having very much fun holding a torch on 2 pipes but I'm assuming it will get alot better when I see a -xxC reading :D
time consuming? Took me about an hour to put almost everything together after practicing brazing a bit...

I think Chilly1 sells complete put it together your self kits but I'm not sure...

[alexio]

It isn't hard if you have the right tools I think :stick:


I'm sorry to say but can't even a mod make a normal topic title from wich one understands what the thread is about?

Getting peoples interest bij putting a weird titel above a topic is not a good thing, I see this being done by allot of respected Xs members and mods and I think it is wrong to use your username and a weird title to attract people to read your topic.

Sorry for interrupting your thread, I could have pm'ed you or have opened a thread about this subject but I thought this was better.

Are there actually any rules regarding opening a new topic, I mean written down?

[afireinside]

I dont see what your problem with it is? He is asking how hard it is in the phasechange section... Anyone with at least half a brain would assume that its about how hard PHASECHANGE is since it IS in that section and all...

[charlie]

It isn't hard if you have the right tools I think :stick:


I'm sorry to say but can't even a mod make a normal topic title from wich one understands what the thread is about?

Getting peoples interest bij putting a weird titel above a topic is not a good thing, I see this being done by allot of respected Xs members and mods and I think it is wrong to use your username and a weird title to attract people to read your topic.

Sorry for interrupting your thread, I could have pm'ed you or have opened a thread about this subject but I thought this was better.

Are there actually any rules regarding opening a new topic, I mean written down?

wow! Bad day, huh?
So you believe it would have made a difference if I wrote:

So how hard IS it to build phase change cooler?

C

[Tyrou]

1)dangerous (blowing something up=divorce)
> Not dangerous if you work properly

2)difficult
> Brazing, is for me the worst, but once you know how to do it, it's quite easy to learn everything else (to build a single stage ;))

3)expensive
> If you work with brand new parts, you can make a really powerful direct die for less that $500, if you go for used parts or home made stuff, you can go below $200

4)fun
> Very fun, in my eyes, as everything that you make by yourself, yI enjoy the builiding process more than the final use :D

5)time consuming
> If you're reasonable, once it's finished, it won't take more time than a watercooling, if you're not, you'll start building a new unit to cool your gpu :D

If you want -50c loaded, i'd recommend you to buy something like that :
- a 1/2HP compressor or more
- a good condensor with fan (10"x10" should be enough)
- a TXV for R404 or R507 with a low temp range (Danfoss TS2 for example) or a CPEV
- a flexible, full metal, hose, 20" long or more, 1/2" diameter
- a Chilly1 evap with his perfect enclosure, it will save you much time
- a dryer
- two access valves to fill the system and check the pressures

you also can add a receiver or a suction line accumulator to enhance the system's volume, but i'm not sure that's useful on such a system

Regarding the tools, you need :
- a good torch, at least a MAPP one, but if you have access to an oxy/acetylen one, go for it
- a pipe cutter
- a pipe bender
- a drill
- some brazing rods
- a set of gauges
- a vacuum pump

Have a nice work :)

[alexio]

wow! Bad day, huh?

I'm sorry if I make you think I was angry or something, I just said what I was thinking.

So you believe it would have made a difference if I wrote:

So how hard IS it to build phase change cooler?
C

No, but it would have if you had wrote: "So how hard IS it to build a single-stage for a newbie?". :p:

[Tyrou]

that's really posting for nothing, when I read the thread's title, i thank "how had is it to make something in phase change", it's clear...

[gclg2000]

1) Go to sears, buy there $69 window A/C unit. A 5200 BTU LG rotary R22 rotary is inside w/ a plenty big condensor, mount, housing, capacitor and wiring, on/off button. Can't beat this deal.
2) Get a can of sus100 / 150 oil and change the oil out.
3) Get the needed tools. (mainly a torch)
4) Get an evap block made or purchase one from chilly (he can include cap tube)
5) Get a drier ($10)
6) Get A/C Shop to pull it down and charge it w/ 404.
7) Viola
*) Caution this is my :2cents:

[REDKEN]

Maybe you have already read this but I'll post it anyways. Here (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34034) are a couple of good build manuals

[Nugz]

robinair 15300 $250
www.rparts.com
yellow Jackets gages $75
Captube .026 & .031 20-30$
Compressor blah blah blah

I tryed making one or 2 and yeah it was -50c load but so dam big it sucked. Cause we all want something that looks like a Vapochill or Mach. Unless it a cascade.

So what did i do? PM chilly1.
Should have done it in the first place. would have saved me some cash and time and swollen knees lol.

Just PM chilly1 for all your phase change needs. You can get -40c or so loaded for under $500 shiped. Dont mess with it your self. well i guess ya can but go cascade not just single DD. Theres to many options for single DD that is cheaper than doing it your self and will look alot better.

I have spent about $700-$800 in parts and not running any phasechange till i spend another $400+ on a unit from chilly1. Guess i'm just a dumb @ss and cant make one thats sooo easy to do. well i did but it's ugly and to big and loud. (7500btu compressor).

Anyways
Peace Nugz

[pythagoras]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this thread or thread title, and thats not because Charlie is a mod. Cant speak for the rest of the site, but this forum is about all the people who love this section helping out some one who wants to join in the fun.

I would like to meet the person who was born knowing all about this! Yes he could have used search, but which is more efficient? Using search with not a clue what you are really searching for, or asking the guys here for advice, which could mean us pointing him the right and relevant threads?

When someone asks for help here, they are only troubling the people who are willing to answer anyway, so how does that inconvinience the people who dont?

If we start answering all help requests with "use the search function" or "google is your friend" how many members do you think we would have left?

Oh and Charlie you noob :D www.howhardwouldbuildingaphasechangesystembe.com :D

Regards

John.

[gclg2000]

yeah wow just noticed what he said...alexio that was pretty :banana:

I immediately understood what he was asking before i even opened the thread.

So i guess you proved what?

[stockhatch]

I highly recommend saving yourself some hassle and just buying a chilly1 kit. That way you have the fun of putting it together and gaining brazing experience. At the same time, you avoid searching for a correctly sized compressor and condenser, figuring out a way to mount an evap, and looking for a flexible suction. If I build another small DD, I will just get the parts from Chilly1 to begin with.

The hardest thing for me by far is getting the mounting figured out. It really is a PITA to get everything insulated and its tough to tell when you have good contact. A well planned, easily implemented mounting design such as chilly1's will save you ALOT of headache. OTOH, if its a benching, table top rig, it shouldnt be too much trouble no matter how you approach it.

Having said all that...its FUUUN!! :D Its been more fun for me than overclocking. Of course Ive always had more fun physically modifying stuff anyways. Take the plunge you wont regret it. Even if youre like me and the thing just sits in the corner until you convince yourself to implement it, you will have a blast building it.

[Eradicator]

1) It not dangerous at all, as long as you use common sense, dont get in a hurry and be safety conscious.
2) Most difficult part of a single evap DD setup is the brazing and tweaking, and honestly brazing is super easy once you have done a little of it, and the right tools help as well..
3) The most expensive part will be the tools, most the actual parts of the cooler can be found for little to nothing, if you just search in the right places.. The evap and possibly return line will cost if you chose not to make your own.. (Just for reference, the unit that cools my cpu cost me ~$50 including insulation and the one cooling my gpu was around $30) But of course this will all depend on what you can get your hands on for free/cheap :D
4) Fun... Its not for everyone, but if you like building things, and then admiring the end results, as well as enjoy a little challenge, man your gonna love it, its very, very addicting..
5) Honestly the most time consuming part is the researching, and reading.. Spend plenty of time doing your homework, understanding how phase change works, analyzing other peoples projects/designs and learn from there mistakes.. The actual build time will vary on your brazing skills as well as your ability to be creative when it comes to insulating and mounting.. Once you have all this done a single evap unit can be built in one day start to finish, easily...

Good luck if you decide to take the plunge, your definitly in the right place if you are in the need of help or advice..

[hatemi]

IMHO its much better and more satisfactory to build it yourself than get a premade system. And I have a guess that you wont be using it for 24/7 rig anyhow so no need for cases or other that crap the comercial units have:D Just find yourself a nice rotary compressor(at least 5200BTU/h) and you should have a nice benching rig half way ready. If you can find 9000BTU/h unit then you can expect -50c holding temps. Baker18 has made some systems that go even lower than that from ~9000BTU/h rotaries.

[charlie]

Ok, so if I can get a 10,000-15,000 BTU window air unit for like <$100, I can make it into a DD unit with a chilly1 evap??

C

[blinky]

Ok, so if I can get a 10,000-15,000 BTU window air unit for like <$100, I can make it into a DD unit with a chilly1 evap??

Cfor as single stage a 5200btu unit would be just fine ;)

[FUGGER]

Yep, converting a ac unit or small freezer is possible.

Alexio, That was a very poor decision to lash out at Charlie like that.

[DGeNeRaT3]

Yes charlie i too am just getting to know the ins and outs of phasechange and going to start my first build but getting all the parts to start out can be a pain but in no way should be a deterent. The main problem i had was i really to be honest have no interest in becomming a refridgeration expert and i would never consider it even as a possable area of emplyment it's just not my bag. HOWEVER i love overclocking and HATE not being able to make my own xtreme coolers and have to send something to Chilly1 each time i want something changed/modified. Just the feeling of knowing that you can build your own phasechange rig even if not interested in refridgeration for any other application is definatley a satisfying feeling. What i did was went a visited a HVAC instucter at a local college and asked him if i could buy his best books so i could learn on my own by reading...well i got two books as thick as the bible and have been reading them like crazy and they have helped a great deal. My build is going to take me a long time as i really want to build it all by myself including making my own condensor so i can learn as much as possable. sorry for rambling on but just wanted to share my thoughts.

DGeNeRaT3

[kayl]

Ok, so if I can get a 10,000-15,000 BTU window air unit for like <$100, I can make it into a DD unit with a chilly1 evap??

C

charlie that is the first good example i have read :stick:
the bigger the compressor the better.
if ya get a 10k to 15k rotary you will be on fire.
get your self a $20 condenser of chilly1, and a 120mm ac fan.
then chilly suction line, capillary line about 92" 0.028" (which is recommended by chilly as starting point, works for me) and a few bullet driers.


tools.
buy a map gas torch and gauges and a pipe cutter and 15% solder.
and find ya a source of refrigerant. im sure there is someone near ya that can help out.
with a good size compressor ya bound to get -50c load. with ease.
why make it hard for yaself.

and well the rest is up to you.


by the way, i must warn ya charlie, once you start, you know you wont stop.
ps if ya can get r402 instead of r410 little easier to use and more capacity. :toast:

[berkut]

And this is how you end up in the end:

http://www.cincinnati.com/freetime/movies/mcgurk/img/batman_rev_200x311.jpg

This is like riding a bibycle. Learning how to do it is the hardest part, everything after it is fun and joy.

[gclg2000]

Get ready for the expensive vaccum pump too. I've yet to buy one, i hate to say it, i've just been leaching on my buddies for the bulids i've been doing. :(

[hatemi]

Get two fridge compressors and connect them in series and you have a ghetto vacume pump for free and if one compressor fails it wont matter since you can get those from practically everywhere. The oil travels from first compressor to the second but just ad some oil to the first every once in a while and use it until it stops working;) Or you want to go the Hi-Fi route;) Decent vacume pumps are just too darn expensive to buy if your a student or have limited funds. But with a real refrigeration vacume pump the whole process would be much faster and you would surely get all the unwanted and nasty noncondensables and moisture out of the sytem. That said I have never encountered any moisture problems with my ghetto pump:D

[kayl]

Get ready for the expensive vaccum pump too. I've yet to buy one, i hate to say it, i've just been leaching on my buddies for the bulids i've been doing. :(

old airconditioner compressors works fine.for a single can get by. maybe invest in a dual stage vacuum pump when ya go cascade.

my getto vacuum pump cuts the cake, 2 x 1/2Hp compressors in series 29Hg easy


edit hatermi ya beat me to it (we posted at the same time) :stick:

[gclg2000]

no..no..NO... i will not listen..lol

[LostInSpace278]

Watch e-bay for vaccum pumps. I lucked out and found almost brand new robinair 15500 2 stage vacuum for $125. It was bought (along with several others) at a scratch and dent sale. Only thing wrong with it, is the plastic around one of the screws holding the handle was broke.

[berkut]

by flushing the system a few times with refigerant and vacuuming it we can get rid of MOST of the humidity and other gases... a vacuum pump is not the most expensive part

tools are... a flare tool, swedge, pipe cutter, torch

skill is priceless

[wdrzal]

old airconditioner compressors works fine.for a single can get by. maybe invest in a dual stage vacuum pump when ya go cascade.

my getto vacuum pump cuts the cake, 2 x 1/2Hp compressors in series 29Hg easy


edit hatermi ya beat me to it (we posted at the same time) :stick:

water boils at 77 degrees f at 29.0 hg . the actual vacuum in system will not be that low.
So you are accomplishing no dehydration at that vacuum level. If you are using refrigeration compressors for dehydration you are kidding yourself. Walt

[Russell_hq]

I gotta agree with kayl, 2 in series with compresson raios of 10:1 will get you down to about 29.64"Hg where water will boil at 7ºC. You'd be surprised how well 2 compressors in series work :D

Plus LBP compressors work better, better volumetric efficiency

[wdrzal]

how exactly did your read 29.64 hg?

[Russell_hq]

good charts ;)

[wdrzal]

that what I figured,just a conveint number, so you posted it as true. so you can not confirm how low a vacuum reading 2 pumps acheives!now explain what compression ratio has do do with ultmate vacuum? Walt

[Russell_hq]

Well, if im at 29.64"Hg and I compress it with a ratio of 10:1 (not unreasonable for a hermetic), this will bring pressure up to 26.96"Hg now compress it again at 10:1 then this will take me up to around 1 atm, just enough to blow out the end of the pipe.

[wdrzal]

If it were that easy, the reason refrigeration compressors will not pull a deep vacuum is because the mechanical seal of the moving parts (valves,pistons ,ect)is not good enough to produce a deep vacuum. that why deep vacuum pumps are filled with oil.the oil level must be suffucuent as to create a seal between the rotating parts wereas air can not be draw past them.. walt

[Russell_hq]

Fair enough, but have you tried building one and testing it on one of these systems. I have and it work a treat :)

[wdrzal]

unless you have micron gauge, you are guessing at what vacuum levels you have acheived,your manifold gauge is just not that accurate. Walt

[Russell_hq]

I didn't need to read the pessure.

I had problems with my cap tube blocking, so i triple evaced with 1 compressor and no joy, still blocked.

I got ahold of another and tried again. No ice block afterwards. I think thats a good idicator :D

[mushk1n]

Hi, im lookin @ same kinda thing, what kinda performance would i got from a 7500btu? good enough or not?

[Russell_hq]

I was told once that smaller compressors have better seals, so will take longer but a better end product.

I used 2 compressors I pulled out of fridges, they were nothing special, 1/5? 1/8 maybe

[gkiing]

1)dangerous (blowing something up=divorce)
can be, not as much of a concern with single stages but improperly built cascades can be bombs

2)difficult
at first, but it gets easier as you go along, learning the basics is probably the hard part. Unless you get into picky commercial setups (unlike this pc cooling) its pretty easy.

3)expensive
definatly. You budget a project out for $300 and it ends up costing $1800. Good tools are expensive, but I would advise to always get the best; they won't break. However, you can go the ghetto route and get cold for only a few $$$, usually with a few downsides. Safety devices are expensive too..

4)fun
fun once you get going, and especially when you realize that making things cold isin't "black magic", but just science. Brazing is fun too (well i find it interesting.. even relaxing.. lol)

5)time consuming
can be, can not be. The quality of your work will depend on how much time you put into it. Design is also very important here, mistakes in design lead to big problems in implementation

but overall, its fun, and you should have a go! get outfitted with some gauges, a good vacuum pump (i recommend yellow jacket, JB, robinair in that order for pumps), maybe a flaring/swaging set, a mapp torch, and off ya go!

edit: Indeed berkut, skill is the best tool of all :)

[GunnerMan]

Is it absolutley nesccisary to have a suction pump? Or does it just keep water etc out?

[kayl]

I gotta agree with kayl, 2 in series with compresson raios of 10:1 will get you down to about 29.64"Hg where water will boil at 7ºC. You'd be surprised how well 2 compressors in series work :D

Plus LBP compressors work better, better volumetric efficiency

thaxs, russell.
and when you start sucking oil out of the system ya know its at a deep vacuum.

[wdrzal]

Is it absolutley nesccisary to have a suction pump? Or does it just keep water etc out?

water at temps below 32 degrees is not a good thing :D :D :D I have been seeing 1.2 cfm pumps on ebay for around $100.00,add a manifold set,stick thermometer, tubing cutter and a swage tool and a torch for the basics and you can assembly a system and get it running.

[GunnerMan]

Yes, ok well I have most of the tools but for the brazzing I will take it to the local welder to do it for me. Time to save for that damn pump lol

[wdrzal]

Yes, ok well I have most of the tools but for the brazzing I will take it to the local welder to do it for me. Time to save for that damn pump lol

If you want to play with this stuff you need to learn how to braze,its not that hard and a mapp gas torch can be had for 25 to 40 bucks.You will find out in the future that the skills you aquire doing a project like this are more important than the end result. Walt

[gkiing]

yeah, and the welder likely won't do a proper job. Just my 2 cents, it's not welding but brazing anyway.. a little different.

Brazing is easy, you just need a MAPP torch and some cheap rods.